Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BeauJest 02-02-07, 05:32 PM	I'm playing an evil Cleric of the Fury (Passion,Madness) in the Xen'drik Campaign. Originally I wanted to go down the path towards Blackguard, but I realized I could be an Assassin much quicker and he could really be an instrument of fury and pain. FUN. Assassin requirements: Evil: check Move Silently: 8 ranks Hide: 8 ranks Disguise: 4 ranks By being human, having +1 Int, and taking Able Learner at 1st level, I can satsify the reqs at Cleric-5/{Class w/ Move Silently, Hide as class skills}-1 MILLON DOLLAR QUESTION: What's the best class to get Move Silently & Hide as class skills? Top Candidates: Rogue: Obvious choice, Sneak attack complements Assassin well Monk: good Stunning Fist from Wis that improves w/ levels, decent AC boost if caught out of armor, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry; potentially worth a 2nd level to get Combat Reflexes & Evasion Soulknife: Mind Blade w/ weapon focus, Wild Talent -> psychic focus feats, good hps; Will use up a bunch of expansion slots, especially w/ psionic feats, unlikely to level higher Others? I'm kinda leaning towards Monk, just for the sheer ability extras. Thanks for any feedback.
Momar 02-02-07, 05:43 PM	What books? Human Paragon (UA) would give you those two as class skills if you wanted. It would also progress cleric casting (2/3 levels).
rilem 02-02-07, 05:52 PM	Is there a particular reason why you want to gimp yourself? Entering Assassin as a cleric is pretty pointless — you torpedo your casting, inflict multiple-ability dependency upon yourself and get practically nothing worthwhile in return. BlackFlame Zealot isn't great, but it gets some of the Assassin flavor and at least progresses casting a little.
BeauJest 02-02-07, 05:59 PM	It's in the Xen'drik Adventures campaign. If you're not familiar with the Campaign standards, you get unlimited access the Eberron CS, PH, but Assassin, Warlock, Duskblade, Blackguard, and Beguiler are unlimited for me. You have to use slots for content from the list below and get 1 slot/level. External spells costs 1 slot, Feats cost 2 slots, Classes/PrC cost 3 slots. Able Learner cost me 2 slots already. So there is definitely a balance on external content. I'd like to keep some slots open for other prestige classes, feats, and spells. Thanks! D2: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Dungeon Master’s Guide XP: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Expanded Psionics Handbook WL: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Weapons of Legacy MH: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Miniatures Handbook CW: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Complete Warrior CD: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Complete Divine CA: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Complete Arcane CV: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Complete Adventurer CP: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Complete Psionic CM: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Complete Mage RS: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Races of Stone RD: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Races of Destiny RW: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Races of the Wild RE: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Races of Eberron DR: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Draconomicon DM: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Dragon Magic LI: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Libris Mortis LM: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Lords of Madness HB: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Heroes of Battle HH: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Heroes of Horror FB: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Frostburn SS: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Sandstorm SW: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Stormwrack SH: EBERRON Sharn: City of Towers FN: EBERRON Five Nations EH: EBERRON Explorer’s Handbook ME: EBERRON Magic of Eberron FE: EBERRON Faiths of Eberron SX: EBERRON Secrets of Xen’drik PG: EBERRON Player’s Guide to Eberron PH2: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Players Handbook II ToB: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords TM: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Tome of Magic MoI: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Magic of Incarnum SPC: DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Spell Compendium
BeauJest 02-02-07, 06:07 PM	Is there a particular reason why you want to gimp yourself? Entering Assassin as a cleric is pretty pointless — you torpedo your casting, inflict multiple-ability dependency upon yourself and get practically nothing worthwhile in return. My character IS insane. So although I may be on an optimization forum, I'm looking for something that will be fun. I don't plan on going past 5th or 7th level as a Cleric. My spellcasting will mainly serve to beef up my character, incapacitate my foes (Confusion, Hold Person, Touch of Madness), and Inflict upon armored foes. Add the sneak attack, poisioning, and stealth spells and I think it's a pretty interesting character. Is it really THAT bad of an idea? I'm thinking Cleric7/Rogue1/Assassin-5 by 13th level.
Senevri 02-02-07, 06:59 PM	Check to see if your DM allows for Divine Trickster. Anyway, Guerrilla Warrior feat from HoB would do the trick.
