Best lvl 1 Bard spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best lvl 1 Bard spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mrpopstar
11-19-04, 09:43 AM What spells are the most effective spells to select for the Bard? Taking into account what the Wizard and the Sorcerer are bringing to the table, what are the most appropriate choices?

I've heard Expeditious Retreat thrown around a lot. Is Summon Monster I worth the slot? Cure Light Wounds seems like a throw away since the Bard can be loaded with scrolls.

??

My character is a martial Bard/Fighter build if that helps. I'll post the build for scrutiny later. :)
m15a
11-19-04, 09:55 AM off the top of my head, i'd say tasha's hideous laughter. it's useful enough as a 2nd level wizard spell, and bards get it as a 1st level spell. i'm not sure if i'm clear on your post, though. are you counting on being the only healer in the group with just scrolls? because that'll get expensive. especially since you'll have to pay full price (at caster level 2, mind you). assuming you have a druid or cleric in the group, i think that's safe to drop. expeditious retreat is useful in combat a lot.
Aramil Liadon
11-19-04, 10:04 AM I like Balagarn's Iron Horn and Haunting Tune (Not sure if this is Lvl1). Balagarns Iron Horn can trip a LOT of enemies in the first 5 levels. Also Sleep can be very useful at lower levels

Aramil

Edit: Why are you using scrolls? If you're the party's only healing, throw together and buy a wand of CLW!
ninjarabbit
11-19-04, 10:41 AM It really depends on who else is in your party and what role(s) you're filling.
cowdragon
11-19-04, 10:53 AM In my group we hardly ever have Clerics, and even if we do we never have enough healing until 6th or 7th level, so bards always choose Cure Light Wounds. Works out pretty well. Of course, we have fighters, sorcerers and mystics mostly, so we hardly evel have to stop and sleep to regain spells. By the time the sorcs can cast 3rd level spells they always get Vampiric Touch...so they don't need the higher level healing, and niether does the Mystic or fighter. So, Cure Light is a great investment in our group. Another excellent choice is Tashas Hideous Laughter. Takes the enemies right out. Usually though, bards don't make really great offensive casters. The reason? All of their spells are a couple levels lower for them, hence the save DC's vs their spells is even lower. So, generally defensive spells rock the most. Heroism is good, and Summon Monster I rocks. Especially if you give your bard Augment Summoning. They cast that, then sing, their critters are powerful at levels 1-4 about.

The Cowdragon :mage:
ninjarabbit
11-19-04, 12:25 PM Another point is that bards can swap their spells out, so what's useful at low levels (like CLW or sleep) can be taken without fear of being stuck with them when those spell have out lived their usefulness.
SpiritGlyph
11-19-04, 12:49 PM In terms of sheer usefulness, it's hard to beat the awesome versatility of a simple Silent Image. You can distract and hide from the opponents in so many ways, you can direct them into traps and over cliffs, ect. Remember, saving against a Silent Image takes a standard action, and the time that BBEG spends interacting with your illusionary red dragon is time he spends not attacking the party. At high level, only SM I comes close to keeping it's usefulness.

Silent Image is probably best to pick up later, though, giving how much of it's power is drained by a too short duration. I'd recommend picking up Sleep or CLW and then switching them out later.
mrpopstar
11-21-04, 01:43 AM Thanks for all the replies!

Point taken on the CLW. I'll definitely choose this and forget the scroll idea.

I'm actually playing this character in Living Greyhawk, so my party is constantly changing. I'm really just trying to be the "quintessential bard" if you will, ready for anything and helpful in all situations.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter seems like a solid choice, I may take that.

How effective is Summon Monster I initially with only one round of usage at Bard lvl 2? Aside from setting off traps, I imagine the single attack the summoned creature would get in is rather a waste. Am I wrong?

Grease has always seemed like a useful spell also, any thoughts?

Where does it state that Bards can switch out their spells?? I -completely- missed that.

Call me naive but I honestly fail to see the beauty in expeditious retreat. Throw a good example of it's usefulness my way(a vivid scenario)... I have the feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and I'm planning on Rapid Shot next level, show me how to maximize these with expeditious retreat. Please. :)
cowdragon
11-21-04, 01:53 AM expeditious retreat for an archer? That's super easy to maximize.

round 1: cast spell, move way far away from intended victim of arrows. Said victim tries to close with you...fails miserably.
round 2: fire an arrow from about 30' away. Get bonus damage from point blank shot. Run farther away. Victim continues to attempt to close to melee. Stops to pull out arrow. Bleeds a bit.
round 3: fire arrow again. Target attempts to run away from this lose/lose situation. fails. pulls out another arrow.
round 4: move closer, fire another arrow. Target/victim drops. This is from massive loss of body fluids. Not just blood either. Once he realized that he was going to die, he started crying...and wet himself. :weep:

See? ;)

The Cowdragon :mage:
Snicker-Snack
11-21-04, 01:58 AM Point taken on the CLW. I'll definitely choose this and forget the scroll idea.

