Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZebRaderJedi 05-18-04, 10:50 PM	Skulan had a great idea in that OTHER monster thread. Originally posted by Skulan Bugbear, of course. Record time for thread fizzling: one post. Perhaps a shift of focus is required. The thread title intrigued me, as it sounded like a place for people to post sometimes-overlooked races that are more powerful than they seem. Kind of like the Weak & Weird spell lists that are always such a hoot. Or you could break it down into a more specific generality, such as the best monster race or template below a certain LA for each core class. Given the new rules in UA for buying off level adjustments, I think figuring out the best combo of race and template for each core class, with a maximum LA of 3, would be an interesting thought experiment. I'd posit that the Mineral Warrior/Feral combo is an excellent start for a barbarian, but that's just my own limited opinion. There's probably better out there. -Skulan I agree w/ Otto that Bugbear is one of the best "monster" races, buddy of mine had a bugbear cohort that kicked butt & took names. I've seen a bit about folks playing kobolds, but not too many describing their favorite Hobgoblin PC. This perhaps underused race is fairly tight with low to no penalties (aside from any that the campaign world might throw out there) but great for Ranger/Fighter/Rogues/just about anything else. Anybody play in Kalamar yet? I have the book, but haven't made time for it yet. Hmm, maybe it's time for Zeb the Hobgoblin, hahaha. Anyway, UA LA buyoff does open the door nicely to expand suitable PC races. It's late, I'm out, anyone else have some hidden treasures they'd like to share? Thanks! Zeb
TheLightIsDead 05-19-04, 11:19 AM	i dont think that many people will post in this thread. I am afraid that the temptation to flame me AND talk about roleplay is too great for some members of this board
ZebRaderJedi 05-19-04, 11:25 AM	Hahaha, you could be right. Figured it worth a shot to have a flame-less version of the thread. :)
baoban sith 05-19-04, 11:31 AM	The 3.0 Vanara was extremely good(broken), and the Mezumi is still fairly nifty.
Fugazi 05-19-04, 11:57 AM	stop bringing up beaten horses and focus on the thread : I think the half troll is almost invaluable in combination with half fiendish (as mentioned in the other thread, right?) as a high level tank. He can take a hella of a beating and even while grappled he can pack a punch with his natural attacks. Is a Thri-Khreen grappler feasable? I thought I had read somewhere that multiple arms gave you a bonus on grapple - what about grappling two enemies at once with a really high strength score and using them as living shields while killing them off with feats/prc's such as the Reaping Mauler. clearly not the best build but hey, might be a funny single shot character or npc/bad ass enemy :)
Galnandros 05-19-04, 12:12 PM	stop bringing up beaten horses and focus on the thread : seconded Pixie is an excellent start for an arcane trickster.. because it can cast 1 third level arcane spell(dispel magic), with 3 levels of rogue and 1 level of wizard/sorceror you're good to go with AT, as opposed to rogue 3/sorceror 5 normally needed, so you're getting in at the minimum level any other character could, and that +6 cha, int, +8 dex doesnt hurt for the AT either... its exactly what id play if i played a monstrous character
Ethendril 05-19-04, 12:36 PM	Originally posted by Galnandros seconded Pixie is an excellent start for an arcane trickster.. because it can cast 1 third level arcane spell(dispel magic), with 3 levels of rogue and 1 level of wizard/sorceror you're good to go with AT, as opposed to rogue 3/sorceror 5 normally needed, so you're getting in at the minimum level any other character could, and that +6 cha, int, +8 dex doesnt hurt for the AT either... its exactly what id play if i played a monstrous character But having a spell-like ability with the third level spell is not the same thing as casting a third level spell. I don't think you can get around that prerequisite this way, although it sure would be powerful.
Lord_of_Rabbits 05-19-04, 01:10 PM	Isn't the prerequisite: ability to cast third level spells? A pixie can cast dispel magic, which is a third level spell, so I'd say you can qualify that way. It seems to me with the way it's currently worded that it is legal, but maybe it got errata'ed or something.
necrosnoop110 05-19-04, 01:17 PM	From SRD 3.5: ARCANE TRICKSTER Requirements To qualify to become an arcane trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria. Alignment: Any nonlawful. Skills: Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks. Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher. Special: Sneak attack +2d6.
