Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yare 05-12-05, 09:58 AM	Here's a mean build for a TWF Sneak-attacker I'm using in a campaign right now (I'm only level 17 so far): L CLASS HD BAB F R W FEAT CLASS ABILITY 1 Rogue d6 0 0 2 0 Improved Initiative / Able Learner +1d6 Sneak, Trapfinding 2 Samurai (OA) d10 1 2 2 2 ----- 3 Ninja (OA) d6 2 2 2 4 Two-Weapon Fighting +2d6 Sneak, Ninja Dodge +1 4 Ninja (OA) d6 3 2 2 5 Poison Use 5 Ninja (OA) d6 4 3 3 5 +3d6 Sneak, Uncanny Dodge (retain dex) 6 Ninja (OA) d6 5 3 3 6 Weapon Finesse Speed of Darkness 7 Ninja (OA) d6 6 3 3 6 +4d6 Sneak, Ninja Dodge +2 8 Ninja (OA) d6 7 4 4 7 Uncanny Dodge (can not be flanked) 9 Ninja (OA) d6 8 4 4 7 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting +5d6 Sneak 10 Ninja (OA) d6 9 4 4 8 Shadow Run 11 Ninja (OA) d6 10 5 5 8 +6d6 Sneak 12 Assassin d6 10 5 7 8 Quick Draw +7d6 Sneak, Death Attack, Poison Use 13 Rogue d6 11 5 8 8 Evasion 14 Ninja (CAdv) d6 11 5 10 8 +8d6 Sneak, Trapfinding, Wisdom Bonus to AC 15 Warlock d6 11 5 10 10 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Eldritch Blast 1d6, Invocation (Darkness) 16 Warlock d6 12 5 10 11 Detect Magic, Invocation (Devil’s Sight) 17 Nightsong Enforcer d8 13 5 12 11 +9d6 Sneak, Teamwork (hear/see allies) 18 (Full BAB Class, probably Dread Commando. +1d6 Sneak) 19 (Full BAB Class, probably Dread Commando) 20 (Full BAB Class, probably Dread Commando. +1d6 Sneak) I'll give you a breakdown of how this monster works. You'll probably notice that through clever multiclassing, I have managed to acquire +9d6 Sneak Attack. That's more Sneak Attack dice than a straight rogue would have at this level. You might also notice that at level 20, I will have +16 BAB -making 4 iterative attacks (also better than the straight rogue). These two things alone make this a pretty solid build -but I have more tricks up my sleeve! The two levels of warlock (levels 15, 16) grant us some neat abilities. Eldritch Blast is a ranged touch attack that is compatible with Sneak Attack damage -always good to have as a backup. Invocation (Darkness) allows us to create magical darkness (as the spell) as a standard action, as many times per day as we please. Invocation (Devil's Sight) gives us the ability (one of the only, at that) to see through magical darkness for 24 hours -and it takes a standard action to cast and can be used as many times per day as you want. What is the point of this, you might ask? Darkness creates 20% concealment to all people affected by it. And concealed attackers get Sneak Attack damage. =) That means that any attacks you make inside of your sphere of darkness are Sneak Attacks (because you can see perfectly due to Devil's Sight) -while the enemy fumbles around and misses you 1/5 of the time. If your darkness gets dispelled, it's not a big deal. Just manifest it again (the dispeller will run out of spells, but you never run out of invocations). Hmmm.... you also get Detect Magic at will, which I imagine could be useful. The Oriental Adventures Ninja class (Levels 3-11, 14) is very, very nice. Full BAB and Sneak attack progression, and some neat abilities. Ninja Dodge is like Dodge, only better. Poison Use is great for that extra edge. "Speed of Darkness" adds your Intelligence modifier to your Initiative (very important for any rogue-types). "Shadow Run" grants you a speed bonus equal to 5 times your Constitution modifier. The single Complete Adventurer Ninja level (level 14) grants Wisdom to AC (sweet). The Oriental Adventures Samurai level (OA) is there to bring the Iaijutsu Focus skill into play. If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a weapon, you roll an Iaijutsu Focus (Cha) check to add bonus d6 damage. The damage ranges from +1d6 on a check result of 10, to +9d6 on a check result of 50+. This is where the hilarity starts. Quick-Draw makes drawing a weapon (and sheathing, if you have a nice GM like I do) a free action rather than a move action. That means that if you carry 7 weapons on you, you can draw each one and then attack (and then drop it to draw another