Best mix with Jade Phoenix Mage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best mix with Jade Phoenix Mage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Salla
11-24-06, 01:03 AM I want to play a JPM. I REALLY want to play a JPM. They look useful AND they're cool. :)

At the moment, I'm puzzling over which type of arcanist to blend with Warblade (my preferred ToB class) to make the six levels before JPM.

Wizard: I don't want to mess with spellbooks, though Arcane Wrath is a great way to deal with dead weight spells. INT synergy between Warblade and Wizard reduces MAD.

Sorcerer: No spellbook, gives more spell slots to burn for Arcane Wrath. Adds CHA to the abilities required.

Battle Sorcerer: More HP, better BAB, cast in light armor. Fewer slots, though.

Wu Jen: Same problems as the wizard, but adds the potential to add Master of Fire benefits to the fire-based JPM abilities.

Warmage: Cast in armor, no spell preparation, plenty of fire spells to boost ... very limited in spell versatility, though. Limited to blasting or beating things up. CHA adds to MAD again.

Any thoughts on this one, Optimization Gurus?
PhoenixInferno
11-24-06, 01:14 AM There is also the Duskblade and the Beguiler.
Rashomon
11-24-06, 01:53 AM I personally like Wizard 5 Warblade 1 JPM 10 Abjurant Champion 4. Wizard lets you use the sancitified spells (which are awesome) and Abjurant Champion is just great.
ressurrector
11-24-06, 02:41 AM I've got a few JPM builds I've worked out.
Personally I like the following most, though it's not as melee oriented:
Warmage4/Swordsage2/JPM10/ (either Swordsage+4, Warmage+4 or +2/+2)
Then grab some reserve feats to take advantage of the Warmage's high spells known and spontaneous casting.

You won't get 9th level spells, you can get 9th level maneuvers, and you'll have plenty of melee punch and ranged punch at the same time.
The addition of reserve feats let's you keep up low-level blasting all day long.

If you want 9th level spells, the best way to go is either Wiz6/Warblade1/JPM10/Wiz+3 (or arcane PrC, possibly Abjurant Champion to raise BaB) or use WuJen6/Warblade1/JPM10/WuJen+3 (or PrC)
If you want 9th level spells while using JPM you're either going to need to burn feats on martial maneuvers/stances, take non-delayed casting class as primary, or cheese yourself using Sublime Chord like in the following:
Bard7/Warblade2/JPM1/Sublime Chord1/JPM+9 (arrange bard/warblade levels to taste) (bab +17 CL16 9th level spells IL 16)
Cheating into Sublime Chord with Bard and Wiz leaves you with exp penalties unfortunately, though if you can get around that it can let you fit another level of Warblade in there.

THinking of a way to fit Abjurant Champ in there.... will edit shortly
Bard4/Warblade2/JPM4/SublimeChord1/JPM+6/Abjurant Champion3 bab 18, CL calculation makes my head hurt, 9th level spells, IL16 (though without feats you're stuck with 7th level maneuvers due to finishing JPM early)

Just a Thought, anyone tried breaking bab=CL with Sublime Chord and Abjurant Champion yet?
X-Codes
11-24-06, 04:11 AM In here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683941) you'll find this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10178720&postcount=424).

From what I've seen, it's the only ToB Gish build that drops it's MAD to 3 stats while still attaining +16 BAB and 9th level spells, instead of the 4-5 usually required by others, assuming they don't go for sub-par spellcasting.

Is this a shameless plug? Pretty much, yeah. I'm still proud of my creation, though.
Salla
11-24-06, 02:27 PM In here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683941) you'll find this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10178720&postcount=424).

From what I've seen, it's the only ToB Gish build that drops it's MAD to 3 stats while still attaining +16 BAB and 9th level spells, instead of the 4-5 usually required by others, assuming they don't go for sub-par spellcasting.

Is this a shameless plug? Pretty much, yeah. I'm still proud of my creation, though.

