Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EldonG 06-11-06, 11:33 AM	never mind...it doesn't work. Wait...it can work, more or less... Wizard7 takes Arcane Disciple: Healing, Craft Wand, Empower Spell, Augment Healing, and Arcane Thesis: Cure Serious Wounds...makes a wand of Empowered Cure Serious Wounds... Can it be beat? At 7th level? Think about it...crazy, but this wizard, at 7th level, is a better healer than most clerics! Well, as far as raw hp are concerned. ;) Perhaps it's possible to change an area spell from normal damage to positive energy? Any thoughts on that?
EldonG 06-12-06, 09:22 AM	Hmmm...nobody at all interested?
WombleHunter 06-12-06, 10:51 AM	First, you can't put Augment Healing into items. Second, aren't the spells from Arcane Disciple divine spells? That would preclude the use of Arcane Thesis. You could try Extra Spell (Bardic Cure Serious Wounds), though, I suppose.
EldonG 06-12-06, 12:28 PM	They're arcane when a Wizard or any other caster casts them through Arcane Disciple. As to the Augment Healing - I had my suspicions, but can you give me a reference? By the way...is there anything like reverse of Lord of the Uttercold? Something that uses positive energy?
WombleHunter 06-12-06, 12:33 PM	I can't quote you actual text, but the says that the effect is applied whenever you cast a healing spell. Making a magic item doesn't involve casting the spell (though the spells are "triggered" when making the item), and neither does using one. As far as I'm aware, no, there isn't a positive Uttercold or Black Lore.
Nezkrul 06-12-06, 02:51 PM	Wand of Extended Vigor at caster level 15 = fast healing 2 for 50 rounds. Market Price average is 45,000gps.
EldonG 06-12-06, 03:11 PM	Wand of Extended Vigor at caster level 15 = fast healing 2 for 50 rounds. Market Price average is 45,000gps. Nice. Not as fast, but darn useful! :D Much higher level, though...
Nezkrul 06-12-06, 03:15 PM	My mistake, remove the Extended feat from the wand I posted, as the duration of Vigor has a set amount + a certain amount based on caster level to a maximum of 25... this precludes using extend spell on it once you can already cast it at maximum duration (25 rounds) I just thought that the Vigor spell on a wand would make one of the best healing wands. It's not burst healing, just long duration fast healing :)
Fwib 06-12-06, 03:41 PM	How do you determine what is best? Most hp/gp? Most hp in a round? Something else? My group uses wands of Lesser Vigor, caster level 1, for healing: 550hp for 750gp (with wands of CLW for in-combat use, where speed is better) (this is at low levels, of course)
EldonG 06-12-06, 03:53 PM	How do you determine what is best? Most hp/gp? Most hp in a round? Something else? My group uses wands of Lesser Vigor, caster level 1, for healing: 550hp for 750gp (with wands of CLW for in-combat use, where speed is better) (this is at low levels, of course) I dunno...most healed out of a wand per charge was my first thought, but hp per gp seems pretty valid, too. :)
Pauper 06-12-06, 04:35 PM	In the category of 'something else' I'd nominate the following: 7th level cleric with the Craft Wand and Reach Spell feats. Craft a wand containing cure moderate wounds with reach - CL7, 21,000gp in materials and 840 XP. Granted, it only cures 2d8+7 points of damage per use, but it can be used against any target within 30 feet of the wielder as a ranged touch attack (generally pretty easy to make), and can be used by any bard, cleric, druid, ranger, or paladin in the party, as well as any character capable of making a DC20 Use Magic Device check. (A warlock can do this easily, while a 7th level rogue would need some support via a high Charisma, Skill Focus, and other bonuses to get him up to a +19 skill check.) Edit: A less expensive option is to use cure light wounds instead of cure serious - this reduces the healing to 1d8+5, but also reduces the cost to nearly half (11,250gp + 450XP) and allows the wand to be crafted by a 6th level caster (since I can't think of a way to get Craft Wand into a straight cleric5 build). Depending on the sorts of enemies your party fights, this might not be enough healing to be strictly viable in play. -- Pauper
Kreistor1 06-12-06, 04:45 PM	Wands of combat useful spells are generally too expensive for PC's of the correct level to cast. Vigor, though interesting, does not have the volume to affect combat. Wands are, inherently, post-combat damage recovery. For post combat, I don't think anything beats the Wand of Lesser Vigor. 750GP/11HPx50 = 0.73GP/HP. I don't think you'll find anything even close. Due to the exponential nature of the cost of wands, lower level is almost always better and never worse than higher level in terms of cost efficiency.
