Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eye_of_Vecna 07-18-05, 09:57 PM	We're going retro here in our D&D group, replaying old groups and old adventures updated for the 3rd edition game. I'm updating two of my old characters, one was a thief (rogue) and the other a fighter. I get to start these characters at 9th level. Eventually, we will be playing in an epic setting, so I want them to be tough. Virtually all books are allowed (except Weapons of Legacy and DMG II), but no evil characters, no non-standard races (that means nothing from a monster manual or Savage Species). Our DM tends to go all out to kill/hobble/harass the characters of players who abuse his generosity with such min/max masterpieces like the Cheater of Mystra, so nothing that will make him mad. It's not fun having your uber-charger continually conscripted to undertake this and that mission, all off-camera. Still, they can be bad-asses, just not anything that goes against the spirit of the game. What I would like is some advice: what's the best 20th-level rogue-type character and the best 20th-level fighter type character. We fight lots of undead, do lots of traveling, and villains tend to be optimized NPCs; and while it's great to have a sneak attack rogue that does +XXXd6, it'll be of no use when we inevitably confront Aath the Eternal (a lich) or his undead minions. And a fighter who virtually always misses his Reflex and Will saves will curl up and die against the Archwizard Garland. I just can't decide whether to be a Daggerspell mage for my rogue, or what. And I've never built a tank human fighter, so I wouldn't know where to begin there. Please help. They used to be bad-asses. I don't want their 3rd edition counterparts to be lame.
X-Codes 07-18-05, 10:11 PM	To start: Rogue 7/Temple Raider of Olidammara 2 To end: Rogue 10/Temple Raider of Olidammara 10 Take a feat called Razing Strike. It lets you sacrifice a divine spell and, in exchange, deal additional damage to an undead creature equal to your sneak damage + 1d6 per level of the spell sacced. If you also blend in arcane casting, you will deal the same amount of damage to a construct if you sac an arcane spell. You will get it at 12th level with the above build, but thats very basic. I put it up because Temple Raider, as far as I know, is one of two non-evil PrC's that gets both divine spells and sneak attacks. The other is Black Flame Zealot, but that doesn't exactly sound appropriate for this character idea.
rilem 07-18-05, 10:35 PM	Rogue8/SoldierofLight2/SkullClanHunter10. BAB +15, Saves 8/13/9, Cha to Saves, Turn undead, Sneak 5d6, sneak attack undead, bunch of immunities. Skullclan Hunter (MiniHandbook) lets you sneak-attack undead, and eventually gives you immunity to their various attacks. 6 skill pts per level. Very nice. Soldier of Light (D&Dgods) gets Divine Grace and Turn Undead in two levels. This is a bit of a red flag for DMs (It's clearly better than Blackguard or Holy Liberator) but there it is. Oh, and smite Undead. Alternate version: Rogue4/Pal4/SkullclanHunter10/PrC2.
Faroth 07-18-05, 10:42 PM	You forgot the Shadowbane Stalker and Inquisitor (Complete Divine). But... they need to be Lawful Good. If you want to go the rogue way, the stalker is your choice (6 skills and +3d6 SA at level 10) Rogue4/Cleric1/Shadowbane Stalker 4 Rogue5/Cleric5/Shadowbane Stalker 10 Edit: If you want Razing Strike, maybe you could change a level of rogue for wizard or sorcerer to burn arcane spells. see ya later
Snow Savant 07-18-05, 10:48 PM	I'll echo Rilem's excellent suggestions. In addition, it's a fallacy to think that high-level Rogues cannot function efficiently in undead-heavy environments. "Charisma Rogues" can effectively act as spellcasters via UMD usage of high-level spell scrolls and magic staves. In addition, they can use their prodigious scores in Bluff or Diplomacy to "recruit" assistance from effective combatants outside the party. In essence, using a high Bluff/Diplo to create ad hoc cohorts ala the Leadership feat. This entails some creative chicanery and RP outside of combat, but that's what an optimized Rogue should be doing anyway .... using and abusing *skills*. If you use Rilem's Rogue/SoL/SH build and max out key skills like UMD and Bluff, you can also effectively use that magic staff of yours in TWF mode (with TWF and Imp. TWF feats) ... or to cast awesome spells. In addition, you get Divine Might damage add-on if you chose the Power Attack/Divine Might feat combo. The Staff can also be used for Power Attack obviously.
Eye_of_Vecna 07-19-05, 01:54 AM	It's not really undead-heavy. I just wanted some help to build a rogue or fighter who isn't a one-trick pony. Definately, I don't want to have might guys standing on the sidelines when fighting any particular common type of monster.
Faroth 07-19-05, 10:02 AM	It's not really undead-heavy. I just wanted some help to build a rogue or fighter who isn't a one-trick pony. Definately, I don't want to have might guys standing on the sidelines when fighting any particular common type of monster. With the Shadowbane Stalker you have 6 skills and stealth skills and divine spells. The only problem is the alignment. Razing Strike is a feat that you should consider, is a "in case of". see u