Best path for a Druid? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best path for a Druid? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shovel-Whipped
07-26-04, 05:38 PM I've wanted to creat a lizardman druid for a while, mostly because a.) Lizardman! And b.) dr00d!
Personally, I don't think you can argue with that logic. Anyway, I had things planned except for my feats and skills, and then I realized I had absolutely no idea what archetype I wanted. You know, whether I should try and develop my natural weapons, go the wildshaping melee path, or be the primary divine caster, and the feat trees that accompany each.
Basically, I want to know the general opinion towards what packs the most punch. I think I am going to be the only divine caster in the party, so that's something to take into consideration. Here's what I have to work with:
-I haven't rolled stats yet, but CHA and INT will likely be dump stats, while WIS and STR will be high. DEX/CON might be on the low end also, I think +5 NA makes up for it.
-ECL 15 character, and just about any published material is fair game, my DM has a full library.
-Please remind me which book your suggestions come from, and I'd like to go easy on the templates as I'm already losing caster levels.
Snow Savant
07-26-04, 05:46 PM Are you absolutely, positively sold on being a Lizard Man? That's a 3 level hit on your ECL 15 build (2 racial HD, +1 ECL). I mean, hey, that hit you are taking means you have decided on passing to cast 8th level spells - which totally freaking rule for a Druid. And you are also 4 levels behind instead of 1 from taking the awesome Elemental Wildshape form.

-I haven't rolled stats yet, but CHA and INT will likely be dump stats, while WIS and STR will be high. DEX/CON might be on the low end also, I think +5 NA makes up for it.
You may wanna reverse course. Dump STR/CON/DEX. As low as you can freakin' get them - lower than 8 each if you can do it. Crank WIS ... then INT and CHA. Honestly, you should be wildshaping 24/7. Race for a Druid means nothing at this level. Doesn't matter if you are Human, Lizard Man, or Goblin, you always want to be wildshaped into Dire Apr/Legendary Ape form ... or more appropriately, using Exalted Wildshape and/or Draconic Wildshape, you want to be in *those* forms.

As a Human Druid-15, you can "act" like a lizard man by being in Dragon form all freakin' day long by taking Draconic Wildshape as your 12th level feat (Draconomicon book).
ksbsnowowl
07-26-04, 06:54 PM Also, you can 'be' a lizardman all day if you want at 15th level anyhow. Just use your thousand faces ability to assume the form of one. It won't work in an AMF, but other than that, it's always on. It'll even use your own stats, if you want to waste high rolls on your physical stats.

Another option would be to get the Dragon Wildshape feat [Draconomicon] and become a Silver Dragon. Then use its 'Alternate Form' ability to become a lizardman for 15 hours for each wildshape spent. By doing it this way you gain the physical scores of the lizardman (be that for good[ie- you had low S/D/C] or ill [ie- you wasted your high stats on S/D/C]).

Either way, you gain the lizardman's Natural Armor, Natural Attacks, attack routines, and racial skill bonuses. But, just so you know a Troglodyte is a better 'alter self' form; it has a higher Natural Armor bonus, and it grants you the Multiattack feat.
Snow Savant
07-26-04, 07:02 PM Either way, you gain the lizardman's Natural Armor, Natural Attacks, attack routines, and racial skill bonuses. But, just so you know a Troglodyte is a better 'alter self' form; it has a higher Natural Armor bonus, and it grants you the Multiattack feat. The Trog-like humanoid called the Tren now trumps the Trog for Alter Self / ATF ... similar mechanics except the Tren gets a +8 Natty Armor bonus. See the Serpent Kingdoms book just out this month.
ksbsnowowl
07-26-04, 09:46 PM Yeah, I've seen it; I was just sticking to core for the purposes of this thread.

