Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Teh Lurv 12-30-03, 11:07 PM	I am currently in a Savage Species type campaign (PCs are monsters or are player races with a monster template.) Before the group took a two month long break from the campaign, me and the cleric both bit the dust in a battle. I've decided to come back as a cleric to replace the one lost. My question is: What monster race or PC race/template combo is best for minmaxing purposes? Please keep in mind I would like to keep the LA at +2 or less. In addition, when I return to the game my character will be ECL 6.
Kenkai 12-30-03, 11:22 PM	lol too bad no sane DM would allow dragon magazines half-ogre template (LA +1)
catharz 12-30-03, 11:55 PM	White dragonspawn [DLCS] is pretty nice, especially if you fancy playing a Dragon disciple. Feral is generally looked upon as being quite nice as well, although the hit to Int can be a bit extreme. As Kenkai already said, the Dragon magazine's Half-ogre template is pretty good for a bruiser, although honestly it sucks compared to the Half-minotaur. The BoED puts the Half-celestial template at LA+2 for creatures with 2 or fewer racial HD, making it a very good choice. For pure damage potential, just take Human, Half-orc, or Wood elf and add Half-minotaur as well as any class levels and other templates you desire. However, there is no race/template combo that is "best" by Min/Max. It all depends on what you want to do. The Trumpet archon and Ghaele are killers at ECL 6. At that point in their progressions, both cast spells at least as well as 6th level clerics (the TAs cast as 7th level IIRC :rolleyes: ).
Previn 12-31-03, 12:08 AM	catharz, where do you see the Half-Celestial as a +2 LA? I can't find that in the BoED.
Kenkai 12-31-03, 12:28 AM	do feral creatures only get the abilities based on hit die at first level or whenever their HD gets that high? for example, would a level 8 feral human fighter (ECL 9) get improved grab, rake, and pounce?
Kenkai 12-31-03, 12:30 AM	Originally posted by Previn catharz, where do you see the Half-Celestial as a +2 LA? I can't find that in the BoED. page 27
Lord Likk 12-31-03, 03:00 AM	kenkai and catharz, can you spill some more beans on this 1/2 ogre template? how is it different then the 1/2 ogre in savage species? teh lurv, i can personally recommend the insectile template, combined with a big weapon. you see, you may not be able to attack with those other hands, but you can hold a weapon with them. under the rules printed in savage species, i believe six extra arms, if that's how many insectile adds, would add 3 x str mod to damage. if you're after a less martial cleric type, catharz' suggestion about the celestials may be right up your alley. i suggest looking over a few monster manuals and whatnot, or at least the boed, in search of a celestial that gets clr spellcasting (remember, you can add lvls of clr afterward to augment that), and has few abilities you don't want/like, and has an acceptable ecl for you. if you don't want to make a progression for something ecl 6+, post the name of it and i'll do it.
Ambrosious 12-31-03, 03:17 AM	Isn't there some fey chic--slyph or something--that casts as double her hit die? There was a build on the CO board a while back from Chris. If I recall she made a great divine caster. Sorry I can't be more definite, away from my books right now. :(
Kenkai 12-31-03, 03:28 AM	Originally posted by Lord Likk kenkai and catharz, can you spill some more beans on this 1/2 ogre template? how is it different then the 1/2 ogre in savage species? teh lurv, i can personally recommend the insectile template, combined with a big weapon. you see, you may not be able to attack with those other hands, but you can hold a weapon with them. under the rules printed in savage species, i believe six extra arms, if that's how many insectile adds, would add 3 x str mod to damage. if you're after a less martial cleric type, catharz' suggestion about the celestials may be right up your alley. i suggest looking over a few monster manuals and whatnot, or at least the boed, in search of a celestial that gets clr spellcasting (remember, you can add lvls of clr afterward to augment that), and has few abilities you don't want/like, and has an acceptable ecl for you. if you don't want to make a progression for something ecl 6+, post the name of it and i'll do it. well for one thing, unlike savage species the half-ogre in dragon is a template. it increases your size from small to medium or medium to large. that wouldn't be a big deal but you get all the bonuses of gaining a size that are in the monster manual (yes it says this). it already gets +4 strength in addition to that, so the half-ogre template gets +12 strength. i think that alone is enough to make no sane DM use it :rolleyes: i'd say more but i don't feel like looking it up.
Lord Likk 12-31-03, 03:44 AM	that's insane...
Hanniball 12-31-03, 10:58 AM	MUCH better than the race in SS... IMO, Saint from BoED is flippin' insane as well. at only a +2 LA you get a load of awesome abilities. Feral is great for melee builds. make sure you put at least a 14 in Int though (unless you want to be SUPER-dumb). Sylph is out of MMII. I don't remember the ECL on it but it casts spells as a sorcerer in addition to many other abilities... either way...just my 0.02 cp
Balthanon 12-31-03, 03:53 PM	Originally posted by Hanniball Sylph is out of MMII. I don't remember the ECL on it but it casts spells as a sorcerer in addition to many other abilities... ECL 8 (3 HD + 5 LA) that casts spells as a sorcerer of her racial hit dice +4. You can advance racial hit dice to 9 total and also get greater invisibility at will, 1/day Summon Monster VI (elementals) and some nice ability mods, including Cha +6. One monster race I've always wanted to play, though it doesn't make the best pure caster is the Jackal Lord at ECL 12. It casts spells as an 8th level cleric (+8 Wisdom bonus), has three natural attacks, some nice ability mods, decent spell-like and supernatural abilities, and some damage reduction to make up for the lost hit dice. It's not the most powerful monster race out there, but it could be fun to play. At ECL 6 you're probably not going to beat the Trumpet Archon and Ghaele Eladrin for casting ability and power, but will be cutting you choices for a full 20 levels. If you just need a Monster, but want to minimize ECL, the Jermlaine out of the Monster Manual II isn't bad as a pure spellcaster (+6 Wisdom, +6 Dex), but they do better as druids due to their tiny size and large strength and charisma penalties.