Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Interested2 02-18-05, 02:24 PM	So far, the build I'm looking at playing looks like this: Level Class Abil Feat(s) MWSHD 1 Minion of Thoth LA 11 2 Master of Many Forms 1 Alertness, Endurance, Assume Supernatural Ability, Improved Assume Supernatural Ability 12 3 Master of Many Forms 2 13 4 Master of Many Forms 3 Lions Pounce 14 5 Master of Many Forms 4 Cha +1 15 6 Master of Many Forms 5 16 7 Master of Many Forms 6 Track 17 8 Master of Many Forms 7 18 9 Master of Many Forms 8 Cha +1 19 10 Master of Many Forms 9 Cheetah's Speed 20 11 Master of Many Forms 10 21 12 Warshaper 1 21 13 Warshaper 2 Cha +1 Multiattack 21 14 Nature's Warrior 1 22 15 Nature's Warrior 2 23 16 Nature's Warrior 3 Improved Multiattack 24 17 Nature's Warrior 4 Cha +1 25 18 Nature's Warrior 5 26 19 Warshaper 3 Improved Natural Attack 26 20 Warshaper 4 26 So, I was wondering what forms would be best at the lower levels from 2-11 or so? I will be getting a wild shape amulet as soon as I possibly can, but the max HD are shown to the far right on the table (without amulet). So far, the Gulgar has caught my eye as something I can shape into right off the bat. 10hd, cr 9. The ten-headed terror is attractive for higher levels, as well, even though it's only cr 13. Virtually ANY troll seems good, especially the War Troll. After level 11, Dragons obviously become the form of choice. All WOTC 3.5 and 3.0 material is allowed, but no evil alignments. Also, I was *sure* I'd seen undead wild shape somewhere...any ideas? As always, any and all help is greatly appreciated.
Skulan 02-18-05, 02:58 PM	Quick question: How are you getting four feats at 1st level? Also, from what I recall, you normally can't obtain the prerequisites for a PrC at the level in which you take it, so you may have to take a level in another class before Master of Many Forms, to pick up Alertness and Endurance before you take the class. Could be wrong on that one, though. -Skulan
Skulan 02-18-05, 03:13 PM	Assuming you can keep this progression, the fun really starts at MoMF 2, with giant shapes. Ettin for two-weapon perfection, Firbolg, or Troll (go Crystalline for vulnerability to Sonic damage only, or War troll for Acid), depending on the situation. That should get you through level three and several more. Humanoid shapes are more limited; you may be stuck with bugbear or something. -Skulan
Interested2 02-18-05, 04:18 PM	1. Flaws from unearthed arcana. Inattentive and Meager Fortitude are good for this. It's a human, so 1st level feat + Human feat + 2 flaw feats = 4 feats at first level. 2. Hmm. You may very well be right, although I hope not. If so, then I'll just chuck a level of Fighter in there. The campaign will be going at level 5, possibly level 6, so I should be golden. Suggestions?
Betrayer of Hope 02-18-05, 04:28 PM	I can't cite chapter and verse, but I'm 99% sure that you have to meet all of the pre-requisites before you take the first level in a prestige class. So you'll need a level of fighter or rogue or something before that first level of Shifter. This is a rules exploit you can drive a truck through (11th level wildshape for +1 LA!), but I guess Wizards deserves it for putting up a template that was clearly not thought out in the least. The real downside is that we're going to have to endure weeks of any request for a good build being met with, "Go Divine Minion, etc, and be an Ancient Fang Dragon by 12th level." Optimization is one thing, but this is just beating on a stupid and poorly tested (in a word, broken) web-enhancement template. Hmmm... would it be less broken if you only could wildshape like a 1st level druid? I mean, the Shifter stuff is pretty good, but it seems like the real cheese is getting 11 wildshape HD for nothing. EDIT: Actually, I guess the "at will" fueling wild feats is pretty dumb also.
NineInchNall 02-18-05, 04:41 PM	You can do it because Minion is a +1 LA template. It breaks down like this. You start off in a _monster_class_, for example Human Minion of Thoth. As a human you get a crappy, what 1d8 hit die with crappy saves? You also get two feats -- 1 from the HD and one racial. Once you complete this 1 level racial class, you can trade that hit die, its saves, and its skills for that of the first class you take. Hence, you end up with MoMF 1, ECL 2. I figure that the nicest all around the clock form for the MoMF, once you get to change into a dragon, is a Wyrmling Force Dragon. Once you hit 12 HD you can wild shape into a 23 HD dragon -- Wyrmling Prismatic, anyone? You get Prismatic Spray as a breath weapon, which is so nasty at 12th level that I don't even want to think about it. You also have good SR, natural weapon routines, and a pretty damn good frightful prescence DC. Of course, the Fang Dragon's nasty, too. A monstrus scorpion is also nasty, if you wanna be different. A Gloom can be really nasty: 25 HD creature with a Fear gaze and a 13d6 sneak attack, 35 SR, DR 10/epic, and blindsight. I suppose that early on you could change into a were-creature (read first level of MoMF), since it's humanoid.
Skulan 02-18-05, 04:48 PM	Ooh, excellent catch on the lycanthropes being humanoids. There you go. Spend 2nd level as a werebear, weretiger, or whatever. Wow. This build has no dead levels. And flaws definitely work to get the feats. Thanks for the clarification. -Skulan
saucercrab 02-18-05, 07:36 PM	You can do it because Minion is a +1 LA template. It breaks down like this. You start off in a _monster_class_, for example Human Minion of Thoth. As a human you get a crappy, what 1d8 hit die with crappy saves? You also get two feats -- 1 from the HD and one racial. Once you complete this 1 level racial class, you can trade that hit die, its saves, and its skills for that of the first class you take. Hence, you end up with MoMF 1, ECL 2. Complete this 1 level racial class? What are you talking about? :confused: A human (subtype of the humanoid type) has to pick a class at first level (MM, page 310). You can't take one level/HD of human, as there is no human monster class.
Impeesa 02-18-05, 09:01 PM	Assume Supernatural Ability and its Greater version together give you one ability. Exalted Wildshape gives you all of them. If the Divine Minion's wildshaping doesn't count as "wild shape class level 8", then MoMF does. --Impeesa--
Interested2 02-18-05, 09:09 PM	Yes, indeed. Good call on exalted wild shape, I'll work that in there. Probably drop Cheetah's Speed for it. Unfortunatly, exalted wild shape has a VERY limited number of uses, so Assume is staying in there for the breath weapons (yay!). You're right about lycanthropes, I completely forgot about those >.<. Betrayer - dang right it is. The Hulking Hurler is also a hole you can drive a truck through, and somehow it's managed to work pretty good. See also: Divine Metamagic, Persistant Spell, Frenzied Berserker, DweomerCheater, etc. Also note - for even MORE cheese, I'm going to make a Necklace of Natural Weapons for two weapons (claws), and put it on a wilding clasp so it's still used when I change form. +1 Flame Frost Shock Ghost Touch Wounding Speed claws, anyone? Side note: The Gibbering Orb from the ELH looks like a godly form once I get a Wild Shape Amulet. 27 HD though, so its a later-level form.
saucercrab 02-18-05, 09:27 PM	Interested2, Although I was quoting NineInchNall, my first post was for you as well. If you're using a creature with no racial HD (like a human), then you need to choose a PC or NPC class for at least 1 level.
Interested2 02-18-05, 09:29 PM	I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. A human without class levels has 1 racial HD with all the goodies. The first class level replaces it. I *think* it's said in the PHB, but it might be SS or some other book. That's how I understand it to work, and how the DM understands it to work in my group.
saucercrab 02-18-05, 09:47 PM	I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. A human without class levels has 1 racial HD with all the goodies. The first class level replaces it. I *think* it's said in the PHB, but it might be SS or some other book. That's how I understand it to work, and how the DM understands it to work in my group.No, I'm not. Like I said before, it's on page 310 of the Monster Manual. In the Glossary, under the Humanoid Type, it states:Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means they have average combat ability & poor saving throws. Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die (for example, gnolls & bugbears) are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.It then goes on to detail the features of the humanoid type. The exchange of racial features for class features (i.e., the single racial Hit Die for the first class Hit Die) is done when the creature/character is created.
Interested2 02-18-05, 09:50 PM	Interesting. Well, chuck a level of druid in there, it should stack. If it doesn't, well, then chuck in a level of fighter and grab a bonus feat. Not a crippling error by any means :). Even better, use LA buyoff. ;)
saucercrab 02-18-05, 10:01 PM	That's all I was saying. :) BTW, the text you were thinking of (keeping a single racial Hit Die) is in SS (page 13, just found it), but it's superceded by the text in the humanoid type (in the 3.5 MM); I noticed that this text doesn't exist in the fey entry. So a fey of some sort can have 1 level in whatever fey it is, but a humanoid must select a class instead of it's racial Hit Die. AFAIK, the humanoid type is the only type that has this clause in it. Prob' so that your average player creating a 1st level character will use the PHB & not the MM. Mind you, I can't stop you from not telling your DM this, though. ;) BTW, a druid level would take advantage of the nature warrior's spellcasting advancement, right?
Mommy was an Orc 02-18-05, 10:26 PM	Actually, it is really clear cut - they don't qualify for MoMF. They defined precisely what they meant by wild shape class feature... Under the Wild Feats section in Complete Adventurer: "All wild feats have as a prerequisite the wild shape class feature. Thus, they are open to druids of 5th level or higher, as well as any character who has gained wild shape or similar class feature from a prestige class." As Divine Minions haven't gained Wild Shape(or similar class feature) from being a Druid or from a prestige class, they don't qualify for it. This by the way is more restrictive than the previous language in Complete Divine: "All wild feats have as a prerequisite the wild shape ability. Thus, they are open to druids of 5th level or higher, as well as any character who has gained the wild shape ability from a prestige class or other source." At the very least, they definitely defined things in such a way that the Divine Minion can't use MoMF or any of the wild feats in Complete Adventurer. That Complete Adventurer is a later book implies they're not even allowed to use the Wild Feats from Complete Divine... If the Divine Minion's wildshaping doesn't count as "wild shape class level 8", then MoMF does.
