Best Items for Retain Essence [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Items for Retain Essence [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
geekpocket
07-18-05, 10:24 PM The Artificiers Retain Essence ability lets them suck the XP that was used to make a magic item and add it to their Craft Reserve. It seems to me the best items to use this with are items that have a high XP cost to create with a low purchase price. This way the Artificer could spend some cash to get additional XP to make what he wanted. Has anyone looked at the DMG items and found any that would work here?

Side question: Is there a rule where you can spend extra XP at some ratio of XP to GP to spend less GP when making an item? I seem to remember seeing that somewhere, or I may be completely imagining things.
Quenditar
07-18-05, 10:33 PM The only cheap item that comes to mind is cantrip scrolls. They contain 1 XP just like scrolls of 1st-level spells, but are half the price.
X-Codes
07-18-05, 10:46 PM Main Question: You would have to look at spells with XP components for that. The earliest of those, I believe, is Lesser Planar Ally (level 4). Cantrip scrolls, as stated above, are probably your best bet earlier on.

Side Question: I'm willing to bet there was a feat like that somewhere, but I've never personally seen it.
geekpocket
07-19-05, 01:05 AM The problem with the cantrip scrolls is you have to spend a day with each magic item. That's a return of about 1 day per XP, which is a pretty freakin slow way to get some quick Craft Reserve.

A scroll of Wish would cost around 28k IIRC, and you'd get a little over 5000XP for one day of work. That should be more than enough to make nearly any item you require; just be sure you use it up before gaining another Artificier level. I'm not sure if the cost of the Wish scroll will pay for itself with the magic items you make from the XP though.

If you could burn XP for GP, that could be good, if you then went and sold your new magic items. Perhaps try to recoup the price of the Wish scroll and make some profit. I cant remember where I saw it, but I think it was a 5 GP to 1 XP ratio. Don't know for sure though.

If not then pay for crafting your items like regular, but make sure that the combined resale value is greater than the cost of Wish scroll. Anyone have any ideas for items to make for sale?

As an aside: Our house rule for selling items goes like this: Start with half the market price. Double your Diplomacy modifier and add it as a percentage to that 50%. So if you had a +10 Diplomacy, you could sell items for 70% market value. Yes, that means if you have a +26 Diplomacy or higher you can sell for more than the market price. Too bad Diplomacy isn't a class skill for Artificers, or I'd be filthy rich.
Quenditar
07-19-05, 01:29 AM 1 XP for 5 GP sounds like the option offered Vow of Poverty spellcasters who need expensive material components. It's a horrible deal unless, for whatever reason, you cannot get the expensive components.
DDogwood
07-19-05, 10:07 AM 1 XP for 5 GP sounds like the option offered Vow of Poverty spellcasters who need expensive material components. It's a horrible deal unless, for whatever reason, you cannot get the expensive components.

Agreed... the item creation rules suggest that 1 XP = 25 GP in most circumstances.
Griff_Goodbeard
07-19-05, 10:23 AM What about magic Traps, and cursed Items. By RAW you should be able to suck the exp out of these otherwise inconveinent things, yes? What about Golems?
Traevanon
07-19-05, 10:42 AM As an aside: Our house rule for selling items goes like this: Start with half the market price. Double your Diplomacy modifier and add it as a percentage to that 50%. So if you had a +10 Diplomacy, you could sell items for 70% market value. Yes, that means if you have a +26 Diplomacy or higher you can sell for more than the market price. Too bad Diplomacy isn't a class skill for Artificers, or I'd be filthy rich.

I use a bit harsher rule myself:

Buying items:
125% of the cost - your Diplomacy modifier + NPC Diplomacy modifier

Selling Items:
50% of the cost + your Diplomacy modifier - NPC Diplomacy modifier

Specific vendors always buy and sell certain things for better deals however.
LordKiwi
07-19-05, 10:46 AM As an aside: Our house rule for selling items goes like this: Start with half the market price. Double your Diplomacy modifier and add it as a percentage to that 50%. So if you had a +10 Diplomacy, you could sell items for 70% market value. Yes, that means if you have a +26 Diplomacy or higher you can sell for more than the market price. Too bad Diplomacy isn't a class skill for Artificers, or I'd be filthy rich.
Then get someone else to sell them, maybe a cohort or another PC.

This looks like a very breakable house rule. If you get it over 100% what's to stop you from simply buying and selling magic items to make a large profit, or preferably getting a cohort to do it for you?

