Best form for Primeval [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best form for Primeval [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Antendren
08-18-05, 05:40 PM So I'm playing around with Shifter Savagery and Primeval (and enjoying no small amount of success, I feel), and it's gotten me to wondering what the best form for a Primeval is. For those without Frostburn, I'm looking for a combat form for a level 8 druid with the restriction that it must be "prehistoric", where that's defined to mean dire, dinosaur, or anything else you can squeak past your DM. So far, it seems like Dire Lion and Megaraptor are the only two real contenders, but I was hoping someone would have a better idea?
Griff_Goodbeard
08-18-05, 06:16 PM This 8HD restriction has taunted me for some time :D . There's several better forms at 9HD, but the two you've named are the best forms at 8HD I've found.
Vestigial_Thumb
08-18-05, 06:33 PM Maybe he'll let you use advanced versions of animals. Cryptoclidus advanced to 8HD is formidable (though aquatic). Dire hawk (RotW) is awesome if you advance it to 8HD. If your DM is a bastard and won't let you advance them, screw him and listen to Antendren.
Gerdreg
08-19-05, 07:19 AM I strongly feel the Dire Ape is the best form. Good stats, a climb movement rate, and a claw/claw/bite/rend full attack routine. Also, though there are no specific rules to support this, Apes should be able to wield weapons.
insatium
08-19-05, 08:49 AM Except Dire Apes have 13HD.
Gerdreg
08-19-05, 09:27 AM Except Dire Apes have 13HD.

Whoa, that's news to me, my MM 3.5 and the SRD say they have 5. :confused:
Vestigial_Thumb
08-19-05, 10:13 AM Whoa, that's news to me, my MM 3.5 and the SRD say they have 5. :confused:
Well, you're right. Insatium is just insane. Or maybe he/she is confusing the dire ape with the legendary ape which, incidentally, has 13HD. :)
neilthrun
08-19-05, 12:01 PM Dire boars are the way to go 27 strength and 17 con. If you want a higher con you could go dire wolverine for 19.
Todd
08-19-05, 12:40 PM The Megaraptor mentioned above has 21 Con....
insatium
08-19-05, 02:57 PM Whoops! :embarrass I was indeed confusing it with the Legendary. :(
Antendren
08-19-05, 03:10 PM Dire boars have some nice strength, but a really cruddy attack routine. Dire ape is worth considering, depending on if your DM allows them to use equipment. If not, I think lion is superior: better stats, pounce and improved grab. Rend vs. rake, I'm not sure which I prefer (I think I come down on rake), but since I'm using a shifter base, I can get rend anyway (albeit a slightly weaker one).
Shandrakor
08-19-05, 11:31 PM The 8HD restriction means you're stuck just shy of a number of nifty forms. Thus far, the only really effective use of Primeval I've seen was Urnsk's World Record Jump Check. If you've got something swanky, I think I speak for the board when I say "Show us Show us Show us!"
neilthrun
08-19-05, 11:33 PM Dire boars have some nice strength, but a really cruddy attack routine. Dire ape is worth considering, depending on if your DM allows them to use equipment. If not, I think lion is superior: better stats, pounce and improved grab. Rend vs. rake, I'm not sure which I prefer (I think I come down on rake), but since I'm using a shifter base, I can get rend anyway (albeit a slightly weaker one).

I wasnt aware primevals got there shifted forms attacks. Dont they keep the use of there hands? and whatever there attack form was before?
Antendren
08-20-05, 02:34 AM I wasnt aware primevals got there shifted forms attacks. Dont they keep the use of there hands? and whatever there attack form was before? I don't have my books on hand, but I'm pretty sure their ability is like wildshape in that it says "like polymorph except . . ."

As far as builds go, I was playing a shifter Weretouched Master (tiger) until the most recent Eberron errata nerfed him hard, so I've just been playing around with Primeval to see if I could bring him back.

