Post/Author/DateTime	Post
chris7476 06-26-03, 12:25 AM	I'm going to give this PC a whirl in a new campaign. Nothing crazy, just a solid half-orc Ftr 2/Bbn 5/RB 10 build. Simple but should be a lot of fun. Anyway, I'm undecided on what lodge to choose. My first thought was Ice Troll but I'm not sure if the natural armor bonus will stack with the RB's ritual scarring. It seems kind of odd if they don't since I don't know who else would take this feat. Anyway, if it doesn't stack, I won't take it. I think I'm leaning towards Ettercap or Great Stag. I don't plan on using light weapons so Snow Tiger is out. I also don't think Owlbear or Wolf will be that useful too often. I'm starting at level 6 and starting as a Ftr 2/Bbn 4 with Power Attack, Cleave, and the RB req's. Any other thoughts for this build?
goblinhero 06-26-03, 12:42 AM	personally, I'm down with Ettercap can never complain about more hitpoints and increased rage duration.
mean_liar 06-26-03, 01:09 AM	To me, its either Ettercap or Wolf. The others are entirely forgettable (assuming that the natural armor doesn't stack). And without Jotunbrud or some interest from you, Wolf seems questionable.
grey muse 06-26-03, 03:59 AM	What's RB from? UE? grey muse
Laelenie 06-26-03, 04:32 AM	edited: misinterpretation... shutting my mouth up.
Funny Slaughter 06-26-03, 04:32 AM	What's RB from? UE? right. Anyway, I'm undecided on what lodge to choose. you can change lodges if you want, its nothing looked down as stated in the UE-book. since lodges and RSB are not one and the same i would assume that the NA-bonus do not stack. gs Funny
Eagle Prince 06-26-03, 05:00 AM	It seems like the armor bonus is so large knowing that it wouldn't stack... 2 points covers the rage penalty, giving you +2 AC while raged, that is pretty darn tough for a single feat. I might consider letting it stack with ritual scaring though... it seems like it should be an increase to your natural armor, because however hard your skin was you are making it even harder by scaring it... but that would be a problem with RB, not Troll rage. Troll rage obviously was made knowing it won't stack. RB might have been intended to increase... just imo. I might consider Wolf... irrc, it lets your barbarian get trip even w/ a lot intelligence. Ettercap really isn't as helpful as it seems... basically +1 Fort saves while raging for an extra round. Stag is a good generic choice, if you don't plan on using two weapons (tiger), going RB (troll), doing much trips or grappling (wolf or owlbear). If you don't plan on doing much charging, then I guess that leaves you with Ettercap.
chris7476 06-26-03, 11:50 AM	Wow, I kind of missed that about the Wolf. That is actually really good. This might actually make Trip effective. Your Str will be pretty high while raging plus you get another +4 on top of it for trip attempts. The RB also has access to two spells that can increase his size to Large (righteous might, polymorph self). This could be quite nasty. Plus, you can take Imp Trip without Expertise or the Int req. Then I could top it off with Knock-Down. After rereading the Trip entry, I have a dumb question. If you don't have a trip weapon, making a trip attempt requires a melee touch attack. Do you provoke an AoO if you don't have IUS? Is a melee touch attack the same as an unarmed strike?
Shovel Warrior 06-26-03, 11:55 AM	Ettercap. While i am a bit of a con freak for barbs, but i think that this s the best choice. Lets reviw the others. Great Stag: +4 to hit on a charge, but n additional -2 to ac, making your charge penalty -6 when using this, -8 if you are raging. Decent, but not to good imo. Ice Troll: Great at low levels, but remember that you will be getting natural armor from Runescared berserker. Decent, but it can quickly become outdated. Owlbear: Unarmed Barbarain? doesn't seem like the best option imo. Still, could be decent if used for caster killing. Snow Tiger: This is good, but i generally prefer barbs as two handers. The feat investment (even with the loss of ambidexterity with 3.5) is still to heavy for a barb, imo. Still, if you do decide to twf with a bard, this is good. Wolf: This one is the worst. While tripping can be decent, i feel that damage is better, since it always is useful, unlike trip. But, if you want a trip barb, then take thiso ne by all means. **BEGIN SACRASM** PS: Thanks a lot chris, i just got that book yesterday and was planing on posting that exact same build (ftr2, bbn5, rsb10). Stupid build stealing thief. **END SARCASM**
chris7476 06-26-03, 12:00 PM	It has been shown how tripping is far from the best use of your attack, and the bard cant afford the feat investment nor the invenstment in a 13 int to make tripping even worthwile. Reread the Wolf entry, particularly the "Special" entry. I also discussed it in my post. You don't need Expertise or the 13 Int to take Imp Trip!! That means for two feats you got Knock-Down with a +4 on top of it all!! The RB also has the option to become Large. I thought it was terrible too but after rereading it, I think it's the best by far. I could drop Cleave and take Imp Trip instead and then take Knock-Down with my next feat at level 9. No Cleave but oh well.
