Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gerdreg 02-08-04, 09:13 AM	Hi all. I just got invited into a group. They currently consist of a Cleric, a Wizard, a Rogue, a Monk, and a Fighter/Wizard (working toward Arcane Archer I believe). What would be the best pure melee tank I could play to compliment this group? I am starting at 5th level, they are all 5th and 6th level. They use a 30 pt. buy for abilities. They use all 3.5 compatible books. For my own reasons, I would like to stay full BAB and have no ECLs. Some builds I am already considering are: Dwarf Fighter, working toward Dwarven Defender (all Defense) Wood Elf Fighter, working toward Dervish (all Offense) Orc Fighter, working toward Eye of Gruumsh (won’t work because 2 characters are Elves but I have wanted to play one for awhile) Human Fighter Spiked Chain or Chain Lash specialist (unorthodox) Please tell me what you think would be the best character to go with this group and please be as specific as you wish. Also, if anyone has any thoughts on the pros or cons of the builds I am considering, please feel free to share them. I am open to any suggestions. Thanks in advance.
PeggeyandScott 02-08-04, 12:27 PM	For dish it out, I think it will be tough to beat your Dervish. I would stick with a human and do something like this: Human Dervish S16 D14 C14 I14 W10 Ch8 (The high intelligence is annoying, but you need it to qualify for Combat Expertise and to buy all those cross-class skills to get into Dervish) Bbn 1 - EWP - Bastard Sword, WF - Bastard Sword Ftr 1 - Dodge Ftr 2 - Mobility, Combat Expertise Ftr 3 - STR +1 Ftr 4 - Weapon Specialization - Bastard Sword Dervish 1 - Power Attack Exotic Weapon Master 1 - Uncanny Blow Dervish 2 STR +1 Dervish 3 Spring Attack, Improved Critical At 9th level, you have full BAB progression, +15 ft to your move (which really helps with spring attack and the Dervish Dance), +2 to hit and +2 to damage from Dervish levels, x2 to your strength damage if you use the bastard sword 2 handed, and decent saving throws all around (Bbn, Ftr and EWM give you Fort, Dervish gives you Ref and Will). I am seeing: Attack (two handed) +16 to hit, d10+12 (17-20 x2) Full Attack (two handed ) +16/+11, d10+12/d10+12 (17-20 x2) Add in a measley +4 power attack, and you get Full Attack +12/+7, d10+20/d10+20 (17-20 x2) And that does not include any magic or your Rage. If you do go with a Dwarven Defender, take a one level dip into Exotic Weapon Master and take uncanny blow (same benefits with a Dwarven Waraxe as you get with the Bastard Sword for a Dervish). Also look into the feat Elusive Target from Complete Warrior. When you are in a Defensive Stance, you will probably get flanked a lot...the Diverting Defense ability from Elusive Target is very helpful, if not just downright amusing. A dwarf using Jackie Chan maneuvers while the enemies imitate the three stooges is definitely cool.
Psifon 02-08-04, 12:48 PM	Well, as a figther tank you have 3 options: Sword and board - This is your basic fighter. Pros: Good AC. Cons: Relatively Low damage output. Don't dismiss the good AC part. If you max out your AC pretty well, you will have staying power long enough to more than make up for your low damage output. There are lots of ways to go here. Levels of barbarian are highly recommended, with a few levels of figthter mixed in for the feats. All kinds of PrC's are viable too. Two handed fighter - Pros: Good damage output, requires no feats to use, so you can concentrate on other wierd stuff. Cons: Poor AC. This is your best simple option for damage output. It is not feat or stat intensive, just put every stat bonus you can get into your STR, and go. You can make up for the lost of a shiled with an animated shield, but not untill mid levels. Again a level or two of barbarian is good here, the Weaponmaster PrC works well with this build. Two weapon fighter - Pros: Good damage output, Cons: Poor AC. This build is highly feat intensive. You can make up for the poor AC with an animated shield. You are going to have to spend feats or stay current with what a two handed fighter can do, and because you have a -2 to hit you will generally lag behind the two handed fighter on damage. I recommned taking 3 levels of swashbuckler to get the damage bonus from your INT. This build is hightly stat-intensive however. I agree that dirvish is probably the best PrC here, but I see no reason to take bastard sword when all your class abilities are centered around the scimitar. You are going to want a good dex, and levels of rogue are a must wth this build. This is a very general overview, pick a direction and it will be easier to help you out.
