Best skills for a skill monkey? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best skills for a skill monkey? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zaxter
01-26-06, 12:44 PM As the title of this thread implies, I'm looking for the best skills for a skill monkey character to focus on improving. I'm playing one in an upcoming epic-level campaign, and I plan on taking levels in Exemplar, but I can't decide which abilities would be the best to apply Skill Artistry to. This is going to be a high-charisma build, followed closely by intelligence and dexterity. The character is a scout//bard/exemplar (did I mention this was gestalt, too?), in case that makes any difference. Also, feel free to suggest better classes. I can't help but feel that I'm underpowering myself somehow... :thinks:
Tweedledope
01-26-06, 12:59 PM Use...Magic...Device...100% essential.

Other than that, I always like Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Disable Device, Decipher Script and generally any others that can't be taken by many classes.

I would avoid those with only slightly useful uses such as Appraise, Ride, Handle Animal, etc. (unless of course, you're a druid...then, you had better have handle animal).

Don't ever forget the power of ranks in Craft either. Craft (Poisons/Alchemy/Trapmaking) are my favorite three.

-=TD=-
nastynate
01-26-06, 01:01 PM The most useful skill set is often very campaign specific. Open lock, and disable devise are almost always useful, but beyond those two it's hard to say. I've played in campaigns where knowledge (history) was the most important skill your character could get, while in others decipher script was really key.

Skills I find myself using very frequently are tumble, spot, search, and gather information, but those may not be effective in the story you're in. The better question is what do you think you'll need?

On the CO boards we can tell you how to get the best modifiers to a skill, but we can't tell you what you'll use most often. Check with your DM, and see what he thinks will be most useful, and then come back to us to find out how to be good at them.
Zaxter
01-26-06, 01:16 PM Tweedledope: Yeah, UMD is good, but the amount of ranks you really need in it caps out after a while. I'm looking for something that gets better with the size of your skill mod.

nastynate: To be completely honest with you, I barely know anything about this campaign so far. The DM has been very vague. I think he mentioned exploding pigs at a wedding, or something. Any idea what skills could come in handy for dealing with that? :looloo: But other than that, I'll agree and say that disable device and open lock are probably good ideas. Better put some empasis on search, too, I suppose...

Thanks for your input, guys.
Prominence
01-26-06, 01:18 PM Yeah, UMD is good, but the amount of ranks you really need in it caps out after a while.
Not really, as I understand it you can use UMD to fake your caster level higher to use with a staff. More UMD means a higher caster level check, meaning a staff of holy word can kill anything.
Todd
01-26-06, 01:29 PM Tweedledope: Yeah, UMD is good, but the amount of ranks you really need in it caps out after a while.

Not really true. If you want to cast epic spells from scrolls for instance you will want maxed out UMD. Other things like using wands do cap out. Personally I would pick UMD as one of my maxed skills & one of the first I would choose to be able to take 10 on.

As for your build, I would try to work 1 to 3 levels of Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) in there. Motivate Charisma would be a given I think.

If you have access to Magic of Incarnum the base classes or feats in that book might be of some help too.
Zaxter
01-26-06, 02:01 PM Prominence and Todd, you both have valid points. I guess I just thought "no epic application listed? Pass.", without realizing that it allows you to pump up your caster level checks, as well as use epic-level scrolls. And that Marshall class is pretty cool. It just makes me want to get the miniatures handbook even more.

I do have MoI (and it's my favorite book at the moment, too), but a friend of mine convinced me not to use it since my build was getting a little too powerful with it. ;)
fafnisbani
01-26-06, 02:23 PM I do have MoI (and it's my favorite book at the moment, too), but a friend of mine convinced me not to use it since my build was getting a little too powerful with it. ;)

So, what about posting your build then} ;) Would be fun to see a nice skill monkey... :D
Zaxter
01-26-06, 02:25 PM Actually, my original build wasn't a skill monkey at all. That came after I was convinced not to use MoI. :P

Original build was, in a nutshell, a warlock/umbral disciple, with some other goodies thrown in there.
Zemyla
01-26-06, 02:32 PM Forgery is a good one, as it is opposed by another forgery check, and who takes ranks in that?
Zaxter
01-27-06, 01:56 PM Okay, I finally talked to my DM, and I think I have my skills down pretty well now. However, now I need help picking out feats (this character is an archer, BTW). I have a lot of things I can't decide on:

1) Is the Point Blank Shot/Dodge/Mobility/Shot on the Run chain worth it? I can get those all from bonus feats as a scout, so they don't interfere with my normal feat progression. If there's something better I could do with those feats, though, I'd certainly like to hear.

