Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xvthreetwoonevx 11-29-05, 08:52 PM	'Lo everybody, I've got a game coming up on friday, and was flipping through races of the wild when the craziness that is the Arcane Hierophant decided to make itself known to me. Wild shape+Wizard spells=Happy fun fun time. Though, i'm not the best at optimization sometimes, so I was hoping y'all could come up with some suggestions for a good race for the Heirophant? Also, feat suggestions would be great too, if I don't see anything of worth i'll probably just take Natural spell, Practiced Spellcaster twice (once for wiz and once for druid) and probably Empower and Extend, or Quicken and Empower or something. Also, is it worth the caster level loss for such an amazingly huge ability that is wild shape? It seemed so to me, but sometimes I get distracted by shiny things without realizing they're crappy. :-p. Thanks in advance.
Kilo24 11-29-05, 11:41 PM	First of all, what books do you have? What build are you planning on using? A Wizard 3/Druid 4/Arcane Hierophant 10/ Mystic Theurge 3? Do you want to try to use Southern Magician (Races of Faerun), Improved Sigil: Krau as an Illumian (Races of Destiny), or Alternative Spell Source (Dragon 3xx) to qualify for AH early to minimize druid ability loss due to wizard levels? Do you want to try a druid who loses a bit of his spellcasting and abilities to get arcane spellcasting or a druid/wizard hybrid focused on advancing spellcasting with wildshape and animal companion on the side? What level are you starting at? As for races, I'd say that Strongheart Halfling is probably the best choice if you're not interested in Rashemi Elemental Summoning (Unapproachable East) or accelerated entry into AH (though Alternative Spell Source will still work). It gets you access to the Yondalla's Sense feat (+Wis to Initiative, RotW), halfling substitution levels (RotW), and gives you an extra feat like human. Human is the good old standby and is generally suggested; it gives you access to Southern Magician. Trying one of the chancier Druid races (jermlaine (MM2) or anthropomorphic bat (Savage Species) both give +6 to Wisdom for +0 LA) pays off well if you start at higher levels. As for losing caster levels for wildshape, it's not worth it if you have shapechange. At lower levels, it's great. But do remember that you're not sacrificing caster levels for wildshape, you're sacrificing a few levels in druid spellcasting and wildshape (and non wildshape druid abilities to a far greater extent) to get arcane spellcasting (or vice versa, but AHs generally are druids foremost in my mind). For feats, there are the aforementioned ones that let you get into AH early. Natural Spell is a must have. Rashemi Elemental Summoning (UE) is useful. Extend Spell is recommended. Sudden Maximize is excellent for using with Quill Blast (CD). There are a few threads that may help with the build. Arcane Hierophant builds (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=541212) and The Druid Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=465005) both should be good resources.
xvthreetwoonevx 11-30-05, 12:32 AM	Starting off at 12th, and i'm probably going Wiz3/Dru3/AH6. I can probably get my hands on almost any book, we've got quite the collection between all of us, but the ones I have on hand are PGtF, Unapproachable East (Although i'm not sure if it's 3.0, DM said only 3.5 or 3.0 with official updates), The complete series, the races of... series, Magic of Incarnum, Sandstorm, Frostburn, Heroes of battle, MM1 and 2 with the update (A pal is borrowing 3), Lords of Madness, and Weapons of Legacy. I was unaware of the Southern Magician feat, i've not used too many Faerun sources, don't like them much myself. However, it sounds intriguing. How would it get me into AH faster, higher level spells of some sort, I assume? Also, I'm looking at improved sigil:Krau, it says it works like a metamagic feat...does that actually work to get me in faster? I never noticed before. Speaking of which, does anybody know of any feats or anything that will make me dependent on just WIS or just INT to get bonus spells/DC's? Just hoping to lessen the MAD a bit. Racewise, I was looking at Jermaline, but they have an INT penalty, and since a lot of the powerful wizard spells hinge on DC's, and at 12th saves aren't so godly yet as to make using spells with DC's completely useless, so i'd like to avoid an INT penalty if at all possible. Also, where's the Strongheart Halfling from again? I've seen it before, but I can't place where. Edit:Scratch that, found it, Races of Faerun. Wow, I never noticed how much good stuff this book had in it...-pages through- I think actually Rashemi Elemental Summoning is a feat i'll take, and i'll look into sudden maximize. Thanks for your help.
