Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psifon 03-11-06, 02:46 PM	I am working on a gish (fighter/wizard/ek/spellsword) I don't know my stats yet, but I am trying to decide on good mo-jo to lay down with my combat style. Here are my thoughts so far, please comment/add as much as possible: Option 1: My current favorite - The the massive damage/chargetastic build: Preferred Weapon: Greatsword Power Attack (& Cleave) Powerful Charge Leap Attack Improved Sunder Combat Brute The basic shtick here is: Make yourself large (enlarge person/polymorph), cast wraithform, and charge in, while power attacking for all you're worth. Wraithform improves your hit chances, Enlarge Person increases your Greatsword to 3d6, while Powerful charge adds another 2d6 to your charge attack. Leap attack gives you 3X your BAB in additional damage, and combat brute extends this benefit into the second round after you charge. I think that this is a pretty good shtick, but it is a bit more circumstantial than I would like, and given my poor HP's I want to make sure that I survive to round two. This means casting defensive buffs in combat (such as mirror image), which is a bit too much spellcasting for my blood. Option 2: Triptastic/Battlefield controll Gish: Preferred Weapon: Spiked Chain EWP: Spiked Chain Combat Expertise Improved Trip This build is nice since it's not so feet intensive. The Big problem here is that it has a real problem with MAD. You need a good INT, STR and DEX to pull this off, and frankly I would rather put my third good stat into CON and go for the HP. Option 3: Two Weapon Gish: Preferred Weapon: Short Sword Two Weapon Fighting Improved Two Weapon Fighting Arcane Strike This build is again fairly stat-intensive, With this one you are simply burning spells for damage. A good strategy, but I think I can have more fun with my spells than that. Also, you have a REALLY hard time casting, since you can't free up a hand to cast spells. I suppose that gloves of storing would solve this problem, but that's not till later levels. Option 4: Second rank Gish Preferred Weapon: Longaxe (Complete Adventurer) EWP: Longaxe Power Attack Cleave Precise Strike (Eberron) This build has a lot of nice things going for it. You get the 3d6 damage when you are large. Your reach extends to 20' when you are large and power attacking (which will be often). Precise strike lets you hide behind the party meat sheild and still attack without penalty. You can now either take combat reflexes (if you have the dex for it) for extra AoO goodness, or you can tag on the chargetastic benefits depicted in option 1. Of course this is getting pretty feat intensive, but it doesn't rely on multiple ability scores much. OK, so these are my ideas so far. Does anyone have any good ideas to add? Any coments/critiques? Figure 3-5 feats is about all you can sqeeze into a good gish build (saving the rest for metamagic etc.) Final note: So far, all of these builds rely only lightly on spells. wraithstrike and Enlarge Person being the most obvious. If there are any other good spell/feat combinations that anyone would suggest, I would be much obliged.
Kessalin Talira 03-11-06, 05:09 PM	I think Leap Attack with a greatsword gives a 4:1 return on damage, since it adds 100% of the normal bonus damage from PA on a leap. Normal bonus damage is 2 points per BAB with a two-handed weapon.
MechaboyDos 03-11-06, 05:16 PM	Remember the D&D multiplication rules; whenever you have stacking multipliers, you decrease one by 1 point and then add the two together to get your new multiplier. So in the case of Leap Attack with a two-handed weapon, 2*2 becomes 2+(2-1) = x3. I prefer the two-handed Greatsword fighting style. Wraithstrike/Power Attack/Arcane Strike gives you incredible damage output in melee, and you can augment that even further with other things. TWF is too feat and stat intensive, and battlefield control is generally handled better by either a dedicated fighter or by a straight Wizard/Sorc with the right spells. Second rank fighter works as well since you won't have quite as many HP as a straight figther, but you can also buff yourself up and increase your durability that way.
Kessalin Talira 03-11-06, 05:40 PM	It's not a multiplier any more. With the errata to Complete Adventurer (and similar errata to Improved and Supreme PA from Frenzied Berserker), it adds 100% of the normal bonus damage from PA. 100% of 2:1 is 2:1, therefore 4:1. Same with Supreme PA, and combining them all gives 6:1.
