Best nuker: Warmage, Evoker, Sorcerer or Warlock? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best nuker: Warmage, Evoker, Sorcerer or Warlock? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Blas de Lezo
01-27-05, 11:26 AM What do you think? Who's the best nuker among Warmage, Evoker, Sorcerer or Warlock?

Maybe Warmage is the most specialized class in dealing damage, he's able to cast tons of spells per day, has Edge and the possibility to choose Extra Edge, some cool sudden feats and a martial mentality. What's your choice?
SpiritGlyph
01-27-05, 01:08 PM The best nuker isn't a full caster at all, but in fact a well-built Artificer. Give them a bit of prep time, and a mere level 10 Artificer can deal in excess of 1000 points of damage.

Second place is probably a Wilder or a Psion. Warmage I'd place third. Evokers and Sorcerer just lose out trying to do what other classes are more clearly built to handle. As for Warlocks, they're not so much direct damage dealers as they are skillful disablers. A Warlock's Eldrich Blast can never deal as much damage as any full caster can manage, but he can inflict such goodies as negative levels on his target while blasting, and he gets his powers at will, letting him blast all day.
Setanos
01-27-05, 02:19 PM After Artificer, I'd made a strong case for the Druid.

They have some amazing damage spells, Fireseeds for example. Plus, they can nuke from the comfortable safety of the nearest tree, tweeting away a birdsong and no one is the wiser.
solbergb
01-27-05, 02:21 PM given the 4 choices, not going to outside sources:

I think of a blaster mage as somebody that fills "artillery" role, always ready with different "ammo" for different situations.

1. Warmage - best flexibility in HOW he blasts and a lot of spells per day. Does slightly more damage with direct damage spells, has enough SR=no
spells. Weakness is in mobility, some feats that can help with this are arcane disciple and draconic flight. Pick evocation "extra spells" when you get the class levels that add to nonzaps, like tenser's disc, leomund's hut, wall of force and contingency. Sudden metamagic compensates at higher levels somewhat for lack of quicken spell.

2. Sorcerer - More spell slots, fewer spells known, however the ones he DOES know are sufficient to get a good range of blasting. He has a far easier time mixing in significant mobility spells and battlefield control spells. While I don't advocate building a sorcerer this way normally, he does a decent job in this role. Swift action spells compensate somewhat for lack of quicken spell, they're most often used for defensive or mobility actions.

3. Evoker - The big weakness of this class is lack of tactical flexiblity. A slot used for a spell is tied up, it can't be shifted around easily. While they get as many slots as the Warmage, pretty much, guessing wrong on the mix of spells can cut down your effective spell mix a lot. Metamagic rods and pearls of power help the most with the weaknesses of this class. An Evoker will have an easier time crafting extra scrolls to cover his weaknesses, the warmage and sorcerer normally won't need anything but their spell slots. The strategic flexibity of the wizard spellbook is pretty much wasted on a blaster mage most of the time. At 9th level plus, quicken spell helps even up the odds, but burn out the slots even faster. The problem with the evoker compared to warmage and sorc, is the former need no equipment to fill the blaster role, and really no feats either. They can run off raw class abilities. An evoker needs a lot of equipment and some feats to really fill the role. And even then, sometimes they'll be caught with pants down.

4. Warlock - is the energizer bunny, it keeps on going. If you expect to have a battle that lasts 8 hours, rather than 8 rounds, the Warlock is your man. Even the sorcerer runs out of steam after 6 or 7 fights, the warlock keeps plugging away.

That said, the warlock isn't really artillery. He's more of an archer. He can really mess up individuals and he has the stealth class abilities of a sniper if he chooses carefully. His individual attacks aren't that strong compared to his primary caster counterparts, but they never, ever, run out. Warlock suffers from the warmage weakness of class-inflexibility, but his weakness isn't "too many zaps, not enough everything else" it is "all my buffs only work on myself, and my zaps are somewhat weak on a per-round basis."
solbergb
01-27-05, 02:25 PM As others have stated, clerics (with right domains) and druids make pretty good blasters too, although the druids may want rapid spell as some of their zaps are one-round spells.

Clerics and druids suffer a bit from the Evoker problem and have similar benefits (if you guess wrong on spells, your ability to blast effectively is hampered, but you get quicken spell and clerics get additional options with divine metamagic beyond what rods can do).

