Best Solution for Claw Fighter Dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Solution for Claw Fighter Dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ck2001wendt
04-26-04, 09:34 AM A rules optimization question, which will lead to a build once completed.

1. I have an 18 HD, ECL 20 Claw Fighter. He has 2 claw attacks from the Feral template, but those are his only natural weapons.

2. Iterative attacks don't work for natural weapons, so at ECL 20 with 18 BAB his attack progression (no feats) is 18/18. Unacceptable.

3. In keeping with the spirt of the build, I do not want to resort to manufactured weapons of any kind.

4. TWF will not work, as neither weapon is manufactured.

5. Iterative attacks will not work, as stated above.

6. Multi-Attack will not work, as he only has 2 natural weapons.

7. Multi-Weapon Fighting (Savage Species) will not work, as he only has 2 hands (and MWF depends on manufactured weapons).

8. Rapid Strike (Draconomicon) MIGHT work. But it is restricted to the Aberration, Dragon, Elemental, and Magic Beast types. My Claw Fighter is currently a Monstrous Humanoid, and therefore does not qualify.

The Savage Species "Ritual of Association" allows you to take on a Type for no LA adjustment (and no change to abilities), but costs 56,000...8% of my equipment buy for lvl 20.

Thoughts? This seems like a hole in the rules to me. It seems rules were designed so that any character could get at least four attacks somehow through:

1. Iterative Attacks
2. Two Weapon Fighting or Multi-Weapon Fighting
3. Having lots of different natural attack forms.
4. Having one natural attack form with two attacks (2 claws, 2 slams).

Would you recommend going with the ritual? House-ruling Rapid Strike to include Monstrous Humanoids?
HoshiAdam
04-26-04, 10:16 AM I think that if you took Improved Unarmed Strike, you would be able to use your main hand claw to do iterative attacks, and have a secondary attack with your off hand claw at -5. This is based off the claw psionic powers though, and is probably wrong.

With Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, you would end up with 18/18/13/8/3. So for 2 feats you basically get to flurry with no penalties. Probably okay to houserule it to include Monstrous Humanoids.
Khazra
04-26-04, 11:43 AM . Multi-Attack will not work, as he only has 2 natural weapons
Im sure that it says that if you gain the feat without prequisites u get another attck @ -5 or is that only animal companions?
CompleteSatori
04-26-04, 03:00 PM Tsk Tsk Hoshi. Houseruling is BAD! Or at least a last resort.

To solve your problem within the Ruleset of 3.5, you could make your base race Elan (XPH) which is an Abberation type, but that would change to Monstrous Humanoid with Feral, which leaves you, again, screwed. The other and best alternative is to use a Ritual from Savage Species to change your type to Abberation (Elan) and gain yourself all of the Elan goodies at high level without losing everything from Feral.
Now someone is going to point out that Elan's usually start over from first level, but thats all flavor text indicating the level of change these people go through in order to start a new life as an Elan, and there isn't any good storyline reason that could not counteract that flavor text. And all for the price of 7000gp (Ritual of Unlearning).

Then take Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid strike for 4 iterative natural attacks. Fanged Ring + Improved Natural attack plus any good Druid size modifying spell is a good thing as well.

EDIT: Improved Rapid Strike would give you a full round attack chain like this:
Claw- +18
Claw- +18
Claw- +13
Claw- +8
Claw- +3
Claw- -2
As Improved Rapid Strike gives you multiple attacks with a set of natural weapons that you have 2 of, with diminishing returns similar to the TWF/ITWF/GTWF chain, and a maximum of 4 extra attacks. I would imagine there is an Epic version of these feats, such as Greater Rapidstrike which would grant you even more attacks, but I have yet to see it.
HoshiAdam
04-26-04, 04:48 PM Have I mentioned recently how much I dislike the Feral template?

But yes, houseruling should be avoided. Speaking of that, under the End Result section of the rituals section of savage species, I'm pretty sure you would lose the claws from the feral template if you changed to an Elan, since Elan doesn't have them naturally. However, it doesn't explicitly say that you lose the natural abilities, you just gain the natural abilities of the new form. You also keep your previous supernatural abilities, which is just kinda silly.

To get back to the claw fighter build, I would reccomend taking levels of psychic warrior and getting claws of the vampire and going to town with that and expansion. And houseruling rapidstrike to work. :)
catharz
04-26-04, 05:53 PM Don't Monks in 3.5 sub natural attacks for unarmed strike if they like?
horndgod
04-27-04, 01:38 AM I was under the impression that if you have natural attacks and an attack routine, you can choose to fight iteratively, but lose the benefit of the attack routine. Essentially, you're carrying a primary and secondary weapon (in the case of pairs of claws, at least.) You can attack with your other natural attacks after iterating through your primary weapon, but they are counted as two weapon or multi weapon fighting, garnering the appropriate penalties.
MoogleEmpMog
04-27-04, 02:32 AM If you could redo your levels, you could take 11 levels in Flurry of Blows granting classes and gain an attack routine of +18/+18/+18/+18 with your claws (using Flurry of Blows).

