Best PrC for a sorcerer... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best PrC for a sorcerer... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheVatican
08-24-05, 11:31 AM I was looking at the PrC's and it looks like a sorcerer would do just as good with the Incatrix 10 Archmage 5 PrC's as a mage does. Is that right? Am I not looking at the classes correctly?

What are your favortire builds and why?
Ithandor
08-24-05, 12:15 PM Sacred Exorcist from Complete Divine is very nice. Strictly better than Sorceror in every way. Increased HD, BAB, Turn Undead (Hooray for Divine Feats!) and other tasty bonuses.

Ithandor
Abulafia
08-24-05, 12:36 PM Generally, good PrC's for sorcerers are the same as good PrC's for wizards, with a few caveats.

A sorcerer has fewer feats than a wizard, and gets higher spells a level later. For these reasons, PrC's with multiple feat requirements or spell-level requirements are harder for sorcerers to enter. For instance, a sorcerer has to be level 6 before s/he can become an Incantator/trix.

Similarly, because a sorcerer is already a level behind in spell progression, PrC's that lose spell levels are a bad idea for primary-caster sorcerer builds -- even more so than for wizards.

Any PrC that grants knowledge or use of additional spells is a boon to sorcerers. The Exalted Arcanist from BoED and the Mage of the Arcane Order from Complete Arcane are examples.

Be sure to check the FAQs for good sorcerer builds.
jameswilliamogle
08-24-05, 02:11 PM don't take 5 levels of archmage; take 2-3. i personally dislike the archmage for sorcerers: 3 feat req's with little synergy to other prc's. some good prc's w/ no feat requirements: Fatespinner, Mindbender. a good prc for all sorc's to consider: Mage of the Arcane Order, for at least 2 levels. sorc 6, inc 10, MotAO 2, either Fatespinner 2 or Exalted Exorcist 1 with Mindbender 1 makes for a good metamagic focused sorc build, and has a few feat synergies (make sure to get Exalted Exorcist before using up all your metamagic bonus feats to get divine metamagic). pick up spell preparation to quicken your spells (sucks, but that's the way it is); some DM's might rule spell prep a metamagic feat. if you are going to focus on metamagic, make sure to pick up leadership early on to get a "standard" wizard - the table in the DMG has them listed as having mostly item creation feats. hope this helps.
Kurama Youko
08-24-05, 04:17 PM Mage of the Arcane Order, 4 levels minimum in my opinion, and can be accessed by 5th lv by a sorc. Also adds spontaneous versitility.

Incanatatrix 10, all around good for a sorcerer.

Wearer of Purple, good for 9 lvs with increased hit dice, synergizes with charisma based characters better than any other prestige class, nets you to item creation feats which is great with the 5th lv incanatrix ability. :)

Archmage, depends on how many kick butt abilities you want, since you have so many spell slots per day it hurts you alot less than other arcane spellcasters. Favorable abilities, Master of Counterspelling, Master of Shaping and Elemental Mastery

Sacred Arcanist, 3 level prestige class that adds alot of powerful spells to your spells known, good for a finishing prestige class as oppose to a starting one. (best taken at lv 18-20)
jameswilliamogle
08-24-05, 04:40 PM where is wearer of purple and sacred arcanist?
Kurama Youko
08-24-05, 05:04 PM Wearer of Purple can be found inside Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons, its a prestige class meant for evil spellcasters, not to heavy on the feat requirement and doesn't have a spell level requirement. (I love the Frightful Presence, and Paraylzing Touch and Paraylzing Gaze abilities.:))

Sacred Arcanist can be found in the Book of Exalted Deeds, the 3rd lv ability adds all the of Sanctifed spells that usually only prepared spellcasters can use on your known spell-list. :) not bad really.
Kaiberon
08-24-05, 05:35 PM Sand shaper from sandstorm gives you a huge number of extra spells known, many of them kick some ass.
carnivore
08-24-05, 05:58 PM my favorite:

Human

Sorceror 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Sandshaper 1/ incantatrix 10

or for more spells known:

Sorceror 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Sandshaper 1/ incantatrix 5/ Exalted Arcanist 5

for fun with bardic music:

Elf
Sorceror 5/ Spellsinger 5/ Mage of the Arcane order 7/ sandshaper 1/ Archmage 3

:D
ArayanAraya
08-24-05, 06:13 PM In my BoED, Exalted Arcanist is a 5 lvl Prc. And the sanctify ability is 5th lvl.
Eidolon Faer
08-24-05, 06:22 PM Mage of the Arcane Order is generally agreed to be an excellent one, and if you get yourself Spell Storing items and Rings of Theurgy it becomes brutal.

