Best Rainbow Servant builds? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Rainbow Servant builds? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BarbeChenue
12-28-05, 03:10 AM Warning: This thread assumes that Rainbow Servant only grants 6 spellcaster levels throughout the PrC.

What are the best Rainbow Servant builds out there?

Primary Goal: Being able to cast 9th level spells from both the Cleric's spell list and at least one Arcane Spellcaster's lists.

Secondary Goal: Being a damn fine spellcaster, overall. :cool:

Tertiary Goal: Versatility.

Books Allowed/etc: Anything goes, but assume a normal sane, but open-minded, DM.
20goingon1232
12-28-05, 03:49 AM Warning: This thread assumes that Rainbow Servant only grants 6 spellcaster levels throughout the PrC.

What are the best Rainbow Servant builds out there?

Primary Goal: Being able to cast 9th level spells from both the Cleric's spell list and at least one Arcane Spellcaster's lists.

Secondary Goal: Being a damn fine spellcaster, overall. :cool:

Tertiary Goal: Versatility.

Books Allowed/etc: Anything goes, but assume a normal sane, but open-minded, DM.

With Practiced Spellcaster, just about any straight arcane caster build should be OK.
LordofProcrastination
12-28-05, 03:59 AM Ah, I can't help myself. A winged beholder in a frilly rainbow bikini is too hilarious to pass up.

Cleric 1/Psion 5/Beholder Mage 2/Cerebremancer 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Silver Pyromancer 1

Casts 9th level Cleric and Sor/Wiz spells, has a caster level of 18, and access to the entire Paladin list to boot. Feel free to switch out Psion for Psychic Warrior for a little more martial prowess, if you like.
Llochlyn
12-28-05, 07:53 AM erm... Well, if your DM rules it works with Mystic Theurge after level 10 (being both arcane and divine caster... I really don't know if it should work or not... might not be something sane :D ), then you can make up for the level loss

Wiz 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 5 gives you a wizard CL of 21

But I feel this is terribly wrong
AviLazar
12-28-05, 09:22 AM erm... Well, if your DM rules it works with Mystic Theurge after level 10 (being both arcane and divine caster... I really don't know if it should work or not... might not be something sane :D ), then you can make up for the level loss

Wiz 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 5 gives you a wizard CL of 21

But I feel this is terribly wrong

OK, you really gotta understand this it DOESNT! Rainbow servant does not give you, at any point, a second spellcasting class. It enhances your already existing spellcasting class (arcane). You only have ONE spellcasting class, who happens to be able to cast both arcane and divine spells.
Pick up a level of cleric and you are good to go with theurge.

EDIT:3 levels of cleric
Llochlyn
12-28-05, 09:56 AM Quoting myself : But I feel this is terribly WRONG

WRONG WRONG WRONG

Yet, as there is NO CLEAR DEFINITION of what is a divine caster over an arcane caster, SOME might rule it contrary to what YOU AND I are thinking... I'd rule it as a NO too !

I hope I make myself clear... But there are divergent opinions around this, and please, as long as there is no rule text put in the spotlight that clarifies what is arcane and divine caster, it's a blur zone where DMs are free to rule, 95% say no, 5% yes, but respect those 5 (wich, i repeat, I'm not a part of)

Thank you... Continue this on the ancient thread about this subject if you want, but here, we were asked for builds...

On to builds :

Initiate of the sevenfold veil as a nice rainbowy flavor, thus a wizard 5/Rainbow servant 10/Initiate of the veil 7 (being level 22 but hey, world doesn't stop turning at level 20) seems amusing

Edit : read your main post again. You are asking for up to 9th level cleric spells, wich seem hard to achieve with those 4 caster levels lost...

The only way I think you can achieve this is via apostle of peace...
But losing even more casting levels is gonna suck... Doesn't work that well...
AviLazar
12-28-05, 10:42 AM Where does it say that a rainbow servant gives you an extra spellcasting CLASS???
It doesn't, so it is not ruling differently. There are other prestige classes that will give an arcane caster the ability to cast divine spells (more limited then rainbow servant, but still divine spells) - that does not mean the character has two spellcasting classes.

Rainbow servant adds to the existing arcane spellcasting class a +1 level.

Really the only divergent opinion is your opinion, and even you do not agree with it.

Just because 5% rule yes does not make it RAW. Hell, my DM rules that all metamagic feats are restricted to 3/day, that doesn't make it correct as far as the RAW.

