Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragonChildX 04-17-06, 01:46 PM	Best rogue build from 1st to 20th level without dipping into another class? Whats the best feats to take? Any Ideas people?
Seeker of Truth 04-17-06, 02:06 PM	Not enough info in this post to reply. What kind of rogue do you want and what rules (i.e. books) are you playing with. IMO you're top few choices for race will be Human, Changeling, Halfling, Whisper gnome, and pixie. But it's really hard to comment without knowing what kind of rogue you wan't. do you wan't a rogue that 1) Emphasizes skills over comat effectivness. 2) Focuses on dealing massive sneak attacks and is capable of standing toe to toe with opponents that aren't dropped by the first volley. 3) Ranged attack focused rogue that usually makes a single attack and then dissapears into the shadows. 4) Mobility focused rogue who tends to use spring attack to deliver attacks, but then retreat back before his opponents have a chance to fully retaliate. 5) Something else. As usual it's probably better if you post a build you're thinking of and ask how to make it better.
DragonChildX 04-17-06, 02:51 PM	Actually I didnt mean to hit the post button yet The reason im thinking of sticking with rogue only is because im in the Worlds Largest Dungeon and will need Disable device, Hide, Move silently, Search, Spot and Open locks as maxed as I can. But I want to focus his feats into combat so hes not useless. Now I had to take a diplomatic feat at 1st level and cant reverse it since its been in use. Im a second level rogue. Heres what my character looks like now. Bornin Duren'thal Height: 5'3 Weight: 143 Race: Half Drow Class: Rogue Level: 2 Alignment: Neutral (Good Tendancies) Languages: Undercommon, Common, Drow, Drow Sign Language, Goblin Strength: 12 (+1) Dexterity: 20 (+5) Constitution: 13 (+1) Intelligence: 18 (+4) Wisdom: 14 (+2) Charisma: 10 Level: 1 Base Attack: +0 (+1 Melee, +5 Ranged) Armor Class: 18 - Studded Leather (+3/+5) Saves: Fortitude: 1 Reflex: 7 Will: 1 Feats: Sign Of The Crown Skills: Ballance: 7 Bluff: 5 Climb: 4 Decipher Script: 6 Diplomacy: 6 Listen: 5 Move Silently: 9 Hide: 9 Intimidate: 5 Tumble: 8 Open Locks: 8 Search: 9 Sence Motive: 4 Spot: 5 Use Magic Device: 4 Disable Device: 7 Weapons 2X Rapiers Short Bow (60 arrows) 5X Dagger How should I build this character up? The half drow template was taken from Plots and Poison and had the spell resistance removed to adjust him to an ECL 0 Character! Currently I have access to Defenders of the Faith Complete Arcane Book of Exalted deeds Complete Devine Arms and Equipment Dungeon Masters 3.5 Players 3.5 Song and silence Vile Darkness (Not to helpful because I am not to go evil in the campain or im screwed!) Fiend Folio (Useless)
Caelic 04-17-06, 03:27 PM	For the stated objective, an Artificer would be superior to any Rogue--able to have all of those skills maxed, with bonuses the Rogue simply couldn't get...and with the ability to use Search, Open Locks, and Disable Device as free actions. In short, able to be Searching constantly every single round without slowing the party down at all. Of course, that's dependent on your ability to use the Artificer class, which is by no means a given.