As well you should be. That's pretty sweet. I do wonder how it would play out with Warblade in place of Swordsage, though. Stylistic differences, I just like the 'Blade better on a personal level. :)

PhoenixInferno: I flat-out forgot about the Beguiler, and I mostly dismissed the Duskblade due to its slow spell acquisition and 5th level spell cap for Arcane Wrath ... though I think that might still be better than the buffless Warmage. :)
Twili
11-24-06, 02:44 PM Beguiler 7 / Swordsage 1 /JMT 10/ Swordsage +3
should work...
Salla
11-24-06, 02:55 PM Beguiler 7 / Swordsage 1 /JMT 10/ Swordsage +3
should work...

Just out of curiosity (to Twili and X-Codes both), why Swordsage (with the 3/4 BAB and slow maneuver recovery)?
ressurrector
11-24-06, 03:26 PM Beguiler 7 / Swordsage 1 /JMT 10/ Swordsage +3
should work...

Just wondering why not Beguiler5/Swordsage1/JPM10/Beguiler+4 (or Swordsage+4)
7/1 is a bad start off, as you can get into JPM 2 levels earlier.
Either use an even number of non-adept levels or get in ASAP would be the best way.
Xylem
11-24-06, 05:24 PM In here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683941) you'll find this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10178720&postcount=424).

From what I've seen, it's the only ToB Gish build that drops it's MAD to 3 stats while still attaining +16 BAB and 9th level spells, instead of the 4-5 usually required by others, assuming they don't go for sub-par spellcasting.

Is this a shameless plug? Pretty much, yeah. I'm still proud of my creation, though.
I may be missing something, but it seems to me that this:

Wizard or Wu Jen 6/Warblade 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 3

Gives BAB +17, 9th level spells, and would get by with decent Int, Dex and Str. There's only one Devoted Spirit stance -- Castigating Strike -- that actually cares about charisma, and over half of the Desert Wind stances don't care about wisdom, so as long as you avoided those with saving throws, you'd be fine there as well.

Or am I missing something?
Chaotix42
11-24-06, 06:02 PM Hey, anyone know that spell in Complete Mage for wu jens, Transcend Mortality? It's an awesome 9th level buffing spell, and you die at the end of the duration. Use the JPM's 10th level immolation ability to kill yourself before you die from the spell, and pop back up soon after, no worse for it.
Salla
11-24-06, 06:35 PM Hey, anyone know that spell in Complete Mage for wu jens, Transcend Mortality? It's an awesome 9th level buffing spell, and you die at the end of the duration. Use the JPM's 10th level immolation ability to kill yourself before you die from the spell, and pop back up soon after, no worse for it.

Holy carp.

That's hilarious.

Y'know, if a game ever goes long enough for me to hit 10th level of JPM, I'm going to have lots of fun saying "Wait for the signal."
"What's the signal?"
"TRUST me, you'll know when you see it."

Five minutes later ...
BOOM!
ressurrector
11-24-06, 07:11 PM Hey, anyone know that spell in Complete Mage for wu jens, Transcend Mortality? It's an awesome 9th level buffing spell, and you die at the end of the duration. Use the JPM's 10th level immolation ability to kill yourself before you die from the spell, and pop back up soon after, no worse for it.

Wu Jens also get some other kickin' buff spells: like Giant Size, or metal skin.
Between Wizard and Wu Jen, I'd be inclined to take Wu Jen for the more esoteric spells they have access to, also the watchful spirit ability is finally good in Complete Mage.
X-Codes
11-24-06, 08:40 PM I may be missing something, but it seems to me that this:

Wizard or Wu Jen 6/Warblade 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 3

Gives BAB +17, 9th level spells, and would get by with decent Int, Dex and Str. There's only one Devoted Spirit stance -- Castigating Strike -- that actually cares about charisma, and over half of the Desert Wind stances don't care about wisdom, so as long as you avoided those with saving throws, you'd be fine there as well.

Or am I missing something?
Where yours relies on Int, Dex, and Str, mine only relies on Dex and Cha.

Also, I made mine before the Abjurant Champion came out. Now that we have it, making high-end Gishes is just plain easy.
Xylem
11-24-06, 09:29 PM Where yours relies on Int, Dex, and Str, mine only relies on Dex and Cha.

Also, I made mine before the Abjurant Champion came out. Now that we have it, making high-end Gishes is just plain easy.
Actually. Str is secondary to the build -- and in your build you'd benefit an awful lot from Wis, since so many of the Swordsage abilities play off of it.