Ualaa 02-18-05, 11:25 PM	The quickest way to MoMF is: Druid 01 Druid 02 Druid 03 Druid 04 Druid 05 (Wildshape) MoMF 01 Or if you're going Gestalt: Druid 01 / Something Druid 02 / Something Druid 03 / Something Druid 04 / Something Druid 05 / MoMF 01 Wildshape is limited to forms of no more HD then you have wildshaping levels, much like polymorph and shapechange are limited to caster level; unlike the aforementioned spells, wildshape does not have a cap (polymorph 15HD and shapechange 25HD). Assuming you could take the progression mentioned in the first post, at MoMF 1, you would have one level of wildshaping ability which would cap your wildshapes at 1HD forms of whatever type you had access to. At MoMF 3, you would cap at 3HD forms etc. You might find this link useful: Master of Many Forms Bible (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=363632)
Alratan 02-19-05, 05:53 AM	Please can we return the "do virtual class features count as class features argument" to one of the other threads discussing the viability of this kind of build. Actually, it is really clear cut - they don't qualify for MoMF. They defined precisely what they meant by wild shape class feature... Under the Wild Feats section in Complete Adventurer: "All wild feats have as a prerequisite the wild shape class feature. Thus, they are open to druids of 5th level or higher, as well as any character who has gained wild shape or similar class feature from a prestige class." I would say Wildshape as an 11th level druid from divine minion qualified as being the same as being a druid of 5th level or higher. Moving on: Complete this 1 level racial class? What are you talking about? A human (subtype of the humanoid type) has to pick a class at first level (MM, page 310). You can't take one level/HD of human, as there is no human monster class. But you are not a humanoid of subtype human. You are an Outsider of subtype Lawful. I don't know if this makes much difference however. As I remember it, the rules talking about +1 LA outsiders exchanging racial hit die automatically specifically refers to native outsiders. If you are not allowed this, take human paragon as your first level, choose able learner as your first (bonus) feat, then take the template. I would maintain that by the rules, you don't need to meet the pre-requisites of a bonus feat to use it. However, you do need to meet them to choose a bonus feat from that human paragon level. Once you have chosen it, however, you no longer need to meet the pre-reqs, as it is a bonus feats. This means you retain the benefits of Able Learner once you are no longer a human. This adds flexibility to the build, as human paragon gives you 10 class skills of your choice, and Able Learner effectively makes them class skills forever. I will have to post this elsewhere speratly - as a combination of psychic reformation and the fighter's multiple bonus feats could nearly make fighter worthwile at high level. On wildshape forms: Undead Wildshape is from Libris Mortis. I like Dark Stalker as the humanoid form if were-bear s denied (for being nearly a template), as it gives you +3d6 sneak attack and good physicals at ECL 2. You don't even suffer the light blindness, as it is an SQ.
Interested2 02-19-05, 07:27 AM	Aaah, okay. Yes, can we please keep the debate as to if divine minion is legal or not to a different thread? A pity there isn't a PrC that adds wild shape into any undead form...all I can find is Blighter, and that just lets you add a skeleton form. As a side note, it's been established that MoMF has wilding.
Alratan 02-19-05, 07:47 AM	Corrupted Wildshape from LM only works if you are undead, and dosen't give you undead forms, just gives your wildshape forms undead traits. If you are playing with a draconian DM, human paragon 1 followed by 1 level of a template class version of Divine Minion. Bypassing both problems, as you would have Wildshape as a class feature and would meet your PrC requirements in advance.
widow 02-19-05, 01:55 PM	I maybe wrong, but you can enter a PrC at a level you gain the pre-reqs to enter it under certain circumstances. Now this does not mean caster levels, skills, or class abilities. This pertains only to ability scores and feats. Say you need combat expertise to enter a class and turn level 12. At level 12 you get a stat bump so you could raise int from a 12 to a 13 and take combat expertise, which would qualify you for the class. I am certain this works in regard to acquiring the feat, but not certain about the PrC. I thought the template says your alignment subtype changes to that of your deity, but does that mean you get an alignment subtype if you dont have one previously. I am asking because I am always looking for the best way to get into the fiend of possession PrC as soon as possible.
Interested2 02-19-05, 02:03 PM	Yes it does, widow. I suggested in another thread doing one of these for an evil deity (dont remember which one I suggested), and combining that with Psion/Thrallherd/Fiend of Possession.
Alratan 02-20-05, 07:19 AM	On useful forms, if your DM allows you to Wildshape into templated forms, then half-dragon anything is good, as is Multi-headed+feral anything monstrous humanoid, like Thri'keen, or multi-headed anything if you have two HD or more spare on your Wildshape limit. A Learenan Two-Headed Cyro Old Fang Dragon at 20th level would be good. If you are allowed to assume multi-headed forms then you have two feats free. I would dump Cheetah's Speed, as you can assume a fast form at the beginning of your round as a free action, move, use a free action to enter your desired form, and then spend your action. According to the Quick Draw rules, it would appear that you can take free actions between iterative attacks, which could lead to an infinite attack loop, as you change form to a new creature with multiple natural attacks before your penultimate natural attack...
Interested2 02-20-05, 09:36 AM	Great idea as to the templates, however I expect the DM will nix it. And man, this rules-hole just keeps getting bigger. :)
Alratan 02-20-05, 10:32 AM	The Iterative attacks thing is not truely infinite because of the limits on free actions per turn, but I think the movement one is fine.
saucercrab 02-21-05, 03:40 PM	Moving on: But you are not a humanoid of subtype human. You are an Outsider of subtype Lawful. I don't know if this makes much difference however. As I remember it, the rules talking about +1 LA outsiders exchanging racial hit die automatically specifically refers to native outsiders.The template is an acquired one, so the character wouldn't have it at birth/creation (unlike an inherited one, which is given at birth, like the half-fiend). The template also says not to recalculate HD, BAB, etc. for when the type changes to outsider. So before a human character can become a Mulhorandi divine minion, he already has a class that was traded in for that first (arguably non-existent) humanoid HD, even if that class is just the commoner NPC class. If you are not allowed this, take human paragon as your first level, choose able learner as your first (bonus) feat, then take the template. I would maintain that by the rules, you don't need to meet the pre-requisites of a bonus feat to use it. However, you do need to meet them to choose a bonus feat from that human paragon level. Once you have chosen it, however, you no longer need to meet the pre-reqs, as it is a bonus feats. This means you retain the benefits of Able Learner once you are no longer a human. This adds flexibility to the build, as human paragon gives you 10 class skills of your choice, and Able Learner effectively makes them class skills forever.Well, that's like the dragon disciple PrC conundrum. At 10th class level, the character no longer qualifies for it. I don't see a problem with choosing Able Learner when a character is a human, even if the character changes type later on (like if he became a lich). Hmm, this might be semantical, but the template says your type changes to outsider & your alignment subtypes change, but it mentions nothing about other subtypes. So a Mulhorandi divine minion that used to be a human would be an outsider (human, lawful). I maybe wrong, but you can enter a PrC at a level you gain the pre-reqs to enter it under certain circumstances. Now this does not mean caster levels, skills, or class abilities. This pertains only to ability scores and feats. Say you need combat expertise to enter a class and turn level 12. At level 12 you get a stat bump so you could raise int from a 12 to a 13 and take combat expertise, which would qualify you for the class. I am certain this works in regard to acquiring the feat, but not certain about the PrC. No, that's not true. Page 176 of the DMG prohibits this. It's in the first paragraph under the Prestige Classes heading. In short, the text states that when a character gains a level, the first thing he does is select a class, before anything else is done.
Alratan 02-21-05, 04:01 PM	Well, that's like the dragon disciple PrC conundrum. At 10th class level, the character no longer qualifies for it. I don't see a problem with choosing Able Learner when a character is a human, even if the character changes type later on (like if he became a lich). You miss my point. If the Minion had chosen the feat in one of its normal feat slots, then the question would arise, but as a bonus feat the Minion does not need to have the pre-reqs to keep the benefits.
NineInchNall 02-21-05, 07:48 PM	No, I'm not. Like I said before, it's on page 310 of the Monster Manual. In the Glossary, under the Humanoid Type, it states:It then goes on to detail the features of the humanoid type. Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means they have average combat ability & poor saving throws. Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die (for example, gnolls & bugbears) are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type. The exchange of racial features for class features (i.e., the single racial Hit Die for the first class Hit Die) is done when the creature/character is created. :lightbulb: Oh, boy. Did you see what it said? Humanoids with 1 hit die (our guy) exchange the features of their humanoid hit die for the first level in a class. A Minion of Thoth is a template with a +1 LA. He still has only one HD, so he trades that in once he picks up a real class. The book presents humanoids as warriors/commoners/etc. because it simplifies matters. The only way for humanoids with a single base hit die to advance is by character class, so that's how they're presented. The paragraph about doing this at character creation is overruled in Savage Species.
Sir Gummibaerchen 02-22-05, 05:00 AM	So what about the mega-abuse of Wildshape Snow suggested in another thread? Basically by the RAW you don't lose racial boni (like racial weapon proficiencies) when changing from one form to another without going into your "primary form" first. Is there any way to abuse this with the unlimited number of wildshapes we get from the template?
