Best Quasit/Imp Familiar Alternate Form [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Quasit/Imp Familiar Alternate Form [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lilt
10-05-04, 08:58 PM OK. I'm looking at taking a level of Nar Demonbinder as part of one of my character's progressions. This gives me the ability to summon an imp or quasit familiar (probably quasit as my character is CE).

My question is: What Alternate Form(s) should the quasit take?

It can only ever have 2, which it can presumably never change. They can be of up-to medium size though, which breaks the standard 1 size category shift, and as they themselves are outsiders they can assume the forms of other outsiders.

I preferably want one form that's as versatile as possible. It already has its tiny, winged, form which is fairly good for spying and such. What else should I really look for in a form?

Following Snow Savant's advice on how familiars are best kept safe and not used as touch-attack-dogs, ideally I think I want a highly surviveable form with a high Armor Class and good immunities.

Its base form should suffice for mobility (although water-breathing, swimming, and burrowing might be advantageous). I was considering a humanoid form to blend-in and perform intrigue with, but my skills are mostly Knowledges and Spellcraft (except for a high bluff) so I don't think that would work.

Anyone else have insights on this? This character is definately not a familiar-focused character, Nar Demonbinder 1 is the character's only (ever) familiar-granting level so it won't get many abilities. I've looked at The 3.5 Polymorph Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=175846) but I still don't know which form would be best for this task as it presumably has differing needs to polymorphing characters.
Eagle Prince
10-05-04, 09:53 PM The best alternate form for imp/quasit familiar is a lionel. This is what they get in lionel form.

medium-size humanoid(ish) form
speed 60
+14 natural armor
2 claw attacks and bite attack
immunity to electricity and petrification
pounce (full attack plus two rake attacks on a charge)
improved grab (bite attack)
two rake attacks (see back of MM for more about rake attacks)
Str 27, Dex 17, Con 20
+4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently

There's also a lot of other good forms in the demons and devils stuff, just go through them until you find what you like.
Balthanon
10-05-04, 10:03 PM Its base form should suffice for mobility (although water-breathing, swimming, and burrowing might be advantageous). I was considering a humanoid form to blend-in and perform intrigue with, but my skills are mostly Knowledges and Spellcraft (except for a high bluff) so I don't think that would work.

If you're going strictly by the rules, the quasit familiar of the Nar Demonbinder doesn't use your skills actually. If you look at the skill section for the class, it says that it uses its own skills, contrary to a standard familiar.
dirkformica
10-05-04, 10:09 PM I don't know if this form would work, due to HD limits or whatever, but if a Leonal would work then I'd look at the Kelvezu from Monster Manual II on page 60. Kelvezu (Demon); outsider; medium; Reach 5’; Fly speed 60' (good); STR 21, DEX 31, CON 16, INT 17; NA +15; 12 HD; Other Benefits: Poison (Injury Fort DC 19, 1d6 CON / 1d6 CON), Sneak Attack +8d6 in melee only. (edited to add: also gets a +8 to Hide and Move Silently.)

The Sneak Attack could be used with touch spells as melee attacks if you wanted (even though you mentioned not really wanting to put the familiar in harms way.) The two biggest benefits that first made me think of this form was that it's a a Medium Outsider that looks like a human with rosy skin that's about 5 feet tall. The description of the monster specifically mentions that it is easily disguiseable as a human. This form also grants a total of +25 to Armor Class (+10 dex and +15 Natural Armor.)

You might also be able to use his Poison ability to poison party weapons before a fight. The poison it can secrete from its fingertips lasts for 1 minute before becoming inert so you wouldn't have much time to mess around, but it could come in handy immediately before a fight.
Balthanon
10-06-04, 12:01 PM Polymorph is unfortunately limited by the subjects hit dice in addition to the the caster level of the spell, so a quasit (assuming he must choose his alternate forms when he is first born/created/whatever) is limited to a 3 hit die outsider, animal, magical beast, giant, humanoid, etc... for his forms.
Qaetar
10-06-04, 12:32 PM I thought they counted as having (half) your hit dice for effects because they're a familiar?