Abjurant Champion certainly does make gishes a lot easier.
ForumFerret
11-24-06, 10:12 PM Just out of curiosity (to Twili and X-Codes both), why Swordsage (with the 3/4 BAB and slow maneuver recovery)?

I believe they're grabbing SwordSage over Warblade for two reasons - maneuvers/stances known and access to the Shadow Hand discipline; Shadow Hand stance + Shadow Blade feat == Dexterity to damage for melee attacks.
Salla
11-25-06, 12:47 AM I believe they're grabbing SwordSage over Warblade for two reasons - maneuvers/stances known and access to the Shadow Hand discipline; Shadow Hand stance + Shadow Blade feat == Dexterity to damage for melee attacks.

To quote a certain pointy-eared gentleman of some renown ... "Logical, Captain."
X-Codes
11-25-06, 01:23 AM Actually. Str is secondary to the build -- and in your build you'd benefit an awful lot from Wis, since so many of the Swordsage abilities play off of it.

Abjurant Champion certainly does make gishes a lot easier.
Not true at all.

1) None of the manuvers I picked warrant a saving throw, I even have Moment of Perfect Mind which changes a Will Save into a Concentration Check, taking Wisdom entirely out of the equation.

2) The only class ability that I'm getting based off Wisdom is the Swordsage's AC bonus, gained at level 10. The previous level I also obtained the feat Ascetic Mage, which allows me to change the Wisdom to AC aspect into Charisma to AC. ("If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC, you instead add your Charisma bonus to your AC.")

So basically, while wearing light armor you automatically suffer no ASF and add your Charisma bonus to AC.
Xylem
11-25-06, 01:54 AM Not true at all.

1) None of the manuvers I picked warrant a saving throw, I even have Moment of Perfect Mind which changes a Will Save into a Concentration Check, taking Wisdom entirely out of the equation.

2) The only class ability that I'm getting based off Wisdom is the Swordsage's AC bonus, gained at level 10. The previous level I also obtained the feat Ascetic Mage, which allows me to change the Wisdom to AC aspect into Charisma to AC. ("If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC, you instead add your Charisma bonus to your AC.")