2) What are good general feats for a skill monkey? I'm thinking about taking Open Minded a few times, but with the rate this guy is already getting skill points from levels I'm not sure if an extra 10 or 15 skill points is really worth burning a bunch of feats for (even if they're just exemplar bonus feats).

3) Is it worth taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)? At the moment, this character is only proficient with shortbows; however, the reason I'm considering taking EWP is more for the extra range, not so much the extra damage.

4) Is Versatile Performer actually useful?

5) What are good metamagic feats for a bard?

6) Is Distant Shot a good epic feat to take? It seems useful. And what about Polyglot? Is that one any good? I'm definitely taking Epic Leadership, so that means I only have one other epic feat to take for this guy during creation, and I want to choose wisely.
carnivore
01-27-06, 02:02 PM 2 feats come to mind:

Quick reconoiter: allows you to make 1 Search and 1 Spot check each round as a Free action.

there is a feat from "Lords of Madness" which makes creatures with special senses(tremorsense,blindsight,etc...) have to roll Spot and Listen checks to find you

:D
Zaxter
01-27-06, 02:25 PM I don't really see how that's useful. Generally speaking, you don't make search and spot checks actively during battle, which is the only time that I can think of that the amount of time to perform an action makes much of a difference.

And regarding the other one...I don't have LoM.
Lilt
01-27-06, 03:11 PM I've always loved a bit of Chameleon in my skill-monkey builds. Firstly it gives you a source of spells for the various skill-boosting spells and secondly it gives you a portable feat with which you can take any feat for which you qualify. As you qualify for epic feats... yeah.
Dnjscott
01-27-06, 03:27 PM Yea, that LOM feat (Darkhunter, I believe) is just awesome. You can hide from scent! What's up with that?

I'd suggest you pick up Dragon Compendium and play a Savant... every skill as a class skill and 8 per.... plus bardic lore, arcane and divine casting, the ability to help others with skill checks...

etc!
Zaxter
01-27-06, 07:17 PM Lilt: We already have a Chameleon in our group, actually. Maybe I'll consider a dip, though.

Dnjscott: Arcane and divine spellcasting? Sounds like something that would be shunned for gestalt characters. I'm pretty sure I mentioned this character was gestalt, didn't I? *checks* Yeah, I mentioned it in the first post. The character is a scout//bard/exemplar (did I mention this was gestalt, too?), in case that makes any difference.Besides, Exemplar already gets the same skill benefits you mentioned - 8+int skill points per level and all skills are class skills.
Lilt
01-27-06, 08:36 PM Have you considered going Spellthief over Scout and using your Dips&PrCs side to make a mobile fighter? I'm playing a spellthief right now and I imagine it'd be awesome at epic if given a fair progression. You'll probably get a few fewer skillpoints but a bit of spellthievery can go a long, long, way especially if you have a source for spells via absorb spell (warlocks are good at this).
Zaxter
01-27-06, 08:48 PM Actually, the chameleon in our group is also a spellthief. He's more of a trapfinder/disabler/sneak attacker, though, if I'm not mistaken. I intend to be the various-other-skill monkey.
Alastar
01-27-06, 09:12 PM How about perform, if your going for a bard character, that suggestion and fascinate abilities have a DC that is directly related to your perform skill, quit ethe usefull thing if you ask me. Perform (Oratory performance) **snicker** is my personal favorite, but any other can be good depending on character, even perform (exploding pigs) or perform (sexual performance), althought the later has less use then one might see ....
imneuromancer
01-27-06, 11:30 PM The most useful skill set is often very campaign specific.