Fwib 06-12-06, 05:07 PM	For post combat, I don't think anything beats the Wand of Lesser Vigor. 750GP/11HPx50 = 0.73GP/HP. I don't think you'll find anything even close.Agreed, but you put the hp/gp inverted: 750gp/550hp is 1+4/11gp/hp :)
Pauper 06-12-06, 05:20 PM	For post combat, I don't think anything beats the Wand of Lesser Vigor. 750GP/11HPx50 = 0.73GP/HP. I don't think you'll find anything even close. Actually, it's 1.36GP/HP (750GP/550HP), and technically the cost progression for wands is geometric, not exponential, but your point is well taken. Edit: forgot the [pedant] tag - sorry! ;) For instance, the next best post-combat wand I can think of would be the wand of mass lesser vigor at caster level 5, which is capable of healing up to three party members of up to 15 points of damage with each charge. At a cost of 11,250gp, however, that's still a relatively high GP/HP ratio (11,250/(45*50)=exactly 5GP/HP), and depends on the ability to optimize the use of the wand's charges. You're better off making three level 1 wands of lesser vigor than one of these. And while I agree that combat-worthy wands are pricey, they do have one advantage - using a spell-trigger item does not require concentration, nor does it provoke attacks of opportunity. And sometimes you don't have the luxury of waiting until after combat to start passing out the healing. -- Pauper
Psifon 06-12-06, 05:31 PM	Well, it's not strictly a wand, but the feat Craft Scepter creates a command word activated device with 50 charges that will hold spells up to 7th level. The feat is found in Lost Empires (Forgotten Realms). So with this you can simply create a "wand" of heal spell. And all it takes is a feat.
EldonG 06-12-06, 05:35 PM	Well, it's not strictly a wand, but the feat Craft Scepter creates a command word activated device with 50 charges that will hold spells up to 7th level. The feat is found in Lost Empires (Forgotten Realms). So with this you can simply create a "wand" of heal spell. And all it takes is a feat. Yeah...and my original character in the thread can take Arcane Thesis: Heal and bump it 2 levels...and then add a 1 level metamagic...hmmm...which one works? Any?
Psifon 06-12-06, 05:37 PM	Well, you can't empower the heal spell, because it has no "variable numeric effects." It just heals in 10 hp/level increments. Empowering it does nothing.
EldonG 06-12-06, 05:40 PM	Well, you can't empower the heal spell, because it has no "variable numeric effects." It just heals in 10 hp/level increments. Empowering it does nothing. Right...and silent...who cares? Still...no...hmmm...so...what?
Elderich 06-12-06, 06:21 PM	Artificer. Persistant extended reached chained lessor vigor. Fast healing 1 for 2 days for up to CL# of characters. 12 wand charges. 180 GP retail According to the FAQ Persistant overrides max duration.
EldonG 06-12-06, 06:23 PM	Artificer. Persistant extended reached chained lessor vigor. Fast healing 1 for 2 days for up to CL# of characters. 12 wand charges. 180 GP retail According to the FAQ Persistant overrides max duration. How do you get that into a wand? Or even a scepter?
bluelighter0 06-12-06, 06:42 PM	How do you get that into a wand? Or even a scepter? Artificer. It's a standard market wand of Lesser Vigor, using the metamagic spell trigger class feature (although using the Metamagic Item infusion would be better, in terms of cost) to apply Persistant and Extend before you trigger it. If you do it with the infusion, it only takes a single charge, so you can just hit the whole party with it first thing in the morning, and be good for 48 hours.
aelryinth 06-12-06, 06:42 PM	I belive that trick only works for Mass Lessor Vigor out of the Vigor chain, because it has different language then the rest of the spells. He's making a wand of Extended Reach Lesser Vigor (level 4) and using metamagic infusion and metamagic spell trigger to add chain and Persistent to it. I'm also of the mind extended and persistent don't stack, because you have to define which one takes effect first...and metamagic feats should not care about what order they take effect in. I.e. does extended persistent last twice as long, up to a day, or does it last for two days? Since there's no right answer, I'd probably just ignore the extended. ===Aelryinth
EldonG 06-12-06, 06:45 PM	My biggest problem is that it isn't the wand...another caster simply couldn't get that out of it... I'm not saying it isn't useful, but it's the Artificer, himself.
bluelighter0 06-12-06, 06:52 PM	True enough, but in terms of sheer numerical superiority, GP:HP, that's the way to do it. One wand charge, 28,800 HP healed (over 48 hours). An Incanatrix could do something simmilar (although they'd have to use the extra charges).