(Qaetar)
UMiskatonic
10-06-04, 01:21 PM I would choose something subtle for one of the forms. I can think of a lot of places where having a demon on your shoulder would NOT be okay. You might be able to get away with a rat following behind you, or a raven in a nearby tree.

As for low HD outsiders, there might be a mephit or two worth looking at. With immunities, that might mean that you could drop spells on the familiars area without needing to worry.

For example, you could create a wall of fire, and put the fire mephit inside it, to act as an observer for what is happening on the other side.

Good luck,
UMiskatonic
Balthanon
10-06-04, 05:50 PM I thought they counted as having (half) your hit dice for effects because they're a familiar?

(Qaetar)

They count as having your full hit dice... after they become a familiar. Presumably they had the ability to assume other shapes before that, however, and they aren't allowed to change their forms.

Also, for the immunity suggestion, with alternate form being based on polymorph, you are only going to pick up extraordinary special attacks, not special qualities. Immunities are a special quality unfortunately, so although your familiar will look like a mephit, he'll still be harmed by fire, cold, lightning, etc...

For a normal human looking form that is at least somewhat superior, I would suggest the Bacchae out of the Fiend Folio. At 2 hd, they get 5 natural armor, 2 claw attacks, rage 2/day, rend 2d4+3, 14 Str, 13 Dex, and 15 Con.

If looking for an animal like form, a Vorr is a decent 3 hd form out of the same book that gets 2d6 sneak attack, decent physical stats, and trip. It looks a bit like a hyena, so it will be hard to pass off as a normal creature, but still probably isn't a bad form to take.

If you're really looking to mess with people's minds, an angelic looking protector (Miniature's Handbook) could be fun as well. :)
Eagle Prince
10-06-04, 06:24 PM Immunities are a natural quality and you gain them while shapechanging.
dirkformica
10-06-04, 06:31 PM I believe it has been established that since you gain the Type and Subtype(s) of the creature you Polymorph into, that you gain the natural abilities granted by those types in this series of articles:

Part 1: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a

Part 2: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a

Part 3: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a

Part 4: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a

I'm not sure which one exactly stipulates that, but I'm pretty sure I remember it being in there.
Balthanon
10-06-04, 06:32 PM Immunities are a natural quality and you gain them while shapechanging.

Knew I should have double checked that Rules of the Game article. :)
Nazzareth
10-07-04, 08:44 AM If you are a small size character the best forms are wolf and 2HD eagle. The forms are limited to any 2HD animal the 2HD eagle is medium sized so this allows you to ride both forms as a mount.
Balthanon
10-07-04, 09:07 PM If you are a small size character the best forms are wolf and 2HD eagle. The forms are limited to any 2HD animal the 2HD eagle is medium sized so this allows you to ride both forms as a mount.

There is nothing in the alternate form ability limiting it to two hit die animals. The examples are all animals and vermin, but the only actual limits it gives on the ability is the polymorph spell and being limited to one or two forms of medium size or less.
Lilt
10-08-04, 10:07 AM Some people are talking about how the form would be limited to creatures with lower hit-dice... Are people sure about this?

Quasits have 3HD, yet the alternate form abilities in both the MM Quasit entry and the DMG Quasit Familiar entry both say they function "As Polymorph, caster level 12th". There is also nothing in the Polymorph spell about the caster's HD, only the caster level matters when deciding upon possible forms.

I like the idea of changing into a creature with the Good subtype as that might allow the familiar to sneak past certain wards or evade certain effects. I'm not sure about that, however, as IIRC I add subtypes to the ones I have already. My familiar could get all four of the allignment subtypes :)
Medium Outsider (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful)
Wylycoyte
10-08-04, 11:01 AM Just for pure roleplaying's sake I like the thought of one of the forms being a very innocent-looking, adorable human child.