I would avoid CLW. You can only trade it at 8th level, and that's a Looong way to go. Besides, at that point, you might already be in a PrC, what might get you stuck with a spell that's no longer useful.

If you really want to heal, Just get some wands of CLW. They are the cheapest form of Healing around (in healed HP/GP), and are probably your best bet.

I second SpiritGlyph's Advice. Silent Image is probably the best Lvl 1 spell. It can do so many things... And if you are smart, the opponents won't even get a chance to save (remember that illusions doesn't allow a chance to save unless that they study it carefully or interact with it). There is just a small correction to Spirit's comment:

Silent Image is probably best to pick up later, though, giving how much of it's power is drained by a too short duration.

The duration of Silent image is Concentration, that's one of the beauties of the spell: CL is of little importance, as the area is already big enough even at CL1.
Cacevius
11-21-04, 04:00 AM Having a spontaneous caster with CLW can be a life-saver at every level: wands and scrolls can get lost, clerics can die, ...
I would take it at 2nd level and *never* exchange it.

The second spell to take at 2nd level should be either useful for offense, or to control social situations: Sleep or Charm Person come to mind - Hideous Laughter can't well compete with them. Either one is useful until 8th level, when you will have to exchange it. Here is the relevant SRD3.5 quote:
//Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.//

Other good 1st level spells to consider taking are Grease (because it challenges the Reflex save), Undetectable Alignment (allowing to set up more of those social situations an effective bard exploits) and for later, when 1st level spell slots are mostly used for utilities, also Animate Rope or Feather Fall (again a potential life-saver).

You best cast the very useful Silent Image - a long range utility spell without any other caster level dependent features - from cheap 1st level scrolls: try to get some from a sympathetic wizard.

Mrpopstar: there was a - despite its weird title - rather constructive thread about survival as a low level bard at the classes forum lately, namely http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=291806. I guess that might help you too.