Do you have the Serpent Kingdoms book, Snow? I've glanced through it, and couldn't decide how useful it would be, unless you plan or running a yuan-ti campaign or some such, of course.
Shovel-Whipped
07-27-04, 03:30 PM Well, thanks for the advice, I guess lizardmen aren't great druids after all, even though it's their favored class.
I read through a lot of the Serpent Kingdoms book recently, and I think it's of pretty exclusive value. There are a few new monsters/spells/magic items, but most of the material will be of greatest value to anyone playing or running a yuan-ti(or related race) campaign. Of course, some of the more exclusive facets could be tweaked a little.
Zubon
07-27-04, 03:56 PM Originally posted by Shovel-Whipped
I guess lizardmen aren't great druids after all, even though it's their favored class.
I just want to point out that Sorcerer is the favored class for a kobold, but you do not see too many optimized kobold spellcasters on the CO boards. While sometimes helpful in builds, the favored class is rarely a significant factor in optimized design (exception: the Human/Half-Elf "any" favored is used a lot).
RabidWeasel
07-27-04, 05:58 PM If you want that lizardfolk flavour and a powerful race choice for druid, I'd suggest the anthromorphic lizard race from Savage Species. The +4 wisdom makes it an excellent divine spellcaster and the other statistic modifiers don't make too much difference since you can use wildshape; (although the charisma hit is nasty) and of course, it has no racial hit dice or level adjustment which makes it caster-friendly. Its favoured class is druid, too ;)
eudas
07-27-04, 06:46 PM despite it being a less-than-optimal idea mechanically, i still think that the lizardman druid with an alligator animal companion from the DMG NPC section is still a friggin' cool concept. :)

eudas
Snow Savant
07-27-04, 07:50 PM despite it being a less-than-optimal idea mechanically, i still think that the lizardman druid with an alligator animal companion from the DMG NPC section is still a friggin' cool concept. I'm not sure you understand, Eudas. At his 15th level of play,A Thousand Faces will let a human Druid-15 *be* a Lizard-Man. Or an uber-Lizard-Man for that matter (via Draconic Polymorph). Without the fuss of losing a whopping 3 spellcaster levels or 3 Wildshape progression levels.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
Stirgar
07-27-04, 11:32 PM Originally posted by Snow Savant
I'm not sure you understand, Eudas. At his 15th level of play,A Thousand Faces will let a human Druid-15 *be* a Lizard-Man. Or an uber-Lizard-Man for that matter (via Draconic Polymorph). Without the fuss of losing a whopping 3 spellcaster levels or 3 Wildshape progression levels.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:

On any other board I would've rambled on about roleplaying and whatever and gone on to say that it still is a great concept, which it is. But this is the CO board and from that standpoint, I have to agree with you. I still think human (even though mine isn't) is the best druid race if only because there are just way too many good feats for a druid. Wildshape also make stats less important, though there are some good +wis races out there.

As many have pointed out, STR and DEX shouldn't be on top of your list, though you should be cautious... You probably don't want to be in a bad spot if that wildshape fails.

I'm surprised of the popularity of dragon wildshape. I've been in awe of this feat ever since I got my hand on the draconomicon yet many people here have bashed it. Guess everyone's entitles to their opinions. I like it because if you can somehow gain extensive knowledge on dragons (that is the tricky part), then you'll have access to tons of great abilities that the draconomicon dragons gives, even when limited to medium size. Personal favs of mine are the shadow (good AC, neg lvl breath/immunity, shadow blend) , rust (rusting bite, good burrow speed), tarterian(Force resistance, Freedom of movement), Ethereal (etheral vision) ...

Anyway, if you browse around you'll find lots of nice druid builds all of which are probably tenfold better than the ones I come up with.

Most of all enjoy your druid. I find it to be a *very* versatile and powerful class if you use your abilities right, even if you do not min/max him/her. If you do not wish to have an archetype character then druid probably is your best bet. He can do some roguish stuff with wildshape, melee well, cast offense and defensive spells and be a great summoner of elementals ;) As a RP perk I like to talk to my elementals in their native tongue so I spend some languages there.
RaKhan
07-27-04, 11:43 PM Originally posted by Stirgar
I'm surprised of the popularity of dragon wildshape. I've been in awe of this feat ever since I got my hand on the draconomicon yet many people here have bashed it. Guess everyone's entitles to their opinions. I like it because if you can somehow gain extensive knowledge on dragons (that is the tricky part), then you'll have access to tons of great abilities that the draconomicon dragons gives, even when limited to medium size. Personal favs of mine are the shadow (good AC, neg lvl breath/immunity, shadow blend) , rust (rusting bite, good burrow speed), tarterian(Force resistance, Freedom of movement), Ethereal (etheral vision) ...

