Best Spell for Save or Die? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Spell for Save or Die? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
parkse
02-28-06, 01:15 AM Alright, here's the deal...after several days of getting advice from these, and other boards...I've got the 1-20 build for my Necro. I know its COMPLETELY Optimized, but this is for an actual character, and all my DM will allow (which is actually quite a bit. Here's the build, and then on to the question. It is a Gestalt character, and he's letting me gestalt two PrC's at a time, as well as a class that gets two things, whne they shouldn't (you'll see what I mean.)
The reason for the extra lvls of DN, is because its actually a 1-30 build in progress, and I plan on being lvl 20 DN at lvl 27, to be lich for free (there are campaign reasons for going this route.)

DN 13
Cleric 8
FateSpinner 5
True Necro 14

This gives me 20 spell progressions for arcane, and divine. Here's the kicker, and the reason for the post as a question. All the feats I'm taking add to my DC's in one way or another so with all class abilities, and feats, I'm getting a +31 to my DC, BEFORE adding in ability score. This is using the Fatespinner's ability to cause someone to take -10 to their next save, and will make them reroll it if they somehow, by some unholy luck, make that save. My question is, what's the best high lvl spell to use for such an encounter? This would obviously be for the BBEG for at least the day...like the dungeons boss or something.
Malakai_Demonos
02-28-06, 01:58 AM Any actual save or die spell is nice. (slay living, destruction, finger of death) but domination could be cool; when the campaign is over, control the last boss and send him on your trusting frieds, now thats evil. Or maybe a paralysis spell, save em' for later. But these are probably obvious. ALso that high spell dc is nice for control undead.

Also if you do not mind, can you map out and explain how you are getting your save dc +31 before your atribute score, just curious.
Oogar
02-28-06, 08:54 AM Hmmm, I think the problem is that many save or 'die' spells come with immunities of one sort or another. Shapeshifters laught at Polymorph (Baleful or Any Object). Undead bad guys and some spells will stop death effect spells, like slay living....

How about Implosion and Imprisonment?

Implosion will wreck up to 4 critters and has range - Fort save.

Imprisionment is good for a critter that doesn't use any of it's loot - Will save.
hovnarr
02-28-06, 09:19 AM Oogar is right - all save or dies have some sort of disclaimer. The best IMHO is actually the psionic Ectoplasmic Cocoon (Mass) since they are size-dependent (and augment to accommodate this) and can only be escaped by outside force or purely mental action effects such as Psionic Dimension Door. Sort of like Force cage and hold person rolled into a powerful whole.

Anyhow, if you're a necro, why not consider THE save-or-die that is so much more than a save-or-die: Magic Jar.

It's a will save. It is not [mind-affecting]. And it affects all living creatures. And most importantly, instead of simply killing the target you can use his body as expendable HP against his foes, for reconaissance or anything else.

It IS tricky to pull off though. You'll need a Rope Trick spell, preferably a flying familiar and even more preferably Eschew Components + Still + Silent spell. Basically, it works like this:

*Rope Trick, climb to safety with your familiar. Prepare a special pouch with the Jar, attach it to the familiar and cast Magic Jar. Leave your comatose body in the rope trick and venture out into the world. Use a shared Invisibility of Greater Invisibility to be completely unnoticed. Use shared Polymorph to be something else than your current form. When you find a suitable target, attack it, use it as fodder while casting more save-or-dies, return to your familiar's pouch and attack someone else. Wash rince repeat.

If you don't like this, Implosion, Dominate Monster and Polymorph Any Object cover each others weaknesses fairly well. Sunburst has its uses too, though it's situational.
parkse
02-28-06, 02:10 PM How did I get the +31? Well then :D

We'll start off with class abilities.
True Necro gives +4 in regards to necromatic spells (and sinse those are the only spells I have acces to as a DN (I think)
Fatespinner gives me +5 pts of "spin"
Fatespinner allows me to make the person roll with a -10 to their save 1/day
Mother Cysts, use Necrotic cyst, which then gives the person a -2 vs. necro
Shadow Weave Magic +2
Spell Focus (necro) +1
Greater Focus (necro) +1
3rd party feat, Specialized Focus(necro) +2
Malign Focus +2
3rd party feat, Empowered Blood: deal 3 hp dmg to self, get +2

for a total of +31 :D
PhaedrusXY
02-28-06, 02:24 PM Flesh to Stone. If you need it to be Necromancy and Evil, you'll have to figure that out yourself. But I think it is the best "save or die", because it works on just about everything, it is very difficult to get immunity, and there aren't certain kinds of creatures that can just shapeshift out of it.
parkse
02-28-06, 02:46 PM Flesh to Stone is definately a good spell, unfortunately I have a limited spell list, mostly Necro/Evil spells, which works well with the feats I've taken. I'm mostly looking at the Cyst spells...mainly Necrotic Dominate, I think with my DC's it should be fairly easy. Anyone else have comments on the subject?
Quenditar
02-28-06, 03:15 PM Are there any save-or-dies not subject to spell resistance?
AramilWindwalker
02-28-06, 03:37 PM this is more of a save or get pwnd spell, but disintigrate is useful for those low fort save undead foes.
hovnarr
02-28-06, 05:34 PM Are there any save-or-dies not subject to spell resistance?