JosephKell 11-30-05, 12:37 AM	Wiz 3/Dru 3 doesn't meet the BAB requirement for the Arcane Heirophant. I suggest Wizard 3/Druid 3/Beastmaster 1/Arcane Heirophant X for the first 17 levels.
xvthreetwoonevx 11-30-05, 12:47 AM	Wiz 3/Dru 3 doesn't meet the BAB requirement for the Arcane Heirophant. I suggest Wizard 3/Druid 3/Beastmaster 1/Arcane Heirophant X for the first 17 levels. It doesn't? Ahh, well crap, that's embarassing. Erm, yeah, beastmaster looks like a good choice, so I don't lose animal companion levels. Also, i'm looking at the strongheart Halfling, and maybe i'm missing something but I don't see the actual stats for it anywhere! Can somebody kindly point me to a page number, heh? Also, I see southern magician in there, that looks like an excellent idea to get into the class faster, however, I still have a BAB requirement to meet, so I won't actually get in faster, will I?
JosephKell 11-30-05, 01:05 AM	I know a guy in Living Greyhawk that has a Human Wizard 4/Druid 2/Beastmaster 1, and he is simply amazing. He has an Ape Animal Companion. Remember Share Spell allows you to share the effect of spells despite the illegal target nature of your animal companion. I.E. Enlarge Person. If you use your animal as a mount as well, you can make things even more outlandish. In the example above, when he Enlarges with the ape, it becomes Huge.
Bounces 11-30-05, 01:05 AM	If you do Wiz3Druid3BM1 You are losing accerss to vital ninth level spells on both sides of your casting. If this is okay with you then go ahead...but otherwise you need to do Wiz3Druid4AHX or Wiz4Druid3AHX depending on if you want 9th level druid spells or 9th level wizard spells.
Zathyr 11-30-05, 01:27 AM	You could also do Wiz 3/Dru 3/MT 2/AH ... and ultimately hit 9th level spells on both sides.
Kilo24 11-30-05, 01:35 AM	Druid 6 will get you the BAB requirement. You might not want to do that if you'd like to focus more on arcane spellcasting, but if you go for an accelerated spellcasting prestige class (Sublime Chord, Nar Demonbinder, Chameleon) it pays off well. I find that, if you already qualify for AH, Chameleon (RoD) is a good alternative for an arcane spellcasting class. You give up the chance of getting spells higher than 6th level and give up two levels of pure druid progression (one for Chameleon, another for a class getting you Knowledge: Arcana, Bluff, and Disguise as class skills), but you get a wonderful caster level (double your levels put in), all those nice bard spells (and arcane prestige class spells), and skills. If you don't like the Mystic Theurge's lack of any basic advantages (skills, BAB, saves), animal companion progression, and wildshape progression, it's a viable choice. Druid 6/Bard 1/Chameleon 1/ Arcane Hierophant 10/ Druid 2 (or anything else you want on the last two levels) would be a decent progression. Do note that you'll have to acquire a spellbook and spells on your own, as it doesn't grant you any automatic ones. Nar Demonbinder gives you 4th-8th level spells, but with a poor selection and it requires mucking around with cross-class skills. I wouldn't suggest it myself. Sublime Chord (CA) requires a level of bard at the very least, can only be gotten at level 11 and so will cut into a level of AH, and has a mediocre caster level, but grants bard and sorceror spells 4th-9th level. I don't have any builds up my sleeves, but I think you could work something out. Or going wizard will work as well. My chief problem with this is that you have to sink levels of Mystic Theurge into it to get 9th level spells (its major attraction). You'll qualify for it far easier than any prestige class though. Jermlaine isn't worth it with the Int penalty, you're right. It slipped my mind. Gray Elf is a good choice for the +2 Int and the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat (Dragon, grants Int to hitpoints instead of Con), but I'd stick with human myself. If you're worried about losing animal companion levels, Natural Bond (CAdv, +3 to druid level for animal companion) is a good feat. I'm tentative of Beastmaster because it doesn't progress spellcasting, but it does work. I'd prefer Druid 4/Wizard 3 myself. Correct. Southern Magician won't let you get in faster (unless you take Druid 4/Fighter 1 with the Education feat, but that would be screwing yourself over). What it does let you do is have Druid 3 qualify for the entire spellcasting component of the class. This lets you take something other than wizard 3 for the other half of the first 6 levels, allowing you to focus on druid abilities. wait to take accelerated arcane spellcasting PrCs, or take nonspellcasting classes for whatever reason. Edit: Or, of course, take Mystic Theurge.