The only time where the dragon wildshape feat from the Draconomicon becomes not as useful is if your druid is playing in a campaign that either will or is already in epic levels. In which case the Dragon Wildshape epic feat is phenominally better, giving you access to all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of whichever dragon you choose to wildshape into. Natural spell is useful too, but can be worthless in epic levels when you can purchase Automatic Silent Spell 3 times to cover all spell slots from 0 through 9 (you could purchase it again and get a use out of it if you also purchased the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity any number of times).
Thannin
07-28-04, 12:47 AM I personally like the druid of Mielikki with the wounding weapons in legendary ape form. With animal growth, natures favor, and natures avatar on you, you can wreck face compared to any dragon wildshape.
ksbsnowowl
07-28-04, 02:42 AM Originally posted by RaKhan
The only time where the dragon wildshape feat from the Draconomicon becomes not as useful is if your druid is playing in a campaign that either will or is already in epic levels. In which case the Dragon Wildshape epic feat is phenominally better, giving you access to all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of whichever dragon you choose to wildshape into. Although I do realize you didn't say Dragon Wildshape [non-epic] was useless in epic levels, I thought I would point out that the epic Dragon Wildshape feat only allows you to assume the forms of the 5 metalic and 5 chromatic dragons from the MM. The non-epic Dragon Wildshape will always give you a variety and versatility the epic version cannot.
Stirgar
07-28-04, 10:01 AM Originally posted by ksbsnowowl
Although I do realize you didn't say Dragon Wildshape [non-epic] was useless in epic levels, I thought I would point out that the epic Dragon Wildshape feat only allows you to assume the forms of the 5 metalic and 5 chromatic dragons from the MM. The non-epic Dragon Wildshape will always give you a variety and versatility the epic version cannot.

Aye, I was about to point that out myself, though I'm not bashing on the epic feat either as I think from a roleplay and optimisation standpoint it is quite good.

I play my druid in a swiss-army-knife fashion. I like to be the one who gets out of impossible situations and that is why I value the draconomicon Dragon wildshape. There are just too many different abilities I can get my hands on with that feat. None may be as good as the blink of exhalted wildshape but I still prefer dragon wildshape. But that is my play style.

For me, the largest drawback of dragon wildshape is that I can't use animal growth/nature's favor whatever chain... But with fast wildshape and quick change(next feat I'm getting), I do change forms often.
Snow Savant
07-28-04, 12:59 PM Originally posted by Thannin
I personally like the druid of Mielikki with the wounding weapons in legendary ape form. With animal growth, natures favor, and natures avatar on you, you can wreck face compared to any dragon wildshape.
If you first wildshape into a Legendary Ape, then a Young Adult Shadow Dragon, your creature type descriptor is still active as [Animal] even though you are now in Dragon form. This is due to your primary wildshape stacked under your current wildshape - the primary will cease once its duration runs out. So as a Young Adult Shadow Dragon, you can still cast AG, NF, and NA on yourself ... while enjoying a +19 Natural Armor bonus, 80' Speed, 150' Flying Speed, Shadow Blend (Su), a 2 Level Loss Breath Weapon, SR-20, & DR 5/Magic. All of which totally rocks.
Potlok
07-28-04, 02:31 PM Wow, didn't know that. Where can I find the rules for Animal Type being in draconic shape?

Thanks in advance
Thannin
07-28-04, 03:06 PM Originally posted by Snow Savant
If you first wildshape into a Legendary Ape, then a Young Adult Shadow Dragon, your creature type descriptor is still active as [Animal] even though you are now in Dragon form. This is due to your primary wildshape stacked under your current wildshape - the primary will cease once its duration runs out. So as a Young Adult Shadow Dragon, you can still cast AG, NF, and NA on yourself ... while enjoying a +19 Natural Armor bonus, 80' Speed, 150' Flying Speed, Shadow Blend (Su), a 2 Level Loss Breath Weapon, SR-20, & DR 5/Magic. All of which totally rocks.
Ah ya, Im fairly new with drood 101, thanks snow ;), I knew i forgot something

