best metamagic combos [Archive] - Wizards Community

best metamagic combos [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Snarf
01-25-05, 02:00 AM Situation: You are playing a character well into epic, who will take the epic Improved Metamagic feat, probably multiple times. There is a prerequisite of four metamagic feats, which would be most optimal to take? My choices are limited to pure 3.5 WotC supplements only (e.g. no Sonic Substitution).

I am using the interpretation of Improved Metamagic that states it reduces the individual cost of each metamagic feat by 1, rather than the total cost of the spell (in cases where multiple metamagic feats are applied to the same spell). Obviously this adds weight to expensive feats like Quicken, Twin, Admixture and Chain which provide big bang at reduced rates. The key would seem to be selecting feats which synergize effectively, if possible.

My ulterior motive here is to plan the best metamagic combos for my epic druid, who of course will be burning his earlier epic feats on wild shape stuff. My emphasis will likely be on combat magic. However, my other motive is to see what people think the baddest combos are for general application.
Expanded Psion
01-25-05, 09:28 AM Hmmm Empower+Maximize+Enhance is a no-brainer for any damage spell (multiple empower/enhance would be added for extra touch).With 3 Improved Metamagic you would be able to make a 24d6 Thunderswarm into a Quickened Maximized 2xEmpowered Thunderwarm for a 13th lvl slot.Or even better a Quickened Maximized 3xEmpowered Flame Strike as a 9th lvl slot.There is no reason to go beyond 3 Improved Metamagic ,Intensify isn't worth it because it doesn't allow any other modifications in the damage...and it costs exactly like 2xEmpowered +maximized...not worth it at all.That's if u use the 3.0 version of Improved Metamagic (extremelly powerfull).Just keep adding ISC and Multispell after that and you'll be OK.
So we have up to now :Quicken,Maximize,Empower and Enhance.Now i don't know how many spell slots Twin spell,Energy Admixture and Chain spell add so i can't really help you with those.But given levels you should be able to use all Metamagic Feats for 1 slot each...But i highly recomend taking the 4 Metamagic i pointed out.Really there's is no combo for high level Metamagic.Just add 1 Quicken and Maximize and then mix and match for the best result.Best spell for Druid to do that? I guess that would be Flame Strike (lowest spell level vs highest damage cap possible).

But don't neglect the other prospect of Druidic spells: self-enhancement.
Persistent Spell is a must for any buffs (thats from Tome and Blood right?).If you allready have Improved Metamagic add Persistent power on your feats.Its just too good to let it pass by.

BTW the only Wild Epic feats i would take would be : Gargantuan,Collosal,Dragon,Magical Beast and Imrpoved Elemental wild shape.Skip Vermin cause you don't get the supernatural abilities from this one (no Thorciasid for you...sorry).Improved Elemental is a must though.Take it asap cause u will be able to use any spell-like abilities of elementals you turn into (from Elemental wildshape) and these elementals will now include creatures with the elemental template.Ouchie :D All those feats can be taken until 30 lvl (because i think that hands down the first Epic Feat any spellcaster should pick is Epic Spellcasting)...after that all your feats should focus on spellcasting.Consider adding Divine disciple and Contemplative (1 lvl each) for the Domains (Druids with time stop sound sweet) :P :P :P

Bah this turned to a general-advice-in-epic-levels post:D :D :D
amalcon
01-25-05, 09:48 AM First of all, we have Quicken Spell + anything.

My personal favorite combination, though it doesn't sit very well with Improved Metamagic, is Silent Spell + Still Spell + take eschew materials. This is as much for flavor as for power (You don't cast spells, magical stuff just happens around you), but it also makes it incredibly hard to inhibit your spellcasting. Silence is a second-level spell which, used properly, can shut down even the best spellcasters (though using it properly usually involves casting it on a grappler or somesuch). It will almost always stop a single spell if you just interrupt spellcasting with a casting of silence at the ground at your opponent's feet. Silent Spell fixes this.