Alratan 02-22-05, 04:36 PM	Bonus feats: Core: Choker [Aberration]: Improved initiative Fire/Air Elementals [Elemental]: Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse. Grick [Aberration]: Track (so you save a feat - you don't need to take it to qualify for Nature's Warrior) Grimlock [Monstrous Humanoid]: Track Cyro-hydra [Magical Beast (cold)]: Multi-attack Were-bear [humanoid]: Iron Will, Track Were-boar [humanid]:Alertness, Iron Will Were-rat [humanoid]: Iron Will, Weapon Finesse Weretiger [humanid]:Alertness, Iron Will Werewolf [humanoid]: Iron Will, Track Naga [Aberration]: Eschew Materials Saughain [Monstrous humanoid] Multi-attack Satyr [Fey]: Iron Will Sprite [Fey]: Dodge Troglodyte [Monstrous humanoid] Multiattack Wyvern [Dragon]: Multiattack MMIII were-bloodstriker dinosaur [humanoid]: Powerful charge were-spindlespitter dinosaur [humanoid: Mobility, Weapon Finesse Dragon-eel [Dragon]: Powerful charge Gerivar [Giant]: Improved Bullrush, Improved Sunder (26 HD!) Gulgar [Monstrous Humanoid]: Powerful charge Harpoon Spider [Aberration]: Improved Trip Harssaf [Monstrous Humanoid]: Alertness, Lightning Reflexes Lurking Strangler [Aberration]: Alertness Odopi [Aberration]: Whirlwind Attack (20 HD) Skullcrush Ogre [Giant]: Improved Grapple, Two Weapon Fighting Phoelarch [Monstrous Humanoid]: Alertness, Great Fortitude Protean Scourge [Monstrous Humanoid]: Powerful charge Rune Hound [Aberration]: Track Shrieking Terror [Abberation]: Combat Reflexes Splinterwif [Fey]: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse Ethergaunt [Abberation]: Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Etherblade] Sarkrith Spelleater {Monstrous Humanoid]: Shot on the Run Shadar-kai [Fey]: Exotic Wepon Proficiency [Spiked Chain]
saucercrab 02-22-05, 08:27 PM	You miss my point. If the Minion had chosen the feat in one of its normal feat slots, then the question would arise, but as a bonus feat the Minion does not need to have the pre-reqs to keep the benefits.Yeah, I did miss it (& still am missing it). What bonus feat slot? Not the one for being a human? Oh, yeah, the human paragon's bonus feat is gained at the second class level (just noticed that myself). :lightbulb: Oh, boy. Did you see what it said? Humanoids with 1 hit die (our guy) exchange the features of their humanoid hit die for the first level in a class. A Minion of Thoth is a template with a +1 LA. He still has only one HD, so he trades that in once he picks up a real class. And he picks up that real class before he becomes a divine minion. What, you think a human divine minion can be played before he gains his first class level? The template is acquired, not inherited. The book presents humanoids as warriors/commoners/etc. because it simplifies matters. The only way for humanoids with a single base hit die to advance is by character class, so that's how they're presented.Right, & a divine minion already has a class before it becomes a divine minion. It can't trade that class for another (especially a PrC). The paragraph about doing this at character creation is overruled in Savage Species.So a source that is not fully 3.5 overrules a core, fully 3.5 source? :confused: Also, your forgot to quote me on this: No, that's not true. Page 176 of the DMG prohibits this. It's in the first paragraph under the Prestige Classes heading. In short, the text states that when a character gains a level, the first thing he does is select a class, before anything else is done.There are exceptions, sort of (like the blackguard trading in paladin levels), but that is specifically stated in each exception. The master of many forms PrC lacks such a text. So the prospective master of many forms has to have all the prerequisites fulfilled the level before he enters it.
NineInchNall 02-22-05, 09:14 PM	And he picks up that real class before he becomes a divine minion. What, you think a human divine minion can be played before he gains his first class level? The template is acquired, not inherited. --- Right, & a divine minion already has a class before it becomes a divine minion. It can't trade that class for another (especially a PrC). --- So a source that is not fully 3.5 overrules a core, fully 3.5 source? :confused: --- Also, your [sic] forgot to quote me on this: There are exceptions, sort of (like the blackguard trading in paladin levels), but that is specifically stated in each exception. The master of many forms PrC lacks such a text. So the prospective master of many forms has to have all the prerequisites fulfilled the level before he enters it. Point 1: It doesn't matter that the template is acquired or not. You can set it up as a LA +1 class, as per Savage Species. He doesn't need a class level first. Hell, you could set up a "monster" class for a normal 1 HD human if you wanted. It would suck, but you could do it. Point 2: No, you're arbitrarily saying that. How about this, Thoth or Set or whatever deity bestows the template on the character in his early childhood. He gets the human bonus feat and the feat for his human HD, then he picks up MoMF, trades in his crappy human racial HD, and goes to town. Point 3: Note the word core. Core is PHB/DMG/MM/SRD. Everything else, all those supplemental materials, they all provide options, feats, variant rules, what have you, that change the rules. If one uses the material from those books, then that material overrules the core material. As Savage Species has not yet been updated for 3.5, its material (aside from the statistics of various monsters) is still considered "okay." Point 4: The Divine Minion has the feats requisite before he enters MoMF. The rules for templates and such are given in Savage Species. You simply make Divine Minion a 1 level monster class that gets no abilities other than those from the template. Game over. Then you trade the HD in. It's like the rules for creating Aasimars and Tieflings as level 1, classless characters.
khaalis 02-23-05, 08:01 AM	Did we ever settle on a final build for this concept?
Interested2 02-23-05, 05:13 PM	Yep. Human Minion of Thoth Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 2/Natures Warrior 5/Warshaper 3-4.
saucercrab 02-23-05, 08:04 PM	Point 1: It doesn't matter that the template is acquired or not. You can set it up as a LA +1 class, as per Savage Species. He doesn't need a class level first. Hell, you could set up a "monster" class for a normal 1 HD human if you wanted. It would suck, but you could do it.No you couldn't do it; it would suck 'cause it doesn't exist. There is no human monster class; at character creation, a human must pick a PC/NPC class. What you're saying is to treat the template a mini class with one level, right? Okay, I got that. But the template class has no HD at that first level, so it can't be taken until the creature that wants to enter it has at least 1 HD. For a human, that means being a human (& being 1st level in a PC/NPC class) & then advancing to 2nd character level, at which point, when he levels up, instead of advancing in his class or a new class, he takes the stuff that the template offers (type change, ability modifiers, etc.). Point 2: No, you're arbitrarily saying that. How about this, Thoth or Set or whatever deity bestows the template on the character in his early childhood. He gets the human bonus feat and the feat for his human HD, then he picks up MoMF, trades in his crappy human racial HD, and goes to town.There is no crappy human HD to trade in at this point, because he already traded it in at character creation. Let me phrase it another way: when adding a template, simply build a monster as normal, & then add the template on top. (This is a direct quote from SS, page 111.) In this case, the monster is a human, so it must pick a class as it's first HD/level, then add the template on top. Point 3: Note the word core. Core is PHB/DMG/MM/SRD. Everything else, all those supplemental materials, they all provide options, feats, variant rules, what have you, that change the rules. If one uses the material from those books, then that material overrules the core material. As Savage Species has not yet been updated for 3.5, its material (aside from the statistics of various monsters) is still considered "okay."Unless material from it is superceded/updated by a 3.5 source, like the MM does in this case. Point 4: The Divine Minion has the feats requisite before he enters MoMF. The rules for templates and such are given in Savage Species. You simply make Divine Minion a 1 level monster class that gets no abilities other than those from the template. Game over. Then you trade the HD in. It's like the rules for creating Aasimars and Tieflings as level 1, classless characters.The divine minion template has no HD to trade in; by virtue of its LA, a creature with it must be 2nd character level (or more, depending on the patron god). It must be applied to either a character with class levels or monster with HD. A human is not a monster with HD; a human must pick a class as it's first HD. BTW, where is this material for aasimar & tieflings without class levels? Yeah, I know I sound like a broken record, but my point stands: the 3.5 MM specifically prohibits humanoids with 1 HD from actually using that HD, as it is traded in at character creation, before the template is added on. And the DMG specifically prohibits entering a PrC before its prerequisites are fulfilled the level before. NineInchNall, after reading the text from page 176 of the DMG, how can a character enter a PrC at 1st level, when he has no level before that to gain the prerequisites? :confused:
Idontknow 02-23-05, 08:49 PM	sorry to interrupt , but were is Divine Minion from ?