As the 5th edition Call of Cthulhu game stated, the most important skill is the one for which the GM is making you roll.

Wise words.
X-Codes
01-28-06, 02:06 AM Skill Artistry = crap because it doesn't stack with +skill items which is what you invest in if you really want to pump your skill checks up.

Basically everyone wants at least 1 rank in UMD and UPD, whether it's a class skill or not, and whether you have a large skill pool or not. You can use magic items later to auto-success wands and low-level scrolls and such.

Otherwise, skillmonkeys benefit depending on their party role. In my honest opinion, all Skillmonkey characters should have Int as their highest even stat at startup, and their highest should be the one in paren... whatevers:

Primary Skills:
Any: Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently
Face/Infiltrator (charisma): Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Disguise, Intimidate
Scout (wisdom): Spot, Listen, Disable Device, Search
Thief (dexterity): Spot, Listen, Sleight of Hand, Bluff

Secondary Skills:
All: Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Tumble
Face/Infiltrator (charisma): Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Gather Information, Forgery
Scout (wisdom): Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Survival, Use Rope
Thief (dexterity): Knowledge (local), Knowledge (geography), Appraise, Intimidate

Of course, broadening your horizons is always good. Having a few ranks in other skills that aren't opposed checks will not hurt you at all.
Zaxter
01-29-06, 02:22 AM This character needs to be done soon, so I would appreciate if I could get answers for my other questions ASAP.

(As a reminder, here were the questions: )
1) Is the Point Blank Shot/Dodge/Mobility/Shot on the Run chain worth it? I can get those all from bonus feats as a scout, so they don't interfere with my normal feat progression. If there's something better I could do with those feats, though, I'd certainly like to hear.

2) What are good general feats for a skill monkey? I'm thinking about taking Open Minded a few times, but with the rate this guy is already getting skill points from levels I'm not sure if an extra 10 or 15 skill points is really worth burning a bunch of feats for (even if they're just exemplar bonus feats).

3) Is it worth taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)? At the moment, this character is only proficient with shortbows; however, the reason I'm considering taking EWP is more for the extra range, not so much the extra damage.

4) Is Versatile Performer actually useful?

5) What are good metamagic feats for a bard?

6) Is Distant Shot a good epic feat to take? It seems useful. And what about Polyglot? Is that one any good? I'm definitely taking Epic Leadership, so that means I only have one other epic feat to take for this guy during creation, and I want to choose wisely
X-Codes
01-29-06, 04:58 AM Shot on the Run: I'm personally indifferent. I think the Manyshot chain is better for scouts, and you can't do a Manyshot on the Run. Frankly, I'd rather take all the shots I can and maybe bring the opponent down as opposed to play it safe and keep bouncing in and out of the 30' mark. Besides, if you have a half-decent tank or two then you can stand inside 30' quite safely most of the time (if you can't, you shouldn't be sticking around =P).

Open Minded: Even Exemplar Bonus Feats are better than this. Exemplars get Track, Improved Initiative, and others that are actually very worthwile.

EWP (Greatbow): You can't add precision damage outside of 30' anyway regardless of what skillmonkey role you choose. Fighters have better ranged weapon abilities anyway, even if their Dex is lower than yours.

Versatile Performer: Only in certain circumstances. There are a number of magic items and feats that require different variants of the Perform skill to use and this feat lets you take all of them without the extra skill rank expenditure. The problem is, most of these items are pretty well unused.

Metamagic for Bard: None of them. A lesser Extend Rod will be more than enough to fill your metamagic needs through the middle Bard levels (typically used on Alter Self and Haste).

Distant Shot: Maybe. If you are in a lot of positions where making *really* long range attacks is useful, then yes it is worthwile. It's still often better left to the primary combatant, however.
Zaxter
01-29-06, 11:50 AM Ah, I completely forgot about the range limit on skirmish's damage bonus! Thanks for reminding me. Range doesn't seem quite as important anymore. :D I also forgot all about metamagic rods (I rarely play casters of any kind). Thanks, you helped me out a bit there.

