Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ithilorien 02-13-04, 01:07 AM	Kind of to the theme of Snow's "weak and weird spells YOU make strong" thread, I'd like to start a discussion on the verious spells available to the bard and interesting tactics which can be used to optimize their capability. Here are some of my favorites: Cacophonic Burst (savage species) - sonic fireball at 15d6, who says bards can't do damage? Improvisation (Song and Silence) - the ultimate bard spell, it allows you to create a pool of points which can give you insane skill boosts or attack roll bonuses. Summon Monster - summon "useless" creatures to spring traps, carry loot, or act as decoys. Summon a protectar for cure spells and healing checks (Snow's). Wounding Whispers/Cacophonic Shield (Magic of Faerun)- a great spell for a "battle bard" these spells are like a sonic version of fire shield, great to use if you've decided your going to let yourself get hit.
balefire42 02-13-04, 01:52 AM	Glibness grants a +30 bonus to bluff. The bonus to someone's sense motive check for a completely out there lie is +20. Combine that with a decent amount of ranks in bluff, and you can get just about anyone to believe just about anything.
itsgotime 02-13-04, 06:25 AM	Magic of Faerun is my favorite place to go for fun Bard Spells Puppeteer is my favorite Bard spell(to use on the party and enemies) Its a doublemint commercial in a box just waiting to happen. Balagarn's Iron Horn what comes to mind when I think of this, oh ya, two men walk into a bar. The third man ducks. Distort Speach cast this on the town authority when he's giving a speech, see everyone laugh at the new town drunk! G'elswhere Chant the name of this spell alone is the power of it, but I always kept it handy for when I had an close to or dying companion. Know Protections what else can I say. Ghostharp Have you ever seen the one man band guy on the Gong Show? Greatness! You can use any and all spells from Magic of Faerun without looking at another book.
Gerdreg 02-13-04, 07:40 AM	Look for the spells Bards get levels earlier than Sorcs and Wizs. Ottiluke's Irresistable Dance is a 6th level spell for Bards for example. These can be very easy to powergame.
itsgotime 02-13-04, 07:49 AM	Originally posted by Gerdreg Looks for the spells Bards get levels earlier than Sorcs and Wizs. Ottiluke's Irresistable Dance is a 6th level spell for Bards for example. These can be very easy to powergame. Looks for when the bard gets those spells and sees 6th lvl spells are recieved at 16th lvl(as long as the bard has appropriate ability score to recieve the bonus spell otherwise 17th lvl). One/two lvls AFTER Sorc/Wiz get the same spell in their repetoire, sp?. If you are talking about powergaming, Bard should definately not be where you start!
CaoSlayer 02-13-04, 08:08 AM	okey, some good examples: 3.0: planeshift: who says that bards dont have a single save or die? planeshift an enemy into negative energy plane and he wouldnt come back. who says that a bard can cast heal? planeshift into the positive energy plane and get healed fully plus lots of temporary hp Emotions - Rage: Are you fighting against several "weak" casters? use this spell and if they fail the will save, they will be enraged and wouldnt be able to cast spells 3.X: Silence: prepare to cast it close to anyone who casts a spell: perfect counterspell shatter anything: with dispell magic targered to an object, if you are able to dispell it, the item would become non-magical for a 1d4+1, know you can destroy it freely with shatter. men down: being in a place with a cliff a river or acid of something of the style, cast grease under enemy feets and then a gust of wind. the perfect spy: alter self + tonges, you would look and talk like an orc or a drow perfectly. poor manīs mislead: cast invisibility and now cast a silence-minor-mayor-persistent image of yourself. this combo last more than mislead and it is perfect for fooling someone in a tournament or something alike. -------- The most ridiculous overpowered bard spell: Fanfare(S&S p90) <Evoc, VSM(small horn), 1StdAct, Fort―> – Everyone in a 100’ Cone is a) Stunned for 1d4 rounds & Deafen for twice as long (no save); and b) Takes 4d6 damage (FortNeg). Brittle object take 2d6 damage which ignores hardness. [corrected, I have posted the exact effects of the spell] ----
itsgotime 02-13-04, 08:18 AM	[i]The most ridiculous overpowered bard spell: Fanfarre (S&S): stuns everyone in a cone 1d4+1 rounds WITHOUT SAVE, and if the save it is done, deafs. ---- [/B] Wow, I never got to 6th lvl spells when I played my Bard, but dang that spell is awesome! So tell me in comparison to all the 9th lvl arcane and divine spells why is this SO overpowered?