Druids I'd rate higher than evoker and cleric because their spontanous power (summon nature XXX) is "blaster" role, in that it puts hurt on bad guys and makes them worry about that, all from a safe distance. But lower than sorcerer because it is predictable and stopped with a simple prot alignment spell.

Both clerics and druids don't do the blaster role as well as the arcanists sub level 7. After that they do pretty well, especially if you have good access to non-core books.

I know little of artificers, but what I do know indicates they would make superb blasters.
carnivore
01-27-05, 02:40 PM another one that has not been mentioned:

Pyrokinetisist.........a 10 lvl PrC that will give you a short ranged 10d6 ranged touch attack like the Warlock.

just another option

Artificer 10/ Pyrokinetisist 10 gives the best of both Artificers and Warlocks

the amazing 1000+/round damage then 10d6 round at will all day long.
acvar
01-27-05, 03:44 PM And het anouther that has not been mentioned is the Seeker of Song.
RadicalTaoist
01-27-05, 07:45 PM A warmage needs one level of Sorceror to get Draconic Heritage, and thus Draconic Flight.
beaver1024
01-27-05, 08:40 PM Clerics are the best nukes followed by druids. I put clerics above druids because of 2 important factors. Miracle and the Holy Word series of spells. At lower levels though druids come up ontop.
JosephKell
01-27-05, 09:35 PM How thorough solbergb.
Eytan
01-28-05, 01:01 AM Judicious use of magic and special abilities has always proven to be the lynchpin in mid and high level games I've played. Fighters are most important at lower levels when a mage can be destroyed by an orc. At higher levels, very little can hold a candle to a well designed pure spellcaster or manifester (other than some very specialized unique builds focused on special abiltiies).
Tempest Stormwind
01-28-05, 03:47 AM I had an extended example written up here for every class in both single battle and typical adventuring setup before my computer died. I don't have time to retype it, but I do have enough time to rewrite the basic lists.

Single fight:
1 Wilder (Wild Surge plus decent damage powers (Energy Missle, Concussion Blast, Crystal Shard = all bases covered) that remain useful at high levels, plus medium base attack and great defensive options, particularily against rays; can use some of the psion's tricks with power choices. Downside: Enervation, low power selection)
2 Artificer. (or should I say Blastificer?)
3 Warmage (No need to know opponents ahead of time (knows all spells on list, chooses on the fly). Warmage Edge and Armored Mage. Decent selection of damage spells in the end.)
4 Tie) Psion, Cleric, Druid. (Psion: Go nova (blow through pp) and use creative power choices with the same powers that made the wilder effective. Or, combine stuff, like psicrystal+energy wall+energy retort+schism/fission or the like. Cleric and druid are self-explanatory.)
5 Sorceror (Spell stamina, great spell choices.)
6 Warlock (unless he specializes in damage dealing, like Scrollreader's MasterBlaster, which may move him ahead of sorceror in some situations. Has interesting defensive options as well).
7 Evoker. (if the warlock isn't optimized, evoker takes spot 6. This is entirely due to spell selection, and not any other intrinsic advantage.)

Adventuring:
1) Warlock. (Keeps on going and going and going... plus can alter tactics as need fit for others, at no penalty, on the fly.)
2 tie) Warmage, Psion/Kineticist (Former for knowing all their spells all the time. Not much of a change from the first list. Non-Kineticist psions aren't this useful, actually, but kineiticists get up this high because of swapping energy powers and having actual useful damage powers. It's sort of What They Do.)
3 and 4) Artificer (if downtime is plentiful) or Druid/Cleric/Sorceror (if it isn't). This should be self-explanatory. The order depends on downtime. Rank the three basic classes as you prefer here; I consider them about equal when all is said and done.
5) Wilder. He's still useful, but the only way he can remain useful as a blaster and as other roles later is by aggressively downsizing the powers-known and by liberal use of Psychic Reformation.
6) Evoker. The wizard is designed as a magic swiss-army knife or save-or-die master, really. He doesn't peform well as a blaster.