So basically, while wearing light armor you automatically suffer no ASF and add your Charisma bonus to AC.
Oh. Missed that -- that is neat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Salla 11-24-06, 01:03 AM	I want to play a JPM. I REALLY want to play a JPM. They look useful AND they're cool. :) At the moment, I'm puzzling over which type of arcanist to blend with Warblade (my preferred ToB class) to make the six levels before JPM. Wizard: I don't want to mess with spellbooks, though Arcane Wrath is a great way to deal with dead weight spells. INT synergy between Warblade and Wizard reduces MAD. Sorcerer: No spellbook, gives more spell slots to burn for Arcane Wrath. Adds CHA to the abilities required. Battle Sorcerer: More HP, better BAB, cast in light armor. Fewer slots, though. Wu Jen: Same problems as the wizard, but adds the potential to add Master of Fire benefits to the fire-based JPM abilities. Warmage: Cast in armor, no spell preparation, plenty of fire spells to boost ... very limited in spell versatility, though. Limited to blasting or beating things up. CHA adds to MAD again. Any thoughts on this one, Optimization Gurus?
PhoenixInferno 11-24-06, 01:14 AM	There is also the Duskblade and the Beguiler.
Rashomon 11-24-06, 01:53 AM	I personally like Wizard 5 Warblade 1 JPM 10 Abjurant Champion 4. Wizard lets you use the sancitified spells (which are awesome) and Abjurant Champion is just great.
ressurrector 11-24-06, 02:41 AM	I've got a few JPM builds I've worked out. Personally I like the following most, though it's not as melee oriented: Warmage4/Swordsage2/JPM10/ (either Swordsage+4, Warmage+4 or +2/+2) Then grab some reserve feats to take advantage of the Warmage's high spells known and spontaneous casting. You won't get 9th level spells, you can get 9th level maneuvers, and you'll have plenty of melee punch and ranged punch at the same time. The addition of reserve feats let's you keep up low-level blasting all day long. If you want 9th level spells, the best way to go is either Wiz6/Warblade1/JPM10/Wiz+3 (or arcane PrC, possibly Abjurant Champion to raise BaB) or use WuJen6/Warblade1/JPM10/WuJen+3 (or PrC) If you want 9th level spells while using JPM you're either going to need to burn feats on martial maneuvers/stances, take non-delayed casting class as primary, or cheese yourself using Sublime Chord like in the following: Bard7/Warblade2/JPM1/Sublime Chord1/JPM+9 (arrange bard/warblade levels to taste) (bab +17 CL16 9th level spells IL 16) Cheating into Sublime Chord with Bard and Wiz leaves you with exp penalties unfortunately, though if you can get around that it can let you fit another level of Warblade in there. THinking of a way to fit Abjurant Champ in there.... will edit shortly Bard4/Warblade2/JPM4/SublimeChord1/JPM+6/Abjurant Champion3 bab 18, CL calculation makes my head hurt, 9th level spells, IL16 (though without feats you're stuck with 7th level maneuvers due to finishing JPM early) Just a Thought, anyone tried breaking bab=CL with Sublime Chord and Abjurant Champion yet?
X-Codes 11-24-06, 04:11 AM	In here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683941) you'll find this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10178720&postcount=424). From what I've seen, it's the only ToB Gish build that drops it's MAD to 3 stats while still attaining +16 BAB and 9th level spells, instead of the 4-5 usually required by others, assuming they don't go for sub-par spellcasting. Is this a shameless plug? Pretty much, yeah. I'm still proud of my creation, though.
Salla 11-24-06, 02:27 PM	In here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683941) you'll find this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10178720&postcount=424). From what I've seen, it's the only ToB Gish build that drops it's MAD to 3 stats while still attaining +16 BAB and 9th level spells, instead of the 4-5 usually required by others, assuming they don't go for sub-par spellcasting. Is this a shameless plug? Pretty much, yeah. I'm still proud of my creation, though. As well you should be. That's pretty sweet. I do wonder how it would play out with Warblade in place of Swordsage, though. Stylistic differences, I just like the 'Blade better on a personal level. :) PhoenixInferno: I flat-out forgot about the Beguiler, and I mostly dismissed the Duskblade due to its slow spell acquisition and 5th level spell cap for Arcane Wrath ... though I think that might still be better than the buffless Warmage. :)
Twili 11-24-06, 02:44 PM	Beguiler 7 / Swordsage 1 /JMT 10/ Swordsage +3 should work...
Salla 11-24-06, 02:55 PM	Beguiler 7 / Swordsage 1 /JMT 10/ Swordsage +3 should work... Just out of curiosity (to Twili and X-Codes both), why Swordsage (with the 3/4 BAB and slow maneuver recovery)?
ressurrector 11-24-06, 03:26 PM	Beguiler 7 / Swordsage 1 /JMT 10/ Swordsage +3 should work... Just wondering why not Beguiler5/Swordsage1/JPM10/Beguiler+4 (or Swordsage+4) 7/1 is a bad start off, as you can get into JPM 2 levels earlier. Either use an even number of non-adept levels or get in ASAP would be the best way.