Anders Rasmussen 05-19-04, 03:19 PM	Originally posted by Ethendril But having a spell-like ability with the third level spell is not the same thing as casting a third level spell. I don't think you can get around that prerequisite this way, although it sure would be powerful. Well, Skip Williams is adressing the issue of spell-like ability level in All About Spell-Like Abilities (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040427a). It seems that a having dispel magic as a spell-like ability counts as a 3rd level arcane spell. Unless I'm getting it all worng. This way you could allso qualify for AT with: Assimar1/rouge3/soc2 (soc2 is so you dont get xp-pen. Assimar is for daylight) This could actually be quite usefull for getting it those semi caster (arcane mostly) PrCs... Anders Rasmussen
Ethendril 05-19-04, 04:36 PM	I read the articles on spell-like abilities, too. They repeatedly talk about "duplicating" a spell, not actually casting a spell. Arcane trickster says you have to actually cast the spell. If spell-like abilities were intended to just be casting spells, I think they would just be called "spell" abilities instead of "spell-like". If it was the same thing, pixies could probably just cast dispel magic once a day, rather than having a spell-like ability. I could just be confused, but I think they are different things. Over in the Core Arena thread, I have a pixie arcane trickster, and wasn't allowed to use the spell-like to qualify for the ability to actually cast the spell. Oh, well...
catharz 05-19-04, 09:25 PM	Originally posted by Anders Rasmussen Well, Skip Williams is adressing the issue of spell-like ability level in All About Spell-Like Abilities (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040427a). It seems that a having dispel magic as a spell-like ability counts as a 3rd level arcane spell. Unless I'm getting it all worng. This way you could allso qualify for AT with: Assimar1/rouge3/soc2 (soc2 is so you dont get xp-pen. Assimar is for daylight) This could actually be quite usefull for getting it those semi caster (arcane mostly) PrCs... Anders Rasmussen I don't see that at all. Could you explain (or quote) what passage leads you to believe that spell-like abilities qualify as spellcasting? Spellcasting is a very specific type of Spell-like ability. The only creature that I know of that gives the use of a specific spell as 'spellcasting' rather then a Spell-like ability is the 3.0 Gnome. And there are a number of creatures in Dragon 319 who can manifest certain powers (rather then using Psi-like abilities). Anyway, White dragonspawn is well known as a great template for a Sorceror, but it is really a great template for just about any character. Just make sure that unless you play in a very odd campaign world, one of the spells you know is Disguise self.
widow 05-19-04, 10:59 PM	The wendigo template (+4 LA) is impressive. It gives a nice assortment of stat bonuses (+20 something in all), fly of 120, cha as a deflection bonus to saving throws, and Regeneration 5 against everything but fire. The key is the last ability. All you need is the savage species firesubtype ritual or an energy immunity spell mixed with a Favor of Ilamater spell from faerun and you are immune to all damage. Or course this works with any regenerators that can make themselves immune to either vulerablilites. I also like the anthropomorphic baleen whale. It gets +20 to stats, has a tail attack, natural armor 9, and is large in size. The main thing that is interesting is that it has no level adjustment, just 3 racial hit dice which give 2 good saves and full BAB. It is also a nice starting point for a feral half-dragon (add feral to whale first, then half-dragon template. You end up with d12 for your 3 hit die, 1d8 claw damage, a bite attack, and +44 to stats for an ECL of 7. Can go almost go classless as well by just taking on extra heads which add more racial hit dice, bite attacks, and breath weapons (dc off of racial hit dice). The anthropomorphic giant octopus with the silveraith template from city of the spider queen is fun. At an ECL of 15 it has 8 tenacle attacks that do 3d8+5 damage. The squid for 1 more ECL will net you 10. Not to mention all the other neat silveraith abilities. The sharn with its 4HD and +5 LA is also nice. The +54 to stats alone is worth it It looks a little strange, but with 12 natural attacks, 4 domains, cleric and sorc spell casting, and hex portals it is alot of fun. It is in the monster of fauren web update. Also the phaerun (or however you spell it) which cast all sorceror spells as spell like abilities with out material costs.
catharz 05-20-04, 04:37 AM	I'm not sure about the Silverwraith, although the Spawn ability may make it worth the high LA. I think it wold work best with a Non-giant Anthro Squid, due to the lower ECL (and all the attacks will be incorporeal touch anyway). Sharn are just cool. The looking wierd is one of the best parts. I love how it is a creature that looks cool and has all of the abilities to fufil it's role as crazy genius alien magic creature. Rather then being a fruity Insectile Anthropomorphic Parakeet (I'm looking at you, Spellweaver!). Sharn belong up there with Psionic illithids, Rakhshasa, and Ghaele(s?). Everything just fits.
