Best Killing Machine/Rogue concept? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Killing Machine/Rogue concept? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AkumaDaimyo
05-27-04, 02:15 AM I'm just wondering on how to make a effective combat pc, not just against monsters but other pcs. I'm playing (or going to be at least) playing in a game where the mood is going to be very grey and as far as I know there may be PC vs PC conflict. So what I want to do is make a PC who can hold his own against the other pcs. I find with one of my current groups that it keeps coming down to very "Grey Hand" politics against one of the players. He always learns how to make the most combat effective PC and if you dont go with what he wants he bullys you for the most part. He hasnt killed anyone but he keeps saying he can. The D&D game I will be playing in he is actually running but with how he thinks and acts I expect the other players to perhaps start acting the same way.

I like playing Rogues so can anyone help me from there?
Also list any races up to ECL lvl 4 that might work well. However he is using this weird optional rule that any races with ECL up to 4 can be played at 1st level but they dont gain any exp until the other pcs reach their total ECL level. Anyways I await peoples expert advice on this.
Funny Slaughter
05-27-04, 03:38 AM hmm, this optional rule makes ecl-chars quite strong in the beginning but after this they gain nothing, for me it would be too frustrating to see my buddys grabbing their new feats etc. four times...

as for your rogue killing machine:
rogue3 (or 4) is a good base for nearly any PrC, combine with swashbuckler, fighter, barbarian or ranger as you like to.

the main question now is: how ar do you want to go?
give some more info:
- core/PHB rogue/fighter is the one end
- feral anthropomorphic giant squid maybe the other

what are you most likely to face? lies and poison? or direct attacks?

gs
Funny
AkumaDaimyo
05-27-04, 04:28 AM Well I just want a PC who can hold his own against most things. Good saves are important of course. I dont want to be constantly told that someone else's PC is going to easily kill mine if I dont do what he/she wants. That upsets me a lot. So I'm looking for a decent class/race combo to go with as far as a Rogue goes. I want to be able to dish it out and take it too.
Funny Slaughter
05-27-04, 04:50 AM i made a powerful rogue-based build quite some time ago and am playing it myself through RttToeE

its a feral human, started as rogue and went rogue3/fighter2/barbarian1/holy liberator3

i dont really know about the new HL, but beside the missing of turn undead and new skill requirements it should be still a decent PrC.

the key for this char is trip, with the heightened strength from feral and rage as well as some feats (jotunbrud, wolf berserker, improved trip) he can get really high trip-checks.

my own build got these feats and spent the rest qualifying for windwalker, but thats personal preference and a long way to go, too.

with fast healing, darkvision, 50ft move, rage, sneak attack, evasion, smite evil, divine grace etc. you have loads of benefits within the medium levels, most of them come into play quite early.
as you have a good reflex and fort-save and aquiring iron will as well as a good will-save later on you will be pretty well set with your saves, just wait for divine grace to leave everybody else behind.

with high strength and a big weapon you can do quite some damage, using your claw-weapons as backup is also an option.
a reach-weapon is also great, spiked (or blunt) chain is obvious, glaive or similar would work as well as your claws threaten 5ft.

the only drawback is that you are not really that rogue-ish, three levels is all you get. but at lvl 10 you are free to go, if you like to continue in a rogue-PrC that should be fine.

gs
Funny
fozzybear
05-27-04, 05:59 AM Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo
Well I just want a PC who can hold his own against most things. Good saves are important of course. I dont want to be constantly told that someone else's PC is going to easily kill mine if I dont do what he/she wants. That upsets me a lot. So I'm looking for a decent class/race combo to go with as far as a Rogue goes. I want to be able to dish it out and take it too.