So far, I'm thinking razorclaw shifter with Ranger 3/Barb 4/HW 1/Primeval 10. The obvious choice for the last two levels is Warshaper, but for whatever reason, I just don't want to use it. I think I've gotten sick of it.

Feats would go: Toughness, Self-Sufficient, Shifter Savagery, Shifter Multiattack, Raging Luck, Power Attack and then Ragewild Fighting. Gives you two rages, two shifts, and four primeval forms. Turn into a dire lion, then rage and shift. In addition to the stat bonuses of each, all of your attacks go up two sizes. He'd probably spend most of his wealth on inherent stat boosts.

Since my DM tends to run a fairly low-magic campaign, I'm very fond of the large strength boost this guy gets. Others may feel that sacrificing items isn't worth it.
Gerdreg
08-20-05, 09:33 AM I am playing Primeval now and actually I have found Druid 6/ Nature's Warrior 4 to be my best entry into Primeval. I tried Barbarian and Barb/ Fighter before but Wildshape really makes the difference.

Wildshape not only gives you more shifts per day, but the duration is in hours not minutes (as written, it does not indicate that when using Wildshape to enter Primeval form the duration is reduced).

Also it's been nice to be able to self-buff natural attacks and AC, and equip myself with some low level, but useful, items. I regularly use spells such as Greater Magic Fang, Barksin, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, and Bear's Endurance and when I can afford it, I will make some low level items so that I can have the effects all the time.
saucercrab
08-20-05, 09:43 AM I strongly feel the Dire Ape is the best form. Good stats, a climb movement rate, and a claw/claw/bite/rend full attack routine. Also, though there are no specific rules to support this, Apes should be able to wield weapons.I agree wholeheartedly with this.

If the DM allows an ape-form to wield weapons ('cause they do have opposable thumbs, so why not?), the ability to wield a magical greatsword (& make iterative attacks) is a great match to a 30+ Strength (a low-end estimate, to be sure).
Todd
08-20-05, 11:42 AM I've been thinking about a Wildshape Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 7 / Primeval 7 / x-1 build.

Not much spellcasting but gives an additional 8 or Primeval shifts if you don't use the MoMF wildshapes. You could sneak in a level of Barb somewhere if you really want Rage.
Todd
08-20-05, 10:06 PM Three more thoughts.

First the Megaraptor is a Huge form ... and Primeval resticts the forms to being within one size of the character's base form. So it would be OK for a Half Ogre but not a human or shifter.

Second Dire Panther from Sandstorm looks like it might be an interesting choice. Less str than a dire lion but more dex and a similar attack type.

Finally, has anyone thought to use the Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) trick to Primeval? The Divine Minion template grants unlimited wildshape ... thus unlimited Primeval form shifts if allowed.... :schemes:
Caelic
08-20-05, 10:43 PM I'd really like to know if there's ever been a definitive answer: does a Primeval using Wild Shape to assume his Primeval form get to use the duration of Wild Shape, or is he stuck with the duration of Primeval?
Antendren
08-21-05, 12:14 AM First the Megaraptor is a Huge form ... Woops, hadn't noticed that.

I like the sound of Druid 6/Nature's Warrior 4, Gerdreg. Which abilities did you grab with NW?
AlienFromBeyond
08-21-05, 12:15 AM I always thought it was clear it was Primeval duration. You're using a Wild Shape use to activate Primeval form, not going into Primeval form using Wild Shape.
panos71
08-21-05, 03:38 AM So I'm playing around with Shifter Savagery and Primeval (and enjoying no small amount of success, I feel), and it's gotten me to wondering what the best form for a Primeval is. For those without Frostburn, I'm looking for a combat form for a level 8 druid with the restriction that it must be "prehistoric", where that's defined to mean dire, dinosaur, or anything else you can squeak past your DM. So far, it seems like Dire Lion and Megaraptor are the only two real contenders, but I was hoping someone would have a better idea?
What about a Brown Bear or Polar Bear for your Primal form? I think they fit the definition of "prehistoric".
Pinky's brain
08-21-05, 03:47 AM I always thought it was clear it was Primeval duration. You're using a Wild Shape use to activate Primeval formThat might be RAI. But ...
not going into Primeval form using Wild Shape.Is what it actually says (well what it actually says is that he may use wildshape to assume his primeval form).
Gerdreg
08-21-05, 10:52 AM Woops, hadn't noticed that.