Shovel Warrior 06-26-03, 12:01 PM	Wow, i just noticed that and edited my post as you were posting that chris.
chris7476 06-26-03, 04:18 PM	Wolf: This one is the worst. While tripping can be decent, i feel that damage is better, since it always is useful, unlike trip. But, if you want a trip barb, then take thiso ne by all means. You still think this is the worst even with the possibilities of what it can do? Let's say your Str is 24 while raging. That's a +7. Add +4 from the Wolf Lodge. That's +11. Now throw on Righteous Might. That gives you another +4 to Str and makes you Large. That's another +6. This will make your trip check +17!! I'm not even taking into account any magic enhancement to Str. You could easily add on Bull's Strength for another +4 Str (which would give you another +2). Now you're up to +19. I think this is by far the best trip combo by far that we have seen. For added sickness, you could use polymorph to become something bigger than Large size. Of course we won't know until we see the polymorph changes in 3.5. You don't even need Knock-Down with those numbers; just make a normal trip attack and, in most cases, you'll be successful. PS: Thanks a lot chris, i just got that book yesterday and was planing on posting that exact same build (ftr2, bbn5, rsb10). Stupid build stealing thief. LOL, sorry dude. The RB is a great PrC. Here's my build since we are discussing it. Half-orc Ftr 2/Bbn 4 (I'm starting at level 6) Str 20 (+1 at 4th) Dex 14 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 9 I got lucky with my stats. The Wis grants access to all spell levels. I'll also probably increase it at 8th level for the extra Will save and skill bonuses. Bbn 1: Lodge feat (either Ettercap or Wolf) Ftr 1: Power Attack Bbn 2: Survivor Ftr 2: Cleave or Imp Trip (if Wolf lodge) Bbn 3: Bbn 4: Iron WIll I'll take one more level of Bbn and then RB 1-10. I wanted to be a half-orc only because I've never played one before. Human would give me another feat which would be very helpful with the Wolf lodge but I'm going to stick with half-orc for pure fun factor. And darkvision. Finally I get a character who can actually see in the dark. I also considered taking a level of Rng for Track. My Wis is good so I'm going to concentrate on Survival (Wilderness Lore). I would most likely drop a level of Bbn for the Rng level but I would lose Uncanny Dodge. Another nice thing is to maybe take Scent later on because of being a half-orc. I also might post an analysis of the RB's spells. I've looked at it a bit and some spells are awesome because they hardly cost anything at all to use. So you can essentially have buff spells that you can use all the time. The spell list is quite nice overall as well.
Eagle Prince 06-26-03, 07:29 PM	About the Great Stag lodge, it is +4 attack -4 AC, not +4 attack -6 AC, the special line entry is there to avoid confusion on how it works. If the penalty stacked, so would the bonus... +6 attack, -6 AC? I would make a charge build for sure, if that was the case. Now you might think a -4 AC sucks hardcore, but you have to remember that this will be used most often with a build based around charging. In which case, he'll charge and more than likely kill whatever it is he is fighting, and if anything else is nearby, he can cleave through them as well. So unless you are fighting a whole tribe of goblins, there won't be anything around to take advantage of your bad AC.