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shovel-Whipped 07-26-04, 05:38 PM	I've wanted to creat a lizardman druid for a while, mostly because a.) Lizardman! And b.) dr00d! Personally, I don't think you can argue with that logic. Anyway, I had things planned except for my feats and skills, and then I realized I had absolutely no idea what archetype I wanted. You know, whether I should try and develop my natural weapons, go the wildshaping melee path, or be the primary divine caster, and the feat trees that accompany each. Basically, I want to know the general opinion towards what packs the most punch. I think I am going to be the only divine caster in the party, so that's something to take into consideration. Here's what I have to work with: -I haven't rolled stats yet, but CHA and INT will likely be dump stats, while WIS and STR will be high. DEX/CON might be on the low end also, I think +5 NA makes up for it. -ECL 15 character, and just about any published material is fair game, my DM has a full library. -Please remind me which book your suggestions come from, and I'd like to go easy on the templates as I'm already losing caster levels.
Snow Savant 07-26-04, 05:46 PM	Are you absolutely, positively sold on being a Lizard Man? That's a 3 level hit on your ECL 15 build (2 racial HD, +1 ECL). I mean, hey, that hit you are taking means you have decided on passing to cast 8th level spells - which totally freaking rule for a Druid. And you are also 4 levels behind instead of 1 from taking the awesome Elemental Wildshape form. -I haven't rolled stats yet, but CHA and INT will likely be dump stats, while WIS and STR will be high. DEX/CON might be on the low end also, I think +5 NA makes up for it. You may wanna reverse course. Dump STR/CON/DEX. As low as you can freakin' get them - lower than 8 each if you can do it. Crank WIS ... then INT and CHA. Honestly, you should be wildshaping 24/7. Race for a Druid means nothing at this level. Doesn't matter if you are Human, Lizard Man, or Goblin, you always want to be wildshaped into Dire Apr/Legendary Ape form ... or more appropriately, using Exalted Wildshape and/or Draconic Wildshape, you want to be in those forms. As a Human Druid-15, you can "act" like a lizard man by being in Dragon form all freakin' day long by taking Draconic Wildshape as your 12th level feat (Draconomicon book).
ksbsnowowl 07-26-04, 06:54 PM	Also, you can 'be' a lizardman all day if you want at 15th level anyhow. Just use your thousand faces ability to assume the form of one. It won't work in an AMF, but other than that, it's always on. It'll even use your own stats, if you want to waste high rolls on your physical stats. Another option would be to get the Dragon Wildshape feat [Draconomicon] and become a Silver Dragon. Then use its 'Alternate Form' ability to become a lizardman for 15 hours for each wildshape spent. By doing it this way you gain the physical scores of the lizardman (be that for good[ie- you had low S/D/C] or ill [ie- you wasted your high stats on S/D/C]). Either way, you gain the lizardman's Natural Armor, Natural Attacks, attack routines, and racial skill bonuses. But, just so you know a Troglodyte is a better 'alter self' form; it has a higher Natural Armor bonus, and it grants you the Multiattack feat.
Snow Savant 07-26-04, 07:02 PM	Either way, you gain the lizardman's Natural Armor, Natural Attacks, attack routines, and racial skill bonuses. But, just so you know a Troglodyte is a better 'alter self' form; it has a higher Natural Armor bonus, and it grants you the Multiattack feat. The Trog-like humanoid called the Tren now trumps the Trog for Alter Self / ATF ... similar mechanics except the Tren gets a +8 Natty Armor bonus. See the Serpent Kingdoms book just out this month.
ksbsnowowl 07-26-04, 09:46 PM	Yeah, I've seen it; I was just sticking to core for the purposes of this thread. Do you have the Serpent Kingdoms book, Snow? I've glanced through it, and couldn't decide how useful it would be, unless you plan or running a yuan-ti campaign or some such, of course.
Shovel-Whipped 07-27-04, 03:30 PM	Well, thanks for the advice, I guess lizardmen aren't great druids after all, even though it's their favored class. I read through a lot of the Serpent Kingdoms book recently, and I think it's of pretty exclusive value. There are a few new monsters/spells/magic items, but most of the material will be of greatest value to anyone playing or running a yuan-ti(or related race) campaign. Of course, some of the more exclusive facets could be tweaked a little.