one) and apply Iaijutsu Focus bonus damage to every single attack you make (along with the +9d6 Sneak Attack damage) to completely gib the poor target. If you can convince your GM that Quick-Draw should double as Quick-Sheath (or get him to create an appropriate feat that you can take next level), then this craziness gets even better as you only need to carry your two main weapons. I believe that my average Iaijutsu damage ranges from +3d6 to +7d6, making +12d6 to +16d6 damage on every attack when combined with Sneak attack. Assuming an average of +14d6 damage, and using Ninja-To as I am, you're looking at an average of 367 damage per round if all of your 7 attacks hit. If you want to be a real bastard about it, get a Brilliant Energy (+4) weapon and ignore everyone's Armor bonus to AC. If you catch them flat-footed as well (or in the dark), that makes their AC what? 10? The Able Learner feat (level 1) lets you buy cross-class skill ranks for 1 skill point rather than 2, making it a little easier to keep some of those important Rogue skills up, as well as Iaijutsu focus. This is a great independent build. The drawback is that it is horribly multiple attribute dependant. Str : Not needed. Keep awful low. Dex : For attack and Initiative and AC. Should be your highest stat. Con : HP and your bonus run speed from "Shadow Run". Also helps your abysmal Fort save. Can't hurt to keep this up. Int : Skill points, and "Speed of Darkness" bonus to Initiative. Wis : Wisdom bonus to AC. Very important for this build since you can't wear armor without losing a lot of Ninja abilities. Cha : Important for Iaijutsu Focus, but not much else. Keep this pretty low, if you like. Another great variant of this build would be to drop the level of Samurai, and Quick Draw, and go for another level of a +1 BAB Sneak Attacking class like OA Ninja or Dread Commando. Then grab a feat like Improved Critical or Weapon Focus. There's a lot you can do with this build, really. I built it to be self-sufficient (no need for other party members to help me flank, etc...), but you can focus it more one way or the other for great results. Note a great thing about this build is the Initiative. Improved Initiative + Int Mod + Dex Mod == The win. Darkness has been cast, and your enemies are soon to be blended into a fine red mist
rilem 05-12-05, 10:32 AM	Darkness creates 20% concealment to all people affected by it. And concealed attackers get Sneak Attack damage. =)... No, they don't. Defenders don't lose their Dex to AC against a concealed opponent, only an invisible one. You can find this in the rules, but here's a quick link to WotC's "Rules of the Game" feature on Sneak Attacks, which you'll probably want to read: All About Sneak Attacks: Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a) Here's the relevant text: ... it's only total concealment that interferes with Dexterity bonuses to Armor Class ... This fact alone takes much of the air out of your offense. Warlock still goes well with Sneak Attackers, but not for that reason. Let's continue with the critique: Yes, Iajutsu Focus and Rokugan Ninja are powerful. Both are well-documented on the boards. But you're missing Able Learner, and that single Samurai level is the only one with IF as a class skill, so you'll be wasting a lot of cross-class points on a tactic that isn't that useful beyond the first round — it's very hard to make someone flat-footed after combat starts. (Not impossible, but you haven't picked one of the appropriate tactics). Read the rules again — darkness doesn't do it. Plus, most DMs nerf Iajutsu Focus when their players start abusing it. Same goes for Rokugan Ninja. It was more popular before Complete Adventurer, b/c it was the only Ninja available and it was free via PDF. But, again, you're a little out of data. That PDF has been errated — Ninjas get good Reflex Save, not Will. But yes, it's still strong, though most people bail after 4 levels. Mixing Two Ninja classes is just tacky. Dread Commando doesn't get Sneak Attack, but the SA-lite Sudden Strike. Not as good. More later...
