Best Gestalt Gish Build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Gestalt Gish Build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ringmereth
08-11-05, 09:29 PM Alright. I'm joining a 2nd level FR game in which we're playing Gestalt characters with the limitation of sticking with 2 classes for the duration of the game. No multiclassing, no PrCs. I'm considering making a Gish, and trying to figure out what the best route to take is.

The first thing that came to mind was a Wizard/Swashbuckler. Intelligence bonus to damage? D10 hit die? Full BAB? Good fort and okay reflex saves? Sounds good. It also works well with a lack of armor.

On the other hand, going ranger and focusing ranged combat seems like another good choice. I still get full BAB, even better saves, and a decent hit die. Problem is, being a decent ranger means more dependance on Str and Wis, which I don't have points to spend on (it's a 28 pt buy, plus 6 extra points distributed to random abilities).

The other thing I thought about was Sorcerer/Paladin, which has Charisma in common (so I'd get good saves, good Lay on Hands, etc), but is more reliant on armor than either of the above, and has the annoying CoC.

Any suggestions on class combinations, as well as stats and play style?
Sang-Drax
08-11-05, 09:52 PM Swashbuckler/Wizard seems the best choice at first... the problem lies within the swashbuckler, which is total crap.

I'd stick with Paladin/Sorcerer and focus heavily in Divine Might. With a decent smite evil and mount, you might come up with something.
Aramas
08-11-05, 10:02 PM Can you use the Battle Sorceror from UA?
Sang-Drax
08-11-05, 10:16 PM Can you use the Battle Sorceror from UA?

Using Gestalt, Battle Sorcerer utility is questionable... if you're getting full BAB and d10/d8 HD from your warrior class, why bother picking battle sorcerer?
PhaedrusXY
08-11-05, 10:41 PM Heck man, I'd be tempted to just go with Fighter/Wizard. Since you're starting out at low levels, all those bonus feats will come in handy. And once you start hitting the higher levels, you'll have plenty of feats to get into some of the really nice feat trees and Tactical feats. And you really only need to worry about Int, once you get access to Polymorph. Yeah, you won't be getting Int to damage, like with Swashbuckler. But I think all those bonus feats will make up for that, myself. I'd probably play a dwarf, too. ;)

Palladin/Sorcerer might be my second choice... but I really hate the sorcerer class...

If you can use Psionics, go with a Fighter/Psion. You can manifest in armor with no drawbacks.
Aramas
08-11-05, 10:45 PM Because Battle Sorcerors can cast in armor
PonTelon
08-11-05, 10:49 PM Barbarian/Druid is a good gestalt build, I think. d12, good will and fort, decent skills. Barbarians shouldn't be wearing more than light armor so no-metal armor from druid is no problem. Also, Wild Shaping into a bear(or whatever is the big-bad form at that level) and then raging. You will easily be the longest outlasting and outdamaging person. Since Barbarian needs Str and Con, Wildshaping into an animal is good. This is one of my favorite builds for Gestalt, at least.

Though I have played Barbarian/Wizard in a normal game, it'd work even better in gestalt. Without being able to go into Rage Mage, however, don't expect to cast spells while raging.
Ringmereth
08-11-05, 11:49 PM Wiz/Barb sounds like a decent choice, though justifying it in-character would be difficult, especially since casting will be my primary means of offense, defense, and everything else. "Yeah, I'm tough and angry. No, I haven't touched a weapon in a month. Kill it with my bare hands? So uncivilized!" If we were starting a bit higher, though, it could be some kind of weak little kid who discovered the joy of shapechanging and polymorphs into big, huge, nasty stuff, then gets angry. It would be a lot of fun to play, but would be sorta weird at low levels.

Also, the note about polymorph is right on; if we could multiclass a bit, I'd add a level of cleric, get divine metamagic (persistant) and a couple nightsticks, and put myself in the toughest form I could find, add a few persistant buffs, and be in buisness. Sadly, that's not an option...

Some notes:

-Psionics is not allowed. Quite a pity, or I'd go Wizard/Psychic Warrior or something like that.

-Other stuff from UA is usable with DM permission. So, a big 'maybe' on Battle Sorcerer.

-I don't much like sorcerers. In the unlikely event I take the pally/sorcerer route, I'll probably focus on buffing spells, take Arcane Strike, and be more of a tank than a caster.
slade_caizer
08-12-05, 01:00 AM Oh now there's a random idea for a "gish". Warmage/FavoredSoul 20. Learn buffs and heals with FS and blast away with WM. Learn Divine Power and you can have that full BAB when you want it. By level 8 you can wear medium armor and neither side of your casting will be hindered with ASF.