chris7476 06-26-03, 07:32 PM	Here's a breakdown of the RB's spells. First off, I think a good general strategy is to take spells that really only need to be cast at their minimum caster level. The overall gp/XP cost of any of the spells isn't really that high but could add up over time, especially the gp cost. 1st level - The best ones here are See Invisibility and Divine Favor. Not having to rely on others to see invisible is great and it can be cast at its min level (1 minute duration). Although it will require casting it at a higher level, Divine Favor is a great choice, although not at first. Since it's a luck bonus, it stacks with everything. Since it goes up every three levels, it won't start paying off until RB 6. Then at RB 9, it becomes +9. It's the only 1st level spell that pays off more with time. Another good first level choice is Resist Elements (min caster level). After that, it's prob either Cure Moderate or Prot from Evil although both are near useless if you wait to take it with the last choice. True Strike might be a better choice at the higher levels. Then there is always low-light vision if you are human I suppose. 2nd level - Endurance and Bull's Str are the best choices here, even with the 3.5 nerf. Prot from Elements is good but you definitely need to cast it at a higher level to be effective. You may also want to choose between it and Resist Elements. I don't see Invisibility helping too much, at least for a Bbn. Keen Edge might lose some effectiveness, especially with the 3.5 nerf, although it's not a bad choice. That leaves Cure Serious Wounds. I think it would be good to have at least one mid-level cure spell until you get Heal. Darkvision is a better choice for a race that can't see in the dark than low-light. 3rd level - 3rd level is a bit more difficult. There are no clear winners. Cure Critical might be a good choice for a cure spell. Divine Power is useless because most likely, you are going to have at least an 18 Str already. Same goes fro GMW because with the 3.5 nerf, the RB is only going to be able to get a max of +2 out of it and that's only at RB 8. Haste and Freedom of Movement are probably the best choices. Both can be cast at their min caster level and Haste is still good for a melee character in 3.5. Air Walk is ok but I'd rely on the other casters for a fly spell instead. The real sleeper in the 3rd level is Death Ward. Death Ward is being combined with Negative Energy Prot in 3.5 so it might get a boost. 4th level - Some good choices here aside from Neutralize Poison. Your Fort save will be pretty high already so I don't think NP is a quality choice. I've never found much use for Spell Immunity either. The good choices are Stoneskin, Imp Invis, and Righteous Might. Stoneskin can be cast at the min level and still be effective. It only gets better from there. Imp Invis is great but might not be as effective to a Bbn. I really like Righteous Might, especially with the Wolf lodge as discussed above. That leaves Restoration. Restoration complements Heal well but you can also easily rely on other casters for this. 5th level - HEAL. Period. I know it's getting a nerf in 3.5 but it's the ultimate last ditch survival tool. You'll still get 100 hp's if cast at 10th level. It also supercedes Restoration (except for energy drain) and Neutralize Poison. This can be countered if you have Death Ward. Spell Resistance is useless because it's based on caster level. Since the max caster level you can get is 10, the highest SR you can get is 22. This isn't very good at CR 17. While potentially it can be awesome, I'm hesitant to recommend poly self because of 3.5. I suspect it's getting some major changes. Dimension Door is a great escape route spell but Bbn's aren't cowards. I would go for Anitmagic Field. This has a lot of potential for a character like this. Usually it isn't a viable option because a spellcaster class is casting it and it is centered on the caster. Not with the RB. You can wade into combat without fear from any magic and still be able to rage. The RB can become the ultimate mage killer. It also can be cast at its min level. Phew! Hope this helps any prospective Runescarred Berserkers. :fight!:
Snow Savant 06-26-03, 09:52 PM	Nice analysis, Chris. :) The RB build I dig the most has a prefix of: Ftr2 / Barb2 / Rgr1 / Battlerager2 Then I'd take the full 10 levels of RB, then finish up the last 3 levels with Battlerager. Battlerager is in the RoF book. Gives you some stackable Natural Armor (with RB's bonuses), a few Rages, and a few Feats. And of course, let's you pile high the Intimidate skill. I like the idea of having the RB's "gentler" side be that of an expert Tracker. Hence my need for Ranger-1. Take care, Snow :cloud9:
chris7476 06-26-03, 10:35 PM	Nice build Snow but I don't think it works. Both the RB and Battlerager both require 3 feats, none of which are the same. That's 6 feats. Your build will only have 5 feat slots (3 from level, 2 from Ftr) not including feats granted by classes (Track, Close-Quarter Fighting). Am I missing something? Other than that, the only caveat I would have is whether or not a dwarf would be admitted into a lodge. It does mention outsiders so it's not that big of a stretch. Perhaps a dwarven battlerager who quested in Rashemen or something. It's doable. :D I just really wanted to try a half-orc. The Rng level is nice for Track though. Hmm, tough call. What else does the 3.5 Rng get at 1st level? If I went that route, it would be nice to get Scent for a half-orc build. Also, I'm looking to get some more feedback on my Wolf lodge/tripping idea. Any thoughts?