BeauJest 02-03-07, 01:40 AM	Check to see if your DM allows for Divine Trickster. Anyway, Guerrilla Warrior feat from HoB would do the trick. What's the source of Divine Trickster? Although Guerrilla Warrior does make MS & Hide cost only 1 rank (the same benefit for all skills is gained with Able Learner), they're still cross-class skills. To have 8 ranks in both, you'd need to be 13th level- hence the need for a second class. Thanks anyway.
PhoenixInferno 02-03-07, 02:30 AM	Yes, Cleric 7/Rogue 1/Assassin 5 is a really bad idea - at the very least, you should take Rogue levels first for 4x skill points. What about Assassin is it that appeals to you?
BeauJest 02-03-07, 06:48 PM	I started my character as a Cleric, so I'm set on this path. I guess I'm trying to add some flavor to my evil, insane cleric. Frankly, I'm not really impressed with most the prestige classes available to Clerics. I was going to go the route of Blackguard, but the Assassin's abilities seemed to be a more interesting addition. Spell Focus(Enchantment) covers a lot of Assassin & Cleric spells, so there's some synergy. I also liked the idea of being something of a sneak- looming in the shadows, casting spells like Confusion. But it might prove more difficult in execution. There is quite a price to pay in losing the spellcasting. If I really want to go down the whole insane road, a Cleric/Alienist is probably the way to go. I'm also consider Cleric/Psychic Warrior/Blackguard. That would be a powerful opponent.
PhaedrusXY 02-03-07, 06:53 PM	Is it really THAT bad of an idea? Yes.
neceros 02-04-07, 08:28 PM	Cleric 4 / Rogue 1 / Shadowbane Stalker 10 / Slayer of Domiel 5
rilem 02-04-07, 08:55 PM	Oy, Slayer of domiel? First off, it's an evil PC. Secondly, Slayer of Domiel is a worse course of action than straight assassin (you still get MAD, the death attack is even worse and the entry requirements are tougher. And the spells are worse.
The Jake 02-04-07, 09:44 PM	Cleric 4 / Rogue 1 / Shadowbane Stalker 10 / Slayer of Domiel 5 Thanks for that. I was about to say Shadowbane Stalker. There's also the Strifemaster(?) PrC in Faiths and Pantheons for FR - the 10 level PrC for Clerics of Cyric. This might be suitable for assassin-cleric types (a worshipper of Cyric sounds very very thematically with what you're aiming for I think) although from an optimisation standpoint may not be what you want....
PhoenixInferno 02-04-07, 10:01 PM	Thanks for that. I was about to say Shadowbane Stalker. There's also the Strifemaster(?) PrC in Faiths and Pantheons for FR - the 10 level PrC for Clerics of Cyric. This might be suitable for assassin-cleric types (a worshipper of Cyric sounds very very thematically with what you're aiming for I think) although from an optimisation standpoint may not be what you want....Wouldn't be allowed in a Xen'drik Expeditions campaign.
rilem 02-04-07, 10:21 PM	Right, strifeleader would be fine -- though for real assassination stuff you want 10 levels of it, plus levels in BlackFlame Zealot. (plus, as Phoenix noted, it's disallowed) Shadowbane Stalker is also LG -- and this guy's an Evil PC.
The Jake 02-04-07, 10:24 PM	Right, strifeleader would be fine -- though for real assassination stuff you want 10 levels of it, plus levels in BlackFlame Zealot. (plus, as Phoenix noted, it's disallowed) Shadowbane Stalker is also LG -- and this guy's an Evil PC. Bugger. If he can justify it thematically, the DM could conceivably houserule it.
Blade2718 02-04-07, 10:57 PM	Bugger. If he can justify it thematically, the DM could conceivably houserule it.It's a Xen'Drik Expeditions campaign, which is very similar to Living Greyhawk.
BeauJest 02-05-07, 01:27 PM	So what do people think are effective evil Cleric prestige classes? What if I go the other route and just spend 2 levels on Rogue & Assassin to get those abilities, spending the remaining on Cleric? Cleric max-2/Rogue 1/Assassin 1 Spending two levels doesn't seem so bad to gain +2d6 sneak, death attack, poison use, and a couple of Assassin spells. Only downside is the +0 base attack for both levels and some loss of spell power. But unless I get a full caster prestige class, that is going to happen regardless. Anyone ever seen someone play a Cleric Alienist?