corvusnex 02-23-05, 08:54 PM	Why not just settle on: Human Divine Minion (of Thoth, Isis or any other the other +1 LA gods) Ranger 1/Master of Many Forms 10/Nature's Warrior 5/Warshaper 4 The 1 level of ranger gives decent skills, decent weapons and armor proficiency, +1 BAB, and Track. It also satisfies those pesky GMs that insist that the Divine Minion start out as something else (in this case, a human Ranger) before adding the template. Pay off the +1 LA using the payback rules in Unearthed Arcana. At level 20: +16 BAB 26 HD while Wild Shaped Immunity to Fear, Stunning, Critical Hits and Transmutations ...among other things. Ability to transform into Gargantuan thru Diminutive: humanoids (good for spying/secret identity), monstrous humanoids, giants (Firbolg is a good choice), aberrations (any number of these are good), fey, oozes (Living Spell [props to whoever came up with this idea first], and dragons. I'm trying this build out right now, and I've decided to go Vow of Poverty to: 1. Make the character simpler (no pesky gear to worry about) 2. Bonuses apply while wild shaped 3. Role-playing benefits. The build is incredibly simple, and although it takes advantage of a loophole in a recently-created racial template, it actually pretty much balances out with the rest of a standard adventuring party by level 20. It's no worse than Dweomerkeepers of Mystra, Hulking Hurlers, or any number of power builds. They all have fairly easily-exploitable weaknesses. Corvusnex
corvusnex 02-23-05, 08:57 PM	sorry to interrupt , but were is Divine Minion from ? It's in the recent Articles (Magic Books of Faerun: Hate of the Cobra) section of the Forgotten Realms web site. Check this link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a
NineInchNall 02-24-05, 01:18 AM	You mistook my meanin', suh. ;) Here's the Divine Minion Class as I would draw it up: ECL HD Special 1 1d8 Bonus Feat, Immunity to Fear 2 1d8 Wild Shape When the character hits level three, he trades in his human(oid) hit die, its BAB, its saves, and its skills. He replaces this with the HD of his first class. He is now DM2/MoMF1. However, since the source of half of the ECL 2 from his Divine Minion Class was its humanoid hit die, and that's now gone, his ECL is not 3. It gets dropped to 2 again. His XP total drops to the minimum to be level 2 (1000). So now he has to gain level three again. What you're saying is to treat the template a mini class with one level, right? Okay, I got that. But the template class has no HD at that first level, so it can't be taken until the creature that wants to enter it has at least 1 HD. For a human, that means being a human (& being 1st level in a PC/NPC class) & then advancing to 2nd character level, at which point, when he levels up, instead of advancing in his class or a new class, he takes the stuff that the template offers (type change, ability modifiers, etc.). Yeah, I know I sound like a broken record, but my point stands: the 3.5 MM specifically prohibits humanoids with 1 HD from actually using that HD, as it is traded in at character creation, before the template is added on. And the DMG specifically prohibits entering a PrC before its prerequisites are fulfilled the level before. As I've said a few times now, ;) the problem with that excerpt of the DMG is that it is actually inconsistent with material it presents within its own covers. The lycanthrope template, for example, uses humanoid hit dice in its description. It further goes on to say that the hit dice are "the same as the base creature plus those of the base animal." By your reasoning, the were-blahs presented should have varying class hit dice. All have humanoid (human) hit dice. Hence, a whole lot of poop. Silly WotC. :rolleyes: It's like how the SRD/DMG says that Regeneration requires a Constitution score. Unfortunately, you just have to look at the Atropal to see a contradiction of that. Which leads to a weird question: since regeneration treats all damage as subdual, and undead are immune to subdual, are undead with regeneration immune to any damage that doesn't penetrate their regeneration? Something to think about. EDIT: Level-0 Aasimar, among others: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
jedrious 02-24-05, 04:55 AM	guys PHB 3.5 clearly states the order in which a chatacter advances in levels, clearly stating that class level is chosen first making it impossible to enter a prc at the level in which you obtain the requisite feat(s)
khaalis 02-24-05, 09:55 AM	Just a slightly off topic thought here... What if this was to be a Gestalt? What would the best other class half be?
foxylady 02-24-05, 10:02 AM	guys PHB 3.5 clearly states the order in which a chatacter advances in levels, clearly stating that class level is chosen first making it impossible to enter a prc at the level in which you obtain the requisite feat(s) The Minion's first level is its LA, its second level is MoMF, so that restriction is satisfied.
Jeremymc 02-24-05, 10:02 AM	Point 3: Note the word core. Core is PHB/DMG/MM/SRD. THE SRD IS NOT CORE. ONLY THE PHB, DMG and MM 3 ARE CORE. I'm tired of people posting incomplete, or ridiculously summarized texts from the SRD as if they were taken from the Player's handbook. There is no reason for me to trust the SRD text, there is no reason for me to use the SRD text, and anytime someone types the acronym SRD, I'll just ask them for the Player's reference.
AlienFromBeyond 02-24-05, 10:19 AM	Just a slightly off topic thought here... What if this was to be a Gestalt? What would the best other class half be? Druid, as then you would start getting a lot of Wild Shape HD, I think. If not, classes who's abilities you get no matter your form *shrug*. A spellcaster/psionicist perhaps.
NineInchNall 02-24-05, 02:01 PM	Whoa, Jeremymc dude! Did someone get up on the wrong side of the bed today? :surrender Maybe pick a deity that is chaotic good ... pick up warlock as the other half. Wheee! With a vow of poverty this would be the pinnacle of nastiness. Or maybe a warmage, to supplement your nasty nastiness with a little blasting.
Interested2 02-24-05, 04:45 PM	NineInchNail - no, he's just a troll. Back on topic - warlock is indeed a good idea, but I'm thinking nay to VoP. Why? Simple. Necklace of Natural Weapons attached to a wilding clasp. Attacks just got a whole lot nastier.
Alratan 02-24-05, 06:27 PM	The prime reason to say no to VoP is the Amulet of Wildshape. If pressed, I would go with a: Minion of Thoth Human Human Paragon 1/MoMF 10/Warshpaer 2/Nature's Warrior 5/Warshaper 2 using LA buyback. Taking Adaptive Learning as a flaw feat, and dumping the speed increasing Wild feat, delaying Improved Assume Supernatural Ability by two levels. This gives you good skills as well as all the rest.
saucercrab 02-24-05, 06:57 PM	You mistook my meanin', suh. ;) Here's the Divine Minion Class as I would draw it up: ECL HD Special 1 1d8 Bonus Feat, Immunity to Fear 2 1d8 Wild Shape When the character hits level three, he trades in his human(oid) hit die, its BAB, its saves, and its skills. He replaces this with the HD of his first class. He is now DM2/MoMF1. However, since the source of half of the ECL 2 from his Divine Minion Class was its humanoid hit die, and that's now gone, his ECL is not 3. It gets dropped to 2 again. His XP total drops to the minimum to be level 2 (1000). So now he has to gain level three again.Okay, I understand a bit where you're coming from. A bit. ;) But (& here I go again), the template has no HD; it must be applied to a base creature. If the base creaure is a human, he has already traded in his humanoid HD for a PC/NPC class; this was done at character creation. (Remember that part I quoted from SS where it says to apply a template after building a creature normally?) What you're saying is to modify the divine minion template to include an actual HD in it. That'd be a house rule. As I've said a few times now, ;) the problem with that excerpt of the DMG is that it is actually inconsistent with material it presents within its own covers. The lycanthrope template, for example, uses humanoid hit dice in its description. It further goes on to say that the hit dice are "the same as the base creature plus those of the base animal." By your reasoning, the were-blahs presented should have varying class hit dice. All have humanoid (human) hit dice. Hence, a whole lot of poop. Silly WotC. :rolleyes:Uh, did you happen to miss in the lycanthrope descriptions where it says that the template was applied to a 1st level human warrior? Looks to me like each human lycanthrope has at least one level in a PC/NPC class. And what does that example have to do with the rules for entering a PrC? It's like how the SRD/DMG says that Regeneration requires a Constitution score. Unfortunately, you just have to look at the Atropal to see a contradiction of that. Which leads to a weird question: since regeneration treats all damage as subdual, and undead are immune to subdual, are undead with regeneration immune to any damage that doesn't penetrate their regeneration? Something to think about. Oh, yeah, bring epic rules into the discussion. That book almost screams for a set of houserules to work with. :rolleyes: ;) (Although, I'd say yes, the atropal is immune to all damage that doesn't get by it's regeneration.) EDIT: Level-0 Aasimar, among others: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213aThanks, I remember reading it, but hadn't saved it. Rereading it, it says that your character can take racial class levels after its already been created. Using the duergar class as an example, you create an duergar fighter1. At this point, it's racial abilities include from where it lists the Con & Cha adjustments, to where it lists the favored class: fighter. It doesn't get the increased darkvision, immunities, invisibility (sp) & skill bonuses until it takes a level (well the only level) in the duergar class, which it can't do until second character level. At second level, it'll be a duergar ftr 1 (+1 LA), or an ECL of 2 (unless it just goes for ftr2 & holds off on the extra duergar abilities). What you didn't respond to includes: my quote from SS about templates being added on last & the 3.5 MM superceding the 3.25 SS. The Minion's first level is its LA, its second level is MoMF, so that restriction is satisfied.The minion template has no HD in & of itself. It can't be the first level. Going with what jedrious said, page 6 of the 3.5 PHB lists the steps of character creation (Level Advancement on page 58-59 has the same order for steps that appear in both processes). You'll notice that selecting a feat is about 5 steps after selecting a race & class. And using the rules for adding a template from SS (page 111), the template is quite a few more steps after the feat(s) have been selected. So, it's roll ability scores, then human, then [insert class], then a few more steps, then Alertness & Endurance, then, all the way at the end, after a few more steps, divine minion. You can't choose [insert class = master of many forms] until after the Alertness & Endurance, & the divine minion template. That means, wait 'til next level. In summary: There is no human monster class. The divine minion template has no inherent HD in it. Templates are added last in character creation. To enter a PrC, you must fulfill all the prerequisites before (level-wise) you want to enter it.
NineInchNall 02-24-05, 09:19 PM	For me it all comes down to one thing: it just bugs me to think that an infant would have a class. If the template were applied to an infant ... Oh, wait. I guess you have to go tell Thoth that he has to wait until the kid has a class level. :noway: Unless people are born with class levels. :nonono: In any case, I'll concede this one to you, :surrender since there's no way for me to win this one, as the RAW are tipped in your favor, even if common sense is in mine. ... Divine Minion sure feels like it should be able to replace the ... I'm going to stop. Just. Stop. But ... :tantrum: :censored: it, me! Stop this! Okay. I'm better now. Just start off with one level of monk, and it'll be all golden. *sigh* ... I still don't see why ... :headexplo ARGH! *tears out hair* It doesn't make sense! Why can't it just have a frackin' hit die? That's the stupidest rule I've ever read ... *rereads* There it is again. My brain just can't get itself around the stupidity. What makes humanoid hit dice so special that they can't be used on their own? Huh? That's right, no one knows. :banghead: I'm just, I mean, it's too ... :hoppingma
Sang-Drax 02-25-05, 01:52 PM	For the always-sweetie-thing Jeremymc: the srd is just the same as the PHB, without flashy stuff. If you - and only you - have a problem with it, too bad for you. You see, not anyone in here have instant access to the books, but many have access to the SRD in their PCs. I think you're asking a little too much of them to, when they arrive home, they make sure to quote a page of the PHB just for you, because you wouldn't trust the SRD. Give us a break, dude. Back to topic... doesn't the nature's warrior require 3rd level druidic casting?