Lord Kiwi,
Molot
07-19-05, 10:58 AM What about magic Traps, and cursed Items. By RAW you should be able to suck the exp out of these otherwise inconveinent things, yes? What about Golems?
Cursed items should be created with about the same XP that normal magic items. And they are much cheaper... So imho it's a great idea ;)

Aslo, if you would suck an XP from cursed sword, then value of the sword itself is enought to be a money component for an item creation:
It's value is equal orginal value + cursing cost, wich was actually item creation cost. This gold wasn't burned or anything, it was spent for gems, gold and so on, and they still are there.
So, you are buying a cursed sword, and (with no cost of your own but time), you are turning it to cool magic item :D

But cursed items aren't popular...
Trance Kuja
07-19-05, 11:02 AM Besides cursed items, evil items may be a good option. Most evil items can't be used by a good party and sell for crap on the normal market. You may find a church who will strike a deal with you if you suck their cache of evil items they confiscated and spit out a new mace of disruption or holy sword for them. Heck you could save some cash by reusing the now drained evil weapons for the base masterwork weapon to magic up. It be funny to see a Holy Avenger thats made outta blackened adamantine with a skull pommel.
Molot
07-19-05, 11:06 AM It be funny to see a Holy Avenger thats made outta blackened adamantine with a skull pommel.
It would be even more funny to change a "sword of instant slaying good" to the "sword of instant slaying evil"... And leaving it in the place it was taken from, so the owner can touch it... and die, of course :D
And you don't need to spend a single sp or XP point for this :schemes:
LordKiwi
07-19-05, 11:07 AM As for making money from Transfering effence from a Wish Scroll. The maths goes as follows...

28,000 gp -> 5,000 xp (change wish scroll into XP)
0.5 gp [market price /2] + 0.2 xp [market price /5] -> 1 gp [market price] (making a magical item)
1 gp [market price] -> 0.5 + 0.01*diplomacy gp [sell price]

So to spend all the XP, multiply the bottem equasion by 25,000
12,500gp + 5000xp -> 25,000gp [market price]
Substitute the wish scroll for the XP cost...
12,500gp + 28,000gp -> 25,000gp [market price]
12,500gp + 28,000gp -> (12,500 + 250*diplomacy) gp [sell price]
40,500 gp -> (12,500 + 250*diplomacy) gp [sell price]
therefore to break even...
28,000 = 250*diplomacy
2800/25 = diplomacy
112 = diplomacy
(The working out may be shown badly (it's been years since I've had to show working), but the result should be accurate.)

You can break even if you have a diplomacy score of +112. It takes 13.5 days to do the above trick once, so basically in 2 weeks you can make 250gp per point of diplomacy you have above 112. Not really worth it.

Lord Kiwi,
geekpocket
07-19-05, 11:48 AM Agreed... the item creation rules suggest that 1 XP = 25 GP in most circumstances.

Do you have a page number for that?

I know the Diplomacy house rule is very abusable, but it hasn't come up yet for a number of reasons.

1 - I'm the only one in our group that regulary reads the CO boards (and think like a CO player)
2 - The other players don't seem to min/max, at least not to the CO standard, so no has actively tried to abuse it.

Heh. Were level 8 and our face character is still selling at around 78%, I think. I'll get around to making a face char that later, but im having fun playing my wizard, and im also just about read to switch to artificer for the first time. anyway.

Magic Traps at first seem like a good idea, but I don't think the party will want to stop for a whole day at every magic trap we come by so the artificer can suck the xp.

As for Golems - that's a toss up. Yes, they are constructed and consume XP in the process, but they are not actually magic items. Unless someone can clarify this I think it would have to be a DM call.

Evil items would normally be a good way to get the xp...but we are playing an evil campaign. Unfortunately the reverse doesnt hold true for not wanting to sell Good magic items, and I don't think there are many churches with Good magic items waiting to be destroyed.
Trance Kuja
07-19-05, 12:54 PM Do you have a page number for that?
Evil items would normally be a good way to get the xp...but we are playing an evil campaign. Unfortunately the reverse doesnt hold true for not wanting to sell Good magic items, and I don't think there are many churches with Good magic items waiting to be destroyed.

Find an evil church with holy items they collected off of dead paladins and clerics of the good deities. Suck up xp and start spitting out unholy items of mass destruction. Most evil churches won't sell the holy avengers and such that they collect outta fear of people buying them and using them against the church.
geekpocket
07-20-05, 08:04 AM A scroll of Limited Wish is a 7th level scroll that costs 3775gp. Included in the scroll is 300xp for a total XP cost of 391 to create it. When you retain it's essence, you get a rough 9.65XP per 1GP of item price.