Of course, if you prefer combat power, you can't beat quicken+repeat, for the potential to cast the equivalent of five spells per round.
Snarf
01-25-05, 02:03 PM With 3 Improved Metamagic you would be able to make a 24d6 Thunderswarm into a Quickened Maximized 2xEmpowered Thunderwarm for a 13th lvl slot.Or even better a Quickened Maximized 3xEmpowered Flame Strike as a 9th lvl slot.
Except, in 3.5, you aren't allowed to apply the same metamagic feat more than once to the same casting of a spell...unless I'm missing something that could grant that capability?

Persistent is extraordinarily sweet, but I can't afford to take Extend as a prerequisite, unless I give up a lot. Actually I find that any 10 min/level spell is practically Persistent around 24th level if you memorize 3 of them (12 hours is the adventuring day for our group)...and a Rod of Extend is a relatively cheap way to make 2 castings last 16 hours. Nice for things like Barkskin and Embrace the Wild, with a lesser rod. I gotta agree that Persistent totally rocks for those 1 min or round/level spells though :D

My druid is pretty much married to Quicken. Actually, I think that any spellcaster who doesn't have Quicken at high level is weak compared to those who do...which is troublesome for spontaneous casters. I kinda like Rapid Spell (to Quicken 1 round casting times) and Piercing Cold (with Energy Affinity Cold, and maybe Energy Admixture Cold)...but it seems to me that a character with Improved Metamagic would be better served investing in rods to do the +1 spell level effects, and actually taking the more expensive feats. Of course I can't generally use a rod in wild shape, so there's a trade-off involved.

I agree that 3 IM is the way to go. Probably like a lot of people, I was planning on using Automatic Quicken Spell x3, then when it got mega-nerfed in CA, the only remaining option seems to be IM x3. Add to that an ISC or two, and a Multispell or two, and the result is quite nice.

I also thought that Epic Spellcasting would be a no-brainer at 21. Problem is, when I took a realistic look at the situation, I have neither the mega-gold nor the mega-XP to invest in researching epic spells at 21. Hopefully it will be a more economically realistic goal later on though.
Expanded Psion
01-25-05, 02:20 PM Aye (or aieeeee:D) i haven't noticed that part:D (one appliance of each Metamagic spell)...sure haven't played enough Epic 3.5...:D :D :D
As for Epic Spellcasting...well you are right ofc...except one thing:with leadership and a host of spellcasting followers (adepts) you can often create some Rituals that will have extremelly low DCs and still be usefull i.e. An Epic spell to grant a +5 inherent bonus costs next to nothing with enough spellcasters and some time.Try checking out some of the Epic spells over the boards.
Psifon
01-25-05, 03:42 PM The best feat chain ever for an epic wizard is:

Still spell
Silent spell
Quicken spell
Improved Spell Capacity x5
Innate Spell: Mordenkainen's Lucubration

This is all to get that last feat of course, although the chain itself has a lot of goodness in it. The shick of course is that now you can cast ALL your 1-5th level spells an infinate number of times per day. Not only that, but you can cast spells before bedtime, and the next day learn a bunch of new spells and now you have 2 days worth of spells avialable to you. Do it again the next night, and the next, and pretty soon you can cast ALL the spells you know, of 5th level or below with just a one round casting delay.

This build was nerfed with the Player's Guide to Faerun, but they changed the feat back with the Complete Arcane volume. I am still waiting for the eratta to come out...

I call it the fire hose of magic.
Expanded Psion
01-25-05, 05:41 PM Nice but we're talking about Druids here.Very powerfull though:D
Psifon
01-25-05, 06:31 PM Nice but we're talking about Druids here.Very powerfull though:D

I know, but I figured that the title of the thread was generic enough...
Snarf
01-25-05, 07:02 PM It is a generic thread, by all means, keep 'em coming...although you get brownie points for using a druid in your example. (Just tell your DM you got a brownie point from Snarf, I'm sure he'll let you cash it in for +10 to one save or something :D)
catharz
01-26-05, 01:12 AM Chain and Quicken is my holy grail.
IMO Persistant is well worth it for buffers with 1rd/lvl buffs (and the fixed-duration buffs). Think Nature's avatar, etc.