Qaetar 02-08-04, 01:06 PM	Why not go for Full Plate with Armor Spikes and a Spiked Large Shield? You could do anything with your offhand, including improved disarm and snatch weapon.
wtfpwned 02-08-04, 03:36 PM	Go for a really good damage dealer I would think. You have a cleric for buff spells and heals, and AC is higly over rated in most of the games I play since we tend to play low magic. HP/saves is where its at. Grab the biggest two-hander ya can find. Grab combat reflexes and karmic strike. Imp trip and knockdown helps this out a lot, along with jotunbrud and wolf-bezerker. This sounds like a standard trip build, but it works. If your opponent can only score one hit on you, who really cares about AC. You will have huge damage and stayin power.
ikkonoishi 02-08-04, 04:00 PM	What is really fun is getting great throw, and a few more melee capable party members near you. Great throw them into the middle of your party. Now if they try to get up your party gets an AOO each. Once they are up if they try to move they get pounded on. If they try to attack one guy they get pounded. Also everyone will get flanking bonuses out the wadzu.
SmiloDan 02-08-04, 04:20 PM	I would go Barbarian 1/Fighter 4. Get Power Attack, Cleave, and whatever else you want. Maybe Extra Rage from MotW. Sometimes, you don't have the gear to penetrate DR, so you have to do it by damage. I like the Greataxe, because of the damage potential. It might be worth getting WF and WSp for added damage. Alternatively, the Spiked Chain-Combat Reflexes combo is fun too. Maybe try to get Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. I like Human for the extra feat, but halforc and dwarf aren't bad for dishing it out and taking it, respectively.
Snow Savant 02-08-04, 04:45 PM	Gerdreg said: They currently consist of a Cleric, a Wizard, a Rogue, a Monk, and a Fighter/Wizard (working toward Arcane Archer I believe). Honestly, the *perfect* fit for your group would be a Paladin. You need a secondary healer with that many people. And you could still be a top-tier Tank to boot. I'd seriously consider it in light of your party's needs. Gerdreg's options he is considering: Dwarf Fighter, working toward Dwarven Defender (all Defense) Wood Elf Fighter, working toward Dervish (all Offense) Orc Fighter, working toward Eye of Gruumsh (won’t work because 2 characters are Elves but I have wanted to play one for awhile) Human Fighter Spiked Chain or Chain Lash specialist (unorthodox) From a party balance perspective, your party could really use an "anchor" point for general area control. Especially since you have the luxury of 2 mobility combatants in the Monk & Rogue. Ergo, that Dwarven Defender idea of yours has a lot of merit. The Chain Fighter and the Eye of Gruumsh could fill those roles as well, depending upon the build. The one concept I would pass on is your Dervish build. Yeah, Dervishes are outright killer. But your Monk and Rogue (and maybe the Gish) fight in a very similar fashion. And to be honest with you, your Wizard and Cleric could really use someone to hold the line and provide them protection. And I'm sure they will show you their appreciation by buffing you *first*, before any of the others. :D And re-read Psifon's post ... it's good advice. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Matt Neuman 02-08-04, 04:54 PM	I'd second the suggestion of paladin, although other class combinations could certainly work as well. Something along the lines of Cleric 3/Fighter 4/Dwarven Defender 8/Stonelord 5 Could make a great tank/secondary healer.