Oh, and a new question -- would it be worth shifting 2 levels of Exemplar to Bard levels? That would give me Bard19 and Exemplar8.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zaxter 01-26-06, 12:44 PM	As the title of this thread implies, I'm looking for the best skills for a skill monkey character to focus on improving. I'm playing one in an upcoming epic-level campaign, and I plan on taking levels in Exemplar, but I can't decide which abilities would be the best to apply Skill Artistry to. This is going to be a high-charisma build, followed closely by intelligence and dexterity. The character is a scout//bard/exemplar (did I mention this was gestalt, too?), in case that makes any difference. Also, feel free to suggest better classes. I can't help but feel that I'm underpowering myself somehow... :thinks:
Tweedledope 01-26-06, 12:59 PM	Use...Magic...Device...100% essential. Other than that, I always like Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Disable Device, Decipher Script and generally any others that can't be taken by many classes. I would avoid those with only slightly useful uses such as Appraise, Ride, Handle Animal, etc. (unless of course, you're a druid...then, you had better have handle animal). Don't ever forget the power of ranks in Craft either. Craft (Poisons/Alchemy/Trapmaking) are my favorite three. -=TD=-
nastynate 01-26-06, 01:01 PM	The most useful skill set is often very campaign specific. Open lock, and disable devise are almost always useful, but beyond those two it's hard to say. I've played in campaigns where knowledge (history) was the most important skill your character could get, while in others decipher script was really key. Skills I find myself using very frequently are tumble, spot, search, and gather information, but those may not be effective in the story you're in. The better question is what do you think you'll need? On the CO boards we can tell you how to get the best modifiers to a skill, but we can't tell you what you'll use most often. Check with your DM, and see what he thinks will be most useful, and then come back to us to find out how to be good at them.
Zaxter 01-26-06, 01:16 PM	Tweedledope: Yeah, UMD is good, but the amount of ranks you really need in it caps out after a while. I'm looking for something that gets better with the size of your skill mod. nastynate: To be completely honest with you, I barely know anything about this campaign so far. The DM has been very vague. I think he mentioned exploding pigs at a wedding, or something. Any idea what skills could come in handy for dealing with that? :looloo: But other than that, I'll agree and say that disable device and open lock are probably good ideas. Better put some empasis on search, too, I suppose... Thanks for your input, guys.
Prominence 01-26-06, 01:18 PM	Yeah, UMD is good, but the amount of ranks you really need in it caps out after a while. Not really, as I understand it you can use UMD to fake your caster level higher to use with a staff. More UMD means a higher caster level check, meaning a staff of holy word can kill anything.
Todd 01-26-06, 01:29 PM	Tweedledope: Yeah, UMD is good, but the amount of ranks you really need in it caps out after a while. Not really true. If you want to cast epic spells from scrolls for instance you will want maxed out UMD. Other things like using wands do cap out. Personally I would pick UMD as one of my maxed skills & one of the first I would choose to be able to take 10 on. As for your build, I would try to work 1 to 3 levels of Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) in there. Motivate Charisma would be a given I think. If you have access to Magic of Incarnum the base classes or feats in that book might be of some help too.
Zaxter 01-26-06, 02:01 PM	Prominence and Todd, you both have valid points. I guess I just thought "no epic application listed? Pass.", without realizing that it allows you to pump up your caster level checks, as well as use epic-level scrolls. And that Marshall class is pretty cool. It just makes me want to get the miniatures handbook even more. I do have MoI (and it's my favorite book at the moment, too), but a friend of mine convinced me not to use it since my build was getting a little too powerful with it. ;)
fafnisbani 01-26-06, 02:23 PM	I do have MoI (and it's my favorite book at the moment, too), but a friend of mine convinced me not to use it since my build was getting a little too powerful with it. ;) So, what about posting your build then} ;) Would be fun to see a nice skill monkey... :D
Zaxter 01-26-06, 02:25 PM	Actually, my original build wasn't a skill monkey at all. That came after I was convinced not to use MoI. :P Original build was, in a nutshell, a warlock/umbral disciple, with some other goodies thrown in there.