If you're going to bother with Archmage at all, max out Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil first. The IotSV feat requirements are all on your way to Archmage, and it's a pretty beefy PrC in its' own right.

There's a cold-based caster (Frostmage I think) from the Frostburn book that's also pretty nice for a Sorcerer.

Otherwise, if you're looking to shed the robes of the Pure Caster, there's the Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Adventurer, which makes Enlightened Fist strikingly attractive to the Gish. Especially given the Draconic feats from Complete Arcane.
ninjarabbit
08-24-05, 06:33 PM I think 4 levels of fatespinner are almost a must for any sorcerer. It costs almost nothing to get into, it raises your DCs and forces a foe to reroll, and gives you a reroll
canadianguy
08-24-05, 08:51 PM How do people feel about a 2-3 level dip in harper mage it gives two of the pre req's for arch mage with minimal feat requirments and a little cha synergy with extend.
jameswilliamogle
08-24-05, 09:38 PM How do people feel about a 2-3 level dip in harper mage it gives two of the pre req's for arch mage with minimal feat requirments and a little cha synergy with extend.i considered it once, and for some reason decided the feat / level cost was too high... you spend 2 feats (education, get extend from inc bonus feat, alertness from familiar) to gain another feat (skill foci: spellcraft) 2 levels later, and you get bardic knowledge and a skill foci knowledge, but you lose 2 potential levels of another class...

it seemed like you could do a 2 level dip into MotAO while spending 1 feat (coop metamagic, which you can get from being an incanatrix, and assuming the inc's coop sp ability doesn't meet the prereq, which it very well might) and get much better abilities.

this is doubly true for a sorcerer, since they have to wait an additional level for spellcasting prereq's.

In my opinion: Iot7V is probably the 2nd best choice after an incanatrix; both require taking them to the terminal level to be done properly (thus it isn't wise to just take a few levels of Iot7V). MotAO is probably the best 2ndary prc, and then I rank Archmage, Fatespinner, and 1 lev Mindbender equal for sorcerers, but Arch higher for wizards (mainly b/c they have less adaptability).
RadicalTaoist
08-24-05, 09:56 PM Although it costs a level, Recaster from Races of Eberron is nice for changeling sorcerors.

I can't believe no one's mentioned Sacred Exorcist yet. AMAZING gish prc for sorcs.
ninjarabbit
08-24-05, 10:15 PM I can't believe no one's mentioned Sacred Exorcist yet. AMAZING gish prc for sorcs.

True but the skill requirements are a pain for a sorcerer, even with education.
thorian
08-24-05, 10:17 PM I can't believe no one's mentioned Sacred Exorcist yet. AMAZING gish prc for sorcs.
It was the first PrC mentioned! ;)

I like Shadowcraft Mage [RoS], Shadowcrafter [Und], Shadow Adept [PGtF] for a flavorful but powerful gnome sorcerer.
K
08-24-05, 11:19 PM Here are some of the lesser known choices:

SandShaper:
Upshot: Few prereqs, adds 43 Spells Known from a bottom-level heavy set list.
Downshot: Lose a caster level.

Arachnomancer:
Upshot: Adds 12 spells to your list. Few prereqs.
Downshot: Must be evil and have a tacky scar tattoo on your face. Only a one level dip is advantageous.

Combat Medic
Upshot: Eventually you get Evasion and the ability to cast Heal spontaneously.
Downshot: Must spend an extra feat to get into it(Arcane Disciple[Healing Domain]) and a spell Known must be Cure Light Wounds.

Chameleon
Upshot: With 2 levels of this class, you can take your "floating" feat and each day choose a different Extra Spell Known.
Downshot: Lose two caster levels. Not worth getting more than 2 levels.

Dragonslayer
Upshot: A one level dip will get you immunity to fear, which is nice.
Downshot: Probably not worth the feat requirements (Iron Will and Dodge). Not worth going past one level.