In an urban setting, there'd be a LOT of townspeople that could be sicced on the PCs for messing with a little kid. The idea of the child duping the PCs and actually turning out to be evil incarnate is pretty cool, too.

Add a hideously nasty combat form as the other shape and you'd have a fantastic "Jack the Ripper" mystery killer.
Balthanon
10-08-04, 05:34 PM Some people are talking about how the form would be limited to creatures with lower hit-dice... Are people sure about this?

Quasits have 3HD, yet the alternate form abilities in both the MM Quasit entry and the DMG Quasit Familiar entry both say they function "As Polymorph, caster level 12th". There is also nothing in the Polymorph spell about the caster's HD, only the caster level matters when deciding upon possible forms.[/b]

Actually, the sentence describing the limitation on the HD of the assumed form does mention hit dice:
The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.
Lilt
10-10-04, 07:26 AM Ah... Thanks for that one Balthanon. Mental note not to summon the familiar until it'd be effectively 12HD.

Logically, although the Quasit in the wild may only have 3HD thus only be able to assume some less powerful forms (like an innocent-looking child), it's last form could possibly remain undefined until it was summoned. Wish could possibly also allow the re-choice of forms.
Balthanon
10-10-04, 09:20 AM Ah... Thanks for that one Balthanon. Mental note not to summon the familiar until it'd be effectively 12HD.

Logically, although the Quasit in the wild may only have 3HD thus only be able to assume some less powerful forms (like an innocent-looking child), it's last form could possibly remain undefined until it was summoned. Wish could possibly also allow the re-choice of forms.