ravenkith 04-17-06, 03:40 PM	Ok, kinda silly...but still. Depends on what you want it to do...I'm guessing you want a solo character design, which necessitates combat capability, trapfinding, and UMD employment. I understand the requirements to be a straight 20 levels of rogue... Let's assume 32 point buy, since stat generation wasn't specified. Also, Let's assume without equipment for now, since that makes things a little easier on me (Sue, me, i find shopping at 20th to be a chore, rather than fun, cos I know I'll never get to play it). Cauchemar CN Human Male Rogue 20 Bought: 14, 15, 14, 12, 12, 12 STR: 14 DEX: 20 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 12 CHA: 12 BAB: 15/10/5 FORT: 8=6+2 REF: 17=12+5 WILL: 7=6+1 AC: =10 BASE +5 DEX HP: 20d6 + 40 Attacks: 19/19/14/9, 1d6+2, 19-20/x2, +10d6 SA when flanking, +2 STR Damage each Cohort Attacks: 15/15/10/6 1d6+2, 19-20/x2, +10d6 SA when flanking, +2 STR Damage each Add in the 4 guaranteed (with two attempts left over) AOOs per round from opportunist each has, at their highest attack bonii. 21/21/21/21/21/21/16/11 or 8 attacks} When Flanking 17/17/17/17/17/17/12/8 or 8 attacks} When Flanking (1d6+2 +10d6 +2STR)*8=8d6+16+80d6+16STR (1d6+2 + 8d6 +2STR)*8=8d6+16+64d6+16STR Combined Damage Output Assuming All hit: 16d6+32+144d6+32STR -or- 336-990 + 32 STR And that's WITHOUT equipment beyond masterwork weapons. If it ain't a plant, an ooze, an undead or a construct, it's in a lot of trouble... Deadly Precision (XPH), Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, , Leadership, Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse {(8+Int)*4+4}+ {(8+Int+1)*19}= 230 sps Max=23, CC=12.5 Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), 10 Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), 20 Disable Device (Int), 10 Disguise (Cha), 10 Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), 20 Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), 10 Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), 20 Listen (Wis), 20 Move Silently (Dex), 20 Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), 20 Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), 20 Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), 20 Tumble (Dex), 20 Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex). Skills need redistribution, but Tumble, OL, DD, Search and UMD will remain at 20 ranks each. Sneak Attack + 10d6, Trapfinding, Evasion, Trap Sense +6, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Special Ability: Crippling Strike, Special Ability: Improved Evasion, Special Ability: Opportunist, Special Ability: Skill Mastery (5 skills: Tumble) Cohort: A level 15 carbon copy clone, skill distribution differs: No OL, DD, Search, instead, cover other rogue skills. Feats for TWF with short swords: Two Weapon Fighting, Deadly Precision, Combat reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw. Special Abilities: Crippling Strike, Opportunist Other followers: Level 6 & 5 Clerics, Rest all rogues, members of a guild of which Cauchemar is the leader. Cauchemar & his Cohort would be joined by the two clerics on a dungeon mission. C&C Would proceed to flank dangerous opponants and tear them apart. Due to flanking, each would get sneak dice on every attack. Grr...I started posting BEFORE the second post went up....
DragonChildX 04-17-06, 03:40 PM	What book is that Artificer in? And I would like to see the level Progression to accomplish this as I look at a 20th level character with no feats at all! Im assuming you went TWF!
nihility 04-17-06, 03:44 PM	World's Largest Dungeon imposes several considerations on a character. Off the top of my head, here are some things to keep in mind: 1) Social interaction is limited. There's not a great deal of call for interrogating prisoners or talking your way out of a fight. A good diplomacy modifier will come in handy, but it doesn't need to be huge. 2) Combat is frequent and varied. You will face every monster in the SRD, more or less, and you must plan with this in mind. High spot and listen modifiers are very valuable, as are high saves across the board. 3) Equipment is limited. You can't rely on having a certain skill-boosting item or a certain type of weapon. Given point 3), you need to be ready and able to wield as many types of weapons as possible to ensure that you can beat the various types of DR that you are sure to face. You also need to be able to make key skill checks without relying on +X item boosts. 4) There are lots of traps. With this in mind, here's my advice: Skills - keep pumping points into search, disable device, spot, and listen as top priorities. Social skills other than diplomacy can be allowed to fall behind with relative safety. Pump up tumble until you can move about freely. Use your best judgement with the rest based on party composition and play style. Combat - you should set yourself on a combat style if possible, and picking up martial weapon proficiency would be handy. Check out any of the various rogue threads for more information and particular builds. The handbooks are all good, as is the breaking and entering thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=385357) Check out this list (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=482636) and the library for rogue-related reading material if you haven't already.