Spellguard of Silverymoon
Upshot: Adds free metamagic feats and other neat stuff
Downshot: Must play in Faerun and/or get DMs approval.

Winterhaunt of Iborighu
Upshot: Damage bonuses to cold damage spells, free Piercing Cold on all cold spells
Downshot: Tough prereqs, must be evil, and must take a !st level divine caster class(so thats a one level caster hit for your Sorcerer spells).

Frost Mage
Upshot: Few prereqs, adds three good set spells known and a good feat, and some natty armor.
Downshot: You look silly.
runestar
08-25-05, 07:31 AM My only gripe with sorc taking incantatrix is that the spellcraft-based abilities are slightly weaker for a sorc, since a sorc will always have lower int than a wiz, and it is likely that stat will stagnate for a fair period of time until the player is willing to burn good gold for a tome of intellect+5+headband of intellect+6.
TheVatican
08-25-05, 11:32 AM Thanks a lot guys, those were very helpful responses. I was reading some of the abilities the Maof the arcane order get, it looks like the sorcerer will not get those benefits because it casts spontaneusly. I will have ot review later tonight so that I can be more specific, but I go the impression that the calss was not made for a sorcerer. I think it had something to do with the spell pool.

Unless I am missing an errata or something.

But, thanks guys, the information was very helpful.
Erudite
08-25-05, 12:21 PM Take the feat Arcane Preparation (PGtF). Off the top of my head, I do not know if it was included in CA. It allows a sorcerer to prepare spells like a wizard. Useless if you have access to the Simbul's series, but nice for MotAO.
MustafaHazaraKhan
08-25-05, 06:56 PM Wild Mage is a pretty good dip for any arcane caster with a feat or two to spare. It permanently lowers your caster level by 3 but increases the caster level of every spell you cast by 1d6. Take Practised Spellcaster to offset the caster level loss and it becomes a highly worthwhile 1-level dip.

This has several useful effects. A few more damage dice for fireball or disintegrate are always welcome, as is hitting the polymorph HD cap almost straight away. The boosted caster level also helps punch through spell resistance thus reducing the need for Spell Penetration and mitigating the cost of the prerequisite feats.
Snow Savant
08-25-05, 08:43 PM Nobody seems to be focusing on "Skill" Sorcerors. Your CHA will be crazy-high. Your INT will be at least respectable for stuff like Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft.

So take 14 levels of 4 Skills/Level PrC's that grant you access to good CHA skills like Bluff, UMD, Diplomacy, etc.

We're talking about classes like Harper Mage, Master Harper, etc. All of which also have CHA-friendly class abilities (like HM's "Charisma Extend per Day" ability).

In the process, you'll still maintain 20 SC levels in the 20 level build. And you can actually do stuff effectively outside of being an Artillerist or Battlefield Control Mage.
Erudite
08-25-05, 08:54 PM A good point, so I am going to mention Harper Paragon again. Good skills, bardic knowledge, exalted animal companion, d10 hit die, cleric BAB, smite evil. Harper Mage/Harper Paragon is a nice combination.
tiercel
08-25-05, 09:35 PM If you can get your hands on Knowledge (Religion) somehow, Divine Oracle is not shabby (better hit die, full spellcasting progression, "evasion" like ability) -- but it depends if you want a sorcerer that has some focus on divinations. Probably a stronger choice for wizards than sorcerers (not just because it's easier to get into).
Quale
08-25-05, 10:15 PM To be blunt, given your set of books, there are only 4 PrCs I would bother with for a full caster: incantatrix, fatespinner, initiate of the sevenfold veil, and archmage. Incantatrix is by far the strongest, and I recommend that every arcane caster take at least 5 levels whenever that PrC is allowed. - Iaimeki

And I agree. At least with the first part.
Mage of the Arcane Order is not as good as it may first seem. After you're done staring yourself blind on all the options you think you're gonna get, you realize that the limitations are severe and if you take several levels in this class, at some point you're gonna ask yourself if you're focusing on your characters strength or really just pay a hefty price in order to try and limit it's weaknesses.

Exalted Arcanist is only a so so PrC. If you really consider this class I think you will find that the exalted path doesn't really offer you that much as a sorcerer compared to the feature heavy PrC's, especially in the long run. This has to do with feat availability and spell selection versus the insane features of IE the Incantatrix.