Initiate is just plain nice period.
NineInchNall
12-28-05, 12:11 PM AviLazar, drop it; your arguments (cf. False Dichotomy) are weak. See Caelic's response for a good argument against it.

Anyhoo, aside from beholder mage, we've only got two fast arcane advancement PrCs, IIRC: Nar Demonbinder and Sublime Chord. So hmmm.

Let's try it with the Subby. I'll assume Able Learner at first level. Bard 1/Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 4/Sublime Chord 4/Rainbow Servant 6. I think that's about as good as the Subby will let us be, which would be 8th level spells, IIRC.

As the Nar Demonbinder only gets 8th level spells, it's an automatic tie at best.

This is, of course, if you don't want to use Thought Bottle tricks.
Llochlyn
12-28-05, 01:02 PM Let's see another good use of the Rainbow servant here : extra domains. The last comes at level 7, so dropping the class right when we get it we can get a CL 17.

That, alas, excludes access to cleric spells, wich is the best feature of the class.

I'm also sure there are better ways for an arcane caster to achieve extra domains, and rainbow servant's, while nice, aren't the best out there.
AviLazar
12-28-05, 01:18 PM AviLazar, drop it; your arguments (cf. False Dichotomy) are weak. See Caelic's response for a good argument against it.

No i won't. But nice way to go with the SAT word there. Where is Caelics argument?

Show me where it says Rainbow servant gives you an extra spellcasting class and then I will buy the MT combo trick for it.
Fwib
12-28-05, 01:32 PM ....This is, of course, if you don't want to use Thought Bottle tricks.Won't work, we're assuming a sane DM :)
Fwib
12-28-05, 01:34 PM No i won't. But nice way to go with the SAT word there. Where is Caelics argument?

Show me where it says Rainbow servant gives you an extra spellcasting class and then I will buy the MT combo trick for it.Where does it say that you need two casting classes for Mystic Theurge?
Abulafia
12-28-05, 02:03 PM Where does it say that you need two casting classes for Mystic Theurge?
It doesn't -- all you need is the ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells, which Rainbow Servant (and thoughtful spell selection) allows. So you can meet the prereqs for MT just fine.

However, MT's main attribute is that it simultaneously advances spellcasting in existing arcane and divine caster levels. Where are the divine caster levels you're advancing?

I think Wiz 5/Cleric 1/Rainbow Servant 10/MT 4 should work okay, but I don't see what the MT levels would grant you if you didn't have existing divine spellcasting levels.
Fwib
12-28-05, 02:15 PM It doesn't -- all you need is the ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells, which Rainbow Servant (and thoughtful spell selection) allows. So you can meet the prereqs for MT just fine.

However, MT's main attribute is that it simultaneously advances spellcasting in existing arcane and divine caster levels. Where are the divine caster levels you're advancing?

I think Wiz 5/Cleric 1/Rainbow Servant 10/MT 4 should work okay, but I don't see what the MT levels would grant you if you didn't have existing divine spellcasting levels.Oh yeah, agreed, it is problematic what constitutes a 'divine spellcasting class' and it is problematic how to parse the MT +spellcasting if you have only one caster progression and it is both arcane and divine.
BarbeChenue
12-28-05, 03:00 PM I don't think this argument belongs to this thread. I'm not saying it's off-topic, because it's definately not, but it's clearly not something most reasonable DMs would accept. Even I personally wouldn't accept this combo as a DM, and I consider myself pretty lenient. I'd even go as far as accepting the Beholder Mage trick before the Mystic Theurge's, but this is irrevelant to the topic at hand.

On the other hand, fast progressing arcane spellcasting PrCs do belong here, so let's keep it at that. :) Thanks to all contributors thus far! Perhaps someone will find a competitor to the Beholder Mage?
NineInchNall
12-28-05, 03:08 PM I don't think this argument belongs to this thread. I'm not saying it's off-topic, because it's definately not, but it's clearly not something most reasonable DMs would accept. Even I personally wouldn't accept this combo as a DM, and I consider myself pretty lenient. I'd even go as far as accepting the Beholder Mage trick before the Mystic Theurge's, but this is irrevelant to the topic at hand.

Agreed, so I'll just point people to the appropriate thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556632)

No i won't. But nice way to go with the SAT word there. Where is Caelics argument?