Khazra Reborn 02-25-05, 03:55 PM	Surely the other side of the gestalt build would be somekind of rogue/daggerspell shaper? Im thinking you change form to kelvezu & make him a sneak attack monster!
Alratan 02-26-05, 07:01 AM	Back to topic... doesn't the nature's warrior require 3rd level druidic casting? No
Alratan 02-26-05, 07:46 AM	I think the best/most legal build would be: 1 Venerable Human Minion of Thoth 2 Human Paragon (choose useful skills as class skills). Alertness, Endurance, Able Learner (flaw), Lion's Pounce (flaw) 3 Master of Many Forms 4 Master of Many Forms Assume Supernatural Ability 5 Master of Many Forms 6 Master of Many Forms 7 Master of Many Forms Improved Assume Supernatural Ability 8 Master of Many Forms 9 Master of Many Forms 10 Master of Many Forms feat 11 Master of Many Forms 12 Master of Many Forms 13 Warshaper feat 14 Warshaper 15 Nature's Warrior 16 Nature's Warrior feat 17 Nature's Warrior 18 Nature's Warrior 19 Nature's Warrior feat 20 Warshaper If using LA buyback I'd go for another level of Warshaper. Depending on DM whim one could take Track as your 12th level (ECL 13) feat, but I don't think it is neccassary, as you can easily get it as a bonus feat from one of your unlimited simultaneous wildshapes. It does mean you no longer qualify for Nature's Warrior in Anti-magic zones, but seeing as you loose all of its class features in such places anyway, I wouldn't worry to much. This build is almost better than the previous one, despite delaying all of the benefits of the build by one level, it allows you to be a stand-in skill monkey as well (I'm sure I've seen a monstrous humanoid somewhere with natural trap-finding to top it off). As your physical stats are irrelevant you can start off with 8s in them, reduced to 2 due to your age, and put 15s into your mental stats (modified to 18 due to age). This gives you 9 skill points a level for the first 11 levels, and 7 therafter - which can be any skill thanks to the combination of adaptive learning and human paragon. Ability score increases should go to charisma, to fuel supernatural abilities.
saucercrab 02-26-05, 11:31 AM	For me it all comes down to one thing: it just bugs me to think that an infant would have a class. If the template were applied to an infant ... Oh, wait. I guess you have to go tell Thoth that he has to wait until the kid has a class level. :noway:After rereading the template (yet again), why would Thoth give the template to an untested creature? IMO (yes, I'm stating an opinion, YMMV), it's supposed to be a reward to devoted followers, who then become like low-powered Chosen, that are supposed to die if necessary. Unless people are born with class levels. :nonono:Eh, it's never been really detailed about when a single HD creature would trade it in for a class & it never really mattered. I always took it that they were treated as commoners until then. In any case, I'll concede this one to you, :surrender since there's no way for me to win this one, as the RAW are tipped in your favor, even if common sense is in mine. ... Divine Minion sure feels like it should be able to replace the ... I'm going to stop. Just. Stop.Common sense tells me that the template should be earned, & not slapped onto every Tom, Dick & Harry that joins a Mulhorandi church. (And the template has nothing to replace "the..." with.) But ... :tantrum: :censored: it, me! Stop this! Okay. I'm better now. Just start off with one level of monk, and it'll be all golden. *sigh* ... I still don't see why ... :headexplo ARGH! *tears out hair* It doesn't make sense! Why can't it just have a frackin' hit die? That's the stupidest rule I've ever read ... *rereads* There it is again. My brain just can't get itself around the stupidity. What makes humanoid hit dice so special that they can't be used on their own? Huh? That's right, no one knows. :banghead: I'm just, I mean, it's too ... :hoppingmaWow, you really like smileys. ;) Humans & elves & dwarves have never had racial HD as a standard option ('cept in Basic D&D for demihumans, where multiclassing wasn't standard). Another sacred cow, maybe (like up to 9th level spells, hit points, magic missile, etc.). Even if there was a human monster class, you'd have to decide to 1) keep it or 2) trade it in for a class, before feats & templates are gained. That & the rules for entering PrCs pretty much negates trying to enter the MoMF at 1st character level. Alratan, Nature's warrior is a tiny bit of a waste, as it's spellcasting ability goes unused. Those levels have to be applied to a spellcasting class that was entered before becoming a NW. I'd go for a HP 1/Drd 1/MoMF 10/War 4/NW 4; doesn't matter where druid shows up, as long as it's before NW (yeah, my group uses UA's LA buy-back rule). This takes advantage of BAB & base saves better. In epic levels, you can take those last levels of HP, War & NW. [Edit = Don't think Thoth allows druids; in that case, substitute with cleric.]
Alratan 02-26-05, 01:01 PM	I disagree, Nature's Warrior isn't a waste at all - each 1 HD you add to your wildshape limit is an amazing boost to your power and versatility. You also want to get the Nature's Warrior in there early, so that you can wildshape into high HD creatures asap. The 1 HD reduction in your Wildshape limit that is the cost of taking that druid level is in no way compensated for by getting 2nd level spells - the extra HD increases the range of forms with supernatural abilites as good as 9th level spells, with no pesky SR to worry about. If I did want the spells for some particular role-play reason, and was willing to accept the small power reduction, I'd personally go: Human Paragon 1/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 1/Nature's Warrior 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Nature's Warrior 4/Warshaper 2 Your build has a maximum Wildshape HD of 25, compared to a maximum of 26. This may not sound that much, but there are some very nice forms starting in the 20HD+ range, and it would hurt, particularly by delaying access for a level. At epic one has no choice but to contine MoMFs, as the increase in Wildshape HD limit is so broken.
saucercrab 02-26-05, 02:50 PM	Alratan, I said it was a tiny bit of a waste, & was only referring to lost spellcasting levels. Honestly, I don't see the problem with being 1-HD behind in wildshape choices at nonepic levels. :shrugs: In epic, you can take levels in MoMF as well as the other three classes I listed; human paragon especially (for the free feat & +2 to an ability). I wasn't inferring that you ignore MoMF's progression at all. Warshaper 5 might be a waste, though.
corvusnex 02-26-05, 03:24 PM	Do you get the BAB of the creature you Wild Shape into or do you keep your own BAB? If you keep your own BAB, then I think the best build would be to pick a class that gives a +1 BAB at 1st level. That way, once you complete MoMF 10, Nature's Warrior 5 and Warshaper 4 (assuming UA LA buyback), you finish the build with a BAB of 16, enough for 4 attacks per round. The Human Paragon, while excellent for skills, feats, and the +2 ability increase, doesn't help your BAB progression. If you get your wild shaped form's BAB, then I guess it's irrelevant what you do. Corvusnex
saucercrab 02-26-05, 03:30 PM	Iterative attacks aren't all that important when it comes to a creature using natural attacks. While there are a few forms that'd take advantage of it, there'll be lots more that use the whole claw/claw/bite routine. [Edit: Yes, you do keep your own BAB. You don't use the creature's.]
foxylady 02-26-05, 03:31 PM	Do you get the BAB of the creature you Wild Shape into or do you keep your own BAB? You keep your own BAB, but not getting 4 attacks/round isn't a handicap since you're usually using your form's natural attack routine rather than iterative (weapon) attacks.
Interested2 02-26-05, 03:32 PM	The real problem here is the lack of PrC's with wilding. :( Not sure as to the BAB.
Alratan 02-26-05, 05:10 PM	On the iterative attacks thing. Remember, you are going Warsahper, so you can grow loads of extra natural attacks. As a gargantuan fang dragon you have two claws, one bite, 2 wings, 1 tail, + tentacles, horn, core, slam, etc..., your iterative attacks are irrelevant, as you don't qulify for the rapidstrike chain, and your big str boosts make your + BAB to hit much less impotant.
Interested2 02-26-05, 05:17 PM	Morphic Weapons only allows you to enhance/create one type of weapon at a time. :-/
Alratan 02-27-05, 08:31 AM	No, Morphic Weapons allows you to create as many natural weapons as you want, you just have to spend a move action to make each one. You could spend a couple of weeks growing 10,000 tentacles if your DM permitted it - I would only permit a creature having as many of any natural attack routine as another creature of that form could have - 1 bite per head, 1 claw per arm, 1 gore per head, 8 tentacles (like a squid), and 1 slam.
