Best Gish? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Best Gish? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
XrP-Leon The Second
07-26-05, 03:19 PM I was just looking through Races of the Wild, and I came across the arcane Herophant (sp?). In any case, it looked like the ultimate gish-er.

Druid 3/Warmage3/ Mystic Thurge4/ Arcane Herophant 10. This should net you a +16 BAB, and 8th level divine/arcane spells. Not to mention windshape as a 13th levle druid, and the animal companion/familiar combo. and other goodies. Any comments on this? Can anyone make it better? This is just a 5second try.
Kingrames
07-26-05, 03:21 PM what do you mean by Gish?
the Gith hero?
Neff
07-26-05, 03:23 PM Actually, that build nets a +12 BAB, not +16.

+2 Druid
+1 Warmage
+2 Mystic Theurge
+7 Arcane Hierophant
XrP-Leon The Second
07-26-05, 03:23 PM gish, as in fighter/mage. This guy has buffer spells, healing, and blasting, plus decent combat. That's a gish :P

Edit: Ouch, only +12? My bad.. anyone have suggestions to make it better? What about fractional BAB? That's what we use...

Druid: +2.25
Wizard: +1.5
MT: +2
AH: + 7.5

13.25, not much better, but with the 13 levels of druid wildshaping, that'd not be too bad, would it? Tiny, Plant, Large, and Medium creatures.
Myrridin
07-26-05, 04:10 PM The "best" gish, from a min-maxed caster level/BAB standpoint is, I believe:

Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 10/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/PrC 2(Whatever you want here)

At level 18 you have:

BAB: +16
CL: 15 (+3 CL with Practiced Spell caster) = 18

So you're looking at 8th level spells, 3 attacks, and a lot of fun. You want some PrC that gives you full casting for the last 2 levels, so that you can get 9th level spells.

Joseph Kell created the best gish thread out there, but it's probably lost by now.
Kurama Youko
07-26-05, 04:15 PM Druid 4/Battle Sorcerer 4/Arcane H. 10/Mystic Theurge 2/ = BAB 14
Caster lv 16 for both arcane and divine spells which also means 8th lv spells in both.. good hp in both, and with practice spellcaster for both classes you'd have a caster lv of 20 in both.

However the Battle Sorcerer side wouldnt know any 8th lv spells at the time but he would still have 8th lv spell slots. You could rectify this by taking a Bloodline feat. With this particular build I would say take the Plant Bloodline or the Fey Bloodline. If your Druid half is particularly drawn to the elements as oppose to just nature itself, then anyone of the Elemental Bloodline feats would fit also. In any case it would give you 1 8th lv Spell Known for your Battle Sorcerer side.
XrP-Leon The Second
07-26-05, 05:13 PM Ouch, just one? Still, that seems like a pretty good build. Jsut for note: I was going for something that would be the best all around mage (if not too potent. no nineth level spells :() and also have decent combat. I'm going to Sonic, and when I get back I'll see what I can dish up.
eRaz0r
07-27-05, 01:07 AM the best Gish ?
Druid 20 :) Wildshape into something nasty, cast some buffs and go to town.

Other ideas ?
There's a sublime-ur-theurge build which uses Sublime Chord and Ur Priest to get 9th level spells in both Arcane and Divine and it has some decent bard abilities (including casting in light armor without ASF). With the appropriate feat selection, decent BAB (but some sad Fort and Ref Saves), and casting Divine Power and Divine Favor, I think that would be a pretty neat gish character.

A variant on the "best" gish below (the one with CL 17/BAB+16) is to use Paladin and Sorcerer for Charisma synergy instead of Fighter/Wizard. I'm not sure that this is better or worse, but it can be fun.

Also, if you ever get into Epic play, Not only are you able to continue with Epic Eldritch Knight, but you can start on Dragon Disciple. Imagine a Paladin/Sorcerer/etc with 9th level spells *and* the Half-Dragon template? It's not supremely optimal, but it's fun.
Wellby the Fountain
07-27-05, 07:56 AM Druid 4/Battle Sorcerer 4/Arcane H. 10/Mystic Theurge 2/ = BAB 14
Caster lv 16 for both arcane and divine spells which also means 8th lv spells in both.. good hp in both, and with practice spellcaster for both classes you'd have a caster lv of 20 in both.

caster level 16 + 3 = 19, unless im wrong about practiced spellcaster and its +4
ninjarabbit
07-27-05, 07:58 AM battlesorcerer8/fighter1/spellsword1/eldritchknight10, BAB 18, CL 18, can cast in medium or mithral heavy armor without ASF with battlecaster, 2 bonus feats, decent hps for a gish

or

battlesorcerer8/dragonslayer1/spellsword1/eldritchknight10, BAB 18, CL 19, same as above except you're effectively trading 3 feats (fighter bonus feat, dodge, iron will) for a CL and immunity to fear
Wellby the Fountain
07-27-05, 08:03 AM what book is battlesorcerer found in?
ninjarabbit
07-27-05, 08:09 AM what book is battlesorcerer found in?