It's in Llochlyn's previous thread on the RS and MT interaction. It's near the end, IIRC. Right here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8065472&postcount=21)

Where does it say that you need two casting classes for Mystic Theurge?

Hence, a false dichotomy. *shrug* Caelic's pointing us to the actual text and reminding us of the way logical ands work was sufficient to shoot down the double advancement argument.

Oh yeah, agreed, it is problematic what constitutes a 'divine spellcasting class' ...

Yup. It's great when we try to have RAW discussions about things that are not defined in the rules.
AviLazar
12-28-05, 04:15 PM It doesn't -- all you need is the ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells, which Rainbow Servant (and thoughtful spell selection) allows. So you can meet the prereqs for MT just fine.

However, MT's main attribute is that it simultaneously advances spellcasting in existing arcane and divine caster levels. Where are the divine caster levels you're advancing?

I think Wiz 5/Cleric 1/Rainbow Servant 10/MT 4 should work okay, but I don't see what the MT levels would grant you if you didn't have existing divine spellcasting levels.

I never said you couldn't qualify for the MT with a wizard/rainbow servant 10... i just said you couldn't apply the +1 spellcasting to each class. What you guys are saying is apply +1 to the wizard and +1 to the RS. RS is not a stand alone spell caster, it requires for you to have an arcane spell casting class which you apply its numbers to that. When you get mystic theurge you are adding it to your wizard levels, not your RS levels. But the rules probably dont touch that notion.
The rules do however say "+1 to arcane spellcasting class/+1 to divine spellcasting class"...show me where it says the RS adds a divine spell casting class.
I think Wiz5/clr 1/rs10/mt 4 will be fine also. You apply the MT bonuses to your wizard and your clr levels...your RS spell bonuses apply to your wiz. On your wizard spell sheet you can cast all divine spells and your wizard spells. On the cleric spell sheet you can cast as a 5th level cleric.
PhoenixInferno
12-28-05, 04:30 PM AviLazar, drop it; your arguments (cf. False Dichotomy) are weak. See Caelic's response for a good argument against it.
Simultaneously, there's no need to be a "logic snob" - not everyone is a trained logican/debater/philosopher.
Fwib
12-28-05, 04:36 PM Simultaneously, there's no need to be a "logic snob" - not everyone is a trained logican/debater/philosopher.awww... c'mon, I'm sure that most of us knew what false dichotomy means (and looking it up, I find that 'cf.' means 'look it up' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cf.)) :) (and also 'compare with' - sorta)
AviLazar
12-28-05, 04:43 PM Simultaneously, there's no need to be a "logic snob" - not everyone is a trained logican/debater/philosopher.

Thanks Phoenix...I was a comm major and happen to know what it means (and there is google), but I have to agree I do dislike people flaunting big words just to flaunt it and sound impressive...especially when they do things like quote someone without actually showing the quote :)
PhoenixInferno
12-28-05, 04:47 PM awww... c'mon, I'm sure that most of us knew what false dichotomy means (and looking it up, I find that 'cf.' means 'look it up' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cf.)) :) (and also 'compare with' - sorta)
I know what it means. That is not my point - basically, NineInchNail told AviLazar to talk to the hand. Why throw around $5 dollar words/ideas when a 25 cent answer is sufficient? All he had to say was "Caelic does a good job of countering the argument here." I personally hate it whenever rules discussions turn into Logic class. That said, I think Caelic did a good job of answering the argument.

Of course, me accusing anyone of snobbery at the CO Boards? Pot, meet Kettle.
Llochlyn
12-28-05, 04:55 PM AviLazar Fwib Phoenix inferno

Build people ! Build !!!

There will be no match for the Beholder Mage class, really... Both for power and... erm... good lookings I'd say

Fast Arcane caster progressions :

- Nar Demonbinder -> not that good, in alignment... Up to lvl 8 spells, wich we can easily achieve through normal Wiz 5/Rs10/X5

- Beholder mage -> powerful, but requires a transformation and, IMHO, you have to wait until level 11 to meet the HD requirement to polymorph into a Beholder

- Sublime chord -> has tight requirements, but doesn't stretch rules

Fast Divine caster progressions :

- Apostle of Peace : Works ok, you have to be ascetic though

- Ur Priest ; Evil Evil Evil... too bad

The huge problem here, is the aiming at being mainly a divine caster. As you need level 3 arcane spells to enter, I guess you'd be better of with a sublime chord build, as suggested by Nine Inch Nails
Fwib
12-28-05, 04:58 PM I know what it means. That is not my point - basically, NineInchNail told AviLazar to talk to the hand. Why throw around $5 dollar words/ideas when a 25 cent answer is sufficient? All he had to say was "Caelic does a good job of countering the argument here." I personally hate it whenever rules discussions turn into Logic class. That said, I think Caelic did a good job of answering the argument.