CaoSlayer 02-13-04, 08:31 AM	Originally posted by itsgotime Wow, I never got to 6th lvl spells when I played my Bard, but dang that spell is awesome! So tell me in comparison to all the 9th lvl arcane and divine spells why is this SO overpowered? it is quite comparable to power word kill or blasphemy, who also stuns without save. fanfarre it is superior in the broader amount of effects and the 100 feets cone but it is inferior in a little detail: deafned oponents shouldnt be affected by the spell, so you cant cast it twice in a row unlike PWK and blasph :rolleyes:
Snow Savant 02-13-04, 09:07 AM	Actually Caoslayer, they do have one dave-or-die spell .... Curse of the Putrid Husk from the BovD. It's incredible effective as well, playing into the strengths of the Bard's predilection for the Illusion magic school. And for 3rd level, you can't beat it. Well ... unless you are *Good*. :smirk: In the BoED, Refreshment (3rd level) alone is worth it if you are a consistent and maxed-out user of Word of Creation. Heaven's Trumpet from BoED (6th Level) makes a great capstone save-or-die spell as well. It's AoE and targetting of only "foes" allows it to hit a whole ton of creatures. And being an Evocation, it's further evidence that a Spell Focus and GSF feat in Evocation has possibilities. ** Remember too, all the Sanctified and Corrupt spell from BoED & BoVD are fair game for access to a Bard as well. You need the Spell Preparation feat, which usually sucks for a Bard, but their are some pretty terrific spells in those 2 batches as well. Wish I could write more, except I'm in a rush this morning. Nice thread, Ilithorien! XO, Snow :cloud9:
Gerdreg 02-13-04, 09:27 AM	Originally posted by itsgotime Looks for when the bard gets those spells and sees 6th lvl spells are recieved at 16th lvl(as long as the bard has appropriate ability score to recieve the bonus spell otherwise 17th lvl). One/two lvls AFTER Sorc/Wiz get the same spell in their repetoire, sp?. If you are talking about powergaming, Bard should definately not be where you start! :teach: I think it misses the point when people argue, "well if you really wanna powergame that, you should be this instead!". He's asking about maximizing a Bard, not anything else. But, to continue your comparison, a Sorcerer (the best comparison to a bard cause they are both spontaneous Cha based casters) doesn't get 8th level spells (using Otiluke's as my current example) until level 16th level, the same level the Bard gets it as a 6th level spell. You don't think that's powerful (remeber it has no save)? Also remember the Bard gets many other abilities to boot and can cast in armor. My point is, the Bard gets some spells (Dominate Person would be another example, but im not going to list every one) at the same level or lower than a Sorc gets them. Those spells tend to be more powerful (they are after all higher level spells for other casters) than other spells Bards gets at that level.
CaoSlayer 02-13-04, 10:01 AM	ummm, most things from Book of Exalted Darkness or the Book of Vile Deeds make me sick... so I usually tend to just ignore them. --- he, that isnt a comparation of an "optimized" sorcerer against a "optimized bard" try to compare any kind of sorcerer with this casting bard: Bard 4 / (Sorcerer 1 or Wizard 1) [I would have to check if you can do it with bard 3, wizard 2, this would asure level 9 arcane spells) / spellsinger 5 / virtuoso 10 This combo gives you: HP: 1d4+19d6 19 level bardic songs (get all but +4 inspire courage) Virtuoso and spellsinger features (extra songs, skill to spontaneous casting almost any enchantment) 6*4 skill points, 4*15 sp, 2*1 sp and the most important thing: CASTS SPELLS LIKE A LEVEL 16 SORCERER (o wizard I sighly prefer this combo with the wizard because the spellsinger feature). And people claims than the eldritch knight it is broken... :D
Gerdreg 02-13-04, 10:10 AM	Originally posted by CaoSlayer ummm, most things from Book of Exalted Darkness or the Book of Vile Deeds make me sick... so I usually tend to just ignore them. --- he, that isnt a comparation of an "optimized" sorcerer against a "optimized bard" try to compare any kind of sorcerer with this casting bard: Bard 4 / (Sorcerer 1 or Wizard 1) [I would have to check if you can do it with bard 3, wizard 2, this would asure level 9 arcane spells) / spellsinger 5 / virtuoso 10 This combo gives you: HP: 1d4+19d6 19 level bardic songs (get all but +4 inspire courage) Virtuoso and spellsinger features (extra songs, skill to spontaneous casting almost any enchantment) 6*4 skill points, 4*15 sp, 2*1 sp and the most important thing: CASTS SPELLS LIKE A LEVEL 16 SORCERER (o wizard I sighly prefer this combo with the wizard because the spellsinger feature). And people claims than the eldritch knight it is broken... :D Now that's an optimized caster Bard. :bow:
itsgotime 02-13-04, 10:23 AM	Originally posted by Ithilorien Kind of to the theme of Snow's "weak and weird spells YOU make strong" thread, I'd like to start a discussion on the verious spells available to the bard and interesting tactics which can be used to optimize their capability. He's asking for weak and weird Bard spells you make strong. Not Maximizing, or Powergaming a Bard, but giving more meaning to spells in the bards small(in comparison to the Sorc) list of spells to choose from. If you are saying the Sorc is an inferior class I second that motion(except that he gets 9th lvl spells which a Bard doesnt get any spells equivalent to). If you are saying that the OID spell is too unbalancing then I have to disagree. Yes there are a few*emphasis on few* 6th lvl spells a bard has that are equivalent to 8th lvl Sorc/Wiz spells, but so what. Fanfare is far more game breaking than OID. CDG makes sure of that.