Interested2 02-27-05, 08:35 AM	:eek: Not how I read it. Wow, this just got even MORE disgusting. :D
Alratan 02-27-05, 08:58 AM	Morphic Weapons are less useful than they first appear to making this a "fun" build" Th joy of playing this would be wandering around in harmless looking humanoid form, and then, as a free action, turning into a garganutan dragon after combat has started and wading in with Lion's Pounce after a charge, and then next round turning into somwthing with a nasty ranged Su abillity and letting that off, and next round turning into something else unpleasant as a feee action, etc, etc. Th multiple rounds neccassary to truely exploit Morphic Weapons is incompatible with this, as one dosen't want to spend 15-20 move actions powering up for combat, and one dosen't particularly want to walk around as a Gargantuan Fang Dragon with tentacles 24/7, although one could if one felt like being anti-social.
saucercrab 02-28-05, 08:03 PM	Alratan, I always thought that creating new natural attacks via Morphic Weapons was limited to the limbs that the current form had. So, using the example in the book, an ettin could grow claws (on each hand) & horns (on the head), because it has arms & heads; it doesn't have a tail, so a tail spike would be out. I have no clear-cut rules to back me up, but it's what makes sense to me. If your DM will allow the growing of new limbs, then what's to stop you from taking the Multiweapon feats? 'Cause you grow a new set of claw-tipped limbs, but they're from a dire ape. ;) Also, wouldn't you qualify for Rapidstrike while in dragon form? With wild shape, your type changes when you do (the only exception I can find is for the druid's elemental wild shape, but that's for a druid). Actually, this confuses me some:I would only permit a creature having as many of any natural attack routine as another creature of that form could have - 1 bite per head, 1 claw per arm, 1 gore per head, 8 tentacles (like a squid), and 1 slam.So you'd rule the limitations like I would, but you think the RAW supports the growing of extra limbs/appendages? :confused:
Alratan 03-01-05, 04:51 PM	The RAW imposes no limits on the physical possibility of the creature having the natural weapon, just that it is one of those in the table in the Monster Manual (so no wing attacks). You could grow extra clawed arms by the RAW, or an extra fanged mouth, but this would not neccessarily allow you to wield more weapons (as these arms would not neccassarily have hands with opposable thumbs, or sing in harmony with yourself, as the mouth would only consist of teeth and a jaw. Yes, you could qualify for Rapidstrike whilst in Dragon (or Aberration) form, , but you have so many attacks (at full BAB potentially thanks to multi-headed) that it is more efficient to spend the feats on other things, I think.
saucercrab 03-01-05, 08:41 PM	The RAW imposes no limits on the physical possibility of the creature having the natural weapon, just that it is one of those in the table in the Monster Manual (so no wing attacks).No wing attacks? Going by the descriptions of the attacks on pages 297 & 312, a wing attack could be a slam or claw attack (the descriptions are a bit vague). After all, dragons, wyverns, pit fiends & belkers have wing attacks (the wing attack for dragons even states that a dragon can slam opponents with its wings). A wing attack should prob' be another type of slam or claw, just like a glabrezu's pincers are prob' claw attacks. You could grow extra clawed arms by the RAW, or an extra fanged mouth, but this would not neccessarily allow you to wield more weapons (as these arms would not neccassarily have hands with opposable thumbs, or sing in harmony with yourself, as the mouth would only consist of teeth and a jaw.The RAW doesn't say extra clawed arms or extra fanged mouths; it only says you can grow natural attacks such as claws or fangs. You're extrapolating from the description. How do you decide how many extra limbs & mouths a creature can have? You'd allow a divine minion MoMF/warshaper to shift into the form of a gargoyle, & grow 50 extra clawed arms, but not use it's wings to make slam attacks? It's easier & simpler to limit natural attacks to the existing limbs of the current form. Allowing extra limbs for extra attacks opens up a can of worms; if these limbs can be used to make natural attacks, then why can't they propel the creature faster (better movement rate), or in different ways (new movement types like burrowing or climbing)? Yes, you could qualify for Rapidstrike whilst in Dragon (or Aberration) form, , but you have so many attacks (at full BAB potentially thanks to multi-headed) that it is more efficient to spend the feats on other things, I think.I agree, there are better feats to choose.
Alratan 03-04-05, 02:33 PM	No wing attacks? Going by the descriptions of the attacks on pages 297 & 312, a wing attack could be a slam or claw attack (the descriptions are a bit vague). After all, dragons, wyverns, pit fiends & belkers have wing attacks (the wing attack for dragons even states that a dragon can slam opponents with its wings). A wing attack should prob' be another type of slam or claw, just like a glabrezu's pincers are prob' claw attacks. A wing attack is a special type of natural attack defined within the dragon entry in the MM. As it does not appear in the general section on natural attacks referenced by the Warshaper description, by the RAW you can't grow that kind of natural attacks. The RAW doesn't say extra clawed arms or extra fanged mouths; it only says you can grow natural attacks such as claws or fangs. You're extrapolating from the description. How do you decide how many extra limbs & mouths a creature can have? You'd allow a divine minion MoMF/warshaper to shift into the form of a gargoyle, & grow 50 extra clawed arms, but not use it's wings to make slam attacks? It's easier & simpler to limit natural attacks to the existing limbs of the current form. Allowing extra limbs for extra attacks opens up a can of worms; if these limbs can be used to make natural attacks, then why can't they propel the creature faster (better movement rate), or in different ways (new movement types like burrowing or climbing)? I agree with you, and that is the house rule I make - however, I would say it is a house rule.
Jeremymc 03-04-05, 03:28 PM	What? That's insane. You can't interpret "Morphic Weapons" as allowing you extra attacks. All it says is that you can grow natural weapons. That's it. IT mentions nothing at all about growing extra limbs, or extra weapons on the same limb... etc... The rule also DOESN'T specify that your grown natural weapons AREN'T +10 Adamantine Demon bane vorpal weapons of speed. Are you going to assume that you can grow those weapons because the rule doesn't specify you CAN'T? That's honestly a really terrible way to go about interpreting rules. If the ability were meant to grant you extra limbs, it would say so EXPLICITLY. Or it would say something like the MasTran's ability that specifies you can add on the "attack type" from a different animal. "Attack type" is extra limbs. Natural weapons are just natural weapons.
Alratan 03-04-05, 06:44 PM	You can't interpret "Morphic Weapons" as allowing you extra attacks. Why?, as far as I can see this is the whole point of the ability. If you grow horns for a gore and fangs for a bite, then you can make additional attacks as part of a full attack. All I say is that Morphic Weapons specifies that you may grow the natural weapons found at the reference in the MM. If a Warshaper without arms took this ability, by the RAW it could grow a claw with which to make a natural attack. I dopn't see growing extra claw attacks as being different. The rule also DOESN'T specify that your grown natural weapons AREN'T +10 Adamantine Demon bane vorpal weapons of speed. Are you going to assume that you can grow those weapons because the rule doesn't specify you CAN'T? Funnily enough I can't find any reference to +10 Adamantine Demon bane vorpal natural weapons of speed on page 296 of the Monster Manual, which is the reference given for the nature of the weapons grown. You can't grow these because the type and nature of the weapons you can grow are defined there. Even if it was left undefined, you still wouldn't be able to. However, it directly sates that you may grow natural weapons, which may not neccassarily be ones you previosuly possessed, as defined in the given reference. Claw, bite, gore, tentacle, etc, are on the list, and hence you can grow any of these as a move action - not because the rules fail to permit you, but because they actively say that yopu can. If I run out of arms, I can still grow more claws, because the rules say that I may do so as a move action, unrestricted by anatomicall concerns
Fenris Frost 03-04-05, 08:53 PM	Great idea as to the templates, however I expect the DM will nix it. And man, this rules-hole just keeps getting bigger. :) 'Cuz we keep prodding it and sticking our fingers in it and pulling it to suit whatever we want. Isn't it great? Just imagine what the WotC team could do with this.
Alratan 03-05-05, 06:22 PM	To return to the point of this thread, the gibbering orb is one of the best forms to assume - it has 27 HD, and the following SU ability: Eye Rays (Su): Two dozen of the eyes can each produce a magical ray each round, with each eye emulating a spell from among the list of spells below as if cast by a 27th-level caster. The save DCs, where applicable, are 16 + spell level. A gibbering orb has no directional limitations on where it can point its eye rays, because the eyes orbiting around its body drift and float wherever needed. However, a gibbering orb can never aim more than five rays at any single target, due to limitations of aiming. All rays have a range of 150 feet. Each of these effects functions as a ray, regardless of the normal parameters of the spell it resembles. That is, each is usable against a single target and requires a ranged touch attack. The eye rays are: cone of cold, disintegrate, dominate monster, energy drain, feeblemind, finger of death, flesh to stone, greater dispel magic, harm, hold monster, horrid wilting, implosion, inflict critical wounds, lightning bolt, magic missile, mage’s disjunction, irresistible dance, polymorph any object, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray, slay living, and temporal stasis. This is a single Su ability, so Assume Supernatural Ability would grant it all. Assuming this form requires using one of the magic items which grant +wildshape HD, but if you use both it would potentially be availiable from 9th level.
saucercrab 03-05-05, 09:47 PM	A wing attack is a special type of natural attack defined within the dragon entry in the MM. As it does not appear in the general section on natural attacks referenced by the Warshaper description, by the RAW you can't grow that kind of natural attacks.It's not a special type of attack for the other creatures I listed. If you do follow the rules on page 296 for creating a monster, then you can't create one that can use it's wings for attacking. The following two quotes... Slam or Tentacle: The suggested damage value for any blunt attack the creature might have (punches, constriction, slaps, & the like). Claw or Sting: The suggested damage value for any attack the creature makes by scratching, tearing, raking, or poking with an appendage.Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing & slashing damage. Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage....are vague enough for me to include wings as either slam- or claw-type attacks for certain types of creatures. I agree with you, and that is the house rule I make - however, I would say it is a house rule.Thing is, for that to be an actual rule, you'd have to house-rule what the limits/restrictions would be, as there are no rules that list the number of limbs per creature per size. Jeremymc's & my reading of the text needs no extra guidelines & is less prone to abuse. I don't see you coming around to our way of thinking on this, so we'll have to agree to disagree & leave it at that.