Of course, me accusing anyone of snobbery at the CO Boards? Pot, meet Kettle.the trouble is: as I have said (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8102768&postcount=31) on the other thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556632), showing that only advancing one level of casting satisifies the wording doesn't put the argument to bed - since adding 2 levels satisifes it too. (unless someone comes along and uses the logical handwaving you seem to dislike to prove me wrong)
Caelic
12-28-05, 05:13 PM the trouble is: as I have said (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8102768&postcount=31) on the other thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556632), showing that only advancing one level of casting satisifies the wording doesn't put the argument to bed - since adding 2 levels satisifes it too. (unless someone comes along and uses the logical handwaving you seem to dislike to prove me wrong)

There, Fwib, we must fall back on a key premise of the game: spells, classes, and so forth grant exactly what they say they grant and no more.

Fly doesn't grant you an armor bonus, even though it doesn't say that it DOESN'T grant an armor bonus. Master Thrower doesn't grant spellcasting, even though it doesn't say it doesn't grant spellcasting.

Mystic Theurge doesn't grant you a two CL increase in one class because it doesn't SAY it grants you a two CL increase in one class. It gives you a one CL increase.
Llochlyn
12-28-05, 05:23 PM Hey Fwib dug out the old thread just to continue discussion, please...
could we stop littering on BarbeChenue's thread and pollute mine (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556632) instead, wich was intended for that ?
Fwib
12-28-05, 05:45 PM Hey Fwib dug out the old thread just to continue discussion, please...
could we stop littering on BarbeChenue's thread and pollute mine (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556632) instead, wich was intended for that ?I dont think it is pollution - to get the best RS builds, which is what the OP asked for, it helps to be clear on how other PrCs interact with RS - but yes, I am posting on that thread too, as noted above.