Last, I was initially intrigued by the War Weaver from Heroes of Battle. I haven't studied it carefully enough yet to recommend it, and I suspect it's a better wizard PrC, but check it out anyway if you can access the book.

Sincerely,
Erudite
08-25-05, 10:15 PM Without checking my books at the moment, try looking up Harper Mage. I believe it gives a Skill Focus.
obrysii
08-25-05, 10:17 PM Sand Shaper is pretty nifty.

Lots of bonus spells known.
The Rizz
08-26-05, 02:40 PM If the Dragonlance setting books are available, I would suggest the Academy Sorcerer and War Mage PrCs. (Both in the Age of Mortals book.)

Both classes have easy entry requirements, and give significant benefits.

Academy Sorcerer is good for just about any sorcerer. It gives you a nice benefit at the first level (there are several options to choose from), and even includes UMD on its class list. If you're going for a PrC with a requirement of level 3 spells, this class is an excellent dip while you're making your way up to that requirement.

War Mage (not to be confused with the CArc/MiniHB Warmage) is the ultimate in blaster-oriented PrCs. Armored spellcasting, add your CHA modifier as a morale bonus to allies' AC, free metamagic feats, increased damage per die, and good fortitude saves make this 5-level class a complete no-brainer for any arcane spellcaster with an interest in offensive spells.
TheVatican
08-26-05, 05:19 PM I looked on the board thread ( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2798433 ) that has all the PrC's mentioned in it and it does not mention the WarMage. Is it posted somewhere else so that I can look at it more closely?
The Rizz
08-27-05, 04:26 AM I looked on the board thread ( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2798433 ) that has all the PrC's mentioned in it and it does not mention the WarMage. Is it posted somewhere else so that I can look at it more closely?War Mage appears in the Dragonlance setting book Age of Mortals.

While the Dragonlace Campaign Setting was released by Wizards, none of the supplemental books have been - they have been released by Sovereign Press. As such, you'll not find it in that list, since it appears to be WotC material only.

However, while not officially WotC material, many DMs consider them close enough, since; 1) they are officially licensed by WotC, and 2) they are written by the same authors of the WotC campaign setting book.

As for finding it online somewhere, I beleive you're out of luck. The official product site does not have the War Mage as an excerpt, and finding it posted anywhere else would most probably be copyright infringement, so...

If you want to look it over, the best suggestion I can offer is to hit your local gaming shop or a bookstore with a good gaming section. If you like the book, you can even buy it. (If your DM will allow the Dragonlance books, I do suggest you pick this one up - I have found it to be better than most FR & Eberron expansions.)
Count Grim
08-27-05, 07:07 AM I always liked the Elemental Savant (Air). Spell progression is normal except for the 10th level, but then you become an Air Elemental and it's all worth it.

Pro's: Immunity to stunning and crits, plus a Movement rate of 100 (Fly/ Perfect) that let's you rain down spells and ranged attacks. Plus, you happen to get Spring Attack you can be deadly with touch spells and/ or melee weapons as well (i.e. move in strike and fly straight up).