I could see a carefully worded wish allowing that actually. A DM is going to be more likely to go along with it if you're actually spending something for the extra abilities beyond those a quasit would normally possess.
Nazzareth
10-11-04, 09:06 AM Oops The 2HD limit I posted before was a mistake, I miss-read the Alternate Form and polymorph ability. I think I got the two HD crossed with the normal animal familiar's starting HD limit.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lilt 10-05-04, 08:58 PM	OK. I'm looking at taking a level of Nar Demonbinder as part of one of my character's progressions. This gives me the ability to summon an imp or quasit familiar (probably quasit as my character is CE). My question is: What Alternate Form(s) should the quasit take? It can only ever have 2, which it can presumably never change. They can be of up-to medium size though, which breaks the standard 1 size category shift, and as they themselves are outsiders they can assume the forms of other outsiders. I preferably want one form that's as versatile as possible. It already has its tiny, winged, form which is fairly good for spying and such. What else should I really look for in a form? Following Snow Savant's advice on how familiars are best kept safe and not used as touch-attack-dogs, ideally I think I want a highly surviveable form with a high Armor Class and good immunities. Its base form should suffice for mobility (although water-breathing, swimming, and burrowing might be advantageous). I was considering a humanoid form to blend-in and perform intrigue with, but my skills are mostly Knowledges and Spellcraft (except for a high bluff) so I don't think that would work. Anyone else have insights on this? This character is definately not a familiar-focused character, Nar Demonbinder 1 is the character's only (ever) familiar-granting level so it won't get many abilities. I've looked at The 3.5 Polymorph Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=175846) but I still don't know which form would be best for this task as it presumably has differing needs to polymorphing characters.
Eagle Prince 10-05-04, 09:53 PM	The best alternate form for imp/quasit familiar is a lionel. This is what they get in lionel form. medium-size humanoid(ish) form speed 60 +14 natural armor 2 claw attacks and bite attack immunity to electricity and petrification pounce (full attack plus two rake attacks on a charge) improved grab (bite attack) two rake attacks (see back of MM for more about rake attacks) Str 27, Dex 17, Con 20 +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently There's also a lot of other good forms in the demons and devils stuff, just go through them until you find what you like.
Balthanon 10-05-04, 10:03 PM	Its base form should suffice for mobility (although water-breathing, swimming, and burrowing might be advantageous). I was considering a humanoid form to blend-in and perform intrigue with, but my skills are mostly Knowledges and Spellcraft (except for a high bluff) so I don't think that would work. If you're going strictly by the rules, the quasit familiar of the Nar Demonbinder doesn't use your skills actually. If you look at the skill section for the class, it says that it uses its own skills, contrary to a standard familiar.
dirkformica 10-05-04, 10:09 PM	I don't know if this form would work, due to HD limits or whatever, but if a Leonal would work then I'd look at the Kelvezu from Monster Manual II on page 60. Kelvezu (Demon); outsider; medium; Reach 5’; Fly speed 60' (good); STR 21, DEX 31, CON 16, INT 17; NA +15; 12 HD; Other Benefits: Poison (Injury Fort DC 19, 1d6 CON / 1d6 CON), Sneak Attack +8d6 in melee only. (edited to add: also gets a +8 to Hide and Move Silently.) The Sneak Attack could be used with touch spells as melee attacks if you wanted (even though you mentioned not really wanting to put the familiar in harms way.) The two biggest benefits that first made me think of this form was that it's a a Medium Outsider that looks like a human with rosy skin that's about 5 feet tall. The description of the monster specifically mentions that it is easily disguiseable as a human. This form also grants a total of +25 to Armor Class (+10 dex and +15 Natural Armor.) You might also be able to use his Poison ability to poison party weapons before a fight. The poison it can secrete from its fingertips lasts for 1 minute before becoming inert so you wouldn't have much time to mess around, but it could come in handy immediately before a fight.
Balthanon 10-06-04, 12:01 PM	Polymorph is unfortunately limited by the subjects hit dice in addition to the the caster level of the spell, so a quasit (assuming he must choose his alternate forms when he is first born/created/whatever) is limited to a 3 hit die outsider, animal, magical beast, giant, humanoid, etc... for his forms.
Qaetar 10-06-04, 12:32 PM	I thought they counted as having (half) your hit dice for effects because they're a familiar? (Qaetar)
UMiskatonic 10-06-04, 01:21 PM	I would choose something subtle for one of the forms. I can think of a lot of places where having a demon on your shoulder would NOT be okay. You might be able to get away with a rat following behind you, or a raven in a nearby tree. As for low HD outsiders, there might be a mephit or two worth looking at. With immunities, that might mean that you could drop spells on the familiars area without needing to worry. For example, you could create a wall of fire, and put the fire mephit inside it, to act as an observer for what is happening on the other side. Good luck, UMiskatonic