Xylem 11-24-06, 05:24 PM	In here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683941) you'll find this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10178720&postcount=424). From what I've seen, it's the only ToB Gish build that drops it's MAD to 3 stats while still attaining +16 BAB and 9th level spells, instead of the 4-5 usually required by others, assuming they don't go for sub-par spellcasting. Is this a shameless plug? Pretty much, yeah. I'm still proud of my creation, though. I may be missing something, but it seems to me that this: Wizard or Wu Jen 6/Warblade 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 3 Gives BAB +17, 9th level spells, and would get by with decent Int, Dex and Str. There's only one Devoted Spirit stance -- Castigating Strike -- that actually cares about charisma, and over half of the Desert Wind stances don't care about wisdom, so as long as you avoided those with saving throws, you'd be fine there as well. Or am I missing something?
Chaotix42 11-24-06, 06:02 PM	Hey, anyone know that spell in Complete Mage for wu jens, Transcend Mortality? It's an awesome 9th level buffing spell, and you die at the end of the duration. Use the JPM's 10th level immolation ability to kill yourself before you die from the spell, and pop back up soon after, no worse for it.
Salla 11-24-06, 06:35 PM	Hey, anyone know that spell in Complete Mage for wu jens, Transcend Mortality? It's an awesome 9th level buffing spell, and you die at the end of the duration. Use the JPM's 10th level immolation ability to kill yourself before you die from the spell, and pop back up soon after, no worse for it. Holy carp. That's hilarious. Y'know, if a game ever goes long enough for me to hit 10th level of JPM, I'm going to have lots of fun saying "Wait for the signal." "What's the signal?" "TRUST me, you'll know when you see it." Five minutes later ... BOOM!
ressurrector 11-24-06, 07:11 PM	Hey, anyone know that spell in Complete Mage for wu jens, Transcend Mortality? It's an awesome 9th level buffing spell, and you die at the end of the duration. Use the JPM's 10th level immolation ability to kill yourself before you die from the spell, and pop back up soon after, no worse for it. Wu Jens also get some other kickin' buff spells: like Giant Size, or metal skin. Between Wizard and Wu Jen, I'd be inclined to take Wu Jen for the more esoteric spells they have access to, also the watchful spirit ability is finally good in Complete Mage.
X-Codes 11-24-06, 08:40 PM	I may be missing something, but it seems to me that this: Wizard or Wu Jen 6/Warblade 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 3 Gives BAB +17, 9th level spells, and would get by with decent Int, Dex and Str. There's only one Devoted Spirit stance -- Castigating Strike -- that actually cares about charisma, and over half of the Desert Wind stances don't care about wisdom, so as long as you avoided those with saving throws, you'd be fine there as well. Or am I missing something? Where yours relies on Int, Dex, and Str, mine only relies on Dex and Cha. Also, I made mine before the Abjurant Champion came out. Now that we have it, making high-end Gishes is just plain easy.
Xylem 11-24-06, 09:29 PM	Where yours relies on Int, Dex, and Str, mine only relies on Dex and Cha. Also, I made mine before the Abjurant Champion came out. Now that we have it, making high-end Gishes is just plain easy. Actually. Str is secondary to the build -- and in your build you'd benefit an awful lot from Wis, since so many of the Swordsage abilities play off of it. Abjurant Champion certainly does make gishes a lot easier.
ForumFerret 11-24-06, 10:12 PM	Just out of curiosity (to Twili and X-Codes both), why Swordsage (with the 3/4 BAB and slow maneuver recovery)? I believe they're grabbing SwordSage over Warblade for two reasons - maneuvers/stances known and access to the Shadow Hand discipline; Shadow Hand stance + Shadow Blade feat == Dexterity to damage for melee attacks.
Salla 11-25-06, 12:47 AM	I believe they're grabbing SwordSage over Warblade for two reasons - maneuvers/stances known and access to the Shadow Hand discipline; Shadow Hand stance + Shadow Blade feat == Dexterity to damage for melee attacks. To quote a certain pointy-eared gentleman of some renown ... "Logical, Captain."
X-Codes 11-25-06, 01:23 AM	Actually. Str is secondary to the build -- and in your build you'd benefit an awful lot from Wis, since so many of the Swordsage abilities play off of it. Abjurant Champion certainly does make gishes a lot easier. Not true at all. 1) None of the manuvers I picked warrant a saving throw, I even have Moment of Perfect Mind which changes a Will Save into a Concentration Check, taking Wisdom entirely out of the equation. 2) The only class ability that I'm getting based off Wisdom is the Swordsage's AC bonus, gained at level 10. The previous level I also obtained the feat Ascetic Mage, which allows me to change the Wisdom to AC aspect into Charisma to AC. ("If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC, you instead add your Charisma bonus to your AC.") So basically, while wearing light armor you automatically suffer no ASF and add your Charisma bonus to AC.
Xylem 11-25-06, 01:54 AM	Not true at all. 1) None of the manuvers I picked warrant a saving throw, I even have Moment of Perfect Mind which changes a Will Save into a Concentration Check, taking Wisdom entirely out of the equation. 2) The only class ability that I'm getting based off Wisdom is the Swordsage's AC bonus, gained at level 10. The previous level I also obtained the feat Ascetic Mage, which allows me to change the Wisdom to AC aspect into Charisma to AC. ("If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC, you instead add your Charisma bonus to your AC.") So basically, while wearing light armor you automatically suffer no ASF and add your Charisma bonus to AC. Oh. Missed that -- that is neat.