Con's: Gotta' know what you're doing with the magic, immediate benefits are okay, but the real payoff is at the end. I really prefer wizards, but with a wizards spell selection this class is not really necessary (just fun). Sorcerers tend to get specialized in certain types of spells (combat-wise) so the Air Savant is a better fit.
dokesa
08-27-05, 09:15 AM Elemental Savants don't advance their spell progression on fifth level either.
Kurama Youko
08-27-05, 09:20 AM i think count grim is remenesing about the 3.0 version of Elemental Savant. :)
Count Grim
08-27-05, 04:15 PM Ah, too true, I missed that. Haven't actually played one since 3.0 and missed that detail in the 3.5 table. Still, spellcasters are my specialty, the difference between the 15th level character needed to complete the class and the 13th level caster one ends up with is really only defined by the player. As I said before, you gotta' know the magic to get there...becoming an air elemental, a definite benefit; being able to kill a longtime enemy after only an initiative roll and no saving throws, priceless... ;)
Nate Jones
08-27-05, 04:34 PM Still, the fact that a majority of all your damage spells will have lightning damage is a drawback not to be overlooked.
Sentient
08-27-05, 06:25 PM Still, the fact that a majority of all your damage spells will have lightning damage is a drawback not to be overlooked.
Most damage spells suck. 100ft Natural flight speed is not to be overlooked.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheVatican 08-24-05, 11:31 AM	I was looking at the PrC's and it looks like a sorcerer would do just as good with the Incatrix 10 Archmage 5 PrC's as a mage does. Is that right? Am I not looking at the classes correctly? What are your favortire builds and why?
Ithandor 08-24-05, 12:15 PM	Sacred Exorcist from Complete Divine is very nice. Strictly better than Sorceror in every way. Increased HD, BAB, Turn Undead (Hooray for Divine Feats!) and other tasty bonuses. Ithandor
Abulafia 08-24-05, 12:36 PM	Generally, good PrC's for sorcerers are the same as good PrC's for wizards, with a few caveats. A sorcerer has fewer feats than a wizard, and gets higher spells a level later. For these reasons, PrC's with multiple feat requirements or spell-level requirements are harder for sorcerers to enter. For instance, a sorcerer has to be level 6 before s/he can become an Incantator/trix. Similarly, because a sorcerer is already a level behind in spell progression, PrC's that lose spell levels are a bad idea for primary-caster sorcerer builds -- even more so than for wizards. Any PrC that grants knowledge or use of additional spells is a boon to sorcerers. The Exalted Arcanist from BoED and the Mage of the Arcane Order from Complete Arcane are examples. Be sure to check the FAQs for good sorcerer builds.
jameswilliamogle 08-24-05, 02:11 PM	don't take 5 levels of archmage; take 2-3. i personally dislike the archmage for sorcerers: 3 feat req's with little synergy to other prc's. some good prc's w/ no feat requirements: Fatespinner, Mindbender. a good prc for all sorc's to consider: Mage of the Arcane Order, for at least 2 levels. sorc 6, inc 10, MotAO 2, either Fatespinner 2 or Exalted Exorcist 1 with Mindbender 1 makes for a good metamagic focused sorc build, and has a few feat synergies (make sure to get Exalted Exorcist before using up all your metamagic bonus feats to get divine metamagic). pick up spell preparation to quicken your spells (sucks, but that's the way it is); some DM's might rule spell prep a metamagic feat. if you are going to focus on metamagic, make sure to pick up leadership early on to get a "standard" wizard - the table in the DMG has them listed as having mostly item creation feats. hope this helps.
Kurama Youko 08-24-05, 04:17 PM	Mage of the Arcane Order, 4 levels minimum in my opinion, and can be accessed by 5th lv by a sorc. Also adds spontaneous versitility. Incanatatrix 10, all around good for a sorcerer. Wearer of Purple, good for 9 lvs with increased hit dice, synergizes with charisma based characters better than any other prestige class, nets you to item creation feats which is great with the 5th lv incanatrix ability. :) Archmage, depends on how many kick butt abilities you want, since you have so many spell slots per day it hurts you alot less than other arcane spellcasters. Favorable abilities, Master of Counterspelling, Master of Shaping and Elemental Mastery Sacred Arcanist, 3 level prestige class that adds alot of powerful spells to your spells known, good for a finishing prestige class as oppose to a starting one. (best taken at lv 18-20)
jameswilliamogle 08-24-05, 04:40 PM	where is wearer of purple and sacred arcanist?