JRedGiant 04-17-06, 03:47 PM	Actually I didnt mean to hit the post button yet The reason im thinking of sticking with rogue only is because im in the Worlds Largest Dungeon and will need Disable device, Hide, Move silently, Search, Spot and Open locks as maxed as I can. I don't know how helpful you'll find this, but here's the rogue build I'm currently running in WLD. Human Rogue 1 - Craven, Dodge (human), Mobility (flaw - distracted), TWF (flaw - shaky) 3 - Weapon Finesse 6 - Spring Attack 9 - Staggering Strike 12 - Improved TWF 15 - Greater TWF 18 - undecided Maxed Open Locks, Search, Disable, UMD, Tumble, Hide and Move Silently, using remaining points to build a bunch of other skills to 5+. I have the benefit of having a dedicated Spot/Listen ally, so I don't bother with those skills. YMMV. Tactics - Mainly I use Spring Attack/Mobility/tumble to move into a flanking position, then unleash massive sneak attack damage and stagger my foes into not being able to return a full attack. Currently I'm at lvl 10 and the Opportunist ability has been golden with this tactic - I'm almost always getting an attack of opportunity. Don't be afraid to move/spring attack/fight defensively if you can't get a sneak attack off - get yourself into a good position for future flanking, punt concern about whether or not you hit from the -4 penalty and take the +3AC bonus that tumbling provides. I agree with Caelic - artificer is a great idea, but my DM doesn't allow Eberron or FR for this campaign and it looks like Eberron is out for you too. Also, item creation may be tricky for WLD - you can't exactly sell your loot and turn it into materials for item creation anywhere. ***edit - fixed coding
Caelic 04-17-06, 03:50 PM	The Artificer is a base class in the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook.
ravenkith 04-17-06, 04:00 PM	Flat out: Get Complete Warrior & XPH. You want 3 levels of Swashbuckler from CW and the Deadly Precision Feat from the XPH. You want to go Two weapon fighting. At third level, take either Swash 1 or Rogue 3. I'd recommend Swash 1 as this will give you a much-needed boost to HP, BAB, and the feat Weapon Finesse, allowing you to use your significantly better dexterity instead of your strength for to hit. You'll only take 3 levels of Swash, get them out of the way in rapid succession. This will let you add your intelligence bonus to your damage when you get SA. You also won't have to worry about XP loss (IIRC, your DM has given you leeway as far as Favored Class is concerned). Then go the rest of the way in Rogue. Anyway you slice it, YOU NEED WEAPON FINESSE. If you don't want Swash, use Cauchemar as a template, and just get rid of quick draw. Fight tooth & nail to get deadly precision--it's just too useful. Feats should arguably be taken in this order: Weapon Finesse Two Weapon Fighting Combat Reflexes Leadership Deadly Precision Combat Expertise Opportunist will be your best friend. Crippling strike is oh so tasty (see Cauchemar-most things crippled in a single round!) You are entitled to up to 6 AoOs with your dex mod. Every time an ally deals damage, you get a shot at it too. More than double your attacks! Make sure you pack adamantine weapons for constructs. You'll lose a lot of SA damage, but you'll still be able to help, as long as you can get past their DR. UMD will enable you to pack wands for plants, oozes and undead, as needed.
DragonChildX 04-17-06, 04:24 PM	What is the XPH? And I need to stick with the core classes from the book. (Dm's basically saying "Well who is going to teach you those class skills and abilities?") So im thinking of picking up a level of fighter at 3rd level and taking weapon finess and twf
ravenkith 04-17-06, 04:33 PM	I don't think we're talking about the same Swashbuckler Class. The one I'm talking about is from the complete warrior, and grants weapon finesse at first level, a +1 bonus to reflex saves at 2nd, and your INT to damage (in addition to strength!) at 3rd. Oh, and under these circumstances you shouldn't take weapon focus, unless you are TWFing with two of whatever weapon you are taking it in (short sword)...a +1 bonus to hit is just not good enough. Also, never ever ever ever focus in your off-hand weapon, if you are using two different weapons when TWFing. Weapon Finesse would allow you to use your dex mod instead of your strength mod for your to-hit a +4 effective bonus with all light weapons & the rapier (more, read the feat in the PHB). XPH = Expanded Psionics Handbook. Deadly precision is a general feat from that book.