Nezkrul 06-12-06, 07:53 PM	if metamagic feats used on one spell affect eachother, then my cheeseforged wizard just became even more sick. I always thought that metamagic feats only affected the base spell and not eachother?
Fwib 06-12-06, 08:19 PM	Please lets not turn this thread into a clone of the Metamagic Stacking (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=446271) thread
Elderich 06-12-06, 09:02 PM	Sorry if I was not clear. bluelighter0 has the hang of it, just forgot to mention reach. Standard lessor vigor wand 750 GP. The rest is artificer. I will not debate the rules in this thread, as that is off topic. As Fwib pointed out, the linked thread concludes the debate. Any who care to might post questions on the implementation there. Nezkrul; read the latest 3.5 FAQ? aelryinth; reach makes lessor vigor a fixed range.
aelryinth 06-13-06, 12:34 AM	No, no...I thought Mass lesser vigor had a different duration restriction then the other vigor spells, and that's why you could persist it. ==Aelryinth
Pauper 06-13-06, 02:56 AM	No, no...I thought Mass lesser vigor had a different duration restriction then the other vigor spells, and that's why you could persist it. I can't speak for any earlier versions of the spell, but the version in the Spell Compendium uses the same structure as the other vigor spells. It has a higher limit - you can add 15 rounds instead of just 5 with plain old lesser vigor, but the restriction 'max X rounds' is the same. And I have to agree that including character abilities is probably off-point for this thread. One could certainly ask the question, "Given a wand of lesser vigor, what sort of character can get the optimal use out of it?" And the answers might be interesting. But it wouldn't really fit the question in this thread. -- Pauper
Elderich 06-13-06, 10:03 AM	My apologies. I understood the question to be "Can it be beat? At 7th level?" To which I answer; "Yes, by an Artificer. And this is how..." If my answer is off topic, I apologize for the offending post. aelryinth; As I said it is reach spell which lets it be persisted. Reach spell gives a touch spell a fixed range, thus persistable. Mass vigor obivously must have a range, as "Mass" and "touch" are mutualy exclusive. Mass vigor is persistable due to fixed range, and the FAQ clarifies (if there was any doubt) that persistant overrides the limitation in the text. (This same limitation is in every "vigor"). Therefore lessor vigor is persistable, IF you can get the range to fixed or personal. Which reach spell makes it fixed. If discussion of how this works off topic for this thread? If so we can make another for the discussion. Whatever you all think.
EldonG 06-13-06, 10:08 AM	My apologies. I understood the question to be "Can it be beat? At 7th level?" To which I answer; "Yes, by an Artificer. And this is how..." If my answer is off topic, I apologize for the offending post. aelryinth; As I said it is reach spell which lets it be persisted. Reach spell gives a touch spell a fixed range, thus persistable. Mass vigor obivously must have a range, as "Mass" and "touch" are mutualy exclusive. Mass vigor is persistable due to fixed range, and the FAQ clarifies (if there was any doubt) that persistant overrides the limitation in the text. (This same limitation is in every "vigor"). Therefore lessor vigor is persistable, IF you can get the range to fixed or personal. Which reach spell makes it fixed. If discussion of how this works off topic for this thread? If so we can make another for the discussion. Whatever you all think. Heck...I never said I was offended. It isn't like this is a contest, just a discussion. I'm happy to have the info, after all... :) I'm still interested in any other possibilities that really crank up a wand, for anybody, though. They're pretty cheap...and cool. :)
Ske 06-13-06, 11:16 AM	My biggest problem is that it isn't the wand...another caster simply couldn't get that out of it... I'm not saying it isn't useful, but it's the Artificer, himself. "It's just not going to work between us... No no, it's not you, it's your class."