Other than that, the ritual/rapid strike route would work.
ck2001wendt
04-27-04, 07:44 AM See, I've been looking at threads around the boards, and I've been led to believe that unarmed attacks from a Monk are considered manufactured weapons." The monk description in PHB was silent on the issue.

I think I'm going the Ritual of Association/Rapid Strike route. Elan in the XPH are Aberrations, and Dragons are of course Dragons. It's a little expensive, but there should be no drawbacks besides the +5 DC to Disguise.

The build itself, and the wider project I'm thinking about, will probably happen once I complete quals in a couple of weeks.

Thanks all for your comments.
CompleteSatori
04-27-04, 07:55 AM The DC for disguise to fool everyone that you are still the guy they knew? If its that much of a role play problem, have it have already happened before you became a member of the party, and only use that disguise for old family, or just be upfront about it and say that you were terribly injured in combat and the process of magical healing exacted a price, and that was a change of body. (a lie works well if its close to the truth enough!).
ck2001wendt
04-27-04, 08:01 AM The +5 Disguise DC is actually because you obtain some sort of characteristc of the Type you're acquiring, like pebbly skin or some other such, which I suppose makes it harder to Disguise yourself. No bonuses or penalties from the new characteristic, just the +5 DC.
HoshiAdam
04-27-04, 09:31 AM Ritual of Association won't work, since Abberation isn't a racial subtype or type modifier.
CompleteSatori
04-27-04, 10:00 AM Originally posted by ck2001wendt
The +5 Disguise DC is actually because you obtain some sort of characteristc of the Type you're acquiring, like pebbly skin or some other such, which I suppose makes it harder to Disguise yourself. No bonuses or penalties from the new characteristic, just the +5 DC.

In the case of the Elan, it appears to be totally human, is intended to look that way actually. You just will not have the perfect appearance of yourself after the ritual, in fact usually a body type and characteristics are assigned to you at the whim of the casters, to conform with whatever is 'in style' within the subculture of the Elan.