HippieKiller 05-12-05, 10:37 AM	If I'm not mistaken you are getting major xp penalties due to your "clever" multiclassing, you have 5 base classes....
rilem 05-12-05, 10:52 AM	He's OK there, as he's RokuganNinja9/Rogue2/CANinja1/Warlock2/OASamurai1/Assassin1/Nightsong Enforcer1 — all base classes but Rok. Ninja are within a level of each other. Also, I see you did put Able Learner in —*those coding windows aren't the best format for this sort of thing —*sorry I missed that. Some other points: - ITWF requires BAB +6, not +5. Move up Weapon Finesse.
Yare 05-12-05, 10:54 AM	No, they don't. Defenders don't lose their Dex to AC against a concealed opponent, only an invisible one. You can find this in the rules, but here's a quick link to WotC's "Rules of the Game" feature on Sneak Attacks, which you'll probably want to read: All About Sneak Attacks: Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a) Thanks for pointing that out. I thought I had read somewhere once that even partially-concealed attackers gained sneak attack damage. I suppose it didn't help that some popular 3rd edition games make the same mistake I did in that regard. Yes, Iajutsu Focus and Rokugan Ninja are powerful. Both are well-documented on the boards. But you're missing Able Learner, Actually, I'm not. it's very hard to make someone flat-footed after combat starts. Flanking would do it, but I was trying to avoid needing other people to pull this off. Plus Sudden Strike doesn't work when flanking. I could just get a ring or wand or scroll of Greater Invisibility, I suppose. Same goes for Rokugan Ninja. It was more popular before Complete Adventurer, b/c it was the only Ninja available and it was free via PDF. But, again, you're a little out of data. That PDF has been errated — Ninjas get good Reflex Save, not Will. But yes, it's still strong, though most people bail after 4 levels. That's a shame. Mixing Two Ninja classes is just tacky. I don't see why. Just because they share a name? The CAdv ninja is more of a Ninja Mystic, while the OA ninja is a Ninja Warrior. Think about them like that if it makes you feel better. If the Barbarian class were called "Fighter" and so were Paladins, would it change the fact that they are actually very different classes? Dread Commando doesn't get Sneak Attack, but the SA-lite Sudden Strike. Not as good. Same thing with a few of the other classes I multiclassed into, if I recall. The CAdv Ninja, for one. The only real difference is that Sudden Strike doesn't work while flanking (which seems pointless from a balance perspective), but I wasn't planning on doing a lot of flanking for my sneak attacks with this character anyway. By removing the two levels of Warlock, I'm sure I can substitute for something that will help me make my opponents flat-footed. Or maybe I'll leave it, since our GM has house-ruled that magical darkness gives total concealment anyway. More later... I appreciate it.
Yare 05-12-05, 10:56 AM	- ITWF requires BAB +6, not +5. Move up Weapon Finesse. Fix'd.
rilem 05-12-05, 12:30 PM	Flanking would do it, but I was trying to avoid needing other people to pull this off. .. 1. Flanking doesn't make people flat-footed, either. After the start of combat, people are not made flat-footed except through a very few conditions, most of them in splatbooks. Flick of the Wrist does it, once per opponent per battle. Giantbane does it with the Duck Underneath maneuver. Removing two levels of warlock won't help, BTW, because your problem is feat choices and not class abilities. It's not impossible — nose around the board and you'll see lots of Iajutsu abuse. Most depend on a lenient DM, though. 2. Mixing Ninja and Rokugan Ninja is tacky because they are two takes on the same class. It's like mixing the Races of Faces Bladesinger and he PGF Bladesinger (which is stupid as well as tacky, btw). The fact that two Ninjas are from separate publishing houses raises another red flag. I'm not saying it's illegal, just that a lot of DMs will probably veto it. If yours doesn't, no problem. 3. Yes, WotC Ninja also gets sudden strike — one reason why so few people like it. Sudden Strike is not terrible for a hit-and-run attacker — if you had hide in plain sight or swift invisibility, you could use it nicely. But you AREN'T a hit-and-run attacker. TWF doesn't work well with hit-and-run tactics, because you need to make full attacks against your foe. That means, to reliably use sneak attack for all your attacks, you need: 1. Flanking 2. Improved Invisibility or Improved Blink, or total concealment + blindsight. 3. Invisible Blade's free-action feint. You might be better off editing the TWF out of this, and reconfiguring yourself as a spring attacker. Or use one of Mommy Was an Orc's Warlock/Daggerspell builds — Rog2/Fighter1/Warlock4/DaggerspellMage8/MasterThrower1/Nightsong4 or Rog2/Fighter1/Warlock4/InvisibleBlade5/DaggerspellMage8
Zemyla 05-12-05, 12:35 PM	There aren't many others. The grease spell will do quite well against anyone who doesn't have at least 5 ranks in Balance. And, to be perfectly honest, what NPCs do? *NOTE: This is completely core!* The distract assailant spell from CV also makes a foe flat-footed for one round as a swift action. Also, I remember hearing about a blurstrike weapon (I think from Races of the Wild) that makes your foe flat-footed for the first attack against it. So, yes, there are many others.
