best Loremaster secret? [Archive] - Wizards Community

best Loremaster secret? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
foxylady
04-12-04, 09:50 PM What are the best Loremaster secrets for a Wiz/Loremaster/Harper Mage?
Outsider Subtype
04-12-04, 11:04 PM The secrets aren't that bad. Instant Mastery: Use Magic Device is a personal favorite. One of them gets you a free feat.
Panqui
04-28-04, 11:05 AM I'm playing a Loremaster for the first time, so I'll be selfish and bump this thread. :)

:bump:
Beamup
04-28-04, 11:30 AM The one that gives you a bonus feat, I'd say.

- The HP and save secrets can be duplicated (or improved upon) by a feat.
- +4 ranks in a skill isn't much better than Skill Focus.
- Weapon Focus(Ray) is just about as good for a mage as +1 BAB.
- Dodge is a large fraction of the benefits of +1 to AC.
- Bonus 1st or 2nd level spell slots are the only ones that can't be roughly duplicated by a PHB feat, but aren't that great once you reach a level where you can take them.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man
04-28-04, 11:57 AM - +4 ranks in a skill isn't much better than Skill Focus.

Not if those +4 ranks are in a cross-class skill for the Loremaster. Because then, its like getting 8 skill points, not 4.

Never underestimate the power of skill ranks.
Mith
04-28-04, 12:30 PM The feat is probably the most powerful, but one of my favorites is to get the 4 ranks in Speak Language. After that, I'd say use one or two secrets to shore up bad saves if any of your saves are truly pitiful, then get +1 AC, and after that +1 attack, if you have enough.

The extra slots are fairly worthless, IMO. And the +3 HP one is pitiful.
Beamup
04-28-04, 12:52 PM Originally posted by Dirty Dan the Laundry Man
Not if those +4 ranks are in a cross-class skill for the Loremaster. Because then, its like getting 8 skill points, not 4.

Never underestimate the power of skill ranks.

+3 bonus vs. +4 bonus whether it's cross-class or not. Big whoop. Not to mention the fact that you can apply Skill Focus to something you actually use (and therefore have ranks in).
eRaz0r
04-28-04, 02:25 PM seriously, 4 ranks in something you don't have is neither better nor worse than +3 skill (not ranks, btw) in something you do.

Remember - for Synergies etc, you need ranks.

4 ranks in any skill means you're only 1 rank away from something that could give you a +2 in something else from synergy. Similarly, if it's Cross Class, you're getting 8 skill points.

+3 to your skill in something you already have is nice if you really need it. But there's only a few times I'd waste a feat on a Skill focus, because I'd rather take that feat and use it for something more useful. In one level I can probably get that +3 in a skill just from skill points, and there's not many times when I need more than Max Rank in a skill.

I think each secret is pretty well balanced with each other. None of them are particlarly overpowered, but the utility of a bonus feat is a little better, since you can use it for any feat you qualify for, whereas each of the other secrets has a specific and limited application.

When it comes down to it, the Feat and the Skill ranks can both be used to help qualify for another PrC, whereas none of the other secrets can.
Snow Savant
04-28-04, 02:40 PM Originally posted by Beamup
+3 bonus vs. +4 bonus whether it's cross-class or not. Big whoop. Not to mention the fact that you can apply Skill Focus to something you actually use (and therefore have ranks in).

In a new campaign, I am currently running a Wizard with Harper Mage & Loremaster levels. I will eventually take some Archmage levels.

I took my first secret as Skill Instant Mastery for the Spot skill (prior HM levels were needed to catch-up in Hide, MS, & Listen). Why? My current 11th level Wizard has a maxed-out Move Silent and Hide skills. She also has a super high ranking in Spot and Listen (which are boosted by magic items as well). Which Instant Mastery helped her achieve due to the detailed finessing of her skill ranks needed to get her to be equally skilled in Scout skills in addition to traditional Wizard skills.

Without Instant Mastery, I could not have done this. Indeed, this is a niche build that used this instant boost to skill points ... one that other PrC's cannot provide for the character angle she wishes to pursue.

And to note, this Harper Loremaster of mine, is a better stealth and scout expert than a traditional Arcane Trickster. Primarily because she has expanded skill ranks up the wazoo, but also because she has full spellcaster progression.

Instant Mastery has its place - primarily for skill-based Wizards who have branched-out skills beyond those of trad Wizards.

So as far as your "big whoop" statement goes, Beamup, you may want to think of all the build permutations that Loremaster Secrets can be used for before saying such a thing. Some top tier builds really take advantage of power-skill mechanics. A rather noteworthy issue since the CO Board in general tends to give short shrift to skills in lieu of other power mechanics.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
ninjarabbit
04-28-04, 03:44 PM The +3 hp isn't bad, especially if you combine it with a toad familar, toughness, and if you happen to be a gnome or dwarf, giving you great hps for a character that isn't supposed to have good hps.

Instant mastery is great, good in combo with a familar that gives you a bonus to a particular skill, though I really don't recommend it with UMD for three reasons. First you aren't taking it anyways in order to qualify for it as a loremaster, second is that many wizards use charisma as a dump stat, third is that you need way more than four ranks plus an above average cha modifier to make UMD worthwhile.
ck2001wendt
04-28-04, 04:12 PM Loremaster is one of the better PrCs, and seems quite undervalued sometimes.

My personal favorite build is working toward a Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10, with 2 levels in Archmage, 2 in Harper Mage and 1 in Loremaster. By the late levels, it's almost certain that you've got a +7 Int bonus. One level of Loremaster=Free Feat. It's also costless to obtain; Incantatrix supplies the three Metamagic feats and Harper Mage the Skill req.