Anders Rasmussen 05-20-04, 07:37 AM	Originally posted by catharz I don't see that at all. Could you explain (or quote) what passage leads you to believe that spell-like abilities qualify as spellcasting? From "All About Spell-Like Abilities (Part Three)" Exactly what level spell a spell-like ability duplicates often proves unclear, because most spells become available to casters of different classes at different levels. To determine the spell level for a spell-like ability, always use the level for the sorcerer/wizard version of the spell. If the spell has no sorcerer/wizard level, use cleric, druid, bard, paladin, or ranger level, in that order. Sometimes a creature's description will specify a kind of caster for the creature's spell-like abilities. If this is so, use the appropriate level for the spell-like ability. ... Some spells work differently for different kinds of casters. In such cases, use the sorcerer/wizard version of the spell. If the spell has no sorcerer/wizard version, use cleric, druid, bard, paladin, or ranger level, in that order. Sometimes a creature's description will specify a kind of caster for the creature's spell-like abilities. If this is so, use the version for the spell-like ability. Well, the duplicates part all so bring me to some doubt, and I would still say that as far as having the ability to cast a spell, a spell-like ability is enough. But I guess that if it directly needs to be a spell, then Skip is making it quite clear in the part 2: Differences Between Spells and Spell-Like Abilities A spell-like ability is not a spell. (If it was, it would simply be called a spell.) Well, as a DM I could be convince that spell-like abilities a sufficient, but then again I mostly play with the rules favoring Min/Max´ing the most... Anders Rasmussen
Dave1001 05-20-04, 08:11 AM	edit: Anders beat me to it. Spell-like abilities are not the same as spells.
Diabolic Doppelganger 06-25-04, 01:05 AM	Originally posted by Catharz Rather then being a fruity Insectile Anthropomorphic Parakeet (I'm looking at you, Spellweaver!). :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :bow:
foxylady 06-25-04, 02:13 AM	Originally posted by catharz Rather then being a fruity Insectile Anthropomorphic Parakeet (I'm looking at you, Spellweaver!). Is that a real build or a joke? I can't find it in the archives.
Potlok 06-25-04, 05:51 AM	Where can I find the Sharn? Also the usual templates like feral, mineral warrior and stuff in what book are they? Thank you in advance
Funny Slaughter 06-25-04, 06:25 AM	sharn is in monsters of faerun, update in the web-enhancement to PGtF. feral is in savage species mineral warrior in underdark. maybe i should add such a section in the build FAQ *makesnote* gs Funny
Khazra Reborn 06-25-04, 08:32 AM	I'd second the wendigo, i just hate that it's always chaotic evil (our DM doesn't allow good, evil creatures as PCs). However, as mentioned the stat bonuses are excellent, cha as deflection to saves can make for very good saves & the fly 120 ft at 4th level is amazing. I see this race as a great pre-face for an evil FB due to cha to saves & a FB capable of 120ft flight is just nasty. If you could swing it an exalted half-celestial VoP wendigo could also be cool & very resistant to....everything:D
akhlakh the devastator 10-21-04, 03:25 PM	I'd second the wendigo, i just hate that it's always chaotic evil (our DM doesn't allow good, evil creatures as PCs). However, as mentioned the stat bonuses are excellent, cha as deflection to saves can make for very good saves & the fly 120 ft at 4th level is amazing. I see this race as a great pre-face for an evil FB due to cha to saves & a FB capable of 120ft flight is just nasty. If you could swing it an exalted half-celestial VoP wendigo could also be cool & very resistant to....everything:D I only see the wendigo getting a CHA bonus to AC not to saves. Where did you get that stat from? I have the Wendigo template from Fiend Folio that i am using.
akhlakh the devastator 10-21-04, 03:48 PM	The sharn with its 4HD and +5 LA is also nice. The +54 to stats alone is worth it It looks a little strange, but with 12 natural attacks, 4 domains, cleric and sorc spell casting, and hex portals it is alot of fun. It is in the monster of fauren web update. Also the phaerun (or however you spell it) which cast all sorceror spells as spell like abilities with out material costs. How do you work out the +54 to stats for the Sharn? It looks very kool. I assume it would have an ECL of 9?