Zubon 07-27-04, 03:56 PM	Originally posted by Shovel-Whipped I guess lizardmen aren't great druids after all, even though it's their favored class. I just want to point out that Sorcerer is the favored class for a kobold, but you do not see too many optimized kobold spellcasters on the CO boards. While sometimes helpful in builds, the favored class is rarely a significant factor in optimized design (exception: the Human/Half-Elf "any" favored is used a lot).
RabidWeasel 07-27-04, 05:58 PM	If you want that lizardfolk flavour and a powerful race choice for druid, I'd suggest the anthromorphic lizard race from Savage Species. The +4 wisdom makes it an excellent divine spellcaster and the other statistic modifiers don't make too much difference since you can use wildshape; (although the charisma hit is nasty) and of course, it has no racial hit dice or level adjustment which makes it caster-friendly. Its favoured class is druid, too ;)
eudas 07-27-04, 06:46 PM	despite it being a less-than-optimal idea mechanically, i still think that the lizardman druid with an alligator animal companion from the DMG NPC section is still a friggin' cool concept. :) eudas
Snow Savant 07-27-04, 07:50 PM	despite it being a less-than-optimal idea mechanically, i still think that the lizardman druid with an alligator animal companion from the DMG NPC section is still a friggin' cool concept. I'm not sure you understand, Eudas. At his 15th level of play,A Thousand Faces will let a human Druid-15 be a Lizard-Man. Or an uber-Lizard-Man for that matter (via Draconic Polymorph). Without the fuss of losing a whopping 3 spellcaster levels or 3 Wildshape progression levels. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Stirgar 07-27-04, 11:32 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant I'm not sure you understand, Eudas. At his 15th level of play,A Thousand Faces will let a human Druid-15 be a Lizard-Man. Or an uber-Lizard-Man for that matter (via Draconic Polymorph). Without the fuss of losing a whopping 3 spellcaster levels or 3 Wildshape progression levels. XO, Snow :cloud9: On any other board I would've rambled on about roleplaying and whatever and gone on to say that it still is a great concept, which it is. But this is the CO board and from that standpoint, I have to agree with you. I still think human (even though mine isn't) is the best druid race if only because there are just way too many good feats for a druid. Wildshape also make stats less important, though there are some good +wis races out there. As many have pointed out, STR and DEX shouldn't be on top of your list, though you should be cautious... You probably don't want to be in a bad spot if that wildshape fails. I'm surprised of the popularity of dragon wildshape. I've been in awe of this feat ever since I got my hand on the draconomicon yet many people here have bashed it. Guess everyone's entitles to their opinions. I like it because if you can somehow gain extensive knowledge on dragons (that is the tricky part), then you'll have access to tons of great abilities that the draconomicon dragons gives, even when limited to medium size. Personal favs of mine are the shadow (good AC, neg lvl breath/immunity, shadow blend) , rust (rusting bite, good burrow speed), tarterian(Force resistance, Freedom of movement), Ethereal (etheral vision) ... Anyway, if you browse around you'll find lots of nice druid builds all of which are probably tenfold better than the ones I come up with. Most of all enjoy your druid. I find it to be a very versatile and powerful class if you use your abilities right, even if you do not min/max him/her. If you do not wish to have an archetype character then druid probably is your best bet. He can do some roguish stuff with wildshape, melee well, cast offense and defensive spells and be a great summoner of elementals ;) As a RP perk I like to talk to my elementals in their native tongue so I spend some languages there.