A scroll of Lesser Planar Ally [as was mentioned above] is a 4th level scroll that costs 1200gp. Included in the scroll is 100xp for a total XP cost 128 to create it. When you retain it's essence, you get a rough 9.35XP per 1GP of item price.

After looking through most of the scroll list in the DMG, these are two of the best scrolls for XP to GP ratio. To compare, a scroll of Wish costs 28825gp, has a total XP cost of 5153 to create, with a 5.59XP to 1GP ratio.

While it may take longer to build up a Craft Reserve in the thousands, it's cheaper to use scrolls of Limited Wish and Lesser Planar Ally. Lesser Planar Ally has the added benefit of only being a 4th level scroll, so it has a greater chance of being available than a 7th or 9th level scroll [Limited Wish and Wish, respectively]

I haven't checked the ratio for many of the wondrous items, simply because I haven't had the time. However, it states the XP cost to create the various Golem Manuals in the description so those were easy to figure.

Clay - 7.00XP per 1GP
Flesh - 8.47XP per 1GP
Iron - 5.95XP per 1GP
Stone - 6.11XP per 1GP
Greater Stone - 5.75XP per 1GP

Because XP costs scale in regard to the price of most magic items, I don't think there will be many, if any, wondrous items that have a clearly superior XP to GP ratio. The Flesh Golem Manual may be a good choice right now, as it costs 8000gp and you get 944XP.
SonsOfKyuss
08-30-05, 04:45 PM I'm currently researching the Artificer class and happened upon this thread. I felt the need to point out that geekpockets ratios are all backwards.

Example: Scroll of Wishes costs 28825 and returns 5153 xp. 28825/5153 = 5.59 gp per xp returned. Geekpockets numbers are right, just the XP and GP need to be switched and his conclusions should be reversed. A scroll of wish has about the best return, although any of the tomes will come in slightly better at 5.39 GP per XP produced.

Unless I'm totally confused here, isn't it better to get more XP for less money?
dog45
08-30-05, 05:04 PM Well, he did fail remedial math...twice, so i'd double check the numbers anyway.

However, the numbers are presented the way they are because the intent of the OP was to maximize the XP return for money spent. So having the 'N XP to 1 GP' ratio relates to which items will give you best return for your money. While the scroll of Wish will give you significantly more XP per Retain Essence use, the ratio of XP gained to GP spent is better with a scroll of Limited Wish. Limited Wish is almost 10 XP per GP spent, whereas Wish is not even 6 XP per GP spent.