Iku Rex 10-21-04, 04:01 PM	anyone else have some hidden treasures they'd like to share?Incarnate Construct (SS template) Maug (FF). Large size, +7 natural armor, +10 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha, 40 ft. move. All for +1 LA (and two "giant levels"). (Maugs aren't that bad without the template either, at LA +3. I think one would make a good Eberron character. The Con nonability hurts for a fighter-type though.)
Neonsamurai 10-21-04, 04:05 PM	I wonder why no one mentioned minotaur yet. It is amazing for a martial character.
widow 10-21-04, 04:12 PM	akhlakh the devastator the sharn is found in two sources. The orginal 3.0 sharn is in the Monsters of Fauren book. I think the 3.5 online conversion update to forgotten realms has a section on this book. Just downloaded from wizards. It provides an ECL and modifications made to the sharn. As for stats, half of them get +8 and the other half get +10. This allows you to basically play any class combo you want from melee to spell casting. Makes a great Mystic thuerge/True Necromancer. Also you can advance it by an additional 4 HD and take him to huge in size. If you get his BAB high enough you can also take all the multi-weapon attack feats.
akhlakh the devastator 10-21-04, 04:19 PM	akhlakh the devastator the sharn is found in two sources. The orginal 3.0 sharn is in the Monsters of Fauren book. I think the 3.5 online conversion update to forgotten realms has a section on this book. Just downloaded from wizards. It provides an ECL and modifications made to the sharn. As for stats, half of them get +8 and the other half get +10. This allows you to basically play any class combo you want from melee to spell casting. Makes a great Mystic thuerge/True Necromancer. Also you can advance it by an additional 4 HD and take him to huge in size. If you get his BAB high enough you can also take all the multi-weapon attack feats. Ahhh I see now. I have all the literature on the Sharn I just couldn't work out the ability +'s. Can you put the +10 and +8 in any stat you want as long as you do it half and half? Can I build my stats from the 32 point by and then add the +'s from there? thanks.
Vainglory 10-21-04, 04:50 PM	It's easy to find monsters to play as fighter types...basically anything that gives +2 str per LA and a similiar con bonus is eventually going to hit as often, do more damage, and have more hit points than your normal tanks. Any natural armor and spell like abilities or other goodies are just icing on the cake. Throw in things like reach, regen, and damage reduction and non monster pc's are going to be very jealous in the combat arena. Although not maximed as much as things like half ogres, mineral warrior, and feral classes the following are very playable, it's just a matter of getting through the early tougher levels. Ogre +8str +4 dex, +5 natural armor, reach...4 hd 2 la Troll +12 str, +12 con, +4 dex, reach, regen 6hd 5la Gnoll Several of the Slaad Several Giants Ghaele (and caster to boot, way broken, in 3.5 don't have a la so I assume developers realized their mistake in savage species) Astral Deva (sure some would disagree with this choice, but try it first) Thumbing through the monster manual picking stuff got tired of stating it out after first couple. As mentioned though the trick to playing this stuff is staying alive until it matches the prowess of your average fighter which often means choosing not to play one of these creatures if your campaign won't go high enough in level. By best early level survival tip is to wear mithral chain until you get armor proficiency...this especially applies to the outsiders. Many of which are entirely under rated. Playing a succubus blackguard as a tank/utility creature right now and despite the lack of hit points she does well with her damage reduction and natural armor bonus. BAB is a little low but it will only be couple points behind in epic since you get to add BAB until you have 20 hd. Most stuff I would have trouble hitting falls to spell like abilities easily, and for those that don't well, that's why you adventure in parties, to hide your weaknesses or teleporting away is always an option. Plus I have the luxury of amazing saving throws, spell resistance, +16 divine might damage 16 rounds a day, great skills from outsider dice, including stealth skills, spot, listen a long with the standard 'face' skills, cross class Use Magic Device with a +19 bonus (charisma + circlet of persuasion) to the ranks I have, making her a viable character in almost any situation, after Blackguard 7, I'll be moving into Nar Demonbinder to further improve versatility... I'll eventually have 16 BAB, 8th level spells, with feat to give me a 9th level spell I can learn epic spells which is huge in epic levels.
SolitudeSeraph 10-21-04, 05:22 PM	I tend to like the Slpyh (From Monster Manual 2)...they're Small Outsiders (Air Subtype)...they've been mentioned before... 30ft Speed, 90ft fly speed (Good) With improved invisibility at will, outsider traits (darkvision, cannot be ressurected), SR 14, Summon Monster VI 1/day to summon a large elemental, and empower spell.. They cast as 7th level sorcs (gain spells by 4+hd so..they have 3 outsider hit die and I believe the LA was +4..not sure) The best thing to do is just get more outsider hit die (good hd/saves/skills, and gain spellcasting) Plus they're perfect for Arcane Tricksters with improved invisibility at will..