I had a longer post than this originally. These are all my opinion only. I have NOT played or seen played a druid as a blaster (and hadn't thought about summoning nukers), nor have I played an evoker (though I did play alongside one), and most of my high-level experience is around level 15 or so, so I'm guessing at level 20 (hopefully reasonably) and on some of the classes. The others are all from either personal or very-close-to-personal experience.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blas de Lezo 01-27-05, 11:26 AM	What do you think? Who's the best nuker among Warmage, Evoker, Sorcerer or Warlock? Maybe Warmage is the most specialized class in dealing damage, he's able to cast tons of spells per day, has Edge and the possibility to choose Extra Edge, some cool sudden feats and a martial mentality. What's your choice?
SpiritGlyph 01-27-05, 01:08 PM	The best nuker isn't a full caster at all, but in fact a well-built Artificer. Give them a bit of prep time, and a mere level 10 Artificer can deal in excess of 1000 points of damage. Second place is probably a Wilder or a Psion. Warmage I'd place third. Evokers and Sorcerer just lose out trying to do what other classes are more clearly built to handle. As for Warlocks, they're not so much direct damage dealers as they are skillful disablers. A Warlock's Eldrich Blast can never deal as much damage as any full caster can manage, but he can inflict such goodies as negative levels on his target while blasting, and he gets his powers at will, letting him blast all day.
Setanos 01-27-05, 02:19 PM	After Artificer, I'd made a strong case for the Druid. They have some amazing damage spells, Fireseeds for example. Plus, they can nuke from the comfortable safety of the nearest tree, tweeting away a birdsong and no one is the wiser.
solbergb 01-27-05, 02:21 PM	given the 4 choices, not going to outside sources: I think of a blaster mage as somebody that fills "artillery" role, always ready with different "ammo" for different situations. 1. Warmage - best flexibility in HOW he blasts and a lot of spells per day. Does slightly more damage with direct damage spells, has enough SR=no spells. Weakness is in mobility, some feats that can help with this are arcane disciple and draconic flight. Pick evocation "extra spells" when you get the class levels that add to nonzaps, like tenser's disc, leomund's hut, wall of force and contingency. Sudden metamagic compensates at higher levels somewhat for lack of quicken spell. 2. Sorcerer - More spell slots, fewer spells known, however the ones he DOES know are sufficient to get a good range of blasting. He has a far easier time mixing in significant mobility spells and battlefield control spells. While I don't advocate building a sorcerer this way normally, he does a decent job in this role. Swift action spells compensate somewhat for lack of quicken spell, they're most often used for defensive or mobility actions. 3. Evoker - The big weakness of this class is lack of tactical flexiblity. A slot used for a spell is tied up, it can't be shifted around easily. While they get as many slots as the Warmage, pretty much, guessing wrong on the mix of spells can cut down your effective spell mix a lot. Metamagic rods and pearls of power help the most with the weaknesses of this class. An Evoker will have an easier time crafting extra scrolls to cover his weaknesses, the warmage and sorcerer normally won't need anything but their spell slots. The strategic flexibity of the wizard spellbook is pretty much wasted on a blaster mage most of the time. At 9th level plus, quicken spell helps even up the odds, but burn out the slots even faster. The problem with the evoker compared to warmage and sorc, is the former need no equipment to fill the blaster role, and really no feats either. They can run off raw class abilities. An evoker needs a lot of equipment and some feats to really fill the role. And even then, sometimes they'll be caught with pants down. 4. Warlock - is the energizer bunny, it keeps on going. If you expect to have a battle that lasts 8 hours, rather than 8 rounds, the Warlock is your man. Even the sorcerer runs out of steam after 6 or 7 fights, the warlock keeps plugging away. That said, the warlock isn't really artillery. He's more of an archer. He can really mess up individuals and he has the stealth class abilities of a sniper if he chooses carefully. His individual attacks aren't that strong compared to his primary caster counterparts, but they never, ever, run out. Warlock suffers from the warmage weakness of class-inflexibility, but his weakness isn't "too many zaps, not enough everything else" it is "all my buffs only work on myself, and my zaps are somewhat weak on a per-round basis."