Kurama Youko 08-24-05, 05:04 PM	Wearer of Purple can be found inside Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons, its a prestige class meant for evil spellcasters, not to heavy on the feat requirement and doesn't have a spell level requirement. (I love the Frightful Presence, and Paraylzing Touch and Paraylzing Gaze abilities.:)) Sacred Arcanist can be found in the Book of Exalted Deeds, the 3rd lv ability adds all the of Sanctifed spells that usually only prepared spellcasters can use on your known spell-list. :) not bad really.
Kaiberon 08-24-05, 05:35 PM	Sand shaper from sandstorm gives you a huge number of extra spells known, many of them kick some ass.
carnivore 08-24-05, 05:58 PM	my favorite: Human Sorceror 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Sandshaper 1/ incantatrix 10 or for more spells known: Sorceror 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Sandshaper 1/ incantatrix 5/ Exalted Arcanist 5 for fun with bardic music: Elf Sorceror 5/ Spellsinger 5/ Mage of the Arcane order 7/ sandshaper 1/ Archmage 3 :D
ArayanAraya 08-24-05, 06:13 PM	In my BoED, Exalted Arcanist is a 5 lvl Prc. And the sanctify ability is 5th lvl.
Eidolon Faer 08-24-05, 06:22 PM	Mage of the Arcane Order is generally agreed to be an excellent one, and if you get yourself Spell Storing items and Rings of Theurgy it becomes brutal. If you're going to bother with Archmage at all, max out Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil first. The IotSV feat requirements are all on your way to Archmage, and it's a pretty beefy PrC in its' own right. There's a cold-based caster (Frostmage I think) from the Frostburn book that's also pretty nice for a Sorcerer. Otherwise, if you're looking to shed the robes of the Pure Caster, there's the Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Adventurer, which makes Enlightened Fist strikingly attractive to the Gish. Especially given the Draconic feats from Complete Arcane.
ninjarabbit 08-24-05, 06:33 PM	I think 4 levels of fatespinner are almost a must for any sorcerer. It costs almost nothing to get into, it raises your DCs and forces a foe to reroll, and gives you a reroll
canadianguy 08-24-05, 08:51 PM	How do people feel about a 2-3 level dip in harper mage it gives two of the pre req's for arch mage with minimal feat requirments and a little cha synergy with extend.
jameswilliamogle 08-24-05, 09:38 PM	How do people feel about a 2-3 level dip in harper mage it gives two of the pre req's for arch mage with minimal feat requirments and a little cha synergy with extend.i considered it once, and for some reason decided the feat / level cost was too high... you spend 2 feats (education, get extend from inc bonus feat, alertness from familiar) to gain another feat (skill foci: spellcraft) 2 levels later, and you get bardic knowledge and a skill foci knowledge, but you lose 2 potential levels of another class... it seemed like you could do a 2 level dip into MotAO while spending 1 feat (coop metamagic, which you can get from being an incanatrix, and assuming the inc's coop sp ability doesn't meet the prereq, which it very well might) and get much better abilities. this is doubly true for a sorcerer, since they have to wait an additional level for spellcasting prereq's. In my opinion: Iot7V is probably the 2nd best choice after an incanatrix; both require taking them to the terminal level to be done properly (thus it isn't wise to just take a few levels of Iot7V). MotAO is probably the best 2ndary prc, and then I rank Archmage, Fatespinner, and 1 lev Mindbender equal for sorcerers, but Arch higher for wizards (mainly b/c they have less adaptability).
RadicalTaoist 08-24-05, 09:56 PM	Although it costs a level, Recaster from Races of Eberron is nice for changeling sorcerors. I can't believe no one's mentioned Sacred Exorcist yet. AMAZING gish prc for sorcs.
ninjarabbit 08-24-05, 10:15 PM	I can't believe no one's mentioned Sacred Exorcist yet. AMAZING gish prc for sorcs. True but the skill requirements are a pain for a sorcerer, even with education.
thorian 08-24-05, 10:17 PM	I can't believe no one's mentioned Sacred Exorcist yet. AMAZING gish prc for sorcs. It was the first PrC mentioned! ;) I like Shadowcraft Mage [RoS], Shadowcrafter [Und], Shadow Adept [PGtF] for a flavorful but powerful gnome sorcerer.
K 08-24-05, 11:19 PM	Here are some of the lesser known choices: SandShaper: Upshot: Few prereqs, adds 43 Spells Known from a bottom-level heavy set list. Downshot: Lose a caster level. Arachnomancer: Upshot: Adds 12 spells to your list. Few prereqs. Downshot: Must be evil and have a tacky scar tattoo on your face. Only a one level dip is advantageous. Combat Medic Upshot: Eventually you get Evasion and the ability to cast Heal spontaneously. Downshot: Must spend an extra feat to get into it(Arcane Disciple[Healing Domain]) and a spell Known must be Cure Light Wounds. Chameleon Upshot: With 2 levels of this class, you can take your "floating" feat and each day choose a different Extra Spell Known. Downshot: Lose two caster levels. Not worth getting more than 2 levels. Dragonslayer Upshot: A one level dip will get you immunity to fear, which is nice. Downshot: Probably not worth the feat requirements (Iron Will and Dodge). Not worth going past one level. Spellguard of Silverymoon Upshot: Adds free metamagic feats and other neat stuff Downshot: Must play in Faerun and/or get DMs approval. Winterhaunt of Iborighu Upshot: Damage bonuses to cold damage spells, free Piercing Cold on all cold spells Downshot: Tough prereqs, must be evil, and must take a !st level divine caster class(so thats a one level caster hit for your Sorcerer spells). Frost Mage Upshot: Few prereqs, adds three good set spells known and a good feat, and some natty armor. Downshot: You look silly.