xvthreetwoonevx 11-30-05, 01:38 AM	I'm looking at Southern Magician, and this getting into AH several levels early actually is starting to look pretty appealing. I don't really need a particular boost in ability scores, so human looks like a fine race, especially if I can get this thing. How does this look? Human Dru3/Wiz1(UA Summoner Variant)/MT3/AH5 1st-Southern Magician, Augment Summoning (from summoner variant), Hasten Spell 3rd-Sudden Maximize 6th-Rashemi Elemental Summoning 9th-Natural Spell 12th-Practiced Spellcaster(Wizard) I kinda focused on summoning, which i'm not sure is the brightest of moves as I don't have full druid casting, but I didn't really see any other direction to take that looked interesting. Possibly instead of Hasten Spell(Draconomicon, drops the casting time of summoning spells) I could go Natural Bond? IMO Hasten Spell isn't that important, but i need a metamagic feat to qualify for sudden maximize. Any more suggestions? Edit:Just saw your post, interesting idea, but will it pay off at 12th level? It does look like I get more wildshape levels (Not looking at at the post right now so I could be wrong) and that's always a plus, but by 12th don't you not get too high of arcane caster levels? Hmm...I'll sleep on it.
Kilo24 11-30-05, 02:44 AM	Excellent find with the Conjurer variant of wizard- Augment Summoning is great. I might suggest Extend Spell instead of Hasten Spell- great for Embrace the Wild for 120 ft Blindsight or Shillegagh/Brambles should you want to go melee. Consider flaws if your DM allows them. So, with your posted build you'd get 11th level druid spellcasting, 9th level wizard casting with a caster level of 12th, 8th level wildshape/animal companion, exposure to MT (poor skills, poor saves, poor hp), 8+2d8+4d4+5d6+12xCon Mod HP, 60 +12xInt skill points, and base saves of +5 Fort, +3 Ref, +12 Will. If we take the chameleon build of Druid 6/Bard 1/Chameleon 1/ Arcane Hierophant 4, you'd get 10th level druid spellcasting and wildshaping, 5th level arcane Chameleon spellcasting (all arcane 4th level spells and 10th caster level), 8+ 6d8 + 5d6 +12xCon Mod HP, 70+12xInt skill points with a better selection, and base saves of +7 Fort, +5 Ref, +13 Will (Aptitude Focus from chameleon included). At level 12, you're trading 6th level druid spells, 5th level wizard spells, a caster level boost on wizard spells and Augment Summoning for better skills (10 more skill points isn't that important- the skill list combined with able learner is), better arcane spell selection, better saves, better HP, and better druid abilities. You're trading a feat (Practiced Spellcaster) for a feat (Able Learner). In the next few levels, the Chameleon will progress better (it'll pull ahead in caster levels for one), but the wizard/mystic theurge will pull ahead at 20th level with the 9th level spells. A Sublime Chord build could compare to these builds fairly well for a third option. A quick idea (not sure it even works) is Druid 9/Bard 1/ SC1 / AH 9, which would grant 5th level spells and a better skill selection than the mystic theurge wizard. The caster level will be at 3, however.
