Best low income/low resource classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best low income/low resource classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TrackStar
08-10-05, 10:50 AM I want to make a character that needs next to nothing in resources and items but can still be a devastating figure.

All books are open. v3.0 (and anything "Races of" and "Complete" books, etc.)

The reason is that in a game I am playing, the DM has a thing about lettin gus have "too much" money, whne infact he starves us. The same goes for magic items. He has even put a limit of +3 weapons that can be bought at stores. Keep in mind we are lvl 14-17 characters. So this is rediculous. I basically want to retire my character and make somthing like a monk with VoP.

Help me kick my DM's game in the $%^&!
Vestigial_Thumb
08-10-05, 11:01 AM Well... BTW your DM is an idiot... The sorcerer doesn't really need alot to be powerful. Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Mage Armor are two 3rd level spells that whoop some real 4$$. Give the fighter-kind-of-person a dose of GMW, Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance and he'll be your friend forever. The best buff spells are mostly 3rd level or lower, the best attack spells are 4th level or higher (coincidence?) so you can pack a real punch. Did I mention that your DM is an idiot? :)
Limit
08-10-05, 11:04 AM I basically want to retire my character and make somthing like a monk with VoP.

Well, monk or druid with VoP was the first thing that came to my mind.

There are some classes that can craft their own weapons as a class ability so that your DM doesn't have to give them to you or let you buy them.

Soulknife (XPH)
Kensai (CW)
Samurai (OA)
The Ancestral Relic feat (BoED)

You could also take crafting feats or be an Artificer and make anything you want yourself.
TrackStar
08-10-05, 11:07 AM Oh yea, I forgot to mention, he has used disjunction on us twice. He is a punk.

Can you guys show me some optimized builds?

Possable optimizing templates would be nice as well for what ever build you all can think of! :)
DisposableHero_
08-10-05, 11:37 AM Worth mentioning that without components or Foci and Psicrystals provided by a feat, Psions are not very gear dependant.
Borin
08-10-05, 11:50 AM Druid, sorcerer or psion with VoP! Make heavy use of other forms through wildshape, polymorph or metamorphosis. Pity you can't use shapechange with VoP because of the expensive focus. Although I think shapechange is potentially better than all the bonuses of VoP together.

Druid is very strong overall, and the nice thing of VoP is that all the bonuses carry over to forms that otherwise would have had a problem using equipment. Probably still not as good as a druid with lots of money, but if you're pretty sure you're not getting the cash you need a VoP druid is a pretty powerful option. MUCH more powerful than monk in almost every way.
GoofsterStud
08-10-05, 12:00 PM Book of Exalted Deeds

Ancestral Relic
(Good characters should be taken care of!)
El_Machinae
08-10-05, 02:27 PM If the DM really starves them for cash, then Ancestral Relic may or may not be a good choice.

Ancestral Relic really shines if the DM gives the NPCs a lot of "little" treasure, but with poor portability or resale value. Adamantine swords and +1 rings will eventually go into the meat grinder.

I find the best use of an Ancestral Relic is to purchase a book. Then the book can be "prayed" to contain anything from a scroll to a tome of wisdom.
lostone
08-10-05, 02:38 PM Pick a class that needs little in gear such as a warlock (no spell components at all) or monk (nothing but clothes needed). Take the vow of povery. Get the Mineral Warrior and/or Feral templates. Any treasure you get use to fund a soup kitchen or orphanage.
PhaedrusXY
08-10-05, 02:49 PM As has already been said, pretty much any spellcaster (including psions, and particularly druids and clerics), or a VoP monk, are probably your best bets. When you can generate your own magical effects for free, you don't need to rely on magic items as much. Kensai is another good option, if you want to go with a non-spellcaster.

For the cleric, just make use of spells like Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, etc. I normally don't bother getting magic weapons and armor with my clerics until I already several other magic items like Prayer Beads, etc. And even then, I never get more than a +1 enhancement bonus on them. Why bother when I can add that myself with a spell, and can instead get more special abilities, like Soulfire, added to the armor itself?
Lilt
08-10-05, 03:53 PM Monks are not a no-equipment class, they want big +wisdom and +dex and +strength and +con items, they also want an amulet of mighty fists amongst other things.