DragonChildX 04-17-06, 04:46 PM	Oh im familiar with it. I was thinking of going weapon finesse Dagger. Common weapon and perfect for backstabbing as well as an easy weapon to use in my off hand! Also if needed without quickdraw if I need to throw my daggers to hit someone then I might as well take weapon finess dagger and have them in my hands for melee.
JRedGiant 04-17-06, 04:57 PM	I have a few bones to pick with Ravenkith's post. Flat out: Get Complete Warrior & XPH. You want 3 levels of Swashbuckler from CW and the Deadly Precision Feat from the XPH. I'm unconvinced that adding Intellegence to damage and picking up Weapon Finesse for free is worth losing 2d6 sneak attack damage. On average that's 7 points, so you need an intellegence of 24 just to break even. I do like the deadly precision feat, but SA damage becomes overkill, especially when you've tacked on Craven. Opportunist will be your best friend. Crippling strike is oh so tasty (see Cauchemar-most things crippled in a single round!) You are entitled to up to 6 AoOs with your dex mod. Every time an ally deals damage, you get a shot at it too. More than double your attacks! Um, negative, sir. From the SRD, emphasis mine: Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round. This makes combat reflexes less important, as you're not going to have much else that triggers an AoO. It's a decent prereq feat for Expert Tactician I suppose, but not really important.
JRedGiant 04-17-06, 05:07 PM	Oh im familiar with it. I was thinking of going weapon finesse Dagger. Common weapon and perfect for backstabbing as well as an easy weapon to use in my off hand! Also if needed without quickdraw if I need to throw my daggers to hit someone then I might as well take weapon finess dagger and have them in my hands for melee. Weapon Finesse has the lovely advantage of not being tied to a particular weapon. When you pick it once, it affects all light weapons (including daggers), the rapier, whip and spiked chain.
GavinMagius 04-17-06, 05:21 PM	I am also in WLD, I am a Elf rouge LvL 5 My stats are Str 14 Dex 20 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 13 Cha 12 I have max skills in Balance, open lock, search, listen, hide, search, and im working on getting jump, heal and move silently up I am using a rapier Feats are: 1st lvl weapon finesse 3rd combat reflexes Thats where I am at now with feats What I plan to do is get Dodge and mobility then take Shadowdancer pg. 195 DMGv3.5 The main thing is what about your party, how many of them are there and what are they? I have in my party a mage3/cleric2 heading towards mystic thurge a paladin lvl 5 a fighter (dwarf) a psion and a cleric oh yeah and of all characters a Druid. (we didnt read the warning in the front of WLD which states that druids are not recommended for this campaign) My party is well rounded (except for the druid) So I have alot of sneak attacks.
ravenkith 04-17-06, 05:31 PM	I have a few bones to pick with Ravenkith's post. 1. I'm unconvinced that adding Intellegence to damage and picking up Weapon Finesse for free is worth losing 2d6 sneak attack damage. On average that's 7 points, so you need an intellegence of 24 just to break even. <snip> 2. I do like the deadly precision feat, but SA damage becomes overkill, especially when you've tacked on Craven. <snip> 3. Um, negative, sir. From the SRD, emphasis mine: <snip> This makes combat reflexes less important, as you're not going to have much else that triggers an AoO. It's a decent prereq feat for Expert Tactician I suppose, but not really important. You Have some good points, sir, But I have to disagree with you a little bit: :D 1. The whole Intelligence added to damage thing, though it is quite a bonus, on it's own, is not sufficient reason to take the class. However, if you count in the extra hitpoints (D10s as opposed to d6), the boost to fortitude (which rogue is otherwise sadly lacking in), the +1 to reflex saves, and the 3 straight points of BAB, the package as a whole comes out a little bit ahead, especially in light of Sunny's wicked high intelligence (+4!). 