Depending on what god you pick you'll even get proficiency in one martial weapon, later free focus and specialization. I recommend Xan Yae for flavor and the falchion, but whatever works for you.

The better part is a matching spellcasting stat, and no need for wisdom unless you just have to use save-dependent cleric spells. Three good saves and a moderate hit die work alright. A 3/4 BAB isn't ideal for a gish, but as I said in those cases where you need just Divine Power it.

Blast, fight, heal. I think that's the basics. The DR, ER, and wings much later on don't hurt the cause either. The real kicker is some fun flavor with all that spontaneous casting. Born of dragons and blessed of gods. Some might like the sound of that.
PonTelon
08-12-05, 01:11 AM Wiz/Barb sounds like a decent choice, though justifying it in-character would be difficult, especially since casting will be my primary means of offense, defense, and everything else. "Yeah, I'm tough and angry. No, I haven't touched a weapon in a month. Kill it with my bare hands? So uncivilized!" If we were starting a bit higher, though, it could be some kind of weak little kid who discovered the joy of shapechanging and polymorphs into big, huge, nasty stuff, then gets angry. It would be a lot of fun to play, but would be sorta weird at low levels.

I had tons of fun RPing it, actually. I was also a Dwarf/Elf. Don't ask, I was trying to be difficult. =P Basically, in my backstory I was trained in the Barbarian ways first, and I have a horrid temper. However, I tried to fit in with my Elf heritage by learning magic. I TRY to be calm, be a learned person, but my anger keeps getting in the way. That is at least how I played it. That was also the campaign that I got Mage Hand permeant'd while I was lifting an imp. So I used it as an offhand weapon with a concentration check(our DM was very nice in allowing this) and later on the pirate ship me and the halfling cabin boys played Imp Ball with it. We were so mean to it, but it deserved it.
catharz
08-12-05, 01:29 AM I'd go with Ranger, simply because that (combined with wizard) makes you good at pretty much anything. And archery is probably the best gish-route a wizard can take.

Wizard 10/Incantatrix 10//Ranger 18/Arcane Archer 2 is a good, simple one.

You could also go with the more heavily multiclassed Wizard 10/Incantatrix 10//Ranger X/Fighter 2/Monk 2 OR Barbarian 1-whatever/Arcane Archer 2.
Rallaster
08-12-05, 01:33 AM Alright. I'm joining a 2nd level FR game in which we're playing Gestalt characters with the limitation of sticking with 2 classes for the duration of the game. No multiclassing, no PrCs.Maybe you should read the posts, catharz.
Gat
08-12-05, 02:49 AM Wiz/Sorc That guy has many many spells to know and cast
khaalis
08-12-05, 03:01 AM Just a thought, considering one of your earlier posts... you might want to seriously think about the Polymorph and Divine Metamagic (Persist) route.

You could go:
Wizard 20 / Cleric 20
BAB+15, 9th level arcane, 9th level divine, Polymorph by 7th

Bard 20 / Cleric 20
BAB+15, 6th level arcane, 9th level divine, Polymorph by 10th

Hexblade 20 / Cleric 20
BAB+20, 4th level arcane, 9th level divine, Polymorph by 14th

Another option since you are in FR, take Mystra and get the Spell domain so you have access to the Anyspell, Greater Anyspell (Polymorph). Then take the Intitiate of Mystra feat so that Anyspell and Greater Anyspell are Cleric spells rather than just 1/day domain spells. This can then be mixed with any melee of choice (Monk could be a good mix but limited to BAB+15, but great saves, Wisdom synergy, effective use of Polymorph forms.) If the DM allows it, use the Aasimar LA+0 version to gain Outsider polymorph forms.

Just a few ideas.
catharz
08-12-05, 03:34 AM Maybe you should read the posts, catharz.
Fair enough.