The plan for me is to take Harper Mage 13-14, Archmage 15-16, but to fit in that level of Loremaster as soon as my Int is +7.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
foxylady 04-12-04, 09:50 PM	What are the best Loremaster secrets for a Wiz/Loremaster/Harper Mage?
Outsider Subtype 04-12-04, 11:04 PM	The secrets aren't that bad. Instant Mastery: Use Magic Device is a personal favorite. One of them gets you a free feat.
Panqui 04-28-04, 11:05 AM	I'm playing a Loremaster for the first time, so I'll be selfish and bump this thread. :) :bump:
Beamup 04-28-04, 11:30 AM	The one that gives you a bonus feat, I'd say. - The HP and save secrets can be duplicated (or improved upon) by a feat. - +4 ranks in a skill isn't much better than Skill Focus. - Weapon Focus(Ray) is just about as good for a mage as +1 BAB. - Dodge is a large fraction of the benefits of +1 to AC. - Bonus 1st or 2nd level spell slots are the only ones that can't be roughly duplicated by a PHB feat, but aren't that great once you reach a level where you can take them.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 04-28-04, 11:57 AM	- +4 ranks in a skill isn't much better than Skill Focus. Not if those +4 ranks are in a cross-class skill for the Loremaster. Because then, its like getting 8 skill points, not 4. Never underestimate the power of skill ranks.
Mith 04-28-04, 12:30 PM	The feat is probably the most powerful, but one of my favorites is to get the 4 ranks in Speak Language. After that, I'd say use one or two secrets to shore up bad saves if any of your saves are truly pitiful, then get +1 AC, and after that +1 attack, if you have enough. The extra slots are fairly worthless, IMO. And the +3 HP one is pitiful.
Beamup 04-28-04, 12:52 PM	Originally posted by Dirty Dan the Laundry Man Not if those +4 ranks are in a cross-class skill for the Loremaster. Because then, its like getting 8 skill points, not 4. Never underestimate the power of skill ranks. +3 bonus vs. +4 bonus whether it's cross-class or not. Big whoop. Not to mention the fact that you can apply Skill Focus to something you actually use (and therefore have ranks in).
eRaz0r 04-28-04, 02:25 PM	seriously, 4 ranks in something you don't have is neither better nor worse than +3 skill (not ranks, btw) in something you do. Remember - for Synergies etc, you need ranks. 4 ranks in any skill means you're only 1 rank away from something that could give you a +2 in something else from synergy. Similarly, if it's Cross Class, you're getting 8 skill points. +3 to your skill in something you already have is nice if you really need it. But there's only a few times I'd waste a feat on a Skill focus, because I'd rather take that feat and use it for something more useful. In one level I can probably get that +3 in a skill just from skill points, and there's not many times when I need more than Max Rank in a skill. I think each secret is pretty well balanced with each other. None of them are particlarly overpowered, but the utility of a bonus feat is a little better, since you can use it for any feat you qualify for, whereas each of the other secrets has a specific and limited application. When it comes down to it, the Feat and the Skill ranks can both be used to help qualify for another PrC, whereas none of the other secrets can.
Snow Savant 04-28-04, 02:40 PM	Originally posted by Beamup +3 bonus vs. +4 bonus whether it's cross-class or not. Big whoop. Not to mention the fact that you can apply Skill Focus to something you actually use (and therefore have ranks in). In a new campaign, I am currently running a Wizard with Harper Mage & Loremaster levels. I will eventually take some Archmage levels. I took my first secret as Skill Instant Mastery for the Spot skill (prior HM levels were needed to catch-up in Hide, MS, & Listen). Why? My current 11th level Wizard has a maxed-out Move Silent and Hide skills. She also has a super high ranking in Spot and Listen (which are boosted by magic items as well). Which Instant Mastery helped her achieve due to the detailed finessing of her skill ranks needed to get her to be equally skilled in Scout skills in addition to traditional Wizard skills. Without Instant Mastery, I could not have done this. Indeed, this is a niche build that used this instant boost to skill points ... one that other PrC's cannot provide for the character angle she wishes to pursue. And to note, this Harper Loremaster of mine, is a better stealth and scout expert than a traditional Arcane Trickster. Primarily because she has expanded skill ranks up the wazoo, but also because she has full spellcaster progression. Instant Mastery has its place - primarily for skill-based Wizards who have branched-out skills beyond those of trad Wizards. So as far as your "big whoop" statement goes, Beamup, you may want to think of all the build permutations that Loremaster Secrets can be used for before saying such a thing. Some top tier builds really take advantage of power-skill mechanics. A rather noteworthy issue since the CO Board in general tends to give short shrift to skills in lieu of other power mechanics. XO, Snow :cloud9:
ninjarabbit 04-28-04, 03:44 PM	The +3 hp isn't bad, especially if you combine it with a toad familar, toughness, and if you happen to be a gnome or dwarf, giving you great hps for a character that isn't supposed to have good hps. Instant mastery is great, good in combo with a familar that gives you a bonus to a particular skill, though I really don't recommend it with UMD for three reasons. First you aren't taking it anyways in order to qualify for it as a loremaster, second is that many wizards use charisma as a dump stat, third is that you need way more than four ranks plus an above average cha modifier to make UMD worthwhile.
ck2001wendt 04-28-04, 04:12 PM	Loremaster is one of the better PrCs, and seems quite undervalued sometimes. My personal favorite build is working toward a Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10, with 2 levels in Archmage, 2 in Harper Mage and 1 in Loremaster. By the late levels, it's almost certain that you've got a +7 Int bonus. One level of Loremaster=Free Feat. It's also costless to obtain; Incantatrix supplies the three Metamagic feats and Harper Mage the Skill req. The plan for me is to take Harper Mage 13-14, Archmage 15-16, but to fit in that level of Loremaster as soon as my Int is +7.