Unearthed Arcana

It's a variant of the normal sorcerer that trades a spell per day each level and one spell known each level (minimum of one spell) for 3/4 BAB, d8 hit dice, ability to cast in light armor without ASF, and proficency in a one-handed martial weapon.
Erudite
07-27-05, 08:14 AM Here are some links that might prove useful to you:
Character Build Spotlight: Gish (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307309)

The Comprehensive 3.5 Arcane Gish Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150451%3Cbr%20/%3E)
Erudite
07-27-05, 08:34 AM Here are some additional build ideas:

Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) Build
Human Ftr 1/Wiz 5/MindBender 1/SpellSwd 2/Dragonslayer 1/KnightPhantom 10
BAB +16 (+17 frac)
SAVES: +17/+4/+14 (+19/+6/+15 frac)
Cast arcane spells as Wiz 17 (caster level 20 with Practiced Caster)

Better hit dice than using Eldritch Knight, some nice abilities, wear light armor with no penalty. Very nice for an Int based character.

Bard Phantom
Bard 6/Soldier of Light 2/Dragonslayer 1/Knight Phantom 1/Sublime Chord 2/Knight Phantom 2-9

Cast 9th level arcane spells (caster level 16, 20 with practiced caster), Cha to saves, Cha to attack (wth snowflake wardance), turn undead, cure light wounds, UMD as class skill, etc. Great for a Cha based character.

Fochlucan Lyrist (really a quadruple threat, but still...)
Druid 1 (preferabley Avenging Hunting variety from UA)/Bard 4/Green Whisperer 2/Dragonslayer 1/Shadow Dancer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8

Cast 9th level arcane spells at caster level 14 (18 w/PC), or if your DM lets you include Bard Casting Level, 17 (20 w/PC)
Cast 6th level druid spells at caster level 11 (15 w/PC). ALL of the caster levels can be increased with the Song of Power from Sublime Chord by 4 levels.
BAB +15 (16 frac)
Saves +10/+13/+20 (+13/+15/+21 frac)
Excellent skills all of the way through.
Hide in Plain Sight, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Dark Vision, etc.

This build does have MAD, so it is better for higher point builds or lucky rolls.
Khazra Reborn
07-27-05, 09:13 AM Human Ftr 1/Wiz 5/MindBender 1/SpellSwd 2/Dragonslayer 1/KnightPhantom 10
drop a level of spellsword & have wizard6, that has same BaB but an extra caster level.
If you have acess to UA & regional feats you can make stupid good gishes, but anywhere else but here i'd consider it cheating :P

white dragonspawn (la bought off) human
sorcerer8/knight phantom10/dragonslayer1/spellsword1
take 2 flaws, you need the feats!
required feats:
1st level:militia
9th level: battlecaster

casts as a level 20 sorcerer in mithral fullplate, BaB16. Basicly, this is superior to a level 20 sorcerer in every way (except familiar :embarrass ). Some may argue that its not a gish because it has only 6 feats (thats even with 2 flaws!) that you can choose yourself but it has the BaB requirement. However, it also doesnt need the practised spellcaster feat which kind of saves a feat.

If you wanted you could do it as a battle sorcerer, id instead suggest:
white dragonspawn human (la bought off)
battle sorcerer8/EK10/dragonslayer1/spellsword1
requires:militia, battlecaster
casts as a level 20 B sorcerer, BaB18, cast in mithral fullplate, no need for practised spellcaster. You save a few feats but i'd suggest arcane disciple & a good domain for some extra spells known, i like competiton myself for greater aspect of deity & divine power but its up to you.
Karlcullinane
07-27-05, 09:28 AM >Snip<
However the Battle Sorcerer side wouldnt know any 8th lv spells at the time but he would still have 8th lv spell slots. You could rectify this by taking a Bloodline feat. With this particular build I would say take the Plant Bloodline or the Fey Bloodline.
>Snip<