Snow Savant 02-08-04, 05:05 PM	Woo-hoo! A Stonelord build!! Neato, Matt. I love that PrC. I'm not quite convinced it's all the bees knees yet, so I hope to playtest it sometime soon. Although I think Matt's concept/build looks strong on paper. Nice catch... Snow :)
Sword_TAG 02-08-04, 05:13 PM	That Sword n' Board idea has merit, especially if you consider the Warmace as an option. True it drops your AC by 1, but combine it with monkey grip and suddenly you have a 3d6 with one hand. Which is out right nasty. Combine it with full plate and a tower shield and you have a nastily combonation With full BAB you have 8 Armor AC, 4 Shield AC, -1 for Warmace giving you a final AC of +11 not counting Dex, Magic or otherwise. Your Warmace is at -2 to hit with the Tower Shield but considering that this becomes a -1 with Weapon Focus and you undoubtably have the Str to back it up this isn't THAT big of a deal. Besides the Tower Shield also allows you to form Total Cover. Which is very nice, especially in dungeons because you put a Tower Shield up in a small cooridor and suddenly your casters have free time to buff you any which way. It's also helpful for those pesky archers as with Total Cover they can't hit you. ^_^ Also this style is perfect for a Dwarf Fighter. The bonus to Con makes you have so many hit points and so much AC that your minuses to hit matter very little. Combine it with Dwarven Defender and it's a wonder if you'll ever get hit. Take a level of Barbarian and work with a suit of Mythral Plate. Rage and Defensive Stand mesh giving you a bonus of +8 to Con, +6 to Str, +2 to saves (+4 to Will Saves) and +2 to AC (+4 for defensive stance, -2 for Rage). Combine this with a feat like hold the line and anything that so much as gets near you gets whacked. Only problem with the defensive stance/rage combo is when you're finally done, you're not only fatigued but winded too. Though the Paladin idea has merit too, you can still do the Fullplate/Tower Shield/Warmace combo. Mobile? Not really. But you do have a Monk and a Ranger to do that for you while you chew up anything dumb enough to come after your casters.
Mucknuggle 02-08-04, 05:17 PM	Well now, you are allowed all 3.5 compatible material? You want a tank? If you are allowed to use the Unearthed Arcana preview material, I would go with Cleric 4/ Fighter 1/ Pretige Paladin 3/ Hospitaler 10/ XXX 2. Could potentially give you 18th level cleric casting *and* a BAB of +19. You could always replace the Hospitaler levels with more of the Prestige Paladin (in fact you could go Cleric 4/ Fighter 1/ Prestige Paladin 15) and have a great BAB and less caster levels. I also am against the Dervish, but I like the idea of an area control fighter (like Snow's Gatling Chain Fighter for example). You're not playing inthe Forgotten Realms are you?
MegaPlex 02-08-04, 05:17 PM	If you are allowed 3rdparty content, take a look at The Book of THe Righteous from Green Ronin. It has a 'Holy Warrior' class which is much like the Paladin, but allows different alignments and special abilities depending on your church/god. Also, one of the Dragon magazines (#310?) has a few alternative Paladin classes. I'm playing a Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Holy Warrior 2 in a current game. I've chosen the Spiked Chain route with Power Attack (going into the Divine Power feats) and it's quite effective. I plan on Champion of Gwynharfwer 10 to continue Rage and gain divine spells. A Wand of Cure Light Wounds (at 750 gp) is cheap! If you can get a 3/day magic item of Enlarge Person or have your Wizard cast it on you each combat, you will dominate.
JosephKell 02-08-04, 05:28 PM	Hmmm Strong tank... Paladin 3/Fighter 2/Purple Dragon Knight 5 is a pretty good start... Despite not having any Paladin spells, a Paladin can still use a Wand or Cure Light Wounds... Actually any party should buy a LOT of spare Wands of CLW, because it is 3 gp per 1 hp healed. That is better than anything else. And having 3 PC's that can use them (assuming the Rogue has Use Magic Device) means that you are pretty well off. The only reason to buy Wands for cure spells of higher than Light is for during the fight healing (where you can't spend time spending lots of charges) Actually for a while I've been trying to make a Bard/Purple Dragon Knight/War Chanter... A Bard is also a good option. Boost your allies and you can heal. Do any of the PC's have craft feats? Because a Bard can take Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 (Hat of Disguise, yo)."The Mandolin is mighter than the Sword" -Jonathan http://www.geocities.com/jonathanef/josepha.txt
LordShade 02-08-04, 06:44 PM	If you decide to go dervish, search around for a recent post that maxed out # of attacks in a dervish build. I think it used either Monk or Shou Disciple levels to get the flurry ability with scimitars. It might not be the best fit with your group, as you've already got some speed-fighters with the monk and the rogue, but it sure would be fun as hell to play :)
Gerdreg 02-08-04, 06:59 PM	Wow, some great suggestions so far guys, thx much for the great input. Originally posted by Psifon This is a very general overview, pick a direction and it will be easier to help you out. A very good point but honestly I’m not really sure. I wanna do what’s best for the group AND make a character I am going to enjoy playing. I really haven’t decided on a direction yet, only that I wanna be a melee tank type (as opposed to say another archer). Originally posted by Mucknuggle You're not playing inthe Forgotten Realms are you? We are playing in a generic world created by the DM but he hasn’t prohibited any campaign specific material. I don’t think he would have a problem with any FR stuff. Just out of curiosity, how come u guys aren’t very big on the Dervish? Are they not as good as they seem, or just not for the group I am describing? I haven’t played one, do they play differently from how their description reads?