Remember that Eschew materials isn't a metamagic feat anymore. And remember the epic Ignore material components (it is amazing).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Snarf 01-25-05, 02:00 AM	Situation: You are playing a character well into epic, who will take the epic Improved Metamagic feat, probably multiple times. There is a prerequisite of four metamagic feats, which would be most optimal to take? My choices are limited to pure 3.5 WotC supplements only (e.g. no Sonic Substitution). I am using the interpretation of Improved Metamagic that states it reduces the individual cost of each metamagic feat by 1, rather than the total cost of the spell (in cases where multiple metamagic feats are applied to the same spell). Obviously this adds weight to expensive feats like Quicken, Twin, Admixture and Chain which provide big bang at reduced rates. The key would seem to be selecting feats which synergize effectively, if possible. My ulterior motive here is to plan the best metamagic combos for my epic druid, who of course will be burning his earlier epic feats on wild shape stuff. My emphasis will likely be on combat magic. However, my other motive is to see what people think the baddest combos are for general application.
Expanded Psion 01-25-05, 09:28 AM	Hmmm Empower+Maximize+Enhance is a no-brainer for any damage spell (multiple empower/enhance would be added for extra touch).With 3 Improved Metamagic you would be able to make a 24d6 Thunderswarm into a Quickened Maximized 2xEmpowered Thunderwarm for a 13th lvl slot.Or even better a Quickened Maximized 3xEmpowered Flame Strike as a 9th lvl slot.There is no reason to go beyond 3 Improved Metamagic ,Intensify isn't worth it because it doesn't allow any other modifications in the damage...and it costs exactly like 2xEmpowered +maximized...not worth it at all.That's if u use the 3.0 version of Improved Metamagic (extremelly powerfull).Just keep adding ISC and Multispell after that and you'll be OK. So we have up to now :Quicken,Maximize,Empower and Enhance.Now i don't know how many spell slots Twin spell,Energy Admixture and Chain spell add so i can't really help you with those.But given levels you should be able to use all Metamagic Feats for 1 slot each...But i highly recomend taking the 4 Metamagic i pointed out.Really there's is no combo for high level Metamagic.Just add 1 Quicken and Maximize and then mix and match for the best result.Best spell for Druid to do that? I guess that would be Flame Strike (lowest spell level vs highest damage cap possible). But don't neglect the other prospect of Druidic spells: self-enhancement. Persistent Spell is a must for any buffs (thats from Tome and Blood right?).If you allready have Improved Metamagic add Persistent power on your feats.Its just too good to let it pass by. BTW the only Wild Epic feats i would take would be : Gargantuan,Collosal,Dragon,Magical Beast and Imrpoved Elemental wild shape.Skip Vermin cause you don't get the supernatural abilities from this one (no Thorciasid for you...sorry).Improved Elemental is a must though.Take it asap cause u will be able to use any spell-like abilities of elementals you turn into (from Elemental wildshape) and these elementals will now include creatures with the elemental template.Ouchie :D All those feats can be taken until 30 lvl (because i think that hands down the first Epic Feat any spellcaster should pick is Epic Spellcasting)...after that all your feats should focus on spellcasting.Consider adding Divine disciple and Contemplative (1 lvl each) for the Domains (Druids with time stop sound sweet) :P :P :P Bah this turned to a general-advice-in-epic-levels post:D :D :D
amalcon 01-25-05, 09:48 AM	First of all, we have Quicken Spell + anything. My personal favorite combination, though it doesn't sit very well with Improved Metamagic, is Silent Spell + Still Spell + take eschew materials. This is as much for flavor as for power (You don't cast spells, magical stuff just happens around you), but it also makes it incredibly hard to inhibit your spellcasting. Silence is a second-level spell which, used properly, can shut down even the best spellcasters (though using it properly usually involves casting it on a grappler or somesuch). It will almost always stop a single spell if you just interrupt spellcasting with a casting of silence at the ground at your opponent's feet. Silent Spell fixes this. Of course, if you prefer combat power, you can't beat quicken+repeat, for the potential to cast the equivalent of five spells per round.