JosephKell 11-30-05, 03:02 AM	You could also do Wiz 3/Dru 3/MT 2/AH ... and ultimately hit 9th level spells on both sides. :rolleyes: Pffh yeah, at level 20. xvthreetwoonevx: What are the odds of reaching level 20 in your game? Consider that.
Slack & Hash 11-30-05, 03:55 AM	The thing that an AH has over a full wizard or full druid is an intelligent butt-kicking animal companion. Any AH build is weaker than a strait wizard or Druid (except maybe at level 20). The only way the AH can compete is to utilize his companion which gets significant boosts with levels of AH. This is why I feel a level of beastmaster, a horrible idea in almost any normal caster build, works pretty well. If you think of the animal companion as an extention of yourself, you're a character that casts spells while making full round attacks. You're nearly the perfect gish. My pick for best race would be a small one so you can start riding your campanion from level one. I think Halfling has a couple of substitution levels that would work well with the mounted theme. I'd want to be mounted so I could ensure I was always within five feet of my campanion.
Kilo24 11-30-05, 07:57 AM	The thing that an AH has over a full wizard or full druid is an intelligent butt-kicking animal companion. Any AH build is weaker than a strait wizard or Druid (except maybe at level 20). The only way the AH can compete is to utilize his companion which gets significant boosts with levels of AH. This is why I feel a level of beastmaster, a horrible idea in almost any normal caster build, works pretty well. I disagree that any AH build is weaker than either a wizard or a druid. The dual spellcasting is almost always worth the level of spells you give up in a single class. The companion is great; however, compare +3 to druid level for animal companion with another level of wildshape and spellcasting. Reflex saves and the Fortitude boost are also nice for the level, but BAB would be the same for a Druid 3/Beastmaster 1 as for a Druid 4. You also spend a feat to get Beastmaster- a feat that could be used on Natural Bond. There are also no boosts whatsoever for animal companion past 18th level. The saves boosts, enhanced animal companion in builds involving heavy druid ability dilution (dropping it lower than level 15th druid abilities) and earlier animal companion progression are the only real reasons to take Beastmaster. In any case, you're spending a feat for the privilege of losing a level in spellcasting and wildshape when you could simply get a feat that gives the same bonus on its own. Myself, I'd be more interested in casting Animal Growth or Nature's Avatar one level earlier than letting my animal companion be +2 HD, +2 NA, +1 Str/Dex, and maybe an ability ahead. It could be worth it if you really wanted a mystic theurge build with a decent animal companion and you had already taken Natural Bond. The problems with a halfling are a. small size (no problem with wildshape) and b. no Southern Magician, probably no Rashemi Elemental Summoning (unless you can convince your DM that halflings are common in Rashemi), and no Improved Sigil: Krau (but you still could get Alternative Spell Source by shuffling around your progression). If you're not worried about those, Halfling's great. The substitution levels aren't particularly wonderful though.
Timlagor 11-30-05, 01:13 PM	I've seen strong arguments for an Int20 grey Elf for this. The point being that you get good Save DCs for your Wizard Spells which are more oriented towards offensive save-based spells and have your wisdom just high enough for all your spells where you concentrate on buffing.