MechaboyDos 03-11-06, 06:37 PM	Well, that's interesting... I guess they're trying to make the math a little easier, heh.
Sang-Drax 03-11-06, 06:59 PM	Maybe you could also wield a falchion instead of a greatsword. With the Dolorous Blow spell, that means a 15-20 crit range where a threat is always a crit.
Psifon 03-11-06, 08:00 PM	Dolorous blow is a good spell, but I would need to take Improved Critical to get the full benefit of it, since it doesn't stack with Keen. OK, here is the build I am considering: Lvl Class & Level 1 Fighter 1 Power Attack, Cleave, Powerful Charge 2 Wizard 1 Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll 3 Wizard 2 Practiced Spellcaster 4 Wizard 3 5 Wizard 4 6 Wizard 5 Quicken Spell, Extend Spell 7 Spellsword 1 Ignore Spell Failure 10% 8 Eldritch Knight 1 EWP: Longaxe 9 Eldritch Knight 2 Leap Attack 10 Eldritch Knight 3 11 Eldritch Knight 4 12 Eldritch Knight 5 Precise Swing 13 Eldritch Knight 6 14 Eldritch Knight 7 15 Eldritch Knight 8 Persistent Spell 16 Eldritch Knight 9 17 Eldritch Knight 10 18 Spellsword 2 Improved Sunder, Combat Brute 19 Spellsword 3 Ignore Spell Failure 15% 20 Wizard 6 The basic shtick is chargetastic. So he makes himself large and carges. This gives him 5d6 on a charge, and 3x (or 4x) his BAB in PA. A good massive damage trick that he should be able to do several times per day. The Longaxe lets him power attack with a leap attack and either attack with 10' reach or 20' reach. When he is not using this trick, or when his defenses are low, his reach will allow him to take cover behind the party tank, with no cover bonus thanks to the Precise Swing feat. At later levels, he can buy/cast magic that buffs his dex, and then cast Heroics to obtain combat reflexes, basically turning spells into feats. At very high levels he can make the feats as well as wraithstrike persistant. What I had to give up for all of this from my origional concept are the feats Steady Concentration (take 10 on all conc. checks) and Arcane Strike. These are good feats, but something had to give. what do you guys think so far?
Sang-Drax 03-11-06, 08:20 PM	Dolorous blow is a good spell, but I would need to take Improved Critical to get the full benefit of it, since it doesn't stack with Keen. Nor does it stack with Improved Critical, nor does Improved Critical stack with Keen Edge. You'd never make it to more than 15-20 threat range anyway. I must remind you that Dolorous Blow itself doubles the threat range already, just like keen edge.
Psifon 03-11-06, 08:41 PM	Ah, I missed that part. Thanks.
Endarire 03-11-06, 08:44 PM	What about starting as a wizard for Collegiate Wizard? -EE
Endar45 03-11-06, 10:15 PM	You're certainly correct that charge builds are less flexible than some others. I've only recently started playing combat clerics, gish, and dex-based fighters (I previously favored full-progression spellcasters with a magic-based attack focus), and I've only experienced one or two sets of combat-tactic feats. That said, from what I've seen in both my experiences and from those of other players, I tend to lean towards a damage-pumping feat set and let magic assist with utility (crowd control, etc.) and defense.
nittanytbone 03-12-06, 03:10 PM	It sounds like you plan on relying on very few spells (enlarge person, wraithstrike, maybe Truestrike to help with power attacks on hard targets) and want to be more warrior than caster, so you might be able to get away with Sorcerer instead of Wizard. Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6 is a decent lead in to your PrCs and gives many more spells per day to burn with Arcane Strike or in combat. Two paladin levels gives you cha to all saves, lay on hands, all paladin spells on your spell list (use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds), and much better HP, all of which increase durability. You'll want 14 str (6), 12 dex (4), 14 con (6), 10 int (2), 8 wis (0), 16 cha (10) if possible, which is your 28 point buy stat array. The synergy between paladin and sorcerer for cha is quite nice IMHO, and you can have a good social character by level 3 or 4 (5 ranks in know nobility, 5 ranks in sense motive, 5 ranks in bluff, 5 ranks in diplomacy, and +3 cha = +14 to diplomacy checks). On the downside you have to be LG.