[edit]that apart, I will aim to put my 'RS/MT function' posts on that thread now rather than here.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BarbeChenue 12-28-05, 03:10 AM	Warning: This thread assumes that Rainbow Servant only grants 6 spellcaster levels throughout the PrC. What are the best Rainbow Servant builds out there? Primary Goal: Being able to cast 9th level spells from both the Cleric's spell list and at least one Arcane Spellcaster's lists. Secondary Goal: Being a damn fine spellcaster, overall. :cool: Tertiary Goal: Versatility. Books Allowed/etc: Anything goes, but assume a normal sane, but open-minded, DM.
20goingon1232 12-28-05, 03:49 AM	Warning: This thread assumes that Rainbow Servant only grants 6 spellcaster levels throughout the PrC. What are the best Rainbow Servant builds out there? Primary Goal: Being able to cast 9th level spells from both the Cleric's spell list and at least one Arcane Spellcaster's lists. Secondary Goal: Being a damn fine spellcaster, overall. :cool: Tertiary Goal: Versatility. Books Allowed/etc: Anything goes, but assume a normal sane, but open-minded, DM. With Practiced Spellcaster, just about any straight arcane caster build should be OK.
LordofProcrastination 12-28-05, 03:59 AM	Ah, I can't help myself. A winged beholder in a frilly rainbow bikini is too hilarious to pass up. Cleric 1/Psion 5/Beholder Mage 2/Cerebremancer 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Silver Pyromancer 1 Casts 9th level Cleric and Sor/Wiz spells, has a caster level of 18, and access to the entire Paladin list to boot. Feel free to switch out Psion for Psychic Warrior for a little more martial prowess, if you like.
Llochlyn 12-28-05, 07:53 AM	erm... Well, if your DM rules it works with Mystic Theurge after level 10 (being both arcane and divine caster... I really don't know if it should work or not... might not be something sane :D ), then you can make up for the level loss Wiz 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 5 gives you a wizard CL of 21 But I feel this is terribly wrong
AviLazar 12-28-05, 09:22 AM	erm... Well, if your DM rules it works with Mystic Theurge after level 10 (being both arcane and divine caster... I really don't know if it should work or not... might not be something sane :D ), then you can make up for the level loss Wiz 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 5 gives you a wizard CL of 21 But I feel this is terribly wrong OK, you really gotta understand this it DOESNT! Rainbow servant does not give you, at any point, a second spellcasting class. It enhances your already existing spellcasting class (arcane). You only have ONE spellcasting class, who happens to be able to cast both arcane and divine spells. Pick up a level of cleric and you are good to go with theurge. EDIT:3 levels of cleric
Llochlyn 12-28-05, 09:56 AM	Quoting myself : But I feel this is terribly WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG Yet, as there is NO CLEAR DEFINITION of what is a divine caster over an arcane caster, SOME might rule it contrary to what YOU AND I are thinking... I'd rule it as a NO too ! I hope I make myself clear... But there are divergent opinions around this, and please, as long as there is no rule text put in the spotlight that clarifies what is arcane and divine caster, it's a blur zone where DMs are free to rule, 95% say no, 5% yes, but respect those 5 (wich, i repeat, I'm not a part of) Thank you... Continue this on the ancient thread about this subject if you want, but here, we were asked for builds... On to builds : Initiate of the sevenfold veil as a nice rainbowy flavor, thus a wizard 5/Rainbow servant 10/Initiate of the veil 7 (being level 22 but hey, world doesn't stop turning at level 20) seems amusing Edit : read your main post again. You are asking for up to 9th level cleric spells, wich seem hard to achieve with those 4 caster levels lost... The only way I think you can achieve this is via apostle of peace... But losing even more casting levels is gonna suck... Doesn't work that well...
AviLazar 12-28-05, 10:42 AM	Where does it say that a rainbow servant gives you an extra spellcasting CLASS??? It doesn't, so it is not ruling differently. There are other prestige classes that will give an arcane caster the ability to cast divine spells (more limited then rainbow servant, but still divine spells) - that does not mean the character has two spellcasting classes. Rainbow servant adds to the existing arcane spellcasting class a +1 level. Really the only divergent opinion is your opinion, and even you do not agree with it. Just because 5% rule yes does not make it RAW. Hell, my DM rules that all metamagic feats are restricted to 3/day, that doesn't make it correct as far as the RAW. Initiate is just plain nice period.
NineInchNall 12-28-05, 12:11 PM	AviLazar, drop it; your arguments (cf. False Dichotomy) are weak. See Caelic's response for a good argument against it. Anyhoo, aside from beholder mage, we've only got two fast arcane advancement PrCs, IIRC: Nar Demonbinder and Sublime Chord. So hmmm. Let's try it with the Subby. I'll assume Able Learner at first level. Bard 1/Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 4/Sublime Chord 4/Rainbow Servant 6. I think that's about as good as the Subby will let us be, which would be 8th level spells, IIRC. As the Nar Demonbinder only gets 8th level spells, it's an automatic tie at best. This is, of course, if you don't want to use Thought Bottle tricks.