But I'll still stand by my first post. Ranger/Wizard is one of the best "Core" gestalt combos (if there is a such thing as "Core gestalt").
Denethor
08-12-05, 10:06 AM I'd really consider using Cleric or Druid for ur tank-type class, since they're both much better than Fighter as a 20-level class. Some options:
Druid 20 / Wizard 20
Cleric 20 / Wizard 20
Favored Soul 20 / Sorcerer 20

Now, if u want to stick with a full bab class, I'd vote for either Ftr 20 / Wiz 20, for the tons of bonus feats, or Paladin 20 / Sorcerer 20 for charisma sinergy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ringmereth 08-11-05, 09:29 PM	Alright. I'm joining a 2nd level FR game in which we're playing Gestalt characters with the limitation of sticking with 2 classes for the duration of the game. No multiclassing, no PrCs. I'm considering making a Gish, and trying to figure out what the best route to take is. The first thing that came to mind was a Wizard/Swashbuckler. Intelligence bonus to damage? D10 hit die? Full BAB? Good fort and okay reflex saves? Sounds good. It also works well with a lack of armor. On the other hand, going ranger and focusing ranged combat seems like another good choice. I still get full BAB, even better saves, and a decent hit die. Problem is, being a decent ranger means more dependance on Str and Wis, which I don't have points to spend on (it's a 28 pt buy, plus 6 extra points distributed to random abilities). The other thing I thought about was Sorcerer/Paladin, which has Charisma in common (so I'd get good saves, good Lay on Hands, etc), but is more reliant on armor than either of the above, and has the annoying CoC. Any suggestions on class combinations, as well as stats and play style?
Sang-Drax 08-11-05, 09:52 PM	Swashbuckler/Wizard seems the best choice at first... the problem lies within the swashbuckler, which is total crap. I'd stick with Paladin/Sorcerer and focus heavily in Divine Might. With a decent smite evil and mount, you might come up with something.
Aramas 08-11-05, 10:02 PM	Can you use the Battle Sorceror from UA?
Sang-Drax 08-11-05, 10:16 PM	Can you use the Battle Sorceror from UA? Using Gestalt, Battle Sorcerer utility is questionable... if you're getting full BAB and d10/d8 HD from your warrior class, why bother picking battle sorcerer?
PhaedrusXY 08-11-05, 10:41 PM	Heck man, I'd be tempted to just go with Fighter/Wizard. Since you're starting out at low levels, all those bonus feats will come in handy. And once you start hitting the higher levels, you'll have plenty of feats to get into some of the really nice feat trees and Tactical feats. And you really only need to worry about Int, once you get access to Polymorph. Yeah, you won't be getting Int to damage, like with Swashbuckler. But I think all those bonus feats will make up for that, myself. I'd probably play a dwarf, too. ;) Palladin/Sorcerer might be my second choice... but I really hate the sorcerer class... If you can use Psionics, go with a Fighter/Psion. You can manifest in armor with no drawbacks.
Aramas 08-11-05, 10:45 PM	Because Battle Sorcerors can cast in armor
PonTelon 08-11-05, 10:49 PM	Barbarian/Druid is a good gestalt build, I think. d12, good will and fort, decent skills. Barbarians shouldn't be wearing more than light armor so no-metal armor from druid is no problem. Also, Wild Shaping into a bear(or whatever is the big-bad form at that level) and then raging. You will easily be the longest outlasting and outdamaging person. Since Barbarian needs Str and Con, Wildshaping into an animal is good. This is one of my favorite builds for Gestalt, at least. Though I have played Barbarian/Wizard in a normal game, it'd work even better in gestalt. Without being able to go into Rage Mage, however, don't expect to cast spells while raging.
Ringmereth 08-11-05, 11:49 PM	Wiz/Barb sounds like a decent choice, though justifying it in-character would be difficult, especially since casting will be my primary means of offense, defense, and everything else. "Yeah, I'm tough and angry. No, I haven't touched a weapon in a month. Kill it with my bare hands? So uncivilized!" If we were starting a bit higher, though, it could be some kind of weak little kid who discovered the joy of shapechanging and polymorphs into big, huge, nasty stuff, then gets angry. It would be a lot of fun to play, but would be sorta weird at low levels. Also, the note about polymorph is right on; if we could multiclass a bit, I'd add a level of cleric, get divine metamagic (persistant) and a couple nightsticks, and put myself in the toughest form I could find, add a few persistant buffs, and be in buisness. Sadly, that's not an option... Some notes: -Psionics is not allowed. Quite a pity, or I'd go Wizard/Psychic Warrior or something like that. -Other stuff from UA is usable with DM permission. So, a big 'maybe' on Battle Sorcerer. -I don't much like sorcerers. In the unlikely event I take the pally/sorcerer route, I'll probably focus on buffing spells, take Arcane Strike, and be more of a tank than a caster.