I like the sound of Druid 6/Nature's Warrior 4, Gerdreg. Which abilities did you grab with NW?

I took Wild Growth because when adventuring I seemed to spend most of my time in Dire Ape form (Natural Spell became my friend later on).

For my second I took Armor of the Crocodile for the +4 natural armor.

Claws of the Grizzly and Earth's Embrace also seemed like good choices to me and were heavily considered.

Nature's Weapon was redundant with Magic Fang and the others were not applicable to Dire Ape form.

My choices may have been influenced by my role as the group's main "tank" as we had a couple of good damage dealers.
AlienFromBeyond
08-21-05, 05:27 PM Is what it actually says (well what it actually says is that he may use wildshape to assume his primeval form).
*sigh* I'd have to read the book again, but I don't want to bother. I think it is safe to say though that most DMs would probably go with a similar interpretation.
BarbeChenue
08-21-05, 07:23 PM Using Wildshape to go into his primeval form could also be interpreted as "go in wild shape and take your animal form, nobody stops you from doing this". :P You wouldn't keep your base statistics and you would lose most of the good features of the class. :D
Gerdreg
08-22-05, 07:50 AM I think as written is indicates that the Druid uses actually uses Wildshape to assume the Primeval form. It does not say he uses Wildshape uses to gain more Primeval form uses. He is in Primeval form (with all it's benefits) but uses Wildshape to get there. I think you should use the duration for Primeval form's when you use it to assume the form, and Wildsahape's duration when you use it. I do not see a conflict here. They are two different abilities being used to assume the same (exact) form.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Antendren 08-18-05, 05:40 PM	So I'm playing around with Shifter Savagery and Primeval (and enjoying no small amount of success, I feel), and it's gotten me to wondering what the best form for a Primeval is. For those without Frostburn, I'm looking for a combat form for a level 8 druid with the restriction that it must be "prehistoric", where that's defined to mean dire, dinosaur, or anything else you can squeak past your DM. So far, it seems like Dire Lion and Megaraptor are the only two real contenders, but I was hoping someone would have a better idea?
Griff_Goodbeard 08-18-05, 06:16 PM	This 8HD restriction has taunted me for some time :D . There's several better forms at 9HD, but the two you've named are the best forms at 8HD I've found.
Vestigial_Thumb 08-18-05, 06:33 PM	Maybe he'll let you use advanced versions of animals. Cryptoclidus advanced to 8HD is formidable (though aquatic). Dire hawk (RotW) is awesome if you advance it to 8HD. If your DM is a bastard and won't let you advance them, screw him and listen to Antendren.
Gerdreg 08-19-05, 07:19 AM	I strongly feel the Dire Ape is the best form. Good stats, a climb movement rate, and a claw/claw/bite/rend full attack routine. Also, though there are no specific rules to support this, Apes should be able to wield weapons.
insatium 08-19-05, 08:49 AM	Except Dire Apes have 13HD.
Gerdreg 08-19-05, 09:27 AM	Except Dire Apes have 13HD. Whoa, that's news to me, my MM 3.5 and the SRD say they have 5. :confused:
Vestigial_Thumb 08-19-05, 10:13 AM	Whoa, that's news to me, my MM 3.5 and the SRD say they have 5. :confused: Well, you're right. Insatium is just insane. Or maybe he/she is confusing the dire ape with the legendary ape which, incidentally, has 13HD. :)
neilthrun 08-19-05, 12:01 PM	Dire boars are the way to go 27 strength and 17 con. If you want a higher con you could go dire wolverine for 19.
Todd 08-19-05, 12:40 PM	The Megaraptor mentioned above has 21 Con....
insatium 08-19-05, 02:57 PM	Whoops! :embarrass I was indeed confusing it with the Legendary. :(