Norad 10-21-04, 06:16 PM	Out of Monster Manual 3, not very flashy, but has what I like to call "bread and butter": Gnoll, Flind 2 racial HD +6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con +2 Natural armor 60ft. Darkvision +2 LA I love this guy for just the simplicity of his abilities if nothing else, no fat, just stats. Disclaimer: Stuff below is from Savage Species, mentioned for the sake of being complete, but personally, I think SS is probably one of the most unbalanced, overpowered game supplements ever released by WotC and is in desperate need of an overhaul. It isn't just the races, it's the spells, the feats, everything, it's been banned in the game I run, but is allowed in the game I play in currently. The Ritual of Becoming(?) or something like that is just ridiculous, pay 10k XPs and you can add any +4 LA template to your existing character, that's a bargain, to quote Samuel L. from Pulp Fiction, "Sh*t, negro, that's all you had to say!" Anthropomorphic Baleen - mentioned earlier, is insane, I challenge anyone to find a better statline for a +0 LA race. Anthropomorphic Bat - +6 Wisdom, natural flight, the ultimate divine caster race, +0 LA. Feral Template - how this template is +1 LA is beyond me, but if you do a search on these boards you will probably find more builds using this template than you can shake a stick at, which tells you how unbalanced it is. Insectile Template - +2 LA, multiple limbs, tremorsense, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, natural climb, natural armor, he kicks ass. Reptilian Template - +2 LA, natural armor, +2 Str/Con/Wis, natural attacks, and a few other nice abilities.
Rod Howard 10-21-04, 07:17 PM	Krenshars simply rule (from MM).
Aurelius 10-21-04, 09:49 PM	The Petal from MM3, is a tiny flying fey with huge stat bonuses (-8 str, +10 dex, +4 con, +4 Int, +8 cha) and DR 5/Cold iron. all this for the low, low price of +2 LA. i'm not sure, but i think the bonii are good enough a fine sorcerer even with the LA. otherwise, you could always go rogue/invisible blade/master thrower (very small daggers). better at hitting, more survivable (after the first few levels, due to con, AC and DR), better at feinting, has more skill points.
Timespike 10-22-04, 12:13 AM	Some of my personal favorites: Hobgoblin (Monster Manual) (+1) I've always wanted to do a hobgoblin Enforcer (the LN "paladin" variant from dragon 310) Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (+1) (Monster MAnual III) Whisper Gnome (+0) (Races of Stone) Githzerai (+2) (XPH) If you're going to mess with a +2 LA, you can do better than a drow. +6 DEX, man!!! ;) Fey'ri (+2/+3) (Races of Faerun) Shifters (+0) (Eberron) Five levels of weretouched master (tiger or bear) and you're one nasty dude. Mix the bear version with snow tiger berserker from unapproachable east for the best of both worlds.
Snicker-Snack 10-22-04, 12:20 AM	The Black Ethergaunt is also a great monstrous race. It gets a huge boost to int and 17 Wizard Caster levels (total ECL 20 IIRC).
Wearer of Purple 10-22-04, 10:29 AM	I love the troll as a PC race. Regeneration when given to any PC is an invitation for disaster. Although monsters fight for a single encounter, PC’s fight their whole careers. Many fight huge monsters that simply cannot take down the troll. Especially large creatures, because they can’t even make use of the swallow whole ability. Also, PC can buy objects that mitigate (or completely nullify) their weakness to fire and acid. This, coupled with their high Fortitude saves, makes them nigh unkillable with Fort save spells. P.S. There is always the spellblade (added to an amulet of natural weapons) that can get rid of those pesky Charm Monster spells :smirk: .
catharz 10-22-04, 05:32 PM	Volodni (Unaproachable east) are pretty under-rated. They're one of the only humanoid, 1-HD plant races I know of. The LA is +2, very worth if for fighter types. Adu'jas (Dragon 317) are basically the same thing. They have better ability adjustments, (very weak) regeneration, and spell-like abilities but without the piercing resistance and with fire vulnerability. For review, the plant type means immunity to poison, Polymorphing, paralysis, stunning, sleep, mind-affecting effects and critical hits. I think that thise two races are especially suited to being Psychic warriors.