xvthreetwoonevx 11-30-05, 06:07 PM	I've seen strong arguments for an Int20 grey Elf for this. The point being that you get good Save DCs for your Wizard Spells which are more oriented towards offensive save-based spells and have your wisdom just high enough for all your spells where you concentrate on buffing. Yeah, but with Grey Elf I get no Southern Magician, and qualifying early=gewd. At first glance chameleon build looked subpar, but ALL arcane spells? That means not just sor/wiz, but every class with an arcane spell list I can get spells from if I can find myself a spellbook? Schweeeet. I think i'll probably go for the chameleon-using build, as it looks pretty awesome at 12th, especailly the only losing 2 levels of WS, and I don't think we're going to get much past 12th honestly :-p. I'll switch Hasten for Extend, as it wasn't all that appealing in the first place, and Practiced Spellcaster for Able Learner. I think that should do pretty well, thanks for all your help guys.
xvthreetwoonevx 12-01-05, 06:37 PM	Heh, sorry to bring up a dead post/double post, but I was looking at the build here...why couldn't I go Dru4/Brd1/Chameleon1/AH6? Bard and Chamaelon both add .75 BAB per level so by 6th I should hit the BAB requirement to get into Arcane Heirophant, or am I overlooking something?
fnord 12-01-05, 06:48 PM	Don't know if anyone cares, given some other idiotic FAQ results, but an FAQ does say Southern Magician does not qualify you for prestige classes.
xvthreetwoonevx 12-01-05, 07:26 PM	Ooer...well that puts a wrench in the plans. Does it say anything about Improved Sigil:Krau not being able to get me in? I could go illumian if it means getting in earlier. However, if we were to disregard the FAQ, would it be possible to go dru4/brd1/cham1/AH6? I don't see anything wrong with it, other than Southern Magician.
astriemer 12-01-05, 07:42 PM	Don't know if it affects the builds, but remember that the abilities of the Chameleon cannot be used as prerequisites for anything (other than the bab, saves, skills gained).
fnord 12-01-05, 07:45 PM	Ooer...well that puts a wrench in the plans. Does it say anything about Improved Sigil:Krau not being able to get me in? I could go illumian if it means getting in earlier. However, if we were to disregard the FAQ, would it be possible to go dru4/brd1/cham1/AH6? I don't see anything wrong with it, other than Southern Magician. Is Chameleon Full BAB? If so, yes, otherwise, no. Improved Sigil:Krau still appears to work.
xvthreetwoonevx 12-01-05, 08:02 PM	Chameleon is 3/4 BAB, just like the others. Prereq for AH is +4, and if I have six levels of classes with 3/4 BAB (druid gives me +3, bard another +.75, and chameleon another +.75 for a total of 4.50, rounded down to +4) so shouldn't it work? I thought that 2 levels of two different 3/4 BAB classes gave me +1 BAB, or am I just hallucinating.
fnord 12-01-05, 08:15 PM	Chameleon is 3/4 BAB, just like the others. Prereq for AH is +4, and if I have six levels of classes with 3/4 BAB (druid gives me +3, bard another +.75, and chameleon another +.75 for a total of 4.50, rounded down to +4) so shouldn't it work? I thought that 2 levels of two different 3/4 BAB classes gave me +1 BAB, or am I just hallucinating. Usually, it doesn't work that way; you add the bonuses from each class seperately. UA has a (reasonable) varient that would make it work that way, though, if it's allowed.
AramilWindwalker 12-01-05, 09:01 PM	Oh, for race: Pick A Goblin. I've played 2 goblin arcane heirpphants and both kicked so much behind, the build for each was(each at varying levels of completion): Druid3/Wizard3/Mystic theurge2/Arcane Heirphant10/Mystic theurge 2, although I';ve realized that i myself am not very interested in 9th level spells, nor in wildshape, but I digress,this build has both, and with natural bond you have a compaion at level 17 and a familiar at level 13, hello intelligent T-rex, although mine rode advanced leopards and wolves and such, I liked using wraithstrike and imp blink for my leopards full attack on a charge flat-footed touch attacks, plus all the lovely sharable buffs from both classes.(barkskin, mage armor, shield, the ability upping spells, polymorph, greater invis, greater blink, the list goes on...)