Just slit the PC's throat next time he goes to sleep, problem solved.
Ramses III
05-27-04, 06:46 AM As Funny Slaughter posted, Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1 is a sweet opening to a combat rogue build. I used this for my assassin, then went Gladiator 2 (it was 3e) and Assassin (i don't recommend the last class, it's pretty underpowered especially if you take it at that level as i found out). In 3.5 I would go Rog3/Ftr2/Bbn1/Rog6/then into the PrC of your choice. How about Dervish? The world needs more Dervishes.
laotching
05-27-04, 07:01 AM First of all, if you're constantly playing campaigns in which you're being upset because your character is being literally bullied by the other characters, you might want to bring this up with the other players. Or just tell them, "Fine. Have it your way this time, but don't F with me again." And if they pull that crap again, like fozzybear said, coup-de-grace them (you get your nice sneak attack bonuses too, I believe) when they're asleep. That'll teach them to play a cooperative game. No player should be controlling the others without their consent.
laotching
05-27-04, 07:10 AM Oh, and if you want a build, I have a nightmare of a rogue I built a few weeks ago:

Thri-kreen shadow-walker, Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Invisible Blade 5/Guild Thief 3/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Monk 1/Tatooed Monk 1

The build centers around you sneak attacking with the full attack action, doing 5d6 (eventually 6d6 at level 20) plus kukri base damage with each of 3 iterative attacks with each of 4 arms. The beauty is that you are almost self-sufficient, since you can cast Shadowlord spells, have Shadow-walker spell-like abilities, can sneak attack by invisibility, flanking (get into good position with spring attack), and feinting as a free action between each and every attack roll. Since you get +10 bluff from Tattooed Monk, it becomes a lot easier.

You do get your nifty shadowlord special stuff later, and the bluff bonuses from Tattooed monk at level 19. What you can do is switch around the monk + tattooed monk levels with the shadowlord levels if you're more combat oriented, or even switch the shadowlord levels before the invisible blade, if the campaign is more roleplaying/non-combat oriented.

The one thing of note is you need to either buy off 3 LA or play up to actual character level 20, not effective character level 20.

Edit: I just looked at the Thri-kreen in XPH again, and it's better than I thought. That extra LA is worth it after all. You get chameleon three times a day, which is awesome for the shadowy rogue this guy is, plus you get a poisonous bite attack to paralyze someone once a day. Also, that bite is an extra attack with a very possible extra 5d6 sneak damage.
catharz
05-27-04, 07:24 AM Originally posted by laotching
The one thing of note is you need to either buy off 3 LA or play up to actual character level 20, not effective character level 20.

Cool build, but aren't Thri-kreen LA+1? Making the total LA+2?
laotching
05-27-04, 07:42 AM It was originally 1 for non-psionic Thri-kreen (and 3 for psionic ones), but in the new XPH they consolidated it into one 2LA race. Eh. Never liked psionics much, but I follow the rules. If only they didn't print three different versions of the thri-kreen in three different books...
catharz
05-27-04, 08:20 AM Originally posted by laotching
It was originally 1 for non-psionic Thri-kreen (and 3 for psionic ones), but in the new XPH they consolidated it into one 2LA race. Eh. Never liked psionics much, but I follow the rules. If only they didn't print three different versions of the thri-kreen in three different books...

From now on I am ignoring any WotC 'replacements' unless it is in the errata or a totally new edition or I happen to like it better.

And I think I like the new 'Kreen better, although it is odd that they are medium, and that their butts went from J-lo to Spears.
AkumaDaimyo
05-27-04, 10:49 AM Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure though that I will get to take whatever prestiege class I want. There will probably need to be some rhyme and reason for it. He's said there will be RP as well so its not really like you just go into a store and buy the prestiege class because you have the qualifications for it. So I might not be able to min-max him to complete optimization but I will think about some of those combinations. Where is the ShadowWalker from? I dont own every core book. I own all the "handbooks" like Tomb and Blood and those ones, Book of Vile Darkness, The PHB, MM, DMG, Psionic Handbook and I think thats about it for core rulebooks with Prestiege Classes. So I think I need Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Minatures Handbook and Book of Exhaulted Deeds at least.
necrosnoop110
05-27-04, 11:28 AM Rogue3/ Fighter2/ Barbarian1/ Holy Liberator3/ XX