solbergb 01-27-05, 02:25 PM	As others have stated, clerics (with right domains) and druids make pretty good blasters too, although the druids may want rapid spell as some of their zaps are one-round spells. Clerics and druids suffer a bit from the Evoker problem and have similar benefits (if you guess wrong on spells, your ability to blast effectively is hampered, but you get quicken spell and clerics get additional options with divine metamagic beyond what rods can do). Druids I'd rate higher than evoker and cleric because their spontanous power (summon nature XXX) is "blaster" role, in that it puts hurt on bad guys and makes them worry about that, all from a safe distance. But lower than sorcerer because it is predictable and stopped with a simple prot alignment spell. Both clerics and druids don't do the blaster role as well as the arcanists sub level 7. After that they do pretty well, especially if you have good access to non-core books. I know little of artificers, but what I do know indicates they would make superb blasters.
carnivore 01-27-05, 02:40 PM	another one that has not been mentioned: Pyrokinetisist.........a 10 lvl PrC that will give you a short ranged 10d6 ranged touch attack like the Warlock. just another option Artificer 10/ Pyrokinetisist 10 gives the best of both Artificers and Warlocks the amazing 1000+/round damage then 10d6 round at will all day long.
acvar 01-27-05, 03:44 PM	And het anouther that has not been mentioned is the Seeker of Song.
RadicalTaoist 01-27-05, 07:45 PM	A warmage needs one level of Sorceror to get Draconic Heritage, and thus Draconic Flight.
beaver1024 01-27-05, 08:40 PM	Clerics are the best nukes followed by druids. I put clerics above druids because of 2 important factors. Miracle and the Holy Word series of spells. At lower levels though druids come up ontop.
JosephKell 01-27-05, 09:35 PM	How thorough solbergb.
Eytan 01-28-05, 01:01 AM	Judicious use of magic and special abilities has always proven to be the lynchpin in mid and high level games I've played. Fighters are most important at lower levels when a mage can be destroyed by an orc. At higher levels, very little can hold a candle to a well designed pure spellcaster or manifester (other than some very specialized unique builds focused on special abiltiies).
Tempest Stormwind 01-28-05, 03:47 AM	I had an extended example written up here for every class in both single battle and typical adventuring setup before my computer died. I don't have time to retype it, but I do have enough time to rewrite the basic lists. Single fight: 1 Wilder (Wild Surge plus decent damage powers (Energy Missle, Concussion Blast, Crystal Shard = all bases covered) that remain useful at high levels, plus medium base attack and great defensive options, particularily against rays; can use some of the psion's tricks with power choices. Downside: Enervation, low power selection) 2 Artificer. (or should I say Blastificer?) 3 Warmage (No need to know opponents ahead of time (knows all spells on list, chooses on the fly). Warmage Edge and Armored Mage. Decent selection of damage spells in the end.) 4 Tie) Psion, Cleric, Druid. (Psion: Go nova (blow through pp) and use creative power choices with the same powers that made the wilder effective. Or, combine stuff, like psicrystal+energy wall+energy retort+schism/fission or the like. Cleric and druid are self-explanatory.) 5 Sorceror (Spell stamina, great spell choices.) 6 Warlock (unless he specializes in damage dealing, like Scrollreader's MasterBlaster, which may move him ahead of sorceror in some situations. Has interesting defensive options as well). 7 Evoker. (if the warlock isn't optimized, evoker takes spot 6. This is entirely due to spell selection, and not any other intrinsic advantage.) Adventuring: 1) Warlock. (Keeps on going and going and going... plus can alter tactics as need fit for others, at no penalty, on the fly.) 2 tie) Warmage, Psion/Kineticist (Former for knowing all their spells all the time. Not much of a change from the first list. Non-Kineticist psions aren't this useful, actually, but kineiticists get up this high because of swapping energy powers and having actual useful damage powers. It's sort of What They Do.) 3 and 4) Artificer (if downtime is plentiful) or Druid/Cleric/Sorceror (if it isn't). This should be self-explanatory. The order depends on downtime. Rank the three basic classes as you prefer here; I consider them about equal when all is said and done. 5) Wilder. He's still useful, but the only way he can remain useful as a blaster and as other roles later is by aggressively downsizing the powers-known and by liberal use of Psychic Reformation. 6) Evoker. The wizard is designed as a magic swiss-army knife or save-or-die master, really. He doesn't peform well as a blaster. I had a longer post than this originally. These are all my opinion only. I have NOT played or seen played a druid as a blaster (and hadn't thought about summoning nukers), nor have I played an evoker (though I did play alongside one), and most of my high-level experience is around level 15 or so, so I'm guessing at level 20 (hopefully reasonably) and on some of the classes. The others are all from either personal or very-close-to-personal experience.