Snarf 01-25-05, 02:03 PM	With 3 Improved Metamagic you would be able to make a 24d6 Thunderswarm into a Quickened Maximized 2xEmpowered Thunderwarm for a 13th lvl slot.Or even better a Quickened Maximized 3xEmpowered Flame Strike as a 9th lvl slot. Except, in 3.5, you aren't allowed to apply the same metamagic feat more than once to the same casting of a spell...unless I'm missing something that could grant that capability? Persistent is extraordinarily sweet, but I can't afford to take Extend as a prerequisite, unless I give up a lot. Actually I find that any 10 min/level spell is practically Persistent around 24th level if you memorize 3 of them (12 hours is the adventuring day for our group)...and a Rod of Extend is a relatively cheap way to make 2 castings last 16 hours. Nice for things like Barkskin and Embrace the Wild, with a lesser rod. I gotta agree that Persistent totally rocks for those 1 min or round/level spells though :D My druid is pretty much married to Quicken. Actually, I think that any spellcaster who doesn't have Quicken at high level is weak compared to those who do...which is troublesome for spontaneous casters. I kinda like Rapid Spell (to Quicken 1 round casting times) and Piercing Cold (with Energy Affinity Cold, and maybe Energy Admixture Cold)...but it seems to me that a character with Improved Metamagic would be better served investing in rods to do the +1 spell level effects, and actually taking the more expensive feats. Of course I can't generally use a rod in wild shape, so there's a trade-off involved. I agree that 3 IM is the way to go. Probably like a lot of people, I was planning on using Automatic Quicken Spell x3, then when it got mega-nerfed in CA, the only remaining option seems to be IM x3. Add to that an ISC or two, and a Multispell or two, and the result is quite nice. I also thought that Epic Spellcasting would be a no-brainer at 21. Problem is, when I took a realistic look at the situation, I have neither the mega-gold nor the mega-XP to invest in researching epic spells at 21. Hopefully it will be a more economically realistic goal later on though.
Expanded Psion 01-25-05, 02:20 PM	Aye (or aieeeee:D) i haven't noticed that part:D (one appliance of each Metamagic spell)...sure haven't played enough Epic 3.5...:D :D :D As for Epic Spellcasting...well you are right ofc...except one thing:with leadership and a host of spellcasting followers (adepts) you can often create some Rituals that will have extremelly low DCs and still be usefull i.e. An Epic spell to grant a +5 inherent bonus costs next to nothing with enough spellcasters and some time.Try checking out some of the Epic spells over the boards.
Psifon 01-25-05, 03:42 PM	The best feat chain ever for an epic wizard is: Still spell Silent spell Quicken spell Improved Spell Capacity x5 Innate Spell: Mordenkainen's Lucubration This is all to get that last feat of course, although the chain itself has a lot of goodness in it. The shick of course is that now you can cast ALL your 1-5th level spells an infinate number of times per day. Not only that, but you can cast spells before bedtime, and the next day learn a bunch of new spells and now you have 2 days worth of spells avialable to you. Do it again the next night, and the next, and pretty soon you can cast ALL the spells you know, of 5th level or below with just a one round casting delay. This build was nerfed with the Player's Guide to Faerun, but they changed the feat back with the Complete Arcane volume. I am still waiting for the eratta to come out... I call it the fire hose of magic.
Expanded Psion 01-25-05, 05:41 PM	Nice but we're talking about Druids here.Very powerfull though:D
Psifon 01-25-05, 06:31 PM	Nice but we're talking about Druids here.Very powerfull though:D I know, but I figured that the title of the thread was generic enough...
Snarf 01-25-05, 07:02 PM	It is a generic thread, by all means, keep 'em coming...although you get brownie points for using a druid in your example. (Just tell your DM you got a brownie point from Snarf, I'm sure he'll let you cash it in for +10 to one save or something :D)
catharz 01-26-05, 01:12 AM	Chain and Quicken is my holy grail. IMO Persistant is well worth it for buffers with 1rd/lvl buffs (and the fixed-duration buffs). Think Nature's avatar, etc. Remember that Eschew materials isn't a metamagic feat anymore. And remember the epic Ignore material components (it is amazing).