JosephKell 02-08-04, 07:07 PM	Dervish are unarmored fighters (and maximizing their attacks isn't all that great unless you are about to move around a lot... and remember Tumbling uses up 10 feet of movement per 5 feet actually traveled) that (ironically) are best if used with a Two-handed Weapon (like a Greatsword) But D&D favors the Armored Tin Can to the dancing swordswinger. All I know is that my next PC will be a Paladin-Knight type.
Snow Savant 02-08-04, 07:17 PM	Just out of curiosity, how come u guys aren’t very big on the Dervish? Are they not as good as they seem, or just not for the group I am describing? I haven’t played one, do they play differently from how their description reads? You won't find anybody here who has anything bad to say about the Dervish. It's a top-tier melee combatant PrC - one of the best. It's just that if you go the Dervish route, your 6-person party will now have 3 (you, Monk, & Rogue) mobility warriors and an Arcane Archer. Meaning no front-liners. Meaning no protection for the primary spellcasters - Cleric and Mage. And the Dervish is *NOT* a front-liner. 3 Mobility combatants is too much. You won't be able to effectively hold down a position like you would if you had a traditional Fighter, Paladin, Dw. Defender, etc. performing such a task. And holding (and advancing) territory is key in battlefield control tactics. Again, it's your call. Your party should do fine no matter what you pick. But if you really want to give your party some strong component synergy, most of your earlier selections will help you fulfill that potential ... just not the Dervish. :D XO, Snow :cloud9:
Gerdreg 02-08-04, 07:20 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant You won't find anybody here who has anything bad to say about the Dervish. It's a top-tier melee combatant PrC - one of the best. It's just that if you go the Dervish route, your 6-person party will now have 3 (you, Monk, & Rogue) mobility warriors and an Arcane Archer. Meaning no front-liners. Meaning no protection for the primary spellcasters - Cleric and Mage. And the Dervish is *NOT* a front-liner. 3 Mobility combatants is too much. You won't be able to effectively hold down a position like you would if you had a traditional Fighter, Paladin, Dw. Defender, etc. performing such a task. And holding (and advancing) territory is key in battlefield control tactics. Again, it's your call. Your party should do fine no matter what you pick. But if you really want to give your party some strong component synergy, most of your earlier selections will help you fulfill that potential ... just not the Dervish. :D XO, Snow :cloud9: Gotcha. If the monsters are hitting the other party members and not me cause I am running around to much, then I'm only doing half my job. Thx again. I looked at some of Snow's chain builds and I like the idea of using a reach weapon. Are there any other reach weapons that can hit both adjacent targets and targets 10 ft. away beside the Chain and Spiked Chain? Anyone playing a polearm fighter? What do you do when opponents move into an adjacent area? Do you always take a 5' step before you attack (which would seem to make "holding ground" difficult) or do you just use spiked gauntlets/armor or something?