Psifon 03-12-06, 03:37 PM	No, I am pretty clear that I don't want to go the Pal/sorc route. I actually plan to be a lot more versitile than I am indicating here. At low levels this will be limited, but no so much at higher levels.
Saion2014 03-12-06, 07:28 PM	Doubled Post
SpartanMD 03-13-06, 11:00 AM	Dolorous blow is a good spell, but I would need to take Improved Critical to get the full benefit of it, since it doesn't stack with Keen. OK, here is the build I am considering: Lvl Class & Level 1 Fighter 1 Power Attack, Cleave, Powerful Charge 2 Wizard 1 Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll 3 Wizard 2 Practiced Spellcaster 4 Wizard 3 5 Wizard 4 6 Wizard 5 Quicken Spell, Extend Spell 7 Spellsword 1 Ignore Spell Failure 10% 8 Eldritch Knight 1 EWP: Longaxe 9 Eldritch Knight 2 Leap Attack 10 Eldritch Knight 3 11 Eldritch Knight 4 12 Eldritch Knight 5 Precise Swing 13 Eldritch Knight 6 14 Eldritch Knight 7 15 Eldritch Knight 8 Persistent Spell 16 Eldritch Knight 9 17 Eldritch Knight 10 18 Spellsword 2 Improved Sunder, Combat Brute 19 Spellsword 3 Ignore Spell Failure 15% 20 Wizard 6 ? Consider going ftr1/wiz6 then SS. Why wait a level to get into SS? You don't lose a BAB, and get +1 all of your saves for just losing a mere hp. Besides, you took that last level of Wizard at 20th level.... :cool:
DDogwood 03-13-06, 11:17 AM	Don't forget the Archery build. Enlarge Person bumps your damage from a Longbow from 1d8+Str to 2d6+Str. Although this isn't as much damage as Power Attack, you will be able to get more Full Attack actions, and you don't have to put yourself into direct danger as often. It also only requires an investment of 2 feats: Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. If you're playing an elf, it might be worth taking 2 levels of Arcane Archer to get Imbue Arrow, although I am not sold on it. A gish should have enough mobility spells to stay at a distance, as well, eliminating the main weakness of archery.
Slyver 03-13-06, 01:29 PM	Your idea looks good, and seems like you have a good idea what to do with spells and such, but the build needs a little adjustment. First, you don't qualify for spellsword the way you are doing it. Second, you are using combat brute and improved sunder. While not bad feats, my guess is those aren't the feats you're looking for. They are not overly synergisitic with the build. I believe you want improved bullrush and shock trooper. Third, the levels at which you are taking feats are not optimal. Fourth, powerful charge is great at level 1, but quickly becomes a crap feat, I recommend dropping it. Longaxe is a decent weapon, but I question if it is worth a feat for this build. You already have reach with enlarge person. The extra reach gained may not be worth it. You also can't attack adjacent foes in the same round as reach foes and vis versa. That annoys me. Cuts out on a lot of AoO potential, which is the best reason to have reach. I question the necessity of precise swing. This feat is subject to how your DM plays. Does he really calculate a lot of cover? If so then it is probably worth it, if it is only occasionally it probably isn't. So, with some mods it looks like this: Keep in mind you want all combat feats asap if you are playing from early levels. This is where your power lies. Race: Human Weapon: Greatsword or Falchion Fighter 1/Wiz 6/Spellsword 3/EK 10 1 Power attack, Cleave, Improved bullrush 2 Scribe scroll 3 Practiced spellcaster 6 Extend spell, Quicken spell 9 Shock trooper, Leap attack 11 Combat reflexes (or precise swing) 12 Arcane strike 15 Persistent spell 18 open These minor modifications should substantially increase your power throughtout the entire build. Slyver