2. I am not familiar with Craven. What book is it from, and what, pray tell does it do? Deadly Precision is inarguably, useful: Reroll all ones on sneak dice? Maybe at lower levels, not so good, but when you start getting 8-10d6 a round, 4-5 times a round... 3. You are correct sir. My number of attacks is overstated...by three. :embarrass I still get 5/round. Assuming of course, no-one attempts to move through any threatened areas, tries to cast a spell, attempts a grapple, blah blah blah, in which case I would get more. Combat reflexes may well be overkill in this situation. Please forgive me, as I have recently been building 30th level characters and was probably thinking of Improved combat reflexes, which, AFAIK, would override the restriction on opportunist. That however, just means a free feat. so instead of 336-990 + 32 STR, I'll be doing 5d6+10+50d6+10STR 5d6+10+40d6+10STR (100d6+20+20STR) -or- 210-620+20STR per round, assuming they all hit. <sigh>, what a come-down :raincloud Hrm... :thinks: a level 20 barbarian with 14 con would have 280 hit points... :smirk:
ravenkith 04-17-06, 05:40 PM	I am also in WLD, I am a Elf rouge LvL 5 My stats are Str 14 Dex 20 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 13 Cha 12 I have max skills in Balance, open lock, search, listen, hide, search, and im working on getting jump, heal and move silently up I am using a rapier Feats are: 1st lvl weapon finesse 3rd combat reflexes Thats where I am at now with feats What I plan to do is get Dodge and mobility then take Shadowdancer pg. 195 DMGv3.5 The main thing is what about your party, how many of them are there and what are they? I have in my party a mage3/cleric2 heading towards mystic thurge a paladin lvl 5 a fighter (dwarf) a psion and a cleric oh yeah and of all characters a Druid. (we didnt read the warning in the front of WLD which states that druids are not recommended for this campaign) My party is well rounded (except for the druid) So I have alot of sneak attacks. Same advice goes for you, pal...also, MAX OUT TUMBLE! Screw heal after 10 ranks, you're not getting enough benefit out of it. Finally, that druid, with the right PrCs, can be more deadly than any other character there. Get that man a copy of Complete Warrior, the Monster Manual, and the PHB, and sit him down with the Wildshape Rules, the Warshaper class, and the Druid buff spell list...also, see if your DM'd be silly enough to grant him VoP. Post-errata, it's the best choice for Monks & Druids, IMHO. At the ver least, it'd let you get around those stupid 'now you have to get dressed again' rules.
JRedGiant 04-17-06, 05:58 PM	I've been more focused on my 10th level WLD rogue, with the above build. Craven is an arguably shattered (not merely broken) feat from Lords of Madness. Gives a -2 penalty on fear saves, you cannot be immune to fear, but you get +1 damage per level to any sneak attack. You realize of course that adding Deadly Precision to a build makes the loss of Sneak Attack even greater. I do like Deadly Precision and am leaning heavily towards taking it at level 18, maybe even 15 and push GTWF to 18. Looking at the last three levels of rogue (18, 19 and 20) you are losing 1d6 sneak attack, 3 straight points of BAB, +1 fort and will, +2 reflex, another point of trap sense (blah) and a special ability, probably improved evasion, defensive roll or slippery mind. Your gain is +4 reflex, +3 fort (if I'm guessing the saves correctly), +1 will, 3 points of BAB, Int to damage, free weapon finesse and about 6 hp over the rogue levels (16.5 average to 10.5 average). So in my opinion it largely comes down to this - how high is your intelligence, how much do you value that rogue special ability and do you have a better use for the dead level (Rogue 20). As for AoO, in two sessions of play my rogue has missed a sum total of one AoO that combat reflexes would have given him. Not worth a feat slot to me.
DragonChildX 04-18-06, 12:03 PM	:bump: this is what I have sofar! Class - Feats - BAB Rogue - Sign Of The crown - +0 (Cant change feat) Rogue - +1 Fighter - TWF, Weapon Finesse +2 (2 attacks) Rogue +3 Fighter- Combat Reflexes +4 Rogue - Expert Tactician +5 (3 attacks when enemy caught flat footed) Rogue +5 Rogue +6/+1 (4 attacks when enemy is caught flat footed) Rogue - Pre-Emptive Sence +7/+2 Rogue +8/+3