Got it?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
geekpocket 07-18-05, 10:24 PM	The Artificiers Retain Essence ability lets them suck the XP that was used to make a magic item and add it to their Craft Reserve. It seems to me the best items to use this with are items that have a high XP cost to create with a low purchase price. This way the Artificer could spend some cash to get additional XP to make what he wanted. Has anyone looked at the DMG items and found any that would work here? Side question: Is there a rule where you can spend extra XP at some ratio of XP to GP to spend less GP when making an item? I seem to remember seeing that somewhere, or I may be completely imagining things.
Quenditar 07-18-05, 10:33 PM	The only cheap item that comes to mind is cantrip scrolls. They contain 1 XP just like scrolls of 1st-level spells, but are half the price.
X-Codes 07-18-05, 10:46 PM	Main Question: You would have to look at spells with XP components for that. The earliest of those, I believe, is Lesser Planar Ally (level 4). Cantrip scrolls, as stated above, are probably your best bet earlier on. Side Question: I'm willing to bet there was a feat like that somewhere, but I've never personally seen it.
geekpocket 07-19-05, 01:05 AM	The problem with the cantrip scrolls is you have to spend a day with each magic item. That's a return of about 1 day per XP, which is a pretty freakin slow way to get some quick Craft Reserve. A scroll of Wish would cost around 28k IIRC, and you'd get a little over 5000XP for one day of work. That should be more than enough to make nearly any item you require; just be sure you use it up before gaining another Artificier level. I'm not sure if the cost of the Wish scroll will pay for itself with the magic items you make from the XP though. If you could burn XP for GP, that could be good, if you then went and sold your new magic items. Perhaps try to recoup the price of the Wish scroll and make some profit. I cant remember where I saw it, but I think it was a 5 GP to 1 XP ratio. Don't know for sure though. If not then pay for crafting your items like regular, but make sure that the combined resale value is greater than the cost of Wish scroll. Anyone have any ideas for items to make for sale? As an aside: Our house rule for selling items goes like this: Start with half the market price. Double your Diplomacy modifier and add it as a percentage to that 50%. So if you had a +10 Diplomacy, you could sell items for 70% market value. Yes, that means if you have a +26 Diplomacy or higher you can sell for more than the market price. Too bad Diplomacy isn't a class skill for Artificers, or I'd be filthy rich.
Quenditar 07-19-05, 01:29 AM	1 XP for 5 GP sounds like the option offered Vow of Poverty spellcasters who need expensive material components. It's a horrible deal unless, for whatever reason, you cannot get the expensive components.
DDogwood 07-19-05, 10:07 AM	1 XP for 5 GP sounds like the option offered Vow of Poverty spellcasters who need expensive material components. It's a horrible deal unless, for whatever reason, you cannot get the expensive components. Agreed... the item creation rules suggest that 1 XP = 25 GP in most circumstances.
Griff_Goodbeard 07-19-05, 10:23 AM	What about magic Traps, and cursed Items. By RAW you should be able to suck the exp out of these otherwise inconveinent things, yes? What about Golems?
Traevanon 07-19-05, 10:42 AM	As an aside: Our house rule for selling items goes like this: Start with half the market price. Double your Diplomacy modifier and add it as a percentage to that 50%. So if you had a +10 Diplomacy, you could sell items for 70% market value. Yes, that means if you have a +26 Diplomacy or higher you can sell for more than the market price. Too bad Diplomacy isn't a class skill for Artificers, or I'd be filthy rich. I use a bit harsher rule myself: Buying items: 125% of the cost - your Diplomacy modifier + NPC Diplomacy modifier Selling Items: 50% of the cost + your Diplomacy modifier - NPC Diplomacy modifier Specific vendors always buy and sell certain things for better deals however.
LordKiwi 07-19-05, 10:46 AM	As an aside: Our house rule for selling items goes like this: Start with half the market price. Double your Diplomacy modifier and add it as a percentage to that 50%. So if you had a +10 Diplomacy, you could sell items for 70% market value. Yes, that means if you have a +26 Diplomacy or higher you can sell for more than the market price. Too bad Diplomacy isn't a class skill for Artificers, or I'd be filthy rich. Then get someone else to sell them, maybe a cohort or another PC. This looks like a very breakable house rule. If you get it over 100% what's to stop you from simply buying and selling magic items to make a large profit, or preferably getting a cohort to do it for you? Lord Kiwi,
Molot 07-19-05, 10:58 AM	What about magic Traps, and cursed Items. By RAW you should be able to suck the exp out of these otherwise inconveinent things, yes? What about Golems? Cursed items should be created with about the same XP that normal magic items. And they are much cheaper... So imho it's a great idea ;) Aslo, if you would suck an XP from cursed sword, then value of the sword itself is enought to be a money component for an item creation: It's value is equal orginal value + cursing cost, wich was actually item creation cost. This gold wasn't burned or anything, it was spent for gems, gold and so on, and they still are there. So, you are buying a cursed sword, and (with no cost of your own but time), you are turning it to cool magic item :D But cursed items aren't popular...
Trance Kuja 07-19-05, 11:02 AM	Besides cursed items, evil items may be a good option. Most evil items can't be used by a good party and sell for crap on the normal market. You may find a church who will strike a deal with you if you suck their cache of evil items they confiscated and spit out a new mace of disruption or holy sword for them. Heck you could save some cash by reusing the now drained evil weapons for the base masterwork weapon to magic up. It be funny to see a Holy Avenger thats made outta blackened adamantine with a skull pommel.