Antendren 08-19-05, 03:10 PM	Dire boars have some nice strength, but a really cruddy attack routine. Dire ape is worth considering, depending on if your DM allows them to use equipment. If not, I think lion is superior: better stats, pounce and improved grab. Rend vs. rake, I'm not sure which I prefer (I think I come down on rake), but since I'm using a shifter base, I can get rend anyway (albeit a slightly weaker one).
Shandrakor 08-19-05, 11:31 PM	The 8HD restriction means you're stuck just shy of a number of nifty forms. Thus far, the only really effective use of Primeval I've seen was Urnsk's World Record Jump Check. If you've got something swanky, I think I speak for the board when I say "Show us Show us Show us!"
neilthrun 08-19-05, 11:33 PM	Dire boars have some nice strength, but a really cruddy attack routine. Dire ape is worth considering, depending on if your DM allows them to use equipment. If not, I think lion is superior: better stats, pounce and improved grab. Rend vs. rake, I'm not sure which I prefer (I think I come down on rake), but since I'm using a shifter base, I can get rend anyway (albeit a slightly weaker one). I wasnt aware primevals got there shifted forms attacks. Dont they keep the use of there hands? and whatever there attack form was before?
Antendren 08-20-05, 02:34 AM	I wasnt aware primevals got there shifted forms attacks. Dont they keep the use of there hands? and whatever there attack form was before? I don't have my books on hand, but I'm pretty sure their ability is like wildshape in that it says "like polymorph except . . ." As far as builds go, I was playing a shifter Weretouched Master (tiger) until the most recent Eberron errata nerfed him hard, so I've just been playing around with Primeval to see if I could bring him back. So far, I'm thinking razorclaw shifter with Ranger 3/Barb 4/HW 1/Primeval 10. The obvious choice for the last two levels is Warshaper, but for whatever reason, I just don't want to use it. I think I've gotten sick of it. Feats would go: Toughness, Self-Sufficient, Shifter Savagery, Shifter Multiattack, Raging Luck, Power Attack and then Ragewild Fighting. Gives you two rages, two shifts, and four primeval forms. Turn into a dire lion, then rage and shift. In addition to the stat bonuses of each, all of your attacks go up two sizes. He'd probably spend most of his wealth on inherent stat boosts. Since my DM tends to run a fairly low-magic campaign, I'm very fond of the large strength boost this guy gets. Others may feel that sacrificing items isn't worth it.
Gerdreg 08-20-05, 09:33 AM	I am playing Primeval now and actually I have found Druid 6/ Nature's Warrior 4 to be my best entry into Primeval. I tried Barbarian and Barb/ Fighter before but Wildshape really makes the difference. Wildshape not only gives you more shifts per day, but the duration is in hours not minutes (as written, it does not indicate that when using Wildshape to enter Primeval form the duration is reduced). Also it's been nice to be able to self-buff natural attacks and AC, and equip myself with some low level, but useful, items. I regularly use spells such as Greater Magic Fang, Barksin, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, and Bear's Endurance and when I can afford it, I will make some low level items so that I can have the effects all the time.
saucercrab 08-20-05, 09:43 AM	I strongly feel the Dire Ape is the best form. Good stats, a climb movement rate, and a claw/claw/bite/rend full attack routine. Also, though there are no specific rules to support this, Apes should be able to wield weapons.I agree wholeheartedly with this. If the DM allows an ape-form to wield weapons ('cause they do have opposable thumbs, so why not?), the ability to wield a magical greatsword (& make iterative attacks) is a great match to a 30+ Strength (a low-end estimate, to be sure).
Todd 08-20-05, 11:42 AM	I've been thinking about a Wildshape Ranger 5 / Master of Many Forms 7 / Primeval 7 / x-1 build. Not much spellcasting but gives an additional 8 or Primeval shifts if you don't use the MoMF wildshapes. You could sneak in a level of Barb somewhere if you really want Rage.