Actually, you need to re-read the Battle Sorcerer in your UA, in my version it specifically states that they have a minimum of one spell known per level.
OTOH I do use the Bloodlines feats for my Battle Sorcerers to give them a tad more flavor and spells, so kudos for that idea ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XrP-Leon The Second 07-26-05, 03:19 PM	I was just looking through Races of the Wild, and I came across the arcane Herophant (sp?). In any case, it looked like the ultimate gish-er. Druid 3/Warmage3/ Mystic Thurge4/ Arcane Herophant 10. This should net you a +16 BAB, and 8th level divine/arcane spells. Not to mention windshape as a 13th levle druid, and the animal companion/familiar combo. and other goodies. Any comments on this? Can anyone make it better? This is just a 5second try.
Kingrames 07-26-05, 03:21 PM	what do you mean by Gish? the Gith hero?
Neff 07-26-05, 03:23 PM	Actually, that build nets a +12 BAB, not +16. +2 Druid +1 Warmage +2 Mystic Theurge +7 Arcane Hierophant
XrP-Leon The Second 07-26-05, 03:23 PM	gish, as in fighter/mage. This guy has buffer spells, healing, and blasting, plus decent combat. That's a gish :P Edit: Ouch, only +12? My bad.. anyone have suggestions to make it better? What about fractional BAB? That's what we use... Druid: +2.25 Wizard: +1.5 MT: +2 AH: + 7.5 13.25, not much better, but with the 13 levels of druid wildshaping, that'd not be too bad, would it? Tiny, Plant, Large, and Medium creatures.
Myrridin 07-26-05, 04:10 PM	The "best" gish, from a min-maxed caster level/BAB standpoint is, I believe: Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 10/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/PrC 2(Whatever you want here) At level 18 you have: BAB: +16 CL: 15 (+3 CL with Practiced Spell caster) = 18 So you're looking at 8th level spells, 3 attacks, and a lot of fun. You want some PrC that gives you full casting for the last 2 levels, so that you can get 9th level spells. Joseph Kell created the best gish thread out there, but it's probably lost by now.
Kurama Youko 07-26-05, 04:15 PM	Druid 4/Battle Sorcerer 4/Arcane H. 10/Mystic Theurge 2/ = BAB 14 Caster lv 16 for both arcane and divine spells which also means 8th lv spells in both.. good hp in both, and with practice spellcaster for both classes you'd have a caster lv of 20 in both. However the Battle Sorcerer side wouldnt know any 8th lv spells at the time but he would still have 8th lv spell slots. You could rectify this by taking a Bloodline feat. With this particular build I would say take the Plant Bloodline or the Fey Bloodline. If your Druid half is particularly drawn to the elements as oppose to just nature itself, then anyone of the Elemental Bloodline feats would fit also. In any case it would give you 1 8th lv Spell Known for your Battle Sorcerer side.
XrP-Leon The Second 07-26-05, 05:13 PM	Ouch, just one? Still, that seems like a pretty good build. Jsut for note: I was going for something that would be the best all around mage (if not too potent. no nineth level spells :() and also have decent combat. I'm going to Sonic, and when I get back I'll see what I can dish up.
eRaz0r 07-27-05, 01:07 AM	the best Gish ? Druid 20 :) Wildshape into something nasty, cast some buffs and go to town. Other ideas ? There's a sublime-ur-theurge build which uses Sublime Chord and Ur Priest to get 9th level spells in both Arcane and Divine and it has some decent bard abilities (including casting in light armor without ASF). With the appropriate feat selection, decent BAB (but some sad Fort and Ref Saves), and casting Divine Power and Divine Favor, I think that would be a pretty neat gish character. A variant on the "best" gish below (the one with CL 17/BAB+16) is to use Paladin and Sorcerer for Charisma synergy instead of Fighter/Wizard. I'm not sure that this is better or worse, but it can be fun. Also, if you ever get into Epic play, Not only are you able to continue with Epic Eldritch Knight, but you can start on Dragon Disciple. Imagine a Paladin/Sorcerer/etc with 9th level spells and the Half-Dragon template? It's not supremely optimal, but it's fun.
Wellby the Fountain 07-27-05, 07:56 AM	Druid 4/Battle Sorcerer 4/Arcane H. 10/Mystic Theurge 2/ = BAB 14 Caster lv 16 for both arcane and divine spells which also means 8th lv spells in both.. good hp in both, and with practice spellcaster for both classes you'd have a caster lv of 20 in both. caster level 16 + 3 = 19, unless im wrong about practiced spellcaster and its +4