Molot 07-19-05, 11:06 AM	It be funny to see a Holy Avenger thats made outta blackened adamantine with a skull pommel. It would be even more funny to change a "sword of instant slaying good" to the "sword of instant slaying evil"... And leaving it in the place it was taken from, so the owner can touch it... and die, of course :D And you don't need to spend a single sp or XP point for this :schemes:
LordKiwi 07-19-05, 11:07 AM	As for making money from Transfering effence from a Wish Scroll. The maths goes as follows... 28,000 gp -> 5,000 xp (change wish scroll into XP) 0.5 gp [market price /2] + 0.2 xp [market price /5] -> 1 gp [market price] (making a magical item) 1 gp [market price] -> 0.5 + 0.01diplomacy gp [sell price] So to spend all the XP, multiply the bottem equasion by 25,000 12,500gp + 5000xp -> 25,000gp [market price] Substitute the wish scroll for the XP cost... 12,500gp + 28,000gp -> 25,000gp [market price] 12,500gp + 28,000gp -> (12,500 + 250diplomacy) gp [sell price] 40,500 gp -> (12,500 + 250diplomacy) gp [sell price] therefore to break even... 28,000 = 250diplomacy 2800/25 = diplomacy 112 = diplomacy (The working out may be shown badly (it's been years since I've had to show working), but the result should be accurate.) You can break even if you have a diplomacy score of +112. It takes 13.5 days to do the above trick once, so basically in 2 weeks you can make 250gp per point of diplomacy you have above 112. Not really worth it. Lord Kiwi,
geekpocket 07-19-05, 11:48 AM	Agreed... the item creation rules suggest that 1 XP = 25 GP in most circumstances. Do you have a page number for that? I know the Diplomacy house rule is very abusable, but it hasn't come up yet for a number of reasons. 1 - I'm the only one in our group that regulary reads the CO boards (and think like a CO player) 2 - The other players don't seem to min/max, at least not to the CO standard, so no has actively tried to abuse it. Heh. Were level 8 and our face character is still selling at around 78%, I think. I'll get around to making a face char that later, but im having fun playing my wizard, and im also just about read to switch to artificer for the first time. anyway. Magic Traps at first seem like a good idea, but I don't think the party will want to stop for a whole day at every magic trap we come by so the artificer can suck the xp. As for Golems - that's a toss up. Yes, they are constructed and consume XP in the process, but they are not actually magic items. Unless someone can clarify this I think it would have to be a DM call. Evil items would normally be a good way to get the xp...but we are playing an evil campaign. Unfortunately the reverse doesnt hold true for not wanting to sell Good magic items, and I don't think there are many churches with Good magic items waiting to be destroyed.
Trance Kuja 07-19-05, 12:54 PM	Do you have a page number for that? Evil items would normally be a good way to get the xp...but we are playing an evil campaign. Unfortunately the reverse doesnt hold true for not wanting to sell Good magic items, and I don't think there are many churches with Good magic items waiting to be destroyed. Find an evil church with holy items they collected off of dead paladins and clerics of the good deities. Suck up xp and start spitting out unholy items of mass destruction. Most evil churches won't sell the holy avengers and such that they collect outta fear of people buying them and using them against the church.
geekpocket 07-20-05, 08:04 AM	A scroll of Limited Wish is a 7th level scroll that costs 3775gp. Included in the scroll is 300xp for a total XP cost of 391 to create it. When you retain it's essence, you get a rough 9.65XP per 1GP of item price. A scroll of Lesser Planar Ally [as was mentioned above] is a 4th level scroll that costs 1200gp. Included in the scroll is 100xp for a total XP cost 128 to create it. When you retain it's essence, you get a rough 9.35XP per 1GP of item price. After looking through most of the scroll list in the DMG, these are two of the best scrolls for XP to GP ratio. To compare, a scroll of Wish costs 28825gp, has a total XP cost of 5153 to create, with a 5.59XP to 1GP ratio. While it may take longer to build up a Craft Reserve in the thousands, it's cheaper to use scrolls of Limited Wish and Lesser Planar Ally. Lesser Planar Ally has the added benefit of only being a 4th level scroll, so it has a greater chance of being available than a 7th or 9th level scroll [Limited Wish and Wish, respectively] I haven't checked the ratio for many of the wondrous items, simply because I haven't had the time. However, it states the XP cost to create the various Golem Manuals in the description so those were easy to figure. Clay - 7.00XP per 1GP Flesh - 8.47XP per 1GP Iron - 5.95XP per 1GP Stone - 6.11XP per 1GP Greater Stone - 5.75XP per 1GP Because XP costs scale in regard to the price of most magic items, I don't think there will be many, if any, wondrous items that have a clearly superior XP to GP ratio. The Flesh Golem Manual may be a good choice right now, as it costs 8000gp and you get 944XP.
SonsOfKyuss 08-30-05, 04:45 PM	I'm currently researching the Artificer class and happened upon this thread. I felt the need to point out that geekpockets ratios are all backwards. Example: Scroll of Wishes costs 28825 and returns 5153 xp. 28825/5153 = 5.59 gp per xp returned. Geekpockets numbers are right, just the XP and GP need to be switched and his conclusions should be reversed. A scroll of wish has about the best return, although any of the tomes will come in slightly better at 5.39 GP per XP produced. Unless I'm totally confused here, isn't it better to get more XP for less money?
dog45 08-30-05, 05:04 PM	Well, he did fail remedial math...twice, so i'd double check the numbers anyway. However, the numbers are presented the way they are because the intent of the OP was to maximize the XP return for money spent. So having the 'N XP to 1 GP' ratio relates to which items will give you best return for your money. While the scroll of Wish will give you significantly more XP per Retain Essence use, the ratio of XP gained to GP spent is better with a scroll of Limited Wish. Limited Wish is almost 10 XP per GP spent, whereas Wish is not even 6 XP per GP spent. Got it?