Have fun,

Cacevius

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mrpopstar 11-19-04, 09:43 AM	What spells are the most effective spells to select for the Bard? Taking into account what the Wizard and the Sorcerer are bringing to the table, what are the most appropriate choices? I've heard Expeditious Retreat thrown around a lot. Is Summon Monster I worth the slot? Cure Light Wounds seems like a throw away since the Bard can be loaded with scrolls. ?? My character is a martial Bard/Fighter build if that helps. I'll post the build for scrutiny later. :)
m15a 11-19-04, 09:55 AM	off the top of my head, i'd say tasha's hideous laughter. it's useful enough as a 2nd level wizard spell, and bards get it as a 1st level spell. i'm not sure if i'm clear on your post, though. are you counting on being the only healer in the group with just scrolls? because that'll get expensive. especially since you'll have to pay full price (at caster level 2, mind you). assuming you have a druid or cleric in the group, i think that's safe to drop. expeditious retreat is useful in combat a lot.
Aramil Liadon 11-19-04, 10:04 AM	I like Balagarn's Iron Horn and Haunting Tune (Not sure if this is Lvl1). Balagarns Iron Horn can trip a LOT of enemies in the first 5 levels. Also Sleep can be very useful at lower levels Aramil Edit: Why are you using scrolls? If you're the party's only healing, throw together and buy a wand of CLW!
ninjarabbit 11-19-04, 10:41 AM	It really depends on who else is in your party and what role(s) you're filling.
cowdragon 11-19-04, 10:53 AM	In my group we hardly ever have Clerics, and even if we do we never have enough healing until 6th or 7th level, so bards always choose Cure Light Wounds. Works out pretty well. Of course, we have fighters, sorcerers and mystics mostly, so we hardly evel have to stop and sleep to regain spells. By the time the sorcs can cast 3rd level spells they always get Vampiric Touch...so they don't need the higher level healing, and niether does the Mystic or fighter. So, Cure Light is a great investment in our group. Another excellent choice is Tashas Hideous Laughter. Takes the enemies right out. Usually though, bards don't make really great offensive casters. The reason? All of their spells are a couple levels lower for them, hence the save DC's vs their spells is even lower. So, generally defensive spells rock the most. Heroism is good, and Summon Monster I rocks. Especially if you give your bard Augment Summoning. They cast that, then sing, their critters are powerful at levels 1-4 about. The Cowdragon :mage:
ninjarabbit 11-19-04, 12:25 PM	Another point is that bards can swap their spells out, so what's useful at low levels (like CLW or sleep) can be taken without fear of being stuck with them when those spell have out lived their usefulness.
SpiritGlyph 11-19-04, 12:49 PM	In terms of sheer usefulness, it's hard to beat the awesome versatility of a simple Silent Image. You can distract and hide from the opponents in so many ways, you can direct them into traps and over cliffs, ect. Remember, saving against a Silent Image takes a standard action, and the time that BBEG spends interacting with your illusionary red dragon is time he spends not attacking the party. At high level, only SM I comes close to keeping it's usefulness. Silent Image is probably best to pick up later, though, giving how much of it's power is drained by a too short duration. I'd recommend picking up Sleep or CLW and then switching them out later.
mrpopstar 11-21-04, 01:43 AM	Thanks for all the replies! Point taken on the CLW. I'll definitely choose this and forget the scroll idea. I'm actually playing this character in Living Greyhawk, so my party is constantly changing. I'm really just trying to be the "quintessential bard" if you will, ready for anything and helpful in all situations. Tasha's Hideous Laughter seems like a solid choice, I may take that. How effective is Summon Monster I initially with only one round of usage at Bard lvl 2? Aside from setting off traps, I imagine the single attack the summoned creature would get in is rather a waste. Am I wrong? Grease has always seemed like a useful spell also, any thoughts? Where does it state that Bards can switch out their spells?? I -completely- missed that. Call me naive but I honestly fail to see the beauty in expeditious retreat. Throw a good example of it's usefulness my way(a vivid scenario)... I have the feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and I'm planning on Rapid Shot next level, show me how to maximize these with expeditious retreat. Please. :)
cowdragon 11-21-04, 01:53 AM	expeditious retreat for an archer? That's super easy to maximize. round 1: cast spell, move way far away from intended victim of arrows. Said victim tries to close with you...fails miserably. round 2: fire an arrow from about 30' away. Get bonus damage from point blank shot. Run farther away. Victim continues to attempt to close to melee. Stops to pull out arrow. Bleeds a bit. round 3: fire arrow again. Target attempts to run away from this lose/lose situation. fails. pulls out another arrow. round 4: move closer, fire another arrow. Target/victim drops. This is from massive loss of body fluids. Not just blood either. Once he realized that he was going to die, he started crying...and wet himself. :weep: See? ;) The Cowdragon :mage:
Snicker-Snack 11-21-04, 01:58 AM	Point taken on the CLW. I'll definitely choose this and forget the scroll idea. I would avoid CLW. You can only trade it at 8th level, and that's a Looong way to go. Besides, at that point, you might already be in a PrC, what might get you stuck with a spell that's no longer useful. If you really want to heal, Just get some wands of CLW. They are the cheapest form of Healing around (in healed HP/GP), and are probably your best bet. I second SpiritGlyph's Advice. Silent Image is probably the best Lvl 1 spell. It can do so many things... And if you are smart, the opponents won't even get a chance to save (remember that illusions doesn't allow a chance to save unless that they study it carefully or interact with it). There is just a small correction to Spirit's comment: Silent Image is probably best to pick up later, though, giving how much of it's power is drained by a too short duration. The duration of Silent image is Concentration, that's one of the beauties of the spell: CL is of little importance, as the area is already big enough even at CL1.
Cacevius 11-21-04, 04:00 AM	Having a spontaneous caster with CLW can be a life-saver at every level: wands and scrolls can get lost, clerics can die, ... I would take it at 2nd level and never exchange it. The second spell to take at 2nd level should be either useful for offense, or to control social situations: Sleep or Charm Person come to mind - Hideous Laughter can't well compete with them. Either one is useful until 8th level, when you will have to exchange it. Here is the relevant SRD3.5 quote: //Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.// Other good 1st level spells to consider taking are Grease (because it challenges the Reflex save), Undetectable Alignment (allowing to set up more of those social situations an effective bard exploits) and for later, when 1st level spell slots are mostly used for utilities, also Animate Rope or Feather Fall (again a potential life-saver). You best cast the very useful Silent Image - a long range utility spell without any other caster level dependent features - from cheap 1st level scrolls: try to get some from a sympathetic wizard. Mrpopstar: there was a - despite its weird title - rather constructive thread about survival as a low level bard at the classes forum lately, namely http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=291806. I guess that might help you too. Have fun, Cacevius