rilem 05-12-05, 01:02 PM	The grease spell will do quite well against anyone who doesn't have at least 5 ranks in Balance. And, to be perfectly honest, what NPCs do? *NOTE: This is completely core!* The distract assailant spell... All true. And how much spellcasting ability did you see in the original poster's build? Assassins probably get Distract Assailant, but he's only got the 1 level; not too much help there. Note that this build is pretty light on skills (Rokugan Ninja/Nightsong 4+Int, Warlock 2+). I'm not sure he'll have the balance ranks to attack reliably on a greased surface, unless he's an Elocator. Good point on Blurstrike, I don't have RotW but I believe that's a common source of the Iajutsu abuse lately.
rilem 05-12-05, 01:37 PM	How about this: Not as many attacks, but Iajutsu Ninja HumanParagon1 or OASamurai1/RokuganNinja4/Assassin8/IajutsuMaster2/DreadCommando5 BAB +17 or +18, depending on your first-level choice. - Int. to Armor, Init., Spells and Death Attack. - Cha to Initiative - +5 to Init. From Dread Commando - Sneak attack 6d6 + Sudden Strike 3d6 - Finesse with Katana - Pretty good spellcasting - Hide in Plain Sight, Poison Use Use your spells and HiPS to keep yourself hidden, then use Distract Opponent to make ‘em flat-footed. Dart in, Smack ‘em silly (use arcane strike if you feel like it to boost damage further.) Nymph's Kiss helps Skills and I.F. checks. Feats: Keen Intellect (OA 3.5), Power Attack, Improved Initiative, WF (Katana), Dodge*, Mobility, Spring Attack, Nymph’s Kiss. Arcane Strike
Yare 05-12-05, 01:59 PM	How about this: Not as many attacks, but Iajutsu Ninja HumanParagon1 or OASamurai1/RokuganNinja4/Assassin8/IajutsuMaster2/DreadCommando5 BAB +17 or +18, depending on your first-level choice. - Int. to Armor, Init., Spells and Death Attack. - Cha to Initiative - +5 to Init. From Dread Commando - Sneak attack 6d6 + Sudden Strike 3d6 - Finesse with Katana - Pretty good spellcasting - Hide in Plain Sight, Poison Use I like this idea. Is there room to work in a level of the WotC Ninja to gain Wis to AC as well and another +1d6 sudden strike? Where is the Human Paragon BTW?
Zsasz_Diedne 05-12-05, 03:08 PM	Get a ring of Blinking:)
rilem 05-12-05, 03:09 PM	Human Paragon is from Unearthed Arcans -- pick any bunch of skills, plus one that is always in-class. 3/4 BAB, can't recall which good save. I'm not sure it's better than Able Learner + OA Samurai, unless you really are feat-challenged. Another Option is Tempest, which gives you TWF Spring Attack at level 5. Not sure that's worth it either. For Wis to AC, you could give up Commando5 (no change in sudden strike) or Iajutsu Master2, if your Charisma is low and you don't care about Cha to Int. Or, if you've got a lenient DM, just wear a monk's belt. By the letter of the rules, it gives you Wisdom to AC +1. I thought about that, but I was focusing on maxxing out Initiative (for the flat-footed Iajutsu Focus attack) and didn't want to get too ability-dependent. Assuming stats of 10/18/14/16/10/14, this guy will have an Init mod. of +18 (+20, if he springs for the Blooded feat).