So what are some good rogue PrCs to tack onto the end of this build?
Khazra
05-27-04, 11:37 AM Can you be evil? If so id say rogue 12/ disciple of dispater 8. This build is just plain nasty thanks to all good saves, Full BaB, D10 HD & the nasty abilities you get (mainly 3 times crit range stackable with improved crit!). Either use a 18-20 crit range weapon or a 4X crit multiplier. If you like the classic knife approach then you want the stump-knife (good for backstory, only 19-20 crit but after you have hit some once the crit range becomes 17-20 or with improved crit 5-20!!) or convince your DM to let you have a mercurial dagger (as mercurial great-sword & long sword).
capt. narcissist
05-27-04, 01:33 PM how bout Rogue/fighter with

two weapon tree
improved buckler defense
weapon focus (short sword)
weapon finesse
improved initiative
AkumaDaimyo
05-27-04, 02:13 PM What book is Discipline of Dispater from?
capt. narcissist
05-27-04, 02:40 PM book of vile darkness I believe.
AkumaDaimyo
05-27-04, 04:58 PM The only thing is if I'm evil then smite evil works on me as well as other spells specifically designed to hurt evil folks.
AkumaDaimyo
05-27-04, 06:02 PM Im also wondering if Psion/Rogue is any good at all? Some of those psion powers are just nasty.
Ramses III
05-28-04, 05:06 AM Psychic Warrior/Rogue will serve you better than Psion/Rogue. You still get 3/4 BAB, and d8 HD will let you hold your own a lot better in combat. With Improved Feint, a PW/Rog is the king of one-shots. Take Psionic Weapon and Greater Psionic Weapon and the level 2 power Dissolving Weapon, and you get an extra 8d6 dice of damage on one attack, on top of your sneak attack damage. A level 8 character can get +11d8 with this combo by going PW3/Rog5, with no exp penalty if the character is a human, half-elf, halfling or half-giant. Take the feats Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, and Deep Impact and the attack is a touch attack. IIRC even a human has to be level 9 to have this full suite of feats, but you will be a real threat to your fellow PCs of killing them in one attack the whole time you are leveling together, and once you can pull off this combo you are practically guaranteed to kill them if they mess with you -- even if they are standing there fully aware, expect you to attack them, and have uncanny dodge.
AkumaDaimyo
05-28-04, 01:14 PM Will that combo also work in 3.0?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AkumaDaimyo 05-27-04, 02:15 AM	I'm just wondering on how to make a effective combat pc, not just against monsters but other pcs. I'm playing (or going to be at least) playing in a game where the mood is going to be very grey and as far as I know there may be PC vs PC conflict. So what I want to do is make a PC who can hold his own against the other pcs. I find with one of my current groups that it keeps coming down to very "Grey Hand" politics against one of the players. He always learns how to make the most combat effective PC and if you dont go with what he wants he bullys you for the most part. He hasnt killed anyone but he keeps saying he can. The D&D game I will be playing in he is actually running but with how he thinks and acts I expect the other players to perhaps start acting the same way. I like playing Rogues so can anyone help me from there? Also list any races up to ECL lvl 4 that might work well. However he is using this weird optional rule that any races with ECL up to 4 can be played at 1st level but they dont gain any exp until the other pcs reach their total ECL level. Anyways I await peoples expert advice on this.
Funny Slaughter 05-27-04, 03:38 AM	hmm, this optional rule makes ecl-chars quite strong in the beginning but after this they gain nothing, for me it would be too frustrating to see my buddys grabbing their new feats etc. four times... as for your rogue killing machine: rogue3 (or 4) is a good base for nearly any PrC, combine with swashbuckler, fighter, barbarian or ranger as you like to. the main question now is: how ar do you want to go? give some more info: - core/PHB rogue/fighter is the one end - feral anthropomorphic giant squid maybe the other what are you most likely to face? lies and poison? or direct attacks? gs Funny
AkumaDaimyo 05-27-04, 04:28 AM	Well I just want a PC who can hold his own against most things. Good saves are important of course. I dont want to be constantly told that someone else's PC is going to easily kill mine if I dont do what he/she wants. That upsets me a lot. So I'm looking for a decent class/race combo to go with as far as a Rogue goes. I want to be able to dish it out and take it too.