slade_caizer 08-12-05, 01:00 AM	Oh now there's a random idea for a "gish". Warmage/FavoredSoul 20. Learn buffs and heals with FS and blast away with WM. Learn Divine Power and you can have that full BAB when you want it. By level 8 you can wear medium armor and neither side of your casting will be hindered with ASF. Depending on what god you pick you'll even get proficiency in one martial weapon, later free focus and specialization. I recommend Xan Yae for flavor and the falchion, but whatever works for you. The better part is a matching spellcasting stat, and no need for wisdom unless you just have to use save-dependent cleric spells. Three good saves and a moderate hit die work alright. A 3/4 BAB isn't ideal for a gish, but as I said in those cases where you need just Divine Power it. Blast, fight, heal. I think that's the basics. The DR, ER, and wings much later on don't hurt the cause either. The real kicker is some fun flavor with all that spontaneous casting. Born of dragons and blessed of gods. Some might like the sound of that.
PonTelon 08-12-05, 01:11 AM	Wiz/Barb sounds like a decent choice, though justifying it in-character would be difficult, especially since casting will be my primary means of offense, defense, and everything else. "Yeah, I'm tough and angry. No, I haven't touched a weapon in a month. Kill it with my bare hands? So uncivilized!" If we were starting a bit higher, though, it could be some kind of weak little kid who discovered the joy of shapechanging and polymorphs into big, huge, nasty stuff, then gets angry. It would be a lot of fun to play, but would be sorta weird at low levels. I had tons of fun RPing it, actually. I was also a Dwarf/Elf. Don't ask, I was trying to be difficult. =P Basically, in my backstory I was trained in the Barbarian ways first, and I have a horrid temper. However, I tried to fit in with my Elf heritage by learning magic. I TRY to be calm, be a learned person, but my anger keeps getting in the way. That is at least how I played it. That was also the campaign that I got Mage Hand permeant'd while I was lifting an imp. So I used it as an offhand weapon with a concentration check(our DM was very nice in allowing this) and later on the pirate ship me and the halfling cabin boys played Imp Ball with it. We were so mean to it, but it deserved it.
catharz 08-12-05, 01:29 AM	I'd go with Ranger, simply because that (combined with wizard) makes you good at pretty much anything. And archery is probably the best gish-route a wizard can take. Wizard 10/Incantatrix 10//Ranger 18/Arcane Archer 2 is a good, simple one. You could also go with the more heavily multiclassed Wizard 10/Incantatrix 10//Ranger X/Fighter 2/Monk 2 OR Barbarian 1-whatever/Arcane Archer 2.
Rallaster 08-12-05, 01:33 AM	Alright. I'm joining a 2nd level FR game in which we're playing Gestalt characters with the limitation of sticking with 2 classes for the duration of the game. No multiclassing, no PrCs.Maybe you should read the posts, catharz.
Gat 08-12-05, 02:49 AM	Wiz/Sorc That guy has many many spells to know and cast
khaalis 08-12-05, 03:01 AM	Just a thought, considering one of your earlier posts... you might want to seriously think about the Polymorph and Divine Metamagic (Persist) route. You could go: Wizard 20 / Cleric 20 BAB+15, 9th level arcane, 9th level divine, Polymorph by 7th Bard 20 / Cleric 20 BAB+15, 6th level arcane, 9th level divine, Polymorph by 10th Hexblade 20 / Cleric 20 BAB+20, 4th level arcane, 9th level divine, Polymorph by 14th Another option since you are in FR, take Mystra and get the Spell domain so you have access to the Anyspell, Greater Anyspell (Polymorph). Then take the Intitiate of Mystra feat so that Anyspell and Greater Anyspell are Cleric spells rather than just 1/day domain spells. This can then be mixed with any melee of choice (Monk could be a good mix but limited to BAB+15, but great saves, Wisdom synergy, effective use of Polymorph forms.) If the DM allows it, use the Aasimar LA+0 version to gain Outsider polymorph forms. Just a few ideas.
catharz 08-12-05, 03:34 AM	Maybe you should read the posts, catharz. Fair enough. But I'll still stand by my first post. Ranger/Wizard is one of the best "Core" gestalt combos (if there is a such thing as "Core gestalt").
Denethor 08-12-05, 10:06 AM	I'd really consider using Cleric or Druid for ur tank-type class, since they're both much better than Fighter as a 20-level class. Some options: Druid 20 / Wizard 20 Cleric 20 / Wizard 20 Favored Soul 20 / Sorcerer 20 Now, if u want to stick with a full bab class, I'd vote for either Ftr 20 / Wiz 20, for the tons of bonus feats, or Paladin 20 / Sorcerer 20 for charisma sinergy.