Kintara 05-12-05, 03:15 PM	How does Grease make you flat-footed? Falling prone doesn't deny you your Dex bonus. It gives you a flat AC penalty against melee attacks.
Yare 05-12-05, 03:34 PM	Ok I've worked out the kinks from my previous build (namely that partial cover doesn't grant you sneak attacks). Here's what I've come up with for 17 levels: L CLASS HD BAB F R W SKILLS FEAT CLASS ABILITY 1 Ninja (OA) d6 1 0 0 2 36 Improved Initiative / Mobility +1d6 Sneak, Ninja Dodge +1 2 Ninja (OA) d6 2 0 0 3 9 Poison Use 3 Ninja (OA) d6 3 1 1 3 9 Two-Weapon Fighting +2d6 Sneak, Uncanny Dodge (retain dex) 4 Ninja (OA) d6 4 1 1 4 9 Speed of Darkness 5 Ninja (OA) d6 5 1 1 4 9 +3d6 Sneak, Ninja Dodge +2 6 Ninja (OA) d6 6 2 2 5 9 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Uncanny Dodge (can not be flanked) 7 Ninja (OA) d6 7 2 2 5 9 +4d6 Sneak 8 Ninja (OA) d6 8 2 2 6 9 Shadow Run 9 Ninja (OA) d6 9 3 3 6 9 Weapon Focus (Katana) +5d6 Sneak 10 Ninja (CAdv) d6 9 3 5 6 11 +6d6 Sneak, Trapfinding, Wisdom Bonus to AC 11 Samurai (OA) d10 10 5 5 8 9 Ancestral Daisho (katana and wakazashi) 12 Iaijutsu Master d10 11 5 7 8 9 Quick Draw Weapon Finesse (katana and wakazashi), Intelligence Bonus to AC 13 Dread Commando ??? 12 ??? ??? ??? 11 +7d6 Sneak, Team Initiative Bonus (+Class Level) 14 Dread Commando ??? 13 ??? ??? ??? 11 Armored Ease (-2) 15 Dread Commando ??? 14 ??? ??? ??? 11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting +8d6 Sneak 16 Dread Commando ??? 15 ??? ??? ??? 11 Armored Ease (-4), Stealthy Movement (normal speed while hide/ms, -10 for running) 17 Dread Commando ??? 16 ??? ??? ??? 11 +9d6 Sneak Note that I don't have Heroes of Battle yet and so I don't know what the progression for Dread Commando looks like. The skill points are calculated for a human with an Int of 18. My DM is oblivious to any material that I don't print out and bring him -so for my sake I'm going to use the "out of date" Rokugan Ninja's save progression. Also, he has decided that Sudden Strike = Sneak Attack. What's more, we're playing a very high-powered campaign (high stats, relatively low gold and items). My stats at level 17 are as follows: Str: 10 (0) Dex: 22 (6) Con: 18 (4) Int: 18 (4) Wis: 18 (4) Cha: 10 (0) Factoring in some of the abilities in this build, I would have the following: Unarmored AC: 22 = 10 base + 4 Dex + 4 Int + 4 Wis Base Move Speed: 50’ Base Initiative: +17 = 4 Dex + 4 Int + 5 Dread Commando +4 Improved Initiative Attack (katana): +21 = 16 BAB + 6 Dex + 1 Katana Focus -2 TWF Full Attack: [Katana] +21/+16/+11/+6 [Wakazashi] +20/+15/+5 Comments or suggestions? Note that there are 3 levels remaining. I was considering Shadowdancer 1 for HiPS, and then taking levels of more classes that will increase my Sneak Attack dice (Rogue 1, for example). What do you think? Or I could go Shadowdancer 2 to get Evasion, (I do like me some evasion) which would then qualify me for the Nightsong Enforcer.