And I think Ritual of Unlearning will work, though you are correct, Association will not.
ck2001wendt
04-27-04, 11:16 AM Will Dragon work, however?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ck2001wendt 04-26-04, 09:34 AM	A rules optimization question, which will lead to a build once completed. 1. I have an 18 HD, ECL 20 Claw Fighter. He has 2 claw attacks from the Feral template, but those are his only natural weapons. 2. Iterative attacks don't work for natural weapons, so at ECL 20 with 18 BAB his attack progression (no feats) is 18/18. Unacceptable. 3. In keeping with the spirt of the build, I do not want to resort to manufactured weapons of any kind. 4. TWF will not work, as neither weapon is manufactured. 5. Iterative attacks will not work, as stated above. 6. Multi-Attack will not work, as he only has 2 natural weapons. 7. Multi-Weapon Fighting (Savage Species) will not work, as he only has 2 hands (and MWF depends on manufactured weapons). 8. Rapid Strike (Draconomicon) MIGHT work. But it is restricted to the Aberration, Dragon, Elemental, and Magic Beast types. My Claw Fighter is currently a Monstrous Humanoid, and therefore does not qualify. The Savage Species "Ritual of Association" allows you to take on a Type for no LA adjustment (and no change to abilities), but costs 56,000...8% of my equipment buy for lvl 20. Thoughts? This seems like a hole in the rules to me. It seems rules were designed so that any character could get at least four attacks somehow through: 1. Iterative Attacks 2. Two Weapon Fighting or Multi-Weapon Fighting 3. Having lots of different natural attack forms. 4. Having one natural attack form with two attacks (2 claws, 2 slams). Would you recommend going with the ritual? House-ruling Rapid Strike to include Monstrous Humanoids?
HoshiAdam 04-26-04, 10:16 AM	I think that if you took Improved Unarmed Strike, you would be able to use your main hand claw to do iterative attacks, and have a secondary attack with your off hand claw at -5. This is based off the claw psionic powers though, and is probably wrong. With Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, you would end up with 18/18/13/8/3. So for 2 feats you basically get to flurry with no penalties. Probably okay to houserule it to include Monstrous Humanoids.
Khazra 04-26-04, 11:43 AM	. Multi-Attack will not work, as he only has 2 natural weapons Im sure that it says that if you gain the feat without prequisites u get another attck @ -5 or is that only animal companions?
CompleteSatori 04-26-04, 03:00 PM	Tsk Tsk Hoshi. Houseruling is BAD! Or at least a last resort. To solve your problem within the Ruleset of 3.5, you could make your base race Elan (XPH) which is an Abberation type, but that would change to Monstrous Humanoid with Feral, which leaves you, again, screwed. The other and best alternative is to use a Ritual from Savage Species to change your type to Abberation (Elan) and gain yourself all of the Elan goodies at high level without losing everything from Feral. Now someone is going to point out that Elan's usually start over from first level, but thats all flavor text indicating the level of change these people go through in order to start a new life as an Elan, and there isn't any good storyline reason that could not counteract that flavor text. And all for the price of 7000gp (Ritual of Unlearning). Then take Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid strike for 4 iterative natural attacks. Fanged Ring + Improved Natural attack plus any good Druid size modifying spell is a good thing as well. EDIT: Improved Rapid Strike would give you a full round attack chain like this: Claw- +18 Claw- +18 Claw- +13 Claw- +8 Claw- +3 Claw- -2 As Improved Rapid Strike gives you multiple attacks with a set of natural weapons that you have 2 of, with diminishing returns similar to the TWF/ITWF/GTWF chain, and a maximum of 4 extra attacks. I would imagine there is an Epic version of these feats, such as Greater Rapidstrike which would grant you even more attacks, but I have yet to see it.
HoshiAdam 04-26-04, 04:48 PM	Have I mentioned recently how much I dislike the Feral template? But yes, houseruling should be avoided. Speaking of that, under the End Result section of the rituals section of savage species, I'm pretty sure you would lose the claws from the feral template if you changed to an Elan, since Elan doesn't have them naturally. However, it doesn't explicitly say that you lose the natural abilities, you just gain the natural abilities of the new form. You also keep your previous supernatural abilities, which is just kinda silly. To get back to the claw fighter build, I would reccomend taking levels of psychic warrior and getting claws of the vampire and going to town with that and expansion. And houseruling rapidstrike to work. :)
catharz 04-26-04, 05:53 PM	Don't Monks in 3.5 sub natural attacks for unarmed strike if they like?
horndgod 04-27-04, 01:38 AM	I was under the impression that if you have natural attacks and an attack routine, you can choose to fight iteratively, but lose the benefit of the attack routine. Essentially, you're carrying a primary and secondary weapon (in the case of pairs of claws, at least.) You can attack with your other natural attacks after iterating through your primary weapon, but they are counted as two weapon or multi weapon fighting, garnering the appropriate penalties.
MoogleEmpMog 04-27-04, 02:32 AM	If you could redo your levels, you could take 11 levels in Flurry of Blows granting classes and gain an attack routine of +18/+18/+18/+18 with your claws (using Flurry of Blows). Other than that, the ritual/rapid strike route would work.
ck2001wendt 04-27-04, 07:44 AM	See, I've been looking at threads around the boards, and I've been led to believe that unarmed attacks from a Monk are considered manufactured weapons." The monk description in PHB was silent on the issue. I think I'm going the Ritual of Association/Rapid Strike route. Elan in the XPH are Aberrations, and Dragons are of course Dragons. It's a little expensive, but there should be no drawbacks besides the +5 DC to Disguise. The build itself, and the wider project I'm thinking about, will probably happen once I complete quals in a couple of weeks. Thanks all for your comments.
CompleteSatori 04-27-04, 07:55 AM	The DC for disguise to fool everyone that you are still the guy they knew? If its that much of a role play problem, have it have already happened before you became a member of the party, and only use that disguise for old family, or just be upfront about it and say that you were terribly injured in combat and the process of magical healing exacted a price, and that was a change of body. (a lie works well if its close to the truth enough!).
ck2001wendt 04-27-04, 08:01 AM	The +5 Disguise DC is actually because you obtain some sort of characteristc of the Type you're acquiring, like pebbly skin or some other such, which I suppose makes it harder to Disguise yourself. No bonuses or penalties from the new characteristic, just the +5 DC.
HoshiAdam 04-27-04, 09:31 AM	Ritual of Association won't work, since Abberation isn't a racial subtype or type modifier.
CompleteSatori 04-27-04, 10:00 AM	Originally posted by ck2001wendt The +5 Disguise DC is actually because you obtain some sort of characteristc of the Type you're acquiring, like pebbly skin or some other such, which I suppose makes it harder to Disguise yourself. No bonuses or penalties from the new characteristic, just the +5 DC. In the case of the Elan, it appears to be totally human, is intended to look that way actually. You just will not have the perfect appearance of yourself after the ritual, in fact usually a body type and characteristics are assigned to you at the whim of the casters, to conform with whatever is 'in style' within the subculture of the Elan. And I think Ritual of Unlearning will work, though you are correct, Association will not.
ck2001wendt 04-27-04, 11:16 AM	Will Dragon work, however?