RaKhan 07-27-04, 11:43 PM	Originally posted by Stirgar I'm surprised of the popularity of dragon wildshape. I've been in awe of this feat ever since I got my hand on the draconomicon yet many people here have bashed it. Guess everyone's entitles to their opinions. I like it because if you can somehow gain extensive knowledge on dragons (that is the tricky part), then you'll have access to tons of great abilities that the draconomicon dragons gives, even when limited to medium size. Personal favs of mine are the shadow (good AC, neg lvl breath/immunity, shadow blend) , rust (rusting bite, good burrow speed), tarterian(Force resistance, Freedom of movement), Ethereal (etheral vision) ... The only time where the dragon wildshape feat from the Draconomicon becomes not as useful is if your druid is playing in a campaign that either will or is already in epic levels. In which case the Dragon Wildshape epic feat is phenominally better, giving you access to all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of whichever dragon you choose to wildshape into. Natural spell is useful too, but can be worthless in epic levels when you can purchase Automatic Silent Spell 3 times to cover all spell slots from 0 through 9 (you could purchase it again and get a use out of it if you also purchased the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity any number of times).
Thannin 07-28-04, 12:47 AM	I personally like the druid of Mielikki with the wounding weapons in legendary ape form. With animal growth, natures favor, and natures avatar on you, you can wreck face compared to any dragon wildshape.
ksbsnowowl 07-28-04, 02:42 AM	Originally posted by RaKhan The only time where the dragon wildshape feat from the Draconomicon becomes not as useful is if your druid is playing in a campaign that either will or is already in epic levels. In which case the Dragon Wildshape epic feat is phenominally better, giving you access to all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of whichever dragon you choose to wildshape into. Although I do realize you didn't say Dragon Wildshape [non-epic] was useless in epic levels, I thought I would point out that the epic Dragon Wildshape feat only allows you to assume the forms of the 5 metalic and 5 chromatic dragons from the MM. The non-epic Dragon Wildshape will always give you a variety and versatility the epic version cannot.
Stirgar 07-28-04, 10:01 AM	Originally posted by ksbsnowowl Although I do realize you didn't say Dragon Wildshape [non-epic] was useless in epic levels, I thought I would point out that the epic Dragon Wildshape feat only allows you to assume the forms of the 5 metalic and 5 chromatic dragons from the MM. The non-epic Dragon Wildshape will always give you a variety and versatility the epic version cannot. Aye, I was about to point that out myself, though I'm not bashing on the epic feat either as I think from a roleplay and optimisation standpoint it is quite good. I play my druid in a swiss-army-knife fashion. I like to be the one who gets out of impossible situations and that is why I value the draconomicon Dragon wildshape. There are just too many different abilities I can get my hands on with that feat. None may be as good as the blink of exhalted wildshape but I still prefer dragon wildshape. But that is my play style. For me, the largest drawback of dragon wildshape is that I can't use animal growth/nature's favor whatever chain... But with fast wildshape and quick change(next feat I'm getting), I do change forms often.
Snow Savant 07-28-04, 12:59 PM	Originally posted by Thannin I personally like the druid of Mielikki with the wounding weapons in legendary ape form. With animal growth, natures favor, and natures avatar on you, you can wreck face compared to any dragon wildshape. If you first wildshape into a Legendary Ape, then a Young Adult Shadow Dragon, your creature type descriptor is still active as [Animal] even though you are now in Dragon form. This is due to your primary wildshape stacked under your current wildshape - the primary will cease once its duration runs out. So as a Young Adult Shadow Dragon, you can still cast AG, NF, and NA on yourself ... while enjoying a +19 Natural Armor bonus, 80' Speed, 150' Flying Speed, Shadow Blend (Su), a 2 Level Loss Breath Weapon, SR-20, & DR 5/Magic. All of which totally rocks.
Potlok 07-28-04, 02:31 PM	Wow, didn't know that. Where can I find the rules for Animal Type being in draconic shape? Thanks in advance
Thannin 07-28-04, 03:06 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant If you first wildshape into a Legendary Ape, then a Young Adult Shadow Dragon, your creature type descriptor is still active as [Animal] even though you are now in Dragon form. This is due to your primary wildshape stacked under your current wildshape - the primary will cease once its duration runs out. So as a Young Adult Shadow Dragon, you can still cast AG, NF, and NA on yourself ... while enjoying a +19 Natural Armor bonus, 80' Speed, 150' Flying Speed, Shadow Blend (Su), a 2 Level Loss Breath Weapon, SR-20, & DR 5/Magic. All of which totally rocks. Ah ya, Im fairly new with drood 101, thanks snow ;), I knew i forgot something