runestar 08-25-05, 07:31 AM	My only gripe with sorc taking incantatrix is that the spellcraft-based abilities are slightly weaker for a sorc, since a sorc will always have lower int than a wiz, and it is likely that stat will stagnate for a fair period of time until the player is willing to burn good gold for a tome of intellect+5+headband of intellect+6.
TheVatican 08-25-05, 11:32 AM	Thanks a lot guys, those were very helpful responses. I was reading some of the abilities the Maof the arcane order get, it looks like the sorcerer will not get those benefits because it casts spontaneusly. I will have ot review later tonight so that I can be more specific, but I go the impression that the calss was not made for a sorcerer. I think it had something to do with the spell pool. Unless I am missing an errata or something. But, thanks guys, the information was very helpful.
Erudite 08-25-05, 12:21 PM	Take the feat Arcane Preparation (PGtF). Off the top of my head, I do not know if it was included in CA. It allows a sorcerer to prepare spells like a wizard. Useless if you have access to the Simbul's series, but nice for MotAO.
MustafaHazaraKhan 08-25-05, 06:56 PM	Wild Mage is a pretty good dip for any arcane caster with a feat or two to spare. It permanently lowers your caster level by 3 but increases the caster level of every spell you cast by 1d6. Take Practised Spellcaster to offset the caster level loss and it becomes a highly worthwhile 1-level dip. This has several useful effects. A few more damage dice for fireball or disintegrate are always welcome, as is hitting the polymorph HD cap almost straight away. The boosted caster level also helps punch through spell resistance thus reducing the need for Spell Penetration and mitigating the cost of the prerequisite feats.
Snow Savant 08-25-05, 08:43 PM	Nobody seems to be focusing on "Skill" Sorcerors. Your CHA will be crazy-high. Your INT will be at least respectable for stuff like Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft. So take 14 levels of 4 Skills/Level PrC's that grant you access to good CHA skills like Bluff, UMD, Diplomacy, etc. We're talking about classes like Harper Mage, Master Harper, etc. All of which also have CHA-friendly class abilities (like HM's "Charisma Extend per Day" ability). In the process, you'll still maintain 20 SC levels in the 20 level build. And you can actually do stuff effectively outside of being an Artillerist or Battlefield Control Mage.
Erudite 08-25-05, 08:54 PM	A good point, so I am going to mention Harper Paragon again. Good skills, bardic knowledge, exalted animal companion, d10 hit die, cleric BAB, smite evil. Harper Mage/Harper Paragon is a nice combination.
tiercel 08-25-05, 09:35 PM	If you can get your hands on Knowledge (Religion) somehow, Divine Oracle is not shabby (better hit die, full spellcasting progression, "evasion" like ability) -- but it depends if you want a sorcerer that has some focus on divinations. Probably a stronger choice for wizards than sorcerers (not just because it's easier to get into).
Quale 08-25-05, 10:15 PM	To be blunt, given your set of books, there are only 4 PrCs I would bother with for a full caster: incantatrix, fatespinner, initiate of the sevenfold veil, and archmage. Incantatrix is by far the strongest, and I recommend that every arcane caster take at least 5 levels whenever that PrC is allowed. - Iaimeki And I agree. At least with the first part. Mage of the Arcane Order is not as good as it may first seem. After you're done staring yourself blind on all the options you think you're gonna get, you realize that the limitations are severe and if you take several levels in this class, at some point you're gonna ask yourself if you're focusing on your characters strength or really just pay a hefty price in order to try and limit it's weaknesses. Exalted Arcanist is only a so so PrC. If you really consider this class I think you will find that the exalted path doesn't really offer you that much as a sorcerer compared to the feature heavy PrC's, especially in the long run. This has to do with feat availability and spell selection versus the insane features of IE the Incantatrix. Last, I was initially intrigued by the War Weaver from Heroes of Battle. I haven't studied it carefully enough yet to recommend it, and I suspect it's a better wizard PrC, but check it out anyway if you can access the book. Sincerely,