Zemyla 01-26-06, 02:32 PM	Forgery is a good one, as it is opposed by another forgery check, and who takes ranks in that?
Zaxter 01-27-06, 01:56 PM	Okay, I finally talked to my DM, and I think I have my skills down pretty well now. However, now I need help picking out feats (this character is an archer, BTW). I have a lot of things I can't decide on: 1) Is the Point Blank Shot/Dodge/Mobility/Shot on the Run chain worth it? I can get those all from bonus feats as a scout, so they don't interfere with my normal feat progression. If there's something better I could do with those feats, though, I'd certainly like to hear. 2) What are good general feats for a skill monkey? I'm thinking about taking Open Minded a few times, but with the rate this guy is already getting skill points from levels I'm not sure if an extra 10 or 15 skill points is really worth burning a bunch of feats for (even if they're just exemplar bonus feats). 3) Is it worth taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)? At the moment, this character is only proficient with shortbows; however, the reason I'm considering taking EWP is more for the extra range, not so much the extra damage. 4) Is Versatile Performer actually useful? 5) What are good metamagic feats for a bard? 6) Is Distant Shot a good epic feat to take? It seems useful. And what about Polyglot? Is that one any good? I'm definitely taking Epic Leadership, so that means I only have one other epic feat to take for this guy during creation, and I want to choose wisely.
carnivore 01-27-06, 02:02 PM	2 feats come to mind: Quick reconoiter: allows you to make 1 Search and 1 Spot check each round as a Free action. there is a feat from "Lords of Madness" which makes creatures with special senses(tremorsense,blindsight,etc...) have to roll Spot and Listen checks to find you :D
Zaxter 01-27-06, 02:25 PM	I don't really see how that's useful. Generally speaking, you don't make search and spot checks actively during battle, which is the only time that I can think of that the amount of time to perform an action makes much of a difference. And regarding the other one...I don't have LoM.
Lilt 01-27-06, 03:11 PM	I've always loved a bit of Chameleon in my skill-monkey builds. Firstly it gives you a source of spells for the various skill-boosting spells and secondly it gives you a portable feat with which you can take any feat for which you qualify. As you qualify for epic feats... yeah.
Dnjscott 01-27-06, 03:27 PM	Yea, that LOM feat (Darkhunter, I believe) is just awesome. You can hide from scent! What's up with that? I'd suggest you pick up Dragon Compendium and play a Savant... every skill as a class skill and 8 per.... plus bardic lore, arcane and divine casting, the ability to help others with skill checks... etc!
Zaxter 01-27-06, 07:17 PM	Lilt: We already have a Chameleon in our group, actually. Maybe I'll consider a dip, though. Dnjscott: Arcane and divine spellcasting? Sounds like something that would be shunned for gestalt characters. I'm pretty sure I mentioned this character was gestalt, didn't I? checks Yeah, I mentioned it in the first post. The character is a scout//bard/exemplar (did I mention this was gestalt, too?), in case that makes any difference.Besides, Exemplar already gets the same skill benefits you mentioned - 8+int skill points per level and all skills are class skills.
Lilt 01-27-06, 08:36 PM	Have you considered going Spellthief over Scout and using your Dips&PrCs side to make a mobile fighter? I'm playing a spellthief right now and I imagine it'd be awesome at epic if given a fair progression. You'll probably get a few fewer skillpoints but a bit of spellthievery can go a long, long, way especially if you have a source for spells via absorb spell (warlocks are good at this).
Zaxter 01-27-06, 08:48 PM	Actually, the chameleon in our group is also a spellthief. He's more of a trapfinder/disabler/sneak attacker, though, if I'm not mistaken. I intend to be the various-other-skill monkey.
Alastar 01-27-06, 09:12 PM	How about perform, if your going for a bard character, that suggestion and fascinate abilities have a DC that is directly related to your perform skill, quit ethe usefull thing if you ask me. Perform (Oratory performance) snicker is my personal favorite, but any other can be good depending on character, even perform (exploding pigs) or perform (sexual performance), althought the later has less use then one might see ....
imneuromancer 01-27-06, 11:30 PM	The most useful skill set is often very campaign specific. As the 5th edition Call of Cthulhu game stated, the most important skill is the one for which the GM is making you roll. Wise words.