Alratan 03-06-05, 06:36 AM	...are vague enough for me to include wings as either slam- or claw-type attacks for certain types of creatures. I agree there, and would allow using a wing to make a slam attack. I was saying that these attacks would not be wing or tail slap attacks as referred to in the dragon entry.
saucercrab 03-08-05, 06:04 PM	I agree there, and would allow using a wing to make a slam attack. I was saying that these attacks would not be wing or tail slap attacks as referred to in the dragon entry.Ohhhh, okay, sure. :) I was just using dragons as one example of a creature that has wing attacks.
Jeremymc 03-08-05, 11:26 PM	Why?, as far as I can see this is the whole point of the ability. If you grow horns for a gore and fangs for a bite, then you can make additional attacks as part of a full attack. All I say is that Morphic Weapons specifies that you may grow the natural weapons found at the reference in the MM. If a Warshaper without arms took this ability, by the RAW it could grow a claw with which to make a natural attack. I dopn't see growing extra claw attacks as being different. Funnily enough I can't find any reference to +10 Adamantine Demon bane vorpal natural weapons of speed on page 296 of the Monster Manual, which is the reference given for the nature of the weapons grown. Yes. You won't find that weapon. Because it doesn't exist. My statement was a satire of your ridiculous interpretation that the Morphic Weapon ability allows you to grow EXTRA attacks. By exaggerating the fact that you're consciously misinterpreting the rules in a way that grants you an extreme amount of power, I reveal your original position to be absurd. It's a wonderful and very antiquated device, but still a good one. If I grow 32 sets of claws, but only have two appendages capable of attacking, I can't simply get 30 extra claw attacks. If the ability were meant to be that powerful, it would explicitly mention the ability to grow new limbs and to get new attacks. All it mentions are WEAPONS. It does NOT mention limbs. It says an Ettin can grow claws or horns, but never does it say that he can thusly use both in the same round. And considering how powerful that interpretation is, if the designers meant for it to be interpreted that way, they would have made it EXPLICIT. If I pick up 4 swords, your argument tells me that I can wield two in my hands, one with my mouth and one in between my bum cheeks, thus getting 4 attacks per round. That's patently absurd. Why is it absurd? Because my HAVING wepons doesn't entail my being able to USE those weapons. Similary, you can cover your armless body with 153 000 claws, but if the form you take only has two natural attacks, you're only getting two claw attacks, buddy.
Alratan 03-09-05, 08:54 AM	My statement was a satire of your ridiculous interpretation that the Morphic Weapon ability allows you to grow EXTRA attacks. If I have +20 BAB and am in ettin form wielding a greatsword I could normally make 4 iterative attacks as part of a full attack action. By your interpretation, I could use Morphic Weapons to grow a horn natural weapon, but would not be able to use it as a natural secondary attack to make an additional attack as part of a a full attack action, as I am not specifically permitted to do so This is ludicrous, and makes the ability virtually useless - why should you bother growing the horns in the first place. If I grow 32 sets of claws, but only have two appendages capable of attacking, I can't simply get 30 extra claw attacks. If the ability were meant to be that powerful, it would explicitly mention the ability to grow new limbs and to get new attacks. All it mentions are WEAPONS. It does NOT mention limbs. It says an Ettin can grow claws or horns, but never does it say that he can thusly use both in the same round. And considering how powerful that interpretation is, if the designers meant for it to be interpreted that way, they would have made it EXPLICIT. In fact it says As a move action, a warshaper may grow natural weapons such as fangs or claws, allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage according to the size of the new form... explicitly allowing you to attack with the natural weapon you have just grown. On the limbs issue, it does not say you grow a new limb, it says you may grow a natural weapon, with which you may attack. If you grow 32 claws, you may make 32 more natural claw attacks - whether you have 32 more limbs is up to DM adjudication - as it is not specified. Consider the case with multiple bite attacks - rather than growing new heads, you grow new biting maws all over your body. Consider if you have an ability that says, "as a move action, a XXX may create a stone which emits light as a candle" - would you argue that once you had used the ability you could never use it again whilst the first stone existed - of course not. Why should it be different to the warshaper and its natural weapons. If I pick up 4 swords, your argument tells me that I can wield two in my hands, one with my mouth and one in between my bum cheeks, thus getting 4 attacks per round. That's patently absurd. Why is it absurd? Because my HAVING wepons doesn't entail my being able to USE those weapons. Similary, you can cover your armless body with 153 000 claws, but if the form you take only has two natural attacks, you're only getting two claw attacks, buddy. Clearly this is a different case - the rules say that to wield a manufactured weapon, you must have an appropriate appendage. The rules make no limit as to the use of natural weapons that you possess.
Jeremymc 03-09-05, 09:06 PM	If I have +20 BAB and am in ettin form wielding a greatsword I could normally make 4 iterative attacks as part of a full attack action. By your interpretation, I could use Morphic Weapons to grow a horn natural weapon, but would not be able to use it as a natural secondary attack to make an additional attack as part of a a full attack action, as I am not specifically permitted to do so Of course it shouldn't allow you to get extra attacks. That's completely insane. It's even more insane to believe that you can get an unlimited number of natural attacks. Sure, you can grow a set of horns, and there's nothing saying that you can't use those horns 4 times to provide iterative attacks, or split your attacks 2 sword/2 horn if you want. All the ability promises is the ability to grow weapons. It's not terrific. That's why it's only a 2nd level ability out of a 5 level PrC. On the limbs issue, it does not say you grow a new limb, it says you may grow a natural weapon, with which you may attack. YES. With which you MAY attack. That's ALL IT SAYS. It doesn't say "with which you may attack as a secondary weapon", or "with which you may attack in addition to your regular number of attacks". If you grow 32 claws, you may make 32 more natural claw attacks - NO. YOU CAN'T. whether you have 32 more limbs is up to DM adjudication NO. IT'S NOT. What is up to the DM however, is whether a form with only 4 legs can grow more than 4 claws. If I were any DM existing on this planet, I know the decision I'd make. Perhaps you're thinking some shadowy DM from the nether realms, which you bribe with human blood to allow your character these powers... Consider the case with multiple bite attacks - rather than growing new heads, you grow new biting maws all over your body. WHAT? That's ridiculous. Look carefully at the text for the Master Transmogrifist. His 10th level ability (10!!!) allows him to add "one attack type" on TO his chosen shape. The text explicitly says that this grants him additional attacks, and even provides an example to back it up. You're saying that the Warshaper's second level ability, which doesn't mention additional attack at all, which doesn't provide any examples of additional attacks, provides more benefit than the Transmogrifist's 10th level ability. You're basically trying to carve out a rule-hole with EXTREMELY dubious semantics. Not even semantics. A sort of wierd, greedy pseudo-logic. You're trying to carve new commandments into stone with a plastic spoon. Clearly this is a different case - the rules say that to wield a manufactured weapon, you must have an appropriate appendage. The rules make no limit as to the use of natural weapons that you possess. And now you're basically advocating the fact that the game designers wanted this class, and only this class, to have an unlimited number of attacks contrary to all possible evidence.
Alratan 03-10-05, 11:48 AM	You say: YES. With which you MAY attack. That's ALL IT SAYS. It doesn't say "with which you may attack as a secondary weapon", or "with which you may attack in addition to your regular number of attacks". the Srd says: When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. and Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon. The ability says: As a move action, a warshaper may grow natural weapons such as fangs or claws, allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage according to the size of the new form... Whilst from these combination of quotes it is unclear as to whether a warshape can combine secondary natural attacks with a primary attack with a manufactured weapon - as their is no creature entry to explicitly support it, and is so subject to DM fiat (note that whatever happens, the ettin could only ever make one gore attack with natural weapon of horns it grew..) - it is quite clear from my first quote from the SRD that if the warshaper grows multiple natural weapons, one type of them will be primary, and the rest secondary - and hnece they can all be used during a full attack action.
Jeremymc 03-10-05, 12:17 PM	But that argument is complete sophistry! Of course the SRD doesn't take into accout the specific abilities of the Warshaper! If it had to take into account specific cases, it would be so long and unwieldy as to be ridiculous. The SRD is referring only to monsters with multiple attack types, why would you assume that that refers to your wild-shaped War Shaper? I'll tell you right now that it doesn't. The only way that you can make this argument is to point out the fact that "there's nothing forbidding me to do it". But that's not how DND works. You cannot write a game system that specifically forbids every ridiculous case of abuse that a player can come up with for again, it would be so long as to be ridiculous. All the designers do is tell you what you CAN do with a certain ability. And nothing about the "morphic weapon" ability tells you that you CAN get extra attacks. However, there ARE countless OTHER abilities that specifically tell you when you get an extra attack (haste spell, FB, Bladesinger, Master Transmogrifist). Morphic weapons doesn't mention extra attacks at all, and you're expecting us to just believe that somehow, that's what the game designers INTENDED? You'll also be happy to note that Customer Service tells me the ability grants you NO NEW ATTACKS. You can grow as many weapons as you like, and you still have only the amout of attacks that your form grants.