CaoSlayer 02-13-04, 10:29 AM	okey... I went kind off-topic... ummm, telīs see If I can remember another combo... ah yes!! Terror from the sky: needed dimensional door and feather fall. just use dimensional door about 100 feets about battle and cast the feather fall as a free action, now you can do anything from the sky without worring about barbarians with huge axes. (also this combo dont have the disavantage of the 3.0 levitation spell for an archer)
Gerdreg 02-13-04, 11:16 AM	Originally posted by itsgotime He's asking for weak and weird Bard spells you make strong. Not Maximizing, or Powergaming a Bard, but giving more meaning to spells in the bards small(in comparison to the Sorc) list of spells to choose from. If you are saying the Sorc is an inferior class I second that motion(except that he gets 9th lvl spells which a Bard doesnt get any spells equivalent to). If you are saying that the OID spell is too unbalancing then I have to disagree. Yes there are a few*emphasis on few* 6th lvl spells a bard has that are equivalent to 8th lvl Sorc/Wiz spells, but so what. Fanfare is far more game breaking than OID. CDG makes sure of that. I see your point, It seems I have strayed from the topic. I'll add this then so that I at least contribute something. Geas - Bard, Wiz/Sorc 6 In some of the campaigns I have been in, players only seemed to use it on eachother or not at all. Thinking out of the box, it has the potential to bypass an unwinable encounter all together. For example, The group stumbles across a Dragon's lair. "You may not harm us, and must let us pass safely" could be a Geas(assuming the Dragon let's the Bard finish the spell) that saves the party's lives. Another example could involve succeeding in a task that would otherwise be too difficult, a Large Flaming Demon is trying to cross a bridge and the party must stop it. A proper Geas "You may not pass" could stop it in it's tracks. Geas also has no save.
CaoSlayer 02-13-04, 11:29 AM	Originally posted by Gerdreg Geas also has no save. but a casting time of 10 minutes... keeping a dragon sitting 10 minutes in my opinion it is harder that slaying him.
VirgilCaine 02-13-04, 12:29 PM	3.0: who says that a bard can cast heal? planeshift into the positive energy plane and get healed fully plus lots of temporary hp Unless the party member can come back, they will explode once their temporary HP equals double their max HP...duh.
PhaedrusXY 02-13-04, 01:26 PM	Confusion is a great spell. Nothing takes out a group of weak willed fighters like it. Charm Monster is also great. Have a semi-permanent bodyguard that is twice as tough as your party's tank! Before the spell wears off, ask your "friend" if he'd be willing to let you cast a spell on him to help him protect you better. That way he won't resist it and depending on your DM may not even get a Will save. :smirk:
Snow Savant 02-13-04, 03:04 PM	Yeah, Charm Monster and Silent Image are my quintessential Bard spells. I've used them more times than any other Bard spells. Silent Image being the best pound-for-pound "effect" spell of the Bard. I've consistently used Silent Image even at high levels of play to make really big, tough monsters waste anywhere from 1-4 actions "interacting" and dealing with the figment. And in 1-4 actions, your other party mates are kept safe from attack of said beasty, while able to fully unload their devastating attacks. While Minor Image is equally as good, I tend to like other Bard 2nd level spells a little better. Although Major Image is a huge step upward (especialy due to the Concentration + 3 Round Duration) and an absolute must have. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Ithilorien 02-13-04, 03:18 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant I've consistently used Silent Image even at high levels of play to make really big, tough monsters waste anywhere from 1-4 actions "interacting" and dealing with the figment. Query: What are the typical images you use to delay enemies? Phantom adventurers? Illusionary walls/fog/darkness?
CaoSlayer 02-16-04, 07:45 AM	Originally posted by Ithilorien Query: What are the typical images you use to delay enemies? Phantom adventurers? Illusionary walls/fog/darkness? he he he, thant remind me to one friendīs party where they used silent image of a big muscular black man for teasing a female PC with vow of chastity... :rolleyes:
Ranthanas 02-16-04, 11:30 AM	Message: Subsonics feat Lite- only your intended targets can hear your music Prestadigitation: The spell that makes it worth being a caster and why has no one mentioned Sculpt Sound? Makes Move Silently reudndant for the entire party without nerfing party casting (for that matter, it can allow you to cast spells that are effectively silent to anyone not within 2') and has many, many more uses.