rilem 02-05-07, 01:44 PM	Loss of two caster levels for what? Poison use? A cleric can cast poison. Death Attack? Your DC will be abysmal. There are some nice Assassin spells, but none at first level that are worth giving up 4th level Cleric spells for. And sneak attack is only worth it for ray specialists who then take a PrC that advances SA. Let's start over. What's your Alignment, Abilities and Feats so far? Can you change that Able Learner feat? What are you looking for out of this PC? And if you say "kewl flavor" I'm going to scream. Do you want to be a caster (I guess not by your posts) a melee type? A backup trapfinder? Nightcloak could be a nice option, but it's from the CD web enhancement, not the book. Personally I think Black Flame Zealot might be OK for you — it's not a very strong PrC mechanically but it's a hell of a lot better than going Cleric7/Rogue1/Assassin5. Cleric6/Rog1/BFZ10 gets you BAB +11, Death Attack, Poison Use, 6th level spells, Sneak +4d6, good saves, decent. The problem is the Kukri proficiency; if you don't want to blow a marital weapon prof. you might have to dip into Fighter or something in addition to rogue, or find a cleric PrC that gives martial profs.
BeauJest 02-05-07, 02:41 PM	Loss of two caster levels for what? Poison use? A cleric can cast poison. Death Attack? Your DC will be abysmal. There are some nice Assassin spells, but none at first level that are worth giving up 4th level Cleric spells for. And sneak attack is only worth it for ray specialists who then take a PrC that advances SA. Let's start over. What's your Alignment, Abilities and Feats so far? Can you change that Able Learner feat? What are you looking for out of this PC? And if you say "kewl flavor" I'm going to scream. Do you want to be a caster (I guess not by your posts) a melee type? A backup trapfinder? Nightcloak could be a nice option, but it's from the CD web enhancement, not the book. Personally I think Black Flame Zealot might be OK for you — it's not a very strong PrC but it's a hell of a lot better than going Rogue/Assassin. Cleric6/Rog1/BFZ10 gets you BAB +11, Death Attack, Poison Use, 6th level spells, Sneak +5d6. Good points. I'm starting to see the light... Well, I started my human Cleric of the Fury one way and I later changed it on the character rebuild. I think I could get away with removing the rebuild on my sheet (I did a light line-through) and go back to the original build. He's 2nd level now, but the level kick is coming soon (4th level), so I need to stop the flip-flop and stay focused. I'll list them below: Original build: Cleric-1 NE; Domain: Passion, Madness Str- 14, Dex- 8, Con- 12, Int- 10, Wis- 15, Cha- 12 Feats: Power Attack, Cleave Skills: Heal 2, Concentration 2, Diplomacy 4, Know (religion) 2, Hide 1 Direction: Cleric/Blackguard OR Cleric/Barbarian/Blackguard Current build: Cleric-2 CE; Domain: Passoin, Madness Str- 12, Dex- 14, Con- 10, Int- 13, Wis- 15, Cha- 8 Feats: Able Learner, Scribe Scroll Skills: Concentration- 5, Disguise 2, Heal 5, Hide 2, Move Silently 2, Sleight of Hand 2, Know (religion) 4 Direction: Cleric/Rogue/Assassin OR Cleric/Alienist What kind of character I want: I really like the Madness & Passion domains, as there are some nice domain abilities and spells. I saw somewhat of a plateau at level 5, so thought it might be a good point to change the character's direction. I want my character to be shifty, and a little crazy. I really want to explore the "madman" stereotype, so I thought going to assassin route, being interested in poisons and death, would be fun. I also had high expectations for Lords of Madness, but this source was somewhat of a letdown. I was considering taking the Aberration Blood feat, but the payoffs aren't that great. I see your point about not wasting spell levels on lower level abilities in other classes. I have another cleric character in another campaign, full cleric levels, so I was looking for something different. But he IS already different, with some interesting spells and the ability to Inflict. Perhaps the best answer when indecisive is to stay true to the Cleric class, or find an acceptable full caster prestige class. After all, I might regret it when I could have been casting spells like Phantasmal Killer & Insanity at higher levels. So maybe the Alienist would be a good option. Blackguard would make him nastier in melee, but the spell overlap is kinda a drag- Blackguard is much better for a base fighting class. Hope this is helpful & thanks for your feedback!
PhaedrusXY 02-05-07, 03:15 PM	As a 5th level human, you should have 3 feats. As a 5th level cleric, you can cast Animate Dead, which can be an enormous power-up.
BeauJest 02-05-07, 03:31 PM	As a 5th level human, you should have 3 feats. As a 5th level cleric, you can cast Animate Dead, which can be an enormous power-up. Right. I was writing out my 2nd-level build. The remaining two levels are still up for debate. I'm planning on taking Spell Focus(Enchantment) to strengthen the numerous Madness/Passion spells: Lesser Confusion, Touch of Madness, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Confusion, etc...