Alratan 03-10-05, 12:38 PM	Of course the SRD doesn't take into accout the specific abilities of the Warshaper! If it had to take into account specific cases, it would be so long and unwieldy as to be ridiculous. The SRD is referring only to monsters with multiple attack types, why would you assume that that refers to your wild-shaped War Shaper? I'll tell you right now that it doesn't. Think how stupid what you've just said is. Of course the Srd wasn't written to take account of the Warshaper - the Warshaper is written with the SRD in mind. In this case, the Warshaper is a "monster with multiple natural attacks" so of course it applies - you're argument seems to be not that I'm using a loop hole, but that you want to disallow the only section of rules that applies here - the section of rules that is explicitly referenced in the Warshaper description. In this case, the Warshaper is "a monster with multiple attack types" so of course the rule applies. I repeat: When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. If the warshaper assumes the form of a creature with existing natural weapons, and then grows another one - say in lion form growing horns - it is quite explicit that this means it would get an additional secondary attack.
saucercrab 03-11-05, 06:43 PM	I have to side with Alratan on this one. Although I think there are limits in the warshaper's ability to grow natural weapons, any that are grown should be able to be used in an attack routine (including using them as secondary weapons if the primary attack is with a wielded weapon gaining iterative attacks). Growing a set of claws on each of a pair of arms, & fangs in the mouth should allow a character to use the claw/claw/bite attack routine. Honestly, what's the point of growing natural attacks if they can't be used? :confused:
Jeremymc 03-12-05, 02:55 AM	I have to side with Alratan on this one. Although I think there are limits in the warshaper's ability to grow natural weapons, any that are grown should be able to be used in an attack routine (including using them as secondary weapons if the primary attack is with a wielded weapon gaining iterative attacks). Growing a set of claws on each of a pair of arms, & fangs in the mouth should allow a character to use the claw/claw/bite attack routine. Honestly, what's the point of growing natural attacks if they can't be used? :confused: "What's the point of growing natural attacks if they can't be used?".... Honestly... that's not even a very sensible argument. The point is that you are basically armed at all times, with whatever form of attack you wish, in whatever form you like. If you're fighting skeletons and you need a bashing tail attack, you grow a bashing tail attack. And it also basically monkey-grips ALL of your natural weapons. If you're in tiger form, you're essentially monkey-gripping four claws and a bite. That's a pretty frigging good ability. Hmmmm..... Let's try to boil down the pointless, ludircrous arguments according to RAW. In order of importance. First questions: Do the entries in the SRD about CREATURES count for CHARACTERS? Especially entries about Creature natural attacks. First Answer: No, characters are characters even while polymorphed and CREATURES are entries from the Monstrous Manual. You can't apply the SRD text to character classes. Therefore that whole text about monsters and secondary weapons doesn't matter at all. First RAW support: The Alter Self spell, upon which all of everything is built, says that additional natural weapons don't grant you any more attacks than your character has to begin with. It also states that your character keeps his regular, iterative BAB. Second RAW support: The Polymorph spell doesn't state anything other than that. No new abilities. No new attacks. Still relies on character BAB for number of attacks, and doesn't make Secondary attacks automatic. It does give you EXTRAORDINARY attacks, but not regular, Secondary weapons (not automatically, at least. I presume you could use them with the Multiattack feat chain, or TWF, or whatever). Third non-RAW support: Skip's article about Polymorphing shows the example of a wizard (BAB+4) polymorphing into a Troll (2 Primary claw attacks and 1 secondary claw attack), and getting only a single claw attack because his natural BAB is so poor. These alone seem to prove that a polymorphed character only gets his regular BAB. There's a little confusion with entries for the Master Transmogrifist, which shows his "forms" as having all sorts of natural attacks even though the sample character's natural BAB is only +5. Although Complete Arcane is NOT core RAW, I've still sent off to Custserv to see what they have to say about this discrepancy. So according to the texts in the PHB, and assorted stuff from Skip's article, I'm almost positive that the Polymorphed mage retains his own BAB, and attacks with the animal form primary weapon using that BAB. If this is true, which it seems to be, it'll cut the power of my MasTran builds down somewhat, which is a shame. I'll be sad to lose my 22 attacks per round. But if that's the way RAW goes, that's the way RAW goes. He'll still have maybe.... 14 or 15 attacks total, since he still has the power to attack a whole "ATTACK TYPE" to his form. So three iterative attacks, and 12 hydra bite attacks... Will post more when I know more, but already, these insane arguments about the Warshaper seem to have been reduced to quivering Jello.
Interested2 03-12-05, 07:08 AM	Edited.
Jeremymc 03-12-05, 12:17 PM	Okay. For real. If you KNOW BEFOREHAND that your post is going to violate the COC, then DON'T POST IT. Altaran's enough of a jerk for everyone reading this. Not to mention me, who's only 20% less insulting than he is.
jedrious 03-12-05, 12:25 PM	Okay. For real. If you KNOW BEFOREHAND that your post is going to violate the COC, then DON'T POST IT. Altaran's enough of a jerk for everyone reading this. Not to mention me, who's only 20% less insulting than he is. you need to learn 3 things before I'll even begin to respect what you say Jeremy 1. you need to learn how to read the entire ability in question 2. you need to learn how to interact with others in a civil manner 3. you need to learn to accept the fact that noone knows everything, including you, me, custserv, and the game designers, if any one of us knew everything there would be no point in discussion with anyone but that person
Jeremymc 03-12-05, 12:40 PM	I don't need to to respect what I say. I don't CARE if you respect what I say. Each ridiculous question I answer is for myself ONLY. The more I answer, the more I learn about these game rules. Call it a hobby. Busting up this little infinite Warshaper trick and building my MasTran builds has forced me to learn and keep learning about how Polymorph works. In fact, before today I would have claimed that Polymorphing into a creature gave you that creature's natural attacks. Now, I think I might be wrong about that. But the Alter Self RAW explicitly states that you DON'T get the creature's natural attacks, as does Skip's clarifications. If I hadn't answered these questions, I'd never know that. I hadn't read things carefully enough. And if I'm going to sit around and let other people call me a jerk when it is the absolute truth, then I feel that I also have the ability to call others a jerk when it is the absolute truth. Fair play is fair. I dish it out, but I also take it.
Interested2 03-12-05, 01:08 PM	No, you're just a troll.
Alratan 03-13-05, 08:48 AM	Jermemymc - now you've insulted me, I think I know all I need to to rate your opions. One last time: First questions: Do the entries in the SRD about CREATURES count for CHARACTERS? Especially entries about Creature natural attacks. So your argument is that a character isn't a creature? First RAW support: The Alter Self spell, upon which all of everything is built, says that additional natural weapons don't grant you any more attacks than your character has to begin with. It also states that your character keeps his regular, iterative BAB. Second RAW support: The Polymorph spell doesn't state anything other than that. No new abilities. No new attacks. Still relies on character BAB for number of attacks, and doesn't make Secondary attacks automatic. It does give you EXTRAORDINARY attacks, but not regular, Secondary weapons (not automatically, at least. I presume you could use them with the Multiattack feat chain, or TWF, or whatever). Third non-RAW support: Skip's article about Polymorphing shows the example of a wizard (BAB+4) polymorphing into a Troll (2 Primary claw attacks and 1 secondary claw attack), and getting only a single claw attack because his natural BAB is so poor. One question. Where does the Morphic Weapons ability reference any of the spells in the Alter Self chain? Indeed, the ability explicitly allows you to attack with the natural weapons you have grown. Secondly - you are wrong about Alter Self and natural attacks: You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. If a wizard becomes something with two claws, a bite, and horns, then the first clause applies - gaining natural weapons - but as you have the same number of limbs, the second clause most certainly does not. It is claerly intended to apply to wielding multiple manufactured weapons - but even disregarding this, it doesen't matter in this case. You are also wrong about Alter Self and iterative BAB, the spell does not mention either of those two words once.
foxylady 03-13-05, 02:51 PM	So your argument is that a character isn't a creature? Precisely. The target of Hold Monster is "1 living creature". Is he seriously arguing that Hold Monster wouldn't work on a character?
saucercrab 03-14-05, 06:37 PM	"What's the point of growing natural attacks if they can't be used?".... Honestly... that's not even a very sensible argument.A rhetorical question, not an arguement. The point is that you are basically armed at all times, with whatever form of attack you wish, in whatever form you like. If you're fighting skeletons and you need a bashing tail attack, you grow a bashing tail attack. And it also basically monkey-grips ALL of your natural weapons. If you're in tiger form, you're essentially monkey-gripping four claws and a bite. That's a pretty frigging good ability.What does Monkey-grip have to do with it? That's a feat that deals with hand-held weapons. :confused: First questions: Do the entries in the SRD about CREATURES count for CHARACTERS? Especially entries about Creature natural attacks. First Answer: No, characters are characters even while polymorphed and CREATURES are entries from the Monstrous Manual. You can't apply the SRD text to character classes. Therefore that whole text about monsters and secondary weapons doesn't matter at all.What about player character races that have natural attacks? What's the difference between a dwarf in the MM & a lizardfolk in the MM? If I'm playing a lizardfolk rogue, he's not a character? First RAW support: The Alter Self spell, upon which all of everything is built, says that additional natural weapons don't grant you any more attacks than your character has to begin with. It also states that your character keeps his regular, iterative BAB.What Alratan said. Second RAW support: The Polymorph spell doesn't state anything other than that. No new abilities. No new attacks. Still relies on character BAB for number of attacks, and doesn't make Secondary attacks automatic. It does give you EXTRAORDINARY attacks, but not regular, Secondary weapons (not automatically, at least. I presume you could use them with the Multiattack feat chain, or TWF, or whatever).Again, what Alratan said. Third non-RAW support: Skip's article about Polymorphing shows the example of a wizard (BAB+4) polymorphing into a Troll (2 Primary claw attacks and 1 secondary claw attack), and getting only a single claw attack because his natural BAB is so poor.And Skip seems to have made that rule up, because it doesn't appear anywhere in the Core. Not in alter self, nor polymorph, nor shapechange. Iterative attacks do not interact with natural attack sequences in that way. These alone seem to prove that a polymorphed character only gets his regular BAB. There's a little confusion with entries for the Master Transmogrifist, which shows his "forms" as having all sorts of natural attacks even though the sample character's natural BAB is only +5. Although Complete Arcane is NOT core RAW, I've still sent off to Custserv to see what they have to say about this discrepancy.And ask CustServ the same question twice, & get two or more different answers. They are reliably unreliable. ;)