Erudite 08-25-05, 10:15 PM	Without checking my books at the moment, try looking up Harper Mage. I believe it gives a Skill Focus.
obrysii 08-25-05, 10:17 PM	Sand Shaper is pretty nifty. Lots of bonus spells known.
The Rizz 08-26-05, 02:40 PM	If the Dragonlance setting books are available, I would suggest the Academy Sorcerer and War Mage PrCs. (Both in the Age of Mortals book.) Both classes have easy entry requirements, and give significant benefits. Academy Sorcerer is good for just about any sorcerer. It gives you a nice benefit at the first level (there are several options to choose from), and even includes UMD on its class list. If you're going for a PrC with a requirement of level 3 spells, this class is an excellent dip while you're making your way up to that requirement. War Mage (not to be confused with the CArc/MiniHB Warmage) is the ultimate in blaster-oriented PrCs. Armored spellcasting, add your CHA modifier as a morale bonus to allies' AC, free metamagic feats, increased damage per die, and good fortitude saves make this 5-level class a complete no-brainer for any arcane spellcaster with an interest in offensive spells.
TheVatican 08-26-05, 05:19 PM	I looked on the board thread ( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2798433 ) that has all the PrC's mentioned in it and it does not mention the WarMage. Is it posted somewhere else so that I can look at it more closely?
The Rizz 08-27-05, 04:26 AM	I looked on the board thread ( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2798433 ) that has all the PrC's mentioned in it and it does not mention the WarMage. Is it posted somewhere else so that I can look at it more closely?War Mage appears in the Dragonlance setting book Age of Mortals. While the Dragonlace Campaign Setting was released by Wizards, none of the supplemental books have been - they have been released by Sovereign Press. As such, you'll not find it in that list, since it appears to be WotC material only. However, while not officially WotC material, many DMs consider them close enough, since; 1) they are officially licensed by WotC, and 2) they are written by the same authors of the WotC campaign setting book. As for finding it online somewhere, I beleive you're out of luck. The official product site does not have the War Mage as an excerpt, and finding it posted anywhere else would most probably be copyright infringement, so... If you want to look it over, the best suggestion I can offer is to hit your local gaming shop or a bookstore with a good gaming section. If you like the book, you can even buy it. (If your DM will allow the Dragonlance books, I do suggest you pick this one up - I have found it to be better than most FR & Eberron expansions.)
Count Grim 08-27-05, 07:07 AM	I always liked the Elemental Savant (Air). Spell progression is normal except for the 10th level, but then you become an Air Elemental and it's all worth it. Pro's: Immunity to stunning and crits, plus a Movement rate of 100 (Fly/ Perfect) that let's you rain down spells and ranged attacks. Plus, you happen to get Spring Attack you can be deadly with touch spells and/ or melee weapons as well (i.e. move in strike and fly straight up). Con's: Gotta' know what you're doing with the magic, immediate benefits are okay, but the real payoff is at the end. I really prefer wizards, but with a wizards spell selection this class is not really necessary (just fun). Sorcerers tend to get specialized in certain types of spells (combat-wise) so the Air Savant is a better fit.
dokesa 08-27-05, 09:15 AM	Elemental Savants don't advance their spell progression on fifth level either.
Kurama Youko 08-27-05, 09:20 AM	i think count grim is remenesing about the 3.0 version of Elemental Savant. :)
Count Grim 08-27-05, 04:15 PM	Ah, too true, I missed that. Haven't actually played one since 3.0 and missed that detail in the 3.5 table. Still, spellcasters are my specialty, the difference between the 15th level character needed to complete the class and the 13th level caster one ends up with is really only defined by the player. As I said before, you gotta' know the magic to get there...becoming an air elemental, a definite benefit; being able to kill a longtime enemy after only an initiative roll and no saving throws, priceless... ;)
Nate Jones 08-27-05, 04:34 PM	Still, the fact that a majority of all your damage spells will have lightning damage is a drawback not to be overlooked.
Sentient 08-27-05, 06:25 PM	Still, the fact that a majority of all your damage spells will have lightning damage is a drawback not to be overlooked. Most damage spells suck. 100ft Natural flight speed is not to be overlooked.