Todd 08-20-05, 10:06 PM	Three more thoughts. First the Megaraptor is a Huge form ... and Primeval resticts the forms to being within one size of the character's base form. So it would be OK for a Half Ogre but not a human or shifter. Second Dire Panther from Sandstorm looks like it might be an interesting choice. Less str than a dire lion but more dex and a similar attack type. Finally, has anyone thought to use the Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) trick to Primeval? The Divine Minion template grants unlimited wildshape ... thus unlimited Primeval form shifts if allowed.... :schemes:
Caelic 08-20-05, 10:43 PM	I'd really like to know if there's ever been a definitive answer: does a Primeval using Wild Shape to assume his Primeval form get to use the duration of Wild Shape, or is he stuck with the duration of Primeval?
Antendren 08-21-05, 12:14 AM	First the Megaraptor is a Huge form ... Woops, hadn't noticed that. I like the sound of Druid 6/Nature's Warrior 4, Gerdreg. Which abilities did you grab with NW?
AlienFromBeyond 08-21-05, 12:15 AM	I always thought it was clear it was Primeval duration. You're using a Wild Shape use to activate Primeval form, not going into Primeval form using Wild Shape.
panos71 08-21-05, 03:38 AM	So I'm playing around with Shifter Savagery and Primeval (and enjoying no small amount of success, I feel), and it's gotten me to wondering what the best form for a Primeval is. For those without Frostburn, I'm looking for a combat form for a level 8 druid with the restriction that it must be "prehistoric", where that's defined to mean dire, dinosaur, or anything else you can squeak past your DM. So far, it seems like Dire Lion and Megaraptor are the only two real contenders, but I was hoping someone would have a better idea? What about a Brown Bear or Polar Bear for your Primal form? I think they fit the definition of "prehistoric".
Pinky's brain 08-21-05, 03:47 AM	I always thought it was clear it was Primeval duration. You're using a Wild Shape use to activate Primeval formThat might be RAI. But ... not going into Primeval form using Wild Shape.Is what it actually says (well what it actually says is that he may use wildshape to assume his primeval form).
Gerdreg 08-21-05, 10:52 AM	Woops, hadn't noticed that. I like the sound of Druid 6/Nature's Warrior 4, Gerdreg. Which abilities did you grab with NW? I took Wild Growth because when adventuring I seemed to spend most of my time in Dire Ape form (Natural Spell became my friend later on). For my second I took Armor of the Crocodile for the +4 natural armor. Claws of the Grizzly and Earth's Embrace also seemed like good choices to me and were heavily considered. Nature's Weapon was redundant with Magic Fang and the others were not applicable to Dire Ape form. My choices may have been influenced by my role as the group's main "tank" as we had a couple of good damage dealers.
AlienFromBeyond 08-21-05, 05:27 PM	Is what it actually says (well what it actually says is that he may use wildshape to assume his primeval form). sigh I'd have to read the book again, but I don't want to bother. I think it is safe to say though that most DMs would probably go with a similar interpretation.
BarbeChenue 08-21-05, 07:23 PM	Using Wildshape to go into his primeval form could also be interpreted as "go in wild shape and take your animal form, nobody stops you from doing this". :P You wouldn't keep your base statistics and you would lose most of the good features of the class. :D
Gerdreg 08-22-05, 07:50 AM	I think as written is indicates that the Druid uses actually uses Wildshape to assume the Primeval form. It does not say he uses Wildshape uses to gain more Primeval form uses. He is in Primeval form (with all it's benefits) but uses Wildshape to get there. I think you should use the duration for Primeval form's when you use it to assume the form, and Wildsahape's duration when you use it. I do not see a conflict here. They are two different abilities being used to assume the same (exact) form.