Once again, Ectoplasmic cocoon FTW!
Kuroi Kenshi
02-28-06, 06:49 PM I recall Curse of the Putrid Husk from the book of vile deeds as being a particuarly nasty spell, and it's an [evil] spell I think...I don't know too much else about it, though.
parkse
02-28-06, 08:27 PM Alright, I'm going to try to compile a list, of the best Save or Die's vs certain things like:

VS Mages (low fort)
Necrotic Burst (Fort Partial) Sorc/Wiz 5, Cleric 5
Necrotic Eruption (Fort Partial) Sorc/Wiz 6, Cleric 6
Flesh to Stone (Fort Negates) Sorc/Wiz 6
Necrotic Tumor (Fort Partial) Sorc/Wiz 7, Cleric 7
Wail of the Banshee (Fort Negates) Sorc/Wiz 9, Death 9
VS BarB (low will)
Necrotic Domination (Will negates) Sorc/Wiz 4, Cleric 4

VS immune to ability drain

VS immune to said element

VS immune to death magic

I'll try to keep things updated as the suggestions roll in. Whenever you post a suggested Save or Die, please put the relevant save, and whether its a touch/ranged touch or whatever. Thanks.
TonyStark
02-28-06, 08:33 PM well, for clearing a field real fast is a fav of mine - wail of the banchee. it is necromantic and multi targeted save or die.
downside, doesnt kill undead or constructs, you can't have it all ;)

Wail of the banchee
necromancy [death,sonic]
death9, wiz/sorc9
*components : V
range : close 25ft + 5ft / 2 levels
area : one living creature / level w/i 40ft-radius spread
save : fort neg
SR : yes
parkse
02-28-06, 08:40 PM nice one, also everyone plesae put what source the spell is from as well.
parkse
02-28-06, 08:56 PM I think I'm gonna go ahead and move this under a more focused title, and thread, to where its at top.
Kresalak
02-28-06, 09:02 PM I recall Curse of the Putrid Husk from the book of vile deeds as being a particuarly nasty spell, and it's an [evil] spell I think...I don't know too much else about it, though.
I believe that Curse only paralyzes, but then again, that's as good as death. Sadly, I lent my BoVD to someone, so I cannot check it.

Forcecage is an excellent no save and die spell. It's best use is to Cage someone, buff your entire party, and have every take redied actions to smack the enemy up when you dismiss the spell- and it is dismissable. It even lasts 2 hours/level, so if needed you can rest up before starting the murder.
parkse
02-28-06, 10:06 PM I don't know if I'd call that Save or Die though. That seems to just give more time to prepare, whereas a save or die is just that. Save, or your dead (either through not being alble to act, or straight up) whereas that's, save, and be trapped for a bit while we prepare.
diphycue
02-28-06, 10:14 PM I believe that Curse only paralyzes, but then again, that's as good as death. Sadly, I lent my BoVD to someone, so I cannot check it.

Forcecage is an excellent no save and die spell. It's best use is to Cage someone, buff your entire party, and have every take redied actions to smack the enemy up when you dismiss the spell- and it is dismissable. It even lasts 2 hours/level, so if needed you can rest up before starting the murder.

That's great...the guy trapped in a force box watching the enemies sleep for 8 hours, waking up, having breakfast, getting armored, buffing, and then standing around weapons raised...geez, talk about torture.
Boondoggle
02-28-06, 11:23 PM Only one other person has mentioned disintegrate? The only things it can't affect are golems with magic immunity. It destroys the body (which is cool) but doesn't touch the stuff (which is cooler). It's not necromatic, so it affects things like constructs & undead. In fact, it completely pwns other liches.

If you're going epic, improved metamagic (whatever feat reduces lvl cost by 1) & twin-spell make this spell twice as yummy.
parkse
03-01-06, 12:55 AM I agree that Disintegrate is an awesome spell, BUT if you roll crappy, or there's enough hp, its not save or die. I'll add it to the list though (BTW, the list has been given its own post, under Best Situational Save or Die)
HCCommander
03-01-06, 01:12 AM I really like Final Judgement, but I fear that's not possible for your build.
:angelhide
tiejaz
03-01-06, 01:23 AM How are you getting Dread Necromancer beyond 8th level? Everyone knows the class only lasts eight levels. 9 and on are urban legends, told by evil parents to their children, to make the children wet themselves.