Balthanon 10-06-04, 05:50 PM	I thought they counted as having (half) your hit dice for effects because they're a familiar? (Qaetar) They count as having your full hit dice... after they become a familiar. Presumably they had the ability to assume other shapes before that, however, and they aren't allowed to change their forms. Also, for the immunity suggestion, with alternate form being based on polymorph, you are only going to pick up extraordinary special attacks, not special qualities. Immunities are a special quality unfortunately, so although your familiar will look like a mephit, he'll still be harmed by fire, cold, lightning, etc... For a normal human looking form that is at least somewhat superior, I would suggest the Bacchae out of the Fiend Folio. At 2 hd, they get 5 natural armor, 2 claw attacks, rage 2/day, rend 2d4+3, 14 Str, 13 Dex, and 15 Con. If looking for an animal like form, a Vorr is a decent 3 hd form out of the same book that gets 2d6 sneak attack, decent physical stats, and trip. It looks a bit like a hyena, so it will be hard to pass off as a normal creature, but still probably isn't a bad form to take. If you're really looking to mess with people's minds, an angelic looking protector (Miniature's Handbook) could be fun as well. :)
Eagle Prince 10-06-04, 06:24 PM	Immunities are a natural quality and you gain them while shapechanging.
dirkformica 10-06-04, 06:31 PM	I believe it has been established that since you gain the Type and Subtype(s) of the creature you Polymorph into, that you gain the natural abilities granted by those types in this series of articles: Part 1: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a Part 2: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a Part 3: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a Part 4: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a I'm not sure which one exactly stipulates that, but I'm pretty sure I remember it being in there.
Balthanon 10-06-04, 06:32 PM	Immunities are a natural quality and you gain them while shapechanging. Knew I should have double checked that Rules of the Game article. :)
Nazzareth 10-07-04, 08:44 AM	If you are a small size character the best forms are wolf and 2HD eagle. The forms are limited to any 2HD animal the 2HD eagle is medium sized so this allows you to ride both forms as a mount.
Balthanon 10-07-04, 09:07 PM	If you are a small size character the best forms are wolf and 2HD eagle. The forms are limited to any 2HD animal the 2HD eagle is medium sized so this allows you to ride both forms as a mount. There is nothing in the alternate form ability limiting it to two hit die animals. The examples are all animals and vermin, but the only actual limits it gives on the ability is the polymorph spell and being limited to one or two forms of medium size or less.
Lilt 10-08-04, 10:07 AM	Some people are talking about how the form would be limited to creatures with lower hit-dice... Are people sure about this? Quasits have 3HD, yet the alternate form abilities in both the MM Quasit entry and the DMG Quasit Familiar entry both say they function "As Polymorph, caster level 12th". There is also nothing in the Polymorph spell about the caster's HD, only the caster level matters when deciding upon possible forms. I like the idea of changing into a creature with the Good subtype as that might allow the familiar to sneak past certain wards or evade certain effects. I'm not sure about that, however, as IIRC I add subtypes to the ones I have already. My familiar could get all four of the allignment subtypes :) Medium Outsider (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful)
Wylycoyte 10-08-04, 11:01 AM	Just for pure roleplaying's sake I like the thought of one of the forms being a very innocent-looking, adorable human child. In an urban setting, there'd be a LOT of townspeople that could be sicced on the PCs for messing with a little kid. The idea of the child duping the PCs and actually turning out to be evil incarnate is pretty cool, too. Add a hideously nasty combat form as the other shape and you'd have a fantastic "Jack the Ripper" mystery killer.
Balthanon 10-08-04, 05:34 PM	Some people are talking about how the form would be limited to creatures with lower hit-dice... Are people sure about this? Quasits have 3HD, yet the alternate form abilities in both the MM Quasit entry and the DMG Quasit Familiar entry both say they function "As Polymorph, caster level 12th". There is also nothing in the Polymorph spell about the caster's HD, only the caster level matters when deciding upon possible forms.[/b] Actually, the sentence describing the limitation on the HD of the assumed form does mention hit dice: The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.
Lilt 10-10-04, 07:26 AM	Ah... Thanks for that one Balthanon. Mental note not to summon the familiar until it'd be effectively 12HD. Logically, although the Quasit in the wild may only have 3HD thus only be able to assume some less powerful forms (like an innocent-looking child), it's last form could possibly remain undefined until it was summoned. Wish could possibly also allow the re-choice of forms.
Balthanon 10-10-04, 09:20 AM	Ah... Thanks for that one Balthanon. Mental note not to summon the familiar until it'd be effectively 12HD. Logically, although the Quasit in the wild may only have 3HD thus only be able to assume some less powerful forms (like an innocent-looking child), it's last form could possibly remain undefined until it was summoned. Wish could possibly also allow the re-choice of forms. I could see a carefully worded wish allowing that actually. A DM is going to be more likely to go along with it if you're actually spending something for the extra abilities beyond those a quasit would normally possess.
Nazzareth 10-11-04, 09:06 AM	Oops The 2HD limit I posted before was a mistake, I miss-read the Alternate Form and polymorph ability. I think I got the two HD crossed with the normal animal familiar's starting HD limit.