Funny Slaughter 05-27-04, 04:50 AM	i made a powerful rogue-based build quite some time ago and am playing it myself through RttToeE its a feral human, started as rogue and went rogue3/fighter2/barbarian1/holy liberator3 i dont really know about the new HL, but beside the missing of turn undead and new skill requirements it should be still a decent PrC. the key for this char is trip, with the heightened strength from feral and rage as well as some feats (jotunbrud, wolf berserker, improved trip) he can get really high trip-checks. my own build got these feats and spent the rest qualifying for windwalker, but thats personal preference and a long way to go, too. with fast healing, darkvision, 50ft move, rage, sneak attack, evasion, smite evil, divine grace etc. you have loads of benefits within the medium levels, most of them come into play quite early. as you have a good reflex and fort-save and aquiring iron will as well as a good will-save later on you will be pretty well set with your saves, just wait for divine grace to leave everybody else behind. with high strength and a big weapon you can do quite some damage, using your claw-weapons as backup is also an option. a reach-weapon is also great, spiked (or blunt) chain is obvious, glaive or similar would work as well as your claws threaten 5ft. the only drawback is that you are not really that rogue-ish, three levels is all you get. but at lvl 10 you are free to go, if you like to continue in a rogue-PrC that should be fine. gs Funny
fozzybear 05-27-04, 05:59 AM	Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo Well I just want a PC who can hold his own against most things. Good saves are important of course. I dont want to be constantly told that someone else's PC is going to easily kill mine if I dont do what he/she wants. That upsets me a lot. So I'm looking for a decent class/race combo to go with as far as a Rogue goes. I want to be able to dish it out and take it too. Just slit the PC's throat next time he goes to sleep, problem solved.
Ramses III 05-27-04, 06:46 AM	As Funny Slaughter posted, Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1 is a sweet opening to a combat rogue build. I used this for my assassin, then went Gladiator 2 (it was 3e) and Assassin (i don't recommend the last class, it's pretty underpowered especially if you take it at that level as i found out). In 3.5 I would go Rog3/Ftr2/Bbn1/Rog6/then into the PrC of your choice. How about Dervish? The world needs more Dervishes.
laotching 05-27-04, 07:01 AM	First of all, if you're constantly playing campaigns in which you're being upset because your character is being literally bullied by the other characters, you might want to bring this up with the other players. Or just tell them, "Fine. Have it your way this time, but don't F with me again." And if they pull that crap again, like fozzybear said, coup-de-grace them (you get your nice sneak attack bonuses too, I believe) when they're asleep. That'll teach them to play a cooperative game. No player should be controlling the others without their consent.
laotching 05-27-04, 07:10 AM	Oh, and if you want a build, I have a nightmare of a rogue I built a few weeks ago: Thri-kreen shadow-walker, Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Invisible Blade 5/Guild Thief 3/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Monk 1/Tatooed Monk 1 The build centers around you sneak attacking with the full attack action, doing 5d6 (eventually 6d6 at level 20) plus kukri base damage with each of 3 iterative attacks with each of 4 arms. The beauty is that you are almost self-sufficient, since you can cast Shadowlord spells, have Shadow-walker spell-like abilities, can sneak attack by invisibility, flanking (get into good position with spring attack), and feinting as a free action between each and every attack roll. Since you get +10 bluff from Tattooed Monk, it becomes a lot easier. You do get your nifty shadowlord special stuff later, and the bluff bonuses from Tattooed monk at level 19. What you can do is switch around the monk + tattooed monk levels with the shadowlord levels if you're more combat oriented, or even switch the shadowlord levels before the invisible blade, if the campaign is more roleplaying/non-combat oriented. The one thing of note is you need to either buy off 3 LA or play up to actual character level 20, not effective character level 20. Edit: I just looked at the Thri-kreen in XPH again, and it's better than I thought. That extra LA is worth it after all. You get chameleon three times a day, which is awesome for the shadowy rogue this guy is, plus you get a poisonous bite attack to paralyze someone once a day. Also, that bite is an extra attack with a very possible extra 5d6 sneak damage.