Pyrthas 05-12-05, 03:35 PM	He's OK there, as he's RokuganNinja9/Rogue2/CANinja1/Warlock2/OASamurai1/Assassin1/Nightsong Enforcer1 — all base classes but Rok. Ninja are within a level of each other.Unless Rokugan Ninja is a PrC (I don't have OA, but I'm guessing that it isn't), that's a massive xp penalty. You get the penalty for every class not within 1 level of your highest level base class, don't you?
Yare 05-12-05, 03:36 PM	Unless Rokugan Ninja is a PrC (I don't have OA, but I'm guessing that it isn't), that's a massive xp penalty. You get the penalty for every class not within 1 level of your highest level base class, don't you? I believe you are correct, but it's moot in this case regardless. My DM doesn't calculate experience -he just levels the party up at specific points in the campaign.
Broblawsky0 05-12-05, 03:48 PM	Raptor School lets you feint to render opponents flat-footed using BAB instead of Bluff. Mix with Improved Feint and you can hurt people really, really badly.
rilem 05-12-05, 04:06 PM	How does Grease make you flat-footed? Falling prone doesn't deny you your Dex bonus. It gives you a flat AC penalty against melee attacks. Falling doesn't, balancing does unless you've got balance. Check the balance skill. Goofy, but true. Unless Rokugan Ninja is a PrC (I don't have OA, but I'm guessing that it isn't), that's a massive xp penalty. You get the penalty for every class not within 1 level of your highest level base class, don't you? Not if the highest level class is "favored" for your race — and humans always consider their highest-level class as favored. Where you get penalized is if your non-favored classes are more than 1 level apart. So while a Ninja9/Sam1/Monk1 doesn't invoke penalties, a Ninja7/Sam3/Monk1 does. If this PC was, say an elf (favored class wizard, not ninja) then yes, lots of penalties. Raptor School lets you feint to render opponents flat-footed using BAB instead of Bluff. Mix with Improved Feint ... Yes, but this isn't great for most sneak attackers, whose bluff ranks are probably going to be 4+ higher than their BAB. It is good for the Iajutsu Master and is less-bad for a Rokugan Ninja or other full-BAB sneak attacker.
Zemyla 05-12-05, 04:09 PM	How does Grease make you flat-footed? Falling prone doesn't deny you your Dex bonus. It gives you a flat AC penalty against melee attacks. Being Attacked while Balancing You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. It is self-evident.
Caelic 05-12-05, 04:42 PM	Self-evident, perhaps, but not necessarily RAW. Having to make a Balance check doesn't automatically mean that you're balancing as defined by the feat. (Note that the Grease spell doesn't say anything about being subject to the other effects of balancing, such as having to make a second check if hit while moving.) I would personally agree with this interpretation, but an interpretation is what it ultimately is.
Khazra Reborn 05-12-05, 04:56 PM	Everyone knows the best sneak attackers are craven TWFing neraph daggerspellmages draconic polymorphed into kelvezus under the affect of a nightstalkers transformation with contingent tensers.....Full BaB, at least 15 SA dice resulting in 2100 damage...easy
Yare 05-12-05, 06:03 PM	Everyone knows the best sneak attackers are craven TWFing neraph daggerspellmages draconic polymorphed into kelvezus under the affect of a nightstalkers transformation with contingent tensers.....Full BaB, at least 15 SA dice resulting in 2100 damage...easy That requires a monumental amount of cheese. =) And I refuse to play anything that has levels of a spellcasting class. I'm against magic in DnD. It's something of a personal protest.
Exner 05-14-05, 09:40 PM	Same goes for Rokugan Ninja. It was more popular before Complete Adventurer, b/c it was the only Ninja available and it was free via PDF. But, again, you're a little out of data. That PDF has been errated — Ninjas get good Reflex Save, not Will. But yes, it's still strong, though most people bail after 4 levels. where is the PDF errata? is there any other fixes other then the saving throws?