Llochlyn 12-28-05, 01:02 PM	Let's see another good use of the Rainbow servant here : extra domains. The last comes at level 7, so dropping the class right when we get it we can get a CL 17. That, alas, excludes access to cleric spells, wich is the best feature of the class. I'm also sure there are better ways for an arcane caster to achieve extra domains, and rainbow servant's, while nice, aren't the best out there.
AviLazar 12-28-05, 01:18 PM	AviLazar, drop it; your arguments (cf. False Dichotomy) are weak. See Caelic's response for a good argument against it. No i won't. But nice way to go with the SAT word there. Where is Caelics argument? Show me where it says Rainbow servant gives you an extra spellcasting class and then I will buy the MT combo trick for it.
Fwib 12-28-05, 01:32 PM	....This is, of course, if you don't want to use Thought Bottle tricks.Won't work, we're assuming a sane DM :)
Fwib 12-28-05, 01:34 PM	No i won't. But nice way to go with the SAT word there. Where is Caelics argument? Show me where it says Rainbow servant gives you an extra spellcasting class and then I will buy the MT combo trick for it.Where does it say that you need two casting classes for Mystic Theurge?
Abulafia 12-28-05, 02:03 PM	Where does it say that you need two casting classes for Mystic Theurge? It doesn't -- all you need is the ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells, which Rainbow Servant (and thoughtful spell selection) allows. So you can meet the prereqs for MT just fine. However, MT's main attribute is that it simultaneously advances spellcasting in existing arcane and divine caster levels. Where are the divine caster levels you're advancing? I think Wiz 5/Cleric 1/Rainbow Servant 10/MT 4 should work okay, but I don't see what the MT levels would grant you if you didn't have existing divine spellcasting levels.
Fwib 12-28-05, 02:15 PM	It doesn't -- all you need is the ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells, which Rainbow Servant (and thoughtful spell selection) allows. So you can meet the prereqs for MT just fine. However, MT's main attribute is that it simultaneously advances spellcasting in existing arcane and divine caster levels. Where are the divine caster levels you're advancing? I think Wiz 5/Cleric 1/Rainbow Servant 10/MT 4 should work okay, but I don't see what the MT levels would grant you if you didn't have existing divine spellcasting levels.Oh yeah, agreed, it is problematic what constitutes a 'divine spellcasting class' and it is problematic how to parse the MT +spellcasting if you have only one caster progression and it is both arcane and divine.
BarbeChenue 12-28-05, 03:00 PM	I don't think this argument belongs to this thread. I'm not saying it's off-topic, because it's definately not, but it's clearly not something most reasonable DMs would accept. Even I personally wouldn't accept this combo as a DM, and I consider myself pretty lenient. I'd even go as far as accepting the Beholder Mage trick before the Mystic Theurge's, but this is irrevelant to the topic at hand. On the other hand, fast progressing arcane spellcasting PrCs do belong here, so let's keep it at that. :) Thanks to all contributors thus far! Perhaps someone will find a competitor to the Beholder Mage?
NineInchNall 12-28-05, 03:08 PM	I don't think this argument belongs to this thread. I'm not saying it's off-topic, because it's definately not, but it's clearly not something most reasonable DMs would accept. Even I personally wouldn't accept this combo as a DM, and I consider myself pretty lenient. I'd even go as far as accepting the Beholder Mage trick before the Mystic Theurge's, but this is irrevelant to the topic at hand. Agreed, so I'll just point people to the appropriate thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556632) No i won't. But nice way to go with the SAT word there. Where is Caelics argument? It's in Llochlyn's previous thread on the RS and MT interaction. It's near the end, IIRC. Right here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8065472&postcount=21) Where does it say that you need two casting classes for Mystic Theurge? Hence, a false dichotomy. shrug Caelic's pointing us to the actual text and reminding us of the way logical ands work was sufficient to shoot down the double advancement argument. Oh yeah, agreed, it is problematic what constitutes a 'divine spellcasting class' ... Yup. It's great when we try to have RAW discussions about things that are not defined in the rules.
AviLazar 12-28-05, 04:15 PM	It doesn't -- all you need is the ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells, which Rainbow Servant (and thoughtful spell selection) allows. So you can meet the prereqs for MT just fine. However, MT's main attribute is that it simultaneously advances spellcasting in existing arcane and divine caster levels. Where are the divine caster levels you're advancing? I think Wiz 5/Cleric 1/Rainbow Servant 10/MT 4 should work okay, but I don't see what the MT levels would grant you if you didn't have existing divine spellcasting levels. I never said you couldn't qualify for the MT with a wizard/rainbow servant 10... i just said you couldn't apply the +1 spellcasting to each class. What you guys are saying is apply +1 to the wizard and +1 to the RS. RS is not a stand alone spell caster, it requires for you to have an arcane spell casting class which you apply its numbers to that. When you get mystic theurge you are adding it to your wizard levels, not your RS levels. But the rules probably dont touch that notion. The rules do however say "+1 to arcane spellcasting class/+1 to divine spellcasting class"...show me where it says the RS adds a divine spell casting class. I think Wiz5/clr 1/rs10/mt 4 will be fine also. You apply the MT bonuses to your wizard and your clr levels...your RS spell bonuses apply to your wiz. On your wizard spell sheet you can cast all divine spells and your wizard spells. On the cleric spell sheet you can cast as a 5th level cleric.