Virgil 02-08-04, 07:47 PM	The Duom will let you attack foes both 10 ft away and 5 ft. Its in Sword and Fist. The Kusari-gama (chain and scythe) can also attack 10ft, 5ft, be used as a double weapon, trip,etc... It's in the DM's Guide (sorry I dont remember the page) I too agree with the suggestions of a meatshield character, but if ya want a good Dervish build I've been working on one that thus far has been a blast fun to play Monk2/Ranger2/Fighter1/Shou Disciple 5/Dervish 10 At 20th lvl you can bust out 16 scimitar attacks in one round (and only one round hehe) at roughly +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5 If interested let me know and I'll post the rest of the details... Best of luck, -Virgil-
LordOfHavoc 02-09-04, 12:28 AM	Why not have a Dwarven fighter/lasher with a Whipdagger/Scourge in one hand and a Large Spiked Steel Sheild w/ the bashing enchantment on the other hand. U could hit people out to 15 feet. and if they got close to you u could bash them for 2d6 with your shield:cool: Take Improved Shield bash, TWF, and have fun :D
MikeN 02-09-04, 12:46 AM	If psionics are allowed, the best build possible for your purposes involves Psychic Warrior + Spiked Chain or Duom + Combat Reflexes + Stand Still. Some other pluses to this build is that you can also take Speed of Thought, Psionic Charge, etc and keep up with your mobile fighters as well as being a ground-control specialist. If no psionics are allowed, it's hard to beat the half-ogre + spiked chain + Large and In Charge + Combat Reflexes route for a ground-control specialist. I personally like the monk/shou disciple base for this but there are quite a few ways to build this kind of fighting machine.
PhaedrusXY 02-09-04, 02:56 AM	I play a tough unarmed "fighter" who specializes in grappling and tripping mainly, but I do use a guisarme frequently also. The build can be found in the third post down in this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176924&highlight=trip) thread. If I were redoing it, I'd seriously consider leaving out the ranger levels. I hardly ever use a missle weapon, and my DM doesn't let TWF stack with Flurry (rightfully so, in my opinion, but I had to ask :D ). I'd take more monk levels, instead. If you went monk6/shou5/singh5 you could get your base unarmed damage equal to a 20th level monks by using the monk's belt and the monk's tattoo. That still leaves you four levels to play with. My character wears light armor and can rage, so I play him more like a barbarian than a monk. He just happens to be good at fighting bare-handed.
Ereanor 02-09-04, 09:06 PM	How about Barb5/Ranger12/Holy Liberator3 Good BAB, decent saves, uncanny dodge, evasion, Rage with endurance, some divine spells, animal companion, tracking, immune to charm, turn undead, favored enemy, TWF with double axe possibly. You be like an outdoors man or mountain man.
Ereanor 02-09-04, 09:13 PM	How about Barb5/Ranger12/Holy Liberator3 Good BAB, decent saves, uncanny dodge, evasion, Rage with endurance, some divine spells, animal companion, tracking, immune to charm, turn undead, favored enemy, TWF with double axe possibly. You be like an outdoors man or mountain man Sorry for double post. I didn't realize first one went through
Psifon 02-10-04, 02:07 AM	Fighter 10/Weapon Master 10 (from sword and fist) is a good basic mass damage character. Give him a mercurial greatsword, and plenty of access to the enlarge person spell for reach. Suggested Feats: Exotic Weapon: Mercurial Greatsword Weapons Focus: Mercurial Greatsword Combat Expertise Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Whirlwind Attack Combat Reflexes Power attack Cleave Improved Critical (this may or may not stack with a class ability in weapon master, so ymmv). Karmic Strike Sidestep Elusive Target Equipment should include mithril tesselated armor, and an animated shield. You want to max out your AC as best as you can, since your basic shtick is to stand there and take it round after round as the linch-pin of the party. His WWA lets him take on groups, and his Ki damage let him dish it out to single foes as well. As a enlarged person, his Ki damage does 18 hp per (non-crit) strike once per day per level of weapon master, before any adds. Not many BBEG's can stand up against that kind of punishment for long. When he crits he kills. This guy can dish it out in a very big way, has good mobility if you want to go mobile. He can trip foes who miss him on AoO's and karmic strike those who hit him due to AoO's. Sidestep also lets him controll the amount of damage he takes in combat. Since you want to get surrounded alot, elusive target lets you divert one attack from you to another foe, a nice feature. Alternate builds off this general concept include substituting two levels of barbarian for two levels of fighter, taking the improved trip feat and a level of exotic weapon master (so you can trip with your sword), and trading out the mercurial greatsword for a spiked chain or a simple greatsword, and save the feat.