ninjarabbit 07-27-05, 07:58 AM	battlesorcerer8/fighter1/spellsword1/eldritchknight10, BAB 18, CL 18, can cast in medium or mithral heavy armor without ASF with battlecaster, 2 bonus feats, decent hps for a gish or battlesorcerer8/dragonslayer1/spellsword1/eldritchknight10, BAB 18, CL 19, same as above except you're effectively trading 3 feats (fighter bonus feat, dodge, iron will) for a CL and immunity to fear
Wellby the Fountain 07-27-05, 08:03 AM	what book is battlesorcerer found in?
ninjarabbit 07-27-05, 08:09 AM	what book is battlesorcerer found in? Unearthed Arcana It's a variant of the normal sorcerer that trades a spell per day each level and one spell known each level (minimum of one spell) for 3/4 BAB, d8 hit dice, ability to cast in light armor without ASF, and proficency in a one-handed martial weapon.
Erudite 07-27-05, 08:14 AM	Here are some links that might prove useful to you: Character Build Spotlight: Gish (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307309) The Comprehensive 3.5 Arcane Gish Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150451%3Cbr%20/%3E)
Erudite 07-27-05, 08:34 AM	Here are some additional build ideas: Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) Build Human Ftr 1/Wiz 5/MindBender 1/SpellSwd 2/Dragonslayer 1/KnightPhantom 10 BAB +16 (+17 frac) SAVES: +17/+4/+14 (+19/+6/+15 frac) Cast arcane spells as Wiz 17 (caster level 20 with Practiced Caster) Better hit dice than using Eldritch Knight, some nice abilities, wear light armor with no penalty. Very nice for an Int based character. Bard Phantom Bard 6/Soldier of Light 2/Dragonslayer 1/Knight Phantom 1/Sublime Chord 2/Knight Phantom 2-9 Cast 9th level arcane spells (caster level 16, 20 with practiced caster), Cha to saves, Cha to attack (wth snowflake wardance), turn undead, cure light wounds, UMD as class skill, etc. Great for a Cha based character. Fochlucan Lyrist (really a quadruple threat, but still...) Druid 1 (preferabley Avenging Hunting variety from UA)/Bard 4/Green Whisperer 2/Dragonslayer 1/Shadow Dancer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8 Cast 9th level arcane spells at caster level 14 (18 w/PC), or if your DM lets you include Bard Casting Level, 17 (20 w/PC) Cast 6th level druid spells at caster level 11 (15 w/PC). ALL of the caster levels can be increased with the Song of Power from Sublime Chord by 4 levels. BAB +15 (16 frac) Saves +10/+13/+20 (+13/+15/+21 frac) Excellent skills all of the way through. Hide in Plain Sight, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Dark Vision, etc. This build does have MAD, so it is better for higher point builds or lucky rolls.
Khazra Reborn 07-27-05, 09:13 AM	Human Ftr 1/Wiz 5/MindBender 1/SpellSwd 2/Dragonslayer 1/KnightPhantom 10 drop a level of spellsword & have wizard6, that has same BaB but an extra caster level. If you have acess to UA & regional feats you can make stupid good gishes, but anywhere else but here i'd consider it cheating :P white dragonspawn (la bought off) human sorcerer8/knight phantom10/dragonslayer1/spellsword1 take 2 flaws, you need the feats! required feats: 1st level:militia 9th level: battlecaster casts as a level 20 sorcerer in mithral fullplate, BaB16. Basicly, this is superior to a level 20 sorcerer in every way (except familiar :embarrass ). Some may argue that its not a gish because it has only 6 feats (thats even with 2 flaws!) that you can choose yourself but it has the BaB requirement. However, it also doesnt need the practised spellcaster feat which kind of saves a feat. If you wanted you could do it as a battle sorcerer, id instead suggest: white dragonspawn human (la bought off) battle sorcerer8/EK10/dragonslayer1/spellsword1 requires:militia, battlecaster casts as a level 20 B sorcerer, BaB18, cast in mithral fullplate, no need for practised spellcaster. You save a few feats but i'd suggest arcane disciple & a good domain for some extra spells known, i like competiton myself for greater aspect of deity & divine power but its up to you.
Karlcullinane 07-27-05, 09:28 AM	>Snip< However the Battle Sorcerer side wouldnt know any 8th lv spells at the time but he would still have 8th lv spell slots. You could rectify this by taking a Bloodline feat. With this particular build I would say take the Plant Bloodline or the Fey Bloodline. >Snip< Actually, you need to re-read the Battle Sorcerer in your UA, in my version it specifically states that they have a minimum of one spell known per level. OTOH I do use the Bloodlines feats for my Battle Sorcerers to give them a tad more flavor and spells, so kudos for that idea ;)