Now going a VoP character changes things, but VoP doesn't let you use the little magic trinkets that are very useful as part of character creation, nor does it let you snag particular weapon enhancements.

Personally I'd play a self-buffing cleric or druid who used what little money he had to buy key pieces of equipment. If you do go a VoP character, make-sure you either have spells or someone around to use spells for you.

Leadership for a cohort might be an interesting idea, but my experiences with exactly that setup (A VoP saint monk and a cleric cohort) were that the party in-general started to interact with my cohort more than my main character as he was the healer and buffer and diviner ETC.

How much cash exactly are you being allowed to start with?
Saxis
08-10-05, 04:38 PM Make a rogue/shadowdancer and just steal everything you need! :D
Erudite
08-10-05, 05:00 PM Do people think before they make these kind of poor DM decisions, or do they just knee-jerk around the living room? This kind of decision is basicly a kick in the nads to fighter types and an encouragement to play a spell caster. :turkey:

Disposable Hero said it. Go Psion. As stated before, you can metamorph your Psicrystal friend into all sorts of neat things. You do not need components. You can supress all manifestations after a certain point.

Ranger 1/Psion (egoist) 9/Illithid Slayer 10 is nice and simple, which is something DMs appreciate, although you can jazz it up with Elocator or that PrC from Lords of Madness (Sacred Mind). Most of your feats are free, and you can hold your own. Going VoP sounds like a good idea as well.

Remember, to truly break a Psion, make liberal use of teleport to limit yourself to one or two encounters a day.

You can always do the King of Smack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=227556&page=1&pp=30) , even a VoP version, and even toned down he'll have your DM begging for a paladin with a +5 holy avenger.
jameswilliamogle
08-10-05, 05:20 PM Ranger 1/Psion (egoist) 9/Illithid Slayer 10 is nice and simple, which is something DMs appreciate, although you can jazz it up with Elocator or that PrC from Lords of Madness (Sacred Mind). Most of your feats are free, and you can hold your own. Going VoP sounds like a good idea as well.that was my first thought, heh, oh well. that's broken in his DM's environment :D
ninjarabbit
08-10-05, 06:04 PM Sounds like we finally have a campaign where the arcane archer will be the one eyed man in the city of the blind.
TrackStar
08-10-05, 11:08 PM The other thing that is a problem with my retarded DM's game, is he thinks that haveing more than one PrC is a bad thing and he has outlawed it. He thinks that PrCs are just for focusing on a little area and then you character has no reason to do that again...

Which is dumb as heck since he doesnt think theres a problem with going druid/rogue/wizard/fighter/barbarian/cleric...

yea, he sucks.

But, if it isn't a PrC and is an actual Class, then I can take it and JUST ONE PrC.

Can anyone think of some optimum builds that aren't gear oriented (I do get starting gold) for a level 13-14 character?
Lilt
08-11-05, 05:44 AM That Ranger/Psion/Illithid Slayer build looks fine for your needs, two abase classes and one prestige class. I think the idea is that you keep casting Metamorphosis over and over on yourself and your psicrystal. As metamorphosis doesn't seem to have a size cap (?) and lasts for 1hr/level on objects that means it can theoretically be used to make your psicrystal (construct = object, yes?) very powerful for extended periods. (Is that the general plan? I've never played a psion)