Blade2718 05-14-05, 10:46 PM	How about this: Not as many attacks, but Iajutsu Ninja HumanParagon1 or OASamurai1/RokuganNinja4/Assassin8/IajutsuMaster2/DreadCommando5 Nymph's Kiss helps Skills and I.F. checks.Sadly, that just doesn't work like that. Nymph's Kiss is for Exalted characters only, while Assassin requires a non-good alignment. Human Paragon is from Unearthed Arcans -- pick any bunch of skills, plus one that is always in-class. 3/4 BAB, can't recall which good save. I'm not sure it's better than Able Learner + OA Samurai, unless you really are feat-challenged.Will saves are favored, and the latter option (AL + OA Samurai) will be the better out-of-combat option, as you can continue to build up your other skills.
PhaedrusXY 05-15-05, 01:36 AM	where is the PDF errata? is there any other fixes other then the saving throws?The version in the actual Rokugan book has Reflex as its good save, not Will. I don't remember any other changes off-hand (and don't feel like going through the tedium of actually comparing them right now ;) ).
Khazra Reborn 05-15-05, 05:27 AM	Iajutsu Ninja HumanParagon1 or OASamurai1/RokuganNinja4/Assassin8/IajutsuMaster2/DreadCommando5 If you cant take assasin & have nymphs kiss, slayer of domiel is a very similar exalted prestige class...
Exner 05-15-05, 10:34 AM	The version in the actual Rokugan book has Reflex as its good save, not Will. I don't remember any other changes off-hand (and don't feel like going through the tedium of actually comparing them right now ;) ). do you happen to recall if they added trapfinding to the class?
vomer 05-15-05, 12:46 PM	How about adding a level opf Psi Warrior, you get Psi Weapon and Greater Psi Weapon which add 2 or 4d6 to your first attack (not technically sneak attack damage, but if you are going for a one shot kill from the shadows it helps). Later on Dissolving Weapon adds another 4d6.
glutton 05-16-05, 02:12 AM	Theres a new feat called Craven in the champions of ruin book that came out, it's utterly ridiculous. It only requires sneak attack and not being immune to fear. It allows you to add your level to damage when you sneak attack, aka a blinking 15th level character WITH ONE LEVEL OF ROGUE could now add +15 damage to every attack they make that round. Man what is Wotc smoking down there?
lordsloth 05-16-05, 06:58 AM	Thats pretty cool :) Does this mean that the effect goes away if you are temporarily immune to fear? (lets say haging out with a paladin or under the effect of mind blank) I would assume that it does since susceptability to fear appears to be required in the mechanic to make it work. In that case it could be considered as balanced (well, not really, but closer to it) since characters with a high sneak attack progression (rogues and such) tend to have low will saves. A character with low sneak attack dice would still gain the benefit offcourse, but theyre probably not playing for sneak attacks anyway.
rilem 05-16-05, 10:09 AM	...characters with a high sneak attack progression (rogues and such) tend to have low will saves Not neccessarily. A riff off of one of MwaO's Daggerspell Warlocks: Rogue2/Fighter1/Warlock4/DaggerSpellMage8/ArcaneTrickster5 Sneak Attack +7d6 (I think) Base Will +14. Standard (core) Arcane Trickster: Rogue3/Wizard5/AT10/Archmage2 Sneak Attack +7d6 (noncore: +8d6 if you sub Daggerspell for Archmage) Base Will: +15 Given that both of these builds tend to rely on one big hit per round — chained Vitriolic Eldritch Blast + SA for the first; Arcane Fire + SA (and maybe a quickened Acid Splash + SA for the archmage — both would certainly benefit quite a bit from an extra +20 damage. Does Craven also impose a penalty to fear saves7? ADDENDUM: Here's one more: Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Assassin10/BayushiDeceiver4 Sneak Attack 9d6 Base Will: +9 Uses Keen Intellect (OA 3.5) to get Int. to Will Save instead of Wisdom. Given that Int. also goes to Damage, Initiative, Spells and Death Attack, that’s probably going to result in a pretty good Will save.