PhoenixInferno 12-28-05, 04:30 PM	AviLazar, drop it; your arguments (cf. False Dichotomy) are weak. See Caelic's response for a good argument against it. Simultaneously, there's no need to be a "logic snob" - not everyone is a trained logican/debater/philosopher.
Fwib 12-28-05, 04:36 PM	Simultaneously, there's no need to be a "logic snob" - not everyone is a trained logican/debater/philosopher.awww... c'mon, I'm sure that most of us knew what false dichotomy means (and looking it up, I find that 'cf.' means 'look it up' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cf.)) :) (and also 'compare with' - sorta)
AviLazar 12-28-05, 04:43 PM	Simultaneously, there's no need to be a "logic snob" - not everyone is a trained logican/debater/philosopher. Thanks Phoenix...I was a comm major and happen to know what it means (and there is google), but I have to agree I do dislike people flaunting big words just to flaunt it and sound impressive...especially when they do things like quote someone without actually showing the quote :)
PhoenixInferno 12-28-05, 04:47 PM	awww... c'mon, I'm sure that most of us knew what false dichotomy means (and looking it up, I find that 'cf.' means 'look it up' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cf.)) :) (and also 'compare with' - sorta) I know what it means. That is not my point - basically, NineInchNail told AviLazar to talk to the hand. Why throw around $5 dollar words/ideas when a 25 cent answer is sufficient? All he had to say was "Caelic does a good job of countering the argument here." I personally hate it whenever rules discussions turn into Logic class. That said, I think Caelic did a good job of answering the argument. Of course, me accusing anyone of snobbery at the CO Boards? Pot, meet Kettle.
Llochlyn 12-28-05, 04:55 PM	AviLazar Fwib Phoenix inferno Build people ! Build !!! There will be no match for the Beholder Mage class, really... Both for power and... erm... good lookings I'd say Fast Arcane caster progressions : - Nar Demonbinder -> not that good, in alignment... Up to lvl 8 spells, wich we can easily achieve through normal Wiz 5/Rs10/X5 - Beholder mage -> powerful, but requires a transformation and, IMHO, you have to wait until level 11 to meet the HD requirement to polymorph into a Beholder - Sublime chord -> has tight requirements, but doesn't stretch rules Fast Divine caster progressions : - Apostle of Peace : Works ok, you have to be ascetic though - Ur Priest ; Evil Evil Evil... too bad The huge problem here, is the aiming at being mainly a divine caster. As you need level 3 arcane spells to enter, I guess you'd be better of with a sublime chord build, as suggested by Nine Inch Nails
Fwib 12-28-05, 04:58 PM	I know what it means. That is not my point - basically, NineInchNail told AviLazar to talk to the hand. Why throw around $5 dollar words/ideas when a 25 cent answer is sufficient? All he had to say was "Caelic does a good job of countering the argument here." I personally hate it whenever rules discussions turn into Logic class. That said, I think Caelic did a good job of answering the argument. Of course, me accusing anyone of snobbery at the CO Boards? Pot, meet Kettle.the trouble is: as I have said (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8102768&postcount=31) on the other thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556632), showing that only advancing one level of casting satisifies the wording doesn't put the argument to bed - since adding 2 levels satisifes it too. (unless someone comes along and uses the logical handwaving you seem to dislike to prove me wrong)
Caelic 12-28-05, 05:13 PM	the trouble is: as I have said (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8102768&postcount=31) on the other thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556632), showing that only advancing one level of casting satisifies the wording doesn't put the argument to bed - since adding 2 levels satisifes it too. (unless someone comes along and uses the logical handwaving you seem to dislike to prove me wrong) There, Fwib, we must fall back on a key premise of the game: spells, classes, and so forth grant exactly what they say they grant and no more. Fly doesn't grant you an armor bonus, even though it doesn't say that it DOESN'T grant an armor bonus. Master Thrower doesn't grant spellcasting, even though it doesn't say it doesn't grant spellcasting. Mystic Theurge doesn't grant you a two CL increase in one class because it doesn't SAY it grants you a two CL increase in one class. It gives you a one CL increase.
Llochlyn 12-28-05, 05:23 PM	Hey Fwib dug out the old thread just to continue discussion, please... could we stop littering on BarbeChenue's thread and pollute mine (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556632) instead, wich was intended for that ?
Fwib 12-28-05, 05:45 PM	Hey Fwib dug out the old thread just to continue discussion, please... could we stop littering on BarbeChenue's thread and pollute mine (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=556632) instead, wich was intended for that ?I dont think it is pollution - to get the best RS builds, which is what the OP asked for, it helps to be clear on how other PrCs interact with RS - but yes, I am posting on that thread too, as noted above. [edit]that apart, I will aim to put my 'RS/MT function' posts on that thread now rather than here.