Snow Savant 06-26-03, 10:46 PM	I missed that line reference after Survivor. :( My eyes are going on me, Chris. It really sucks. Although I did buy some neat frames the other day - 1940's silver/grey horn-rims with rhinestones at the ends. At least I'll look hip as I blind away. I'll have to re-check Funny's take on the RB later on ... I know he had a Frenzied Berserker angle he was taking. And ixnayed the Holy Liberator 3-level dip. Back to researching stocks.... Snow
Funny Slaughter 06-27-03, 04:19 AM	i think my build is on the old boards somewhere. the trick is that qualifying for HL is quite an easy task, but otherwise you have to take rogue and though miss a point of BAB. that means no full 10 levels of RSB, i think i managed 8 or 9. frenzied berserker can be in, but at least i decided not to include it. you will be a strong character anyway and i think frenzy is a big drawback since it does not work with your RSB-runes. i think activating antimagic field in front of a wizard is a much smarter turn then turning into frenzy. i think the next character i will play is this build, or maybe my grapple-based with feral-template, i will decide when i hear details of the campaign. i think its one of the most potent melee-builds ever, and the runes are the ice on the cake that really makes fun. you have to decide wise and they are not cheap, but hey, its fun! gs Funny
Quithion 06-27-03, 12:02 PM	Chris you sotle my idea!!! j/k I currently have two pcs in my ciampaign who are somewhat brothers. One is a Shield Dwarf Fighter from Mithral Hall ( youve all seen the post im sure) Who met up with a barbarian from rasheman who went to study the other berserkers in the world during his dajemma. their now back in rasheman ^_^. I was thinkinging thata good build would be barbarian 1( maybe 2) Fighter 4/Hl 2/ RSB 1 ( this would put you at Runescarred asap) and then take that up to 10. then fill up to on 3 more levels of HL or 1 ( for divine might) and maybe another prc or ranger. So to recap a total of Barb 1/ Fighter 4/HL 3(5)/Runescarred barbarian 10/ X if you dont take Hl up to 5. I dont know how workable this build becuasei cant seem to think of a way to get 5 ranks of Diplomacy for the life of mee but ispent most of last night in the hospital after being attacked by a dog, and the pain pills arent helping. Imc the natural armor class of the Icetroll berserker and Runescarred berseker do stack. It seems to make sense. I also think that it does something for cold too. And if a battle ragers natural armor stacks why not ice trolls? Also, Ettercap berserker is nice, becuasei dont think you have to be ragiing to get the plus 2 bonus versus poisens. I think Hl addsa very nice touch for the Divine might as well. Plus all of your save will be pumped up too. And who would want this power house turned on their own party? Cant be charmed worth it in my book. ( for flavor, I think you could say that the holy liberator part of him is trying to thwart Thay as best he can. It seems to fit nicely) I also like the idea of taking only 2 fighter levels for the feats and getting Uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge and an extra rage from barbarian. I think these feats would also be oh so useful. Extended Rage Extra rage ( to make up for it if you dont take many levels of barbarian early on.) Power Attack Cleave Divine Might Ettercap, Ice troll and Wolf feats. More often then not my players go for magic items that give feats. I havea rogue with a belt that grants endurance and running to her. These items tend to have to be created by the partys wizard, but they often tithe 5 -10 percent of their xp to the wizard ( Ie if hes got a 22 int why shouldnt he learn things at a fast rate then the rest of us ? It seems to make sense. but that my humble opinon.) I would also pick up a Berserking weapon for that +2 while raging.