X-Codes 01-28-06, 02:06 AM	Skill Artistry = crap because it doesn't stack with +skill items which is what you invest in if you really want to pump your skill checks up. Basically everyone wants at least 1 rank in UMD and UPD, whether it's a class skill or not, and whether you have a large skill pool or not. You can use magic items later to auto-success wands and low-level scrolls and such. Otherwise, skillmonkeys benefit depending on their party role. In my honest opinion, all Skillmonkey characters should have Int as their highest even stat at startup, and their highest should be the one in paren... whatevers: Primary Skills: Any: Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently Face/Infiltrator (charisma): Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Disguise, Intimidate Scout (wisdom): Spot, Listen, Disable Device, Search Thief (dexterity): Spot, Listen, Sleight of Hand, Bluff Secondary Skills: All: Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Tumble Face/Infiltrator (charisma): Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Gather Information, Forgery Scout (wisdom): Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Survival, Use Rope Thief (dexterity): Knowledge (local), Knowledge (geography), Appraise, Intimidate Of course, broadening your horizons is always good. Having a few ranks in other skills that aren't opposed checks will not hurt you at all.
Zaxter 01-29-06, 02:22 AM	This character needs to be done soon, so I would appreciate if I could get answers for my other questions ASAP. (As a reminder, here were the questions: ) 1) Is the Point Blank Shot/Dodge/Mobility/Shot on the Run chain worth it? I can get those all from bonus feats as a scout, so they don't interfere with my normal feat progression. If there's something better I could do with those feats, though, I'd certainly like to hear. 2) What are good general feats for a skill monkey? I'm thinking about taking Open Minded a few times, but with the rate this guy is already getting skill points from levels I'm not sure if an extra 10 or 15 skill points is really worth burning a bunch of feats for (even if they're just exemplar bonus feats). 3) Is it worth taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)? At the moment, this character is only proficient with shortbows; however, the reason I'm considering taking EWP is more for the extra range, not so much the extra damage. 4) Is Versatile Performer actually useful? 5) What are good metamagic feats for a bard? 6) Is Distant Shot a good epic feat to take? It seems useful. And what about Polyglot? Is that one any good? I'm definitely taking Epic Leadership, so that means I only have one other epic feat to take for this guy during creation, and I want to choose wisely
X-Codes 01-29-06, 04:58 AM	Shot on the Run: I'm personally indifferent. I think the Manyshot chain is better for scouts, and you can't do a Manyshot on the Run. Frankly, I'd rather take all the shots I can and maybe bring the opponent down as opposed to play it safe and keep bouncing in and out of the 30' mark. Besides, if you have a half-decent tank or two then you can stand inside 30' quite safely most of the time (if you can't, you shouldn't be sticking around =P). Open Minded: Even Exemplar Bonus Feats are better than this. Exemplars get Track, Improved Initiative, and others that are actually very worthwile. EWP (Greatbow): You can't add precision damage outside of 30' anyway regardless of what skillmonkey role you choose. Fighters have better ranged weapon abilities anyway, even if their Dex is lower than yours. Versatile Performer: Only in certain circumstances. There are a number of magic items and feats that require different variants of the Perform skill to use and this feat lets you take all of them without the extra skill rank expenditure. The problem is, most of these items are pretty well unused. Metamagic for Bard: None of them. A lesser Extend Rod will be more than enough to fill your metamagic needs through the middle Bard levels (typically used on Alter Self and Haste). Distant Shot: Maybe. If you are in a lot of positions where making really long range attacks is useful, then yes it is worthwile. It's still often better left to the primary combatant, however.
Zaxter 01-29-06, 11:50 AM	Ah, I completely forgot about the range limit on skirmish's damage bonus! Thanks for reminding me. Range doesn't seem quite as important anymore. :D I also forgot all about metamagic rods (I rarely play casters of any kind). Thanks, you helped me out a bit there. Oh, and a new question -- would it be worth shifting 2 levels of Exemplar to Bard levels? That would give me Bard19 and Exemplar8.