Psifon 03-13-06, 02:10 PM	thanks for the great input. I will break my responses down by who posted them. Consider going ftr1/wiz6 then SS. Why wait a level to get into SS? You don't lose a BAB, and get +1 all of your saves for just losing a mere hp. Besides, you took that last level of Wizard at 20th level.... :cool: Actually I MUST wait to take that first level os SS, as Slyver pointed out. I will probably swich it with my first level of EK though, since this nets me a feat earlier on. Don't forget the Archery build. Enlarge Person bumps your damage from a Longbow from 1d8+Str to 2d6+Str. Although this isn't as much damage as Power Attack, you will be able to get more Full Attack actions, and you don't have to put yourself into direct danger as often. It also only requires an investment of 2 feats: Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. If you're playing an elf, it might be worth taking 2 levels of Arcane Archer to get Imbue Arrow, although I am not sold on it. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. So this doesn't work. You can put large ammo in your quiver though, so it's still a good trick. First, you don't qualify for spellsword the way you are doing it. Second, you are using combat brute and improved sunder. While not bad feats, my guess is those aren't the feats you're looking for. They are not overly synergisitic with the build. I believe you want improved bullrush and shock trooper. Third, the levels at which you are taking feats are not optimal. Fourth, powerful charge is great at level 1, but quickly becomes a crap feat, I recommend dropping it. What I get out of combat Brute is the ability to do a x3 power attack on the round after I complete a charge. What Shock trooper gives you is the ability to sacrifice AC instead of BAB for power attack. While this is a good thing, I like the first option better, since I don't have a lot of HP to rely on. Purhapse a better optoin still is to take only improved sunder and impoved bull rush, and use two charges off a wand of heroics to get BOTH of the above feats for 30 minutes per charge. That seems like a pretty good arrangement to me. As for Powerful charge, I realize that it is a limited feat. I figure it's worth it though for the extra 2d6 you do when large. Heck I can even scale it when I level by becoming huge and gettng 3d6 out of it. If worse comes to worse, I can cast a limited wish and trade it out at higher levels by emulating the psychic reformation psionic power. I prefer not to do this, but it's not like I'm really locked into ANYTHING once I can do this trick. Longaxe is a decent weapon, but I question if it is worth a feat for this build. You already have reach with enlarge person. The extra reach gained may not be worth it. You also can't attack adjacent foes in the same round as reach foes and vis versa. That annoys me. Cuts out on a lot of AoO potential, which is the best reason to have reach. the things I like about the Longaxe are that it does 3d6 when I'm large (which is as good as large weapon damage gets) with a x3 crit (I would like a better crit range but this is good too). And frankly I like the whole reach/no-reach thing. I want to be able to do a leap attack that allows me to hit the BBEG who is hiding 20' behind his mooks. I also want to be able to use the party tank for cover when I am low on HP. Finally, I like the idea of being able to take a 5' step back, cast a swift/quickened spell, and still get a full attack off on the same round. I just think that it works well for a massive damage gish build. As far as AoO's go, I can still get them off my armor spikes etc. when I am in reach mode. The damage isn't as good, but hey, you can't have everything. I question the necessity of precise swing. This feat is subject to how your DM plays. Does he really calculate a lot of cover? If so then it is probably worth it, if it is only occasionally it probably isn't. I do too. I figure that it might not be worth the feat, but I hope that by the time I take the feat I will have a better sense of this.
amalcon 03-13-06, 02:36 PM	Don't forget sword & board! If you're using a mithril buckler, it has no check penalty, no ASF, and you can hold a metamagic rod or a scroll or whatever else you may need in your shield hand. Actually having a decent armor class goes a long way to making up for the relative lack of hit points. The only problem with S&B is you don't get to take advantage of the very good Wraithstrike + Power Attack + Two Handed Weapon combo.
UMiskatonic 03-13-06, 02:45 PM	Actually, if you're willing to give up the AC bonus, and accept a -1 to hit, you can switch that second hand to the weapon. So, sword and buckler for AC, or sword in both hands for power. It's a fairly versatile way to go. Improved buckler defense is even better, and goes well with Craft arms and armor