chris7476 06-27-03, 01:54 PM	First I'll address the HL. I know the HL is the uber-PrC but I'm not a fan of it in this build. The abilities are awesome of course but I don't think they are crucial in this build. The main problem is the Diplomacy req. Using cross-class ranks isn't a great solution either. So leaves the rogue levels. Taking rogue levels will do a few things: 1. Delay entry into RB because of the BAB loss. 2. Lose an extra rage per day. This might not be a big deal at level 20 but only having one rage/day until level 8 (or higher) really hurts. 3. Loss of hp's. Your AC is going to be pretty poor. Those hp's will help. You are also relying on having a high Cha which is usually very difficult to attain. The RB also places more importance on Wis to get the runescars. You'll need at least a 15 to get the 5th level ones. So I still like Ftr 2/Bbn 5 or Rng 1/Ftr 2/Bbn 4 if you want Track but I prefer the former. --------------------------------------- Onto the lodges. I'm still shocked that no one is latching onto the Wolf lodge! The more I think about this, the sicker it gets. The +4 from the Wolf lodge is nice but possibly even better is the ability to take Imp Trip without needing the normal req's. Once you get Imp Trip, all you need is Knock-Down. While raging, you're guaranteed to do at least 10 points of damage. That means every attack you hit with, you'll have a chance to knock your opponent down with +4 bonus. At 4th level, you can have Wolf lodge, Imp Trip, and Knock-Down with a +11 to your opposed Str check (assuming a 24 Str while raging). A +11! At 4th level! This is a DM's nightmare IMO and I plan on making it a reality. As I discussed in the above posts, it only gets deadlier. I can't even fathom what it will be like if you throw Righteous Might or Anitmagic Field on top of that. I'm drooling at the thought. What wizard or caster is going to be able to counter a +11 Str check in an antimagic field? Power Attack and Cleave can wait.
simpkin 06-27-03, 02:19 PM	no idea how my post got here =p ignore it sorry
simpkin 06-27-03, 02:30 PM	same as before ...
chris7476 06-27-03, 08:48 PM	One more bump for the Wolf lodge! By the way, doesn't this guy look like a lego figure without the body? :fight!:
Snow Savant 06-27-03, 09:50 PM	Yeah, I'm writing up a few permutations of my Ultimate Spiked Chain builds and the Wolf Berserker feat is making an appearance in the ones with Barb levels. It's a damn good feat. Especially since I am becoming more disenchanted with Disarm as time goes by. Which means I can bypass Expertise and keep my builds more tightly focused to tripping or outright damage dealing. I'm also finding I like to take 2 of the Lodge feats for some of my builds using the "Lodge switching rule". Hence, that level or 2 of Barbarian gets a lot of mileage. Since my one group adventures in that area a lot anyway, the dynamics of lodge switching would be easier to justify. Snow
Korwin 11-03-03, 09:50 AM	*bump because of prune*
Eagle Prince 11-03-03, 08:37 PM	I was considering using the Wolf Berserk/Improved Trip thing for my character. But I am unsure about Knockdown. Its really cool flavor-wise, but I don't know if its worth a feat. If I am already really good at tripping, it seems my trip attempt would have as good if not better chance of hitting than an attack, and once tripped I get an extra +4 on my attacks. It seems more advantegeous to trip them first. Anyone have much expertience with Knockdown who might know better?
DeadEye 11-03-03, 08:53 PM	My opinion of Knock-Down is that it's a safety barrier. It changes the sequence of events from trip then attack, to attack then trip. Given the amount of botched rolls I tend to get when making trip checks (I swear, as soon as the DM and I make opposed rolls it's like my d20 is guaranteed a 3 or less), I appreciate the safety barrier that you get when you hit the guy first. At least then you've contributed something for the round. If you miss your trip, then you lose out on the free attack it generates. Also, if you've got the feat slots (and you're playing 3.5) then working up into Whirlwind Attack works wonders. Hitting everyone within 20' of you and then tripping them all is great. Of course, if you can't beat someone's AC when you're attacking them, it's a better idea to trip first for that +4 when they're prone. The choice to trip first is still available.
MegaPlex 11-04-03, 03:34 AM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince I was considering using the Wolf Berserk/Improved Trip thing for my character. But I am unsure about Knockdown. One possible variation on this theme is Two Weapon Fighting Since Trip attacks are touch attacks, most things you are going to trip will be easy to hit. Also, using your off-hand for opposed Str checks does not incure a penalty. To make this work, wield a Sickle (light weapon that allows trip attacks) as your off-hand weapon. If you fail the trip attempt, you can just drop it and wack away with your primary weapon. With 3.5, TWF with a light weapon incures a -2, -2 penalty, which is easily offset by high Str and raging. Think of it as a free trip attack each round!
Eagle Prince 11-04-03, 09:51 AM	I would love to do TWF, but I don't have high enough Dex. Otherwise I would have taken it at first level to use battleaxe + shield TWF. The only other way I could do it is take ranger, and 2 levels is the most I could take and not screw up my build. So I could never get Improved/Greater TWF, which isn't totally nessesary but kinda a drag.