Basically, any build that focuses on changing shape should do nicely for you, especially if it can cast spells too. Only one PrC rules things like
Wildshape Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Nature's Warrior 1/Chameleon 7 but otherwise I'd expect any class able to stay in alternate forms for extended periods to do well. Druid 5/Nature's Warrior 5/Druid +10 is powerful and still gets 9th level spells, albeit fewer of them, although you do have DR 3/-, +3 damage on natural weapon attacks, and +5 natural armor in your wildshape form (or something similar).
20goingon1232
08-11-05, 07:08 AM At that level, you have a a few choices. Speaking from the SRD alone, you'll want something that can cast spells. I tend to be spellcasters because, while it is NICE to have items, they are not THAT dependent on them, unlike the poor Fighters. For very low cash campaigns, very few things can beat a Psion-based character. You don't spend cash casting spells. EVER. It just goes. A few will cost you XP, but hey, you can avoid them, you know? Best of all, Psions get this nifty feat called "Psionic Body". It gives +2hps per Psionic feat taken, including itself. All your Psi-Crystal feats and your Power Penetration feats, and Psi Meditation (very important to have this) and Ezpanded Knowledge are Psionic feats, IIRC. And they are all good feats to have. Basically, you gain quite a number of hps from this if you keep taking only Psionic Feats, and other than metapower feats, there is no reason not to.

Another possibility is the Psychic Warrior that concentrates on claw attacks. It is a power based ability, so you never spend gold on it, but it can be pumped up to a massive 5d6 or more at high levels. PsyWar get even more bonus feats than Psions, and more Psionic Feats like Psionic Weapon become open to you (it was open to the Psion, but not as effective). Add that to the ubiquitous Psi Body and you have a HP monster on your hands that can use powers. The drawback is the limited number of power points that the PsyWar gets, but you can augment this with a few levels in Wilder as power points STACK. This route, however, will open you up to MAD problems.

The Slayer PrC is just a plain good PrC for just about any build. It is the Psionic equivalent of the EldKn but with a heck of a lot more bonus abilities. It is all good :)
MustafaHazaraKhan
08-11-05, 08:21 AM I totally agree with the psion suggestion, but moreover I agree with this:

Leadership for a cohort might be an interesting idea
That is to say, be a Thrallherd. A decent enough build is Telepath 10 / Thrallherd 10. Hell, take Vow of Poverty and maybe even Vow of Peace too, vows don't prohibit your cohorts from owning or pwning things. Unlike with Leadership, you can also change your cohort every 24 hours if you get bored or if he gets chopped or whatever. Between your cohorts and your Astral Constructs (which you should take with Expanded Knowledge ASAP), nothing should ever get close enough to you for your lack of magical gear to matter.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TrackStar 08-10-05, 10:50 AM	I want to make a character that needs next to nothing in resources and items but can still be a devastating figure. All books are open. v3.0 (and anything "Races of" and "Complete" books, etc.) The reason is that in a game I am playing, the DM has a thing about lettin gus have "too much" money, whne infact he starves us. The same goes for magic items. He has even put a limit of +3 weapons that can be bought at stores. Keep in mind we are lvl 14-17 characters. So this is rediculous. I basically want to retire my character and make somthing like a monk with VoP. Help me kick my DM's game in the $%^&!
Vestigial_Thumb 08-10-05, 11:01 AM	Well... BTW your DM is an idiot... The sorcerer doesn't really need alot to be powerful. Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Mage Armor are two 3rd level spells that whoop some real 4$$. Give the fighter-kind-of-person a dose of GMW, Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance and he'll be your friend forever. The best buff spells are mostly 3rd level or lower, the best attack spells are 4th level or higher (coincidence?) so you can pack a real punch. Did I mention that your DM is an idiot? :)
Limit 08-10-05, 11:04 AM	I basically want to retire my character and make somthing like a monk with VoP. Well, monk or druid with VoP was the first thing that came to my mind. There are some classes that can craft their own weapons as a class ability so that your DM doesn't have to give them to you or let you buy them. Soulknife (XPH) Kensai (CW) Samurai (OA) The Ancestral Relic feat (BoED) You could also take crafting feats or be an Artificer and make anything you want yourself.
TrackStar 08-10-05, 11:07 AM	Oh yea, I forgot to mention, he has used disjunction on us twice. He is a punk. Can you guys show me some optimized builds? Possable optimizing templates would be nice as well for what ever build you all can think of! :)
DisposableHero_ 08-10-05, 11:37 AM	Worth mentioning that without components or Foci and Psicrystals provided by a feat, Psions are not very gear dependant.
Borin 08-10-05, 11:50 AM	Druid, sorcerer or psion with VoP! Make heavy use of other forms through wildshape, polymorph or metamorphosis. Pity you can't use shapechange with VoP because of the expensive focus. Although I think shapechange is potentially better than all the bonuses of VoP together. Druid is very strong overall, and the nice thing of VoP is that all the bonuses carry over to forms that otherwise would have had a problem using equipment. Probably still not as good as a druid with lots of money, but if you're pretty sure you're not getting the cash you need a VoP druid is a pretty powerful option. MUCH more powerful than monk in almost every way.
GoofsterStud 08-10-05, 12:00 PM	Book of Exalted Deeds Ancestral Relic (Good characters should be taken care of!)
El_Machinae 08-10-05, 02:27 PM	If the DM really starves them for cash, then Ancestral Relic may or may not be a good choice. Ancestral Relic really shines if the DM gives the NPCs a lot of "little" treasure, but with poor portability or resale value. Adamantine swords and +1 rings will eventually go into the meat grinder. I find the best use of an Ancestral Relic is to purchase a book. Then the book can be "prayed" to contain anything from a scroll to a tome of wisdom.
lostone 08-10-05, 02:38 PM	Pick a class that needs little in gear such as a warlock (no spell components at all) or monk (nothing but clothes needed). Take the vow of povery. Get the Mineral Warrior and/or Feral templates. Any treasure you get use to fund a soup kitchen or orphanage.
PhaedrusXY 08-10-05, 02:49 PM	As has already been said, pretty much any spellcaster (including psions, and particularly druids and clerics), or a VoP monk, are probably your best bets. When you can generate your own magical effects for free, you don't need to rely on magic items as much. Kensai is another good option, if you want to go with a non-spellcaster. For the cleric, just make use of spells like Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, etc. I normally don't bother getting magic weapons and armor with my clerics until I already several other magic items like Prayer Beads, etc. And even then, I never get more than a +1 enhancement bonus on them. Why bother when I can add that myself with a spell, and can instead get more special abilities, like Soulfire, added to the armor itself?
Lilt 08-10-05, 03:53 PM	Monks are not a no-equipment class, they want big +wisdom and +dex and +strength and +con items, they also want an amulet of mighty fists amongst other things. Now going a VoP character changes things, but VoP doesn't let you use the little magic trinkets that are very useful as part of character creation, nor does it let you snag particular weapon enhancements. Personally I'd play a self-buffing cleric or druid who used what little money he had to buy key pieces of equipment. If you do go a VoP character, make-sure you either have spells or someone around to use spells for you. Leadership for a cohort might be an interesting idea, but my experiences with exactly that setup (A VoP saint monk and a cleric cohort) were that the party in-general started to interact with my cohort more than my main character as he was the healer and buffer and diviner ETC. How much cash exactly are you being allowed to start with?