catharz 05-27-04, 07:24 AM	Originally posted by laotching The one thing of note is you need to either buy off 3 LA or play up to actual character level 20, not effective character level 20. Cool build, but aren't Thri-kreen LA+1? Making the total LA+2?
laotching 05-27-04, 07:42 AM	It was originally 1 for non-psionic Thri-kreen (and 3 for psionic ones), but in the new XPH they consolidated it into one 2LA race. Eh. Never liked psionics much, but I follow the rules. If only they didn't print three different versions of the thri-kreen in three different books...
catharz 05-27-04, 08:20 AM	Originally posted by laotching It was originally 1 for non-psionic Thri-kreen (and 3 for psionic ones), but in the new XPH they consolidated it into one 2LA race. Eh. Never liked psionics much, but I follow the rules. If only they didn't print three different versions of the thri-kreen in three different books... From now on I am ignoring any WotC 'replacements' unless it is in the errata or a totally new edition or I happen to like it better. And I think I like the new 'Kreen better, although it is odd that they are medium, and that their butts went from J-lo to Spears.
AkumaDaimyo 05-27-04, 10:49 AM	Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure though that I will get to take whatever prestiege class I want. There will probably need to be some rhyme and reason for it. He's said there will be RP as well so its not really like you just go into a store and buy the prestiege class because you have the qualifications for it. So I might not be able to min-max him to complete optimization but I will think about some of those combinations. Where is the ShadowWalker from? I dont own every core book. I own all the "handbooks" like Tomb and Blood and those ones, Book of Vile Darkness, The PHB, MM, DMG, Psionic Handbook and I think thats about it for core rulebooks with Prestiege Classes. So I think I need Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Minatures Handbook and Book of Exhaulted Deeds at least.
necrosnoop110 05-27-04, 11:28 AM	Rogue3/ Fighter2/ Barbarian1/ Holy Liberator3/ XX So what are some good rogue PrCs to tack onto the end of this build?
Khazra 05-27-04, 11:37 AM	Can you be evil? If so id say rogue 12/ disciple of dispater 8. This build is just plain nasty thanks to all good saves, Full BaB, D10 HD & the nasty abilities you get (mainly 3 times crit range stackable with improved crit!). Either use a 18-20 crit range weapon or a 4X crit multiplier. If you like the classic knife approach then you want the stump-knife (good for backstory, only 19-20 crit but after you have hit some once the crit range becomes 17-20 or with improved crit 5-20!!) or convince your DM to let you have a mercurial dagger (as mercurial great-sword & long sword).
capt. narcissist 05-27-04, 01:33 PM	how bout Rogue/fighter with two weapon tree improved buckler defense weapon focus (short sword) weapon finesse improved initiative
AkumaDaimyo 05-27-04, 02:13 PM	What book is Discipline of Dispater from?
capt. narcissist 05-27-04, 02:40 PM	book of vile darkness I believe.
AkumaDaimyo 05-27-04, 04:58 PM	The only thing is if I'm evil then smite evil works on me as well as other spells specifically designed to hurt evil folks.
AkumaDaimyo 05-27-04, 06:02 PM	Im also wondering if Psion/Rogue is any good at all? Some of those psion powers are just nasty.
Ramses III 05-28-04, 05:06 AM	Psychic Warrior/Rogue will serve you better than Psion/Rogue. You still get 3/4 BAB, and d8 HD will let you hold your own a lot better in combat. With Improved Feint, a PW/Rog is the king of one-shots. Take Psionic Weapon and Greater Psionic Weapon and the level 2 power Dissolving Weapon, and you get an extra 8d6 dice of damage on one attack, on top of your sneak attack damage. A level 8 character can get +11d8 with this combo by going PW3/Rog5, with no exp penalty if the character is a human, half-elf, halfling or half-giant. Take the feats Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, and Deep Impact and the attack is a touch attack. IIRC even a human has to be level 9 to have this full suite of feats, but you will be a real threat to your fellow PCs of killing them in one attack the whole time you are leveling together, and once you can pull off this combo you are practically guaranteed to kill them if they mess with you -- even if they are standing there fully aware, expect you to attack them, and have uncanny dodge.
AkumaDaimyo 05-28-04, 01:14 PM	Will that combo also work in 3.0?