Saxis 08-10-05, 04:38 PM	Make a rogue/shadowdancer and just steal everything you need! :D
Erudite 08-10-05, 05:00 PM	Do people think before they make these kind of poor DM decisions, or do they just knee-jerk around the living room? This kind of decision is basicly a kick in the nads to fighter types and an encouragement to play a spell caster. :turkey: Disposable Hero said it. Go Psion. As stated before, you can metamorph your Psicrystal friend into all sorts of neat things. You do not need components. You can supress all manifestations after a certain point. Ranger 1/Psion (egoist) 9/Illithid Slayer 10 is nice and simple, which is something DMs appreciate, although you can jazz it up with Elocator or that PrC from Lords of Madness (Sacred Mind). Most of your feats are free, and you can hold your own. Going VoP sounds like a good idea as well. Remember, to truly break a Psion, make liberal use of teleport to limit yourself to one or two encounters a day. You can always do the King of Smack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=227556&page=1&pp=30) , even a VoP version, and even toned down he'll have your DM begging for a paladin with a +5 holy avenger.
jameswilliamogle 08-10-05, 05:20 PM	Ranger 1/Psion (egoist) 9/Illithid Slayer 10 is nice and simple, which is something DMs appreciate, although you can jazz it up with Elocator or that PrC from Lords of Madness (Sacred Mind). Most of your feats are free, and you can hold your own. Going VoP sounds like a good idea as well.that was my first thought, heh, oh well. that's broken in his DM's environment :D
ninjarabbit 08-10-05, 06:04 PM	Sounds like we finally have a campaign where the arcane archer will be the one eyed man in the city of the blind.
TrackStar 08-10-05, 11:08 PM	The other thing that is a problem with my retarded DM's game, is he thinks that haveing more than one PrC is a bad thing and he has outlawed it. He thinks that PrCs are just for focusing on a little area and then you character has no reason to do that again... Which is dumb as heck since he doesnt think theres a problem with going druid/rogue/wizard/fighter/barbarian/cleric... yea, he sucks. But, if it isn't a PrC and is an actual Class, then I can take it and JUST ONE PrC. Can anyone think of some optimum builds that aren't gear oriented (I do get starting gold) for a level 13-14 character?
Lilt 08-11-05, 05:44 AM	That Ranger/Psion/Illithid Slayer build looks fine for your needs, two abase classes and one prestige class. I think the idea is that you keep casting Metamorphosis over and over on yourself and your psicrystal. As metamorphosis doesn't seem to have a size cap (?) and lasts for 1hr/level on objects that means it can theoretically be used to make your psicrystal (construct = object, yes?) very powerful for extended periods. (Is that the general plan? I've never played a psion) Basically, any build that focuses on changing shape should do nicely for you, especially if it can cast spells too. Only one PrC rules things like Wildshape Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Nature's Warrior 1/Chameleon 7 but otherwise I'd expect any class able to stay in alternate forms for extended periods to do well. Druid 5/Nature's Warrior 5/Druid +10 is powerful and still gets 9th level spells, albeit fewer of them, although you do have DR 3/-, +3 damage on natural weapon attacks, and +5 natural armor in your wildshape form (or something similar).
20goingon1232 08-11-05, 07:08 AM	At that level, you have a a few choices. Speaking from the SRD alone, you'll want something that can cast spells. I tend to be spellcasters because, while it is NICE to have items, they are not THAT dependent on them, unlike the poor Fighters. For very low cash campaigns, very few things can beat a Psion-based character. You don't spend cash casting spells. EVER. It just goes. A few will cost you XP, but hey, you can avoid them, you know? Best of all, Psions get this nifty feat called "Psionic Body". It gives +2hps per Psionic feat taken, including itself. All your Psi-Crystal feats and your Power Penetration feats, and Psi Meditation (very important to have this) and Ezpanded Knowledge are Psionic feats, IIRC. And they are all good feats to have. Basically, you gain quite a number of hps from this if you keep taking only Psionic Feats, and other than metapower feats, there is no reason not to. Another possibility is the Psychic Warrior that concentrates on claw attacks. It is a power based ability, so you never spend gold on it, but it can be pumped up to a massive 5d6 or more at high levels. PsyWar get even more bonus feats than Psions, and more Psionic Feats like Psionic Weapon become open to you (it was open to the Psion, but not as effective). Add that to the ubiquitous Psi Body and you have a HP monster on your hands that can use powers. The drawback is the limited number of power points that the PsyWar gets, but you can augment this with a few levels in Wilder as power points STACK. This route, however, will open you up to MAD problems. The Slayer PrC is just a plain good PrC for just about any build. It is the Psionic equivalent of the EldKn but with a heck of a lot more bonus abilities. It is all good :)
MustafaHazaraKhan 08-11-05, 08:21 AM	I totally agree with the psion suggestion, but moreover I agree with this: Leadership for a cohort might be an interesting idea That is to say, be a Thrallherd. A decent enough build is Telepath 10 / Thrallherd 10. Hell, take Vow of Poverty and maybe even Vow of Peace too, vows don't prohibit your cohorts from owning or pwning things. Unlike with Leadership, you can also change your cohort every 24 hours if you get bored or if he gets chopped or whatever. Between your cohorts and your Astral Constructs (which you should take with Expanded Knowledge ASAP), nothing should ever get close enough to you for your lack of magical gear to matter.