..

And concerning the term BBEG, you are the BBEG. DN/TN = BBEG.
parkse
03-01-06, 02:05 AM LOL, yeah, I heard about that...guess I got a misprinted book or somethin :S Odd.

Lol...yeah, I guess I kinda am the BBEG....but they don't know it....YET :D MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

I just gotta figure out how to have bass with lasers...in a medival fantasy society....hmm....
parkse
03-01-06, 02:09 AM What book is Final Judgement?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
parkse 02-28-06, 01:15 AM	Alright, here's the deal...after several days of getting advice from these, and other boards...I've got the 1-20 build for my Necro. I know its COMPLETELY Optimized, but this is for an actual character, and all my DM will allow (which is actually quite a bit. Here's the build, and then on to the question. It is a Gestalt character, and he's letting me gestalt two PrC's at a time, as well as a class that gets two things, whne they shouldn't (you'll see what I mean.) The reason for the extra lvls of DN, is because its actually a 1-30 build in progress, and I plan on being lvl 20 DN at lvl 27, to be lich for free (there are campaign reasons for going this route.) DN 13 Cleric 8 FateSpinner 5 True Necro 14 This gives me 20 spell progressions for arcane, and divine. Here's the kicker, and the reason for the post as a question. All the feats I'm taking add to my DC's in one way or another so with all class abilities, and feats, I'm getting a +31 to my DC, BEFORE adding in ability score. This is using the Fatespinner's ability to cause someone to take -10 to their next save, and will make them reroll it if they somehow, by some unholy luck, make that save. My question is, what's the best high lvl spell to use for such an encounter? This would obviously be for the BBEG for at least the day...like the dungeons boss or something.
Malakai_Demonos 02-28-06, 01:58 AM	Any actual save or die spell is nice. (slay living, destruction, finger of death) but domination could be cool; when the campaign is over, control the last boss and send him on your trusting frieds, now thats evil. Or maybe a paralysis spell, save em' for later. But these are probably obvious. ALso that high spell dc is nice for control undead. Also if you do not mind, can you map out and explain how you are getting your save dc +31 before your atribute score, just curious.
Oogar 02-28-06, 08:54 AM	Hmmm, I think the problem is that many save or 'die' spells come with immunities of one sort or another. Shapeshifters laught at Polymorph (Baleful or Any Object). Undead bad guys and some spells will stop death effect spells, like slay living.... How about Implosion and Imprisonment? Implosion will wreck up to 4 critters and has range - Fort save. Imprisionment is good for a critter that doesn't use any of it's loot - Will save.
hovnarr 02-28-06, 09:19 AM	Oogar is right - all save or dies have some sort of disclaimer. The best IMHO is actually the psionic Ectoplasmic Cocoon (Mass) since they are size-dependent (and augment to accommodate this) and can only be escaped by outside force or purely mental action effects such as Psionic Dimension Door. Sort of like Force cage and hold person rolled into a powerful whole. Anyhow, if you're a necro, why not consider THE save-or-die that is so much more than a save-or-die: Magic Jar. It's a will save. It is not [mind-affecting]. And it affects all living creatures. And most importantly, instead of simply killing the target you can use his body as expendable HP against his foes, for reconaissance or anything else. It IS tricky to pull off though. You'll need a Rope Trick spell, preferably a flying familiar and even more preferably Eschew Components + Still + Silent spell. Basically, it works like this: *Rope Trick, climb to safety with your familiar. Prepare a special pouch with the Jar, attach it to the familiar and cast Magic Jar. Leave your comatose body in the rope trick and venture out into the world. Use a shared Invisibility of Greater Invisibility to be completely unnoticed. Use shared Polymorph to be something else than your current form. When you find a suitable target, attack it, use it as fodder while casting more save-or-dies, return to your familiar's pouch and attack someone else. Wash rince repeat. If you don't like this, Implosion, Dominate Monster and Polymorph Any Object cover each others weaknesses fairly well. Sunburst has its uses too, though it's situational.
parkse 02-28-06, 02:10 PM	How did I get the +31? Well then :D We'll start off with class abilities. True Necro gives +4 in regards to necromatic spells (and sinse those are the only spells I have acces to as a DN (I think) Fatespinner gives me +5 pts of "spin" Fatespinner allows me to make the person roll with a -10 to their save 1/day Mother Cysts, use Necrotic cyst, which then gives the person a -2 vs. necro Shadow Weave Magic +2 Spell Focus (necro) +1 Greater Focus (necro) +1 3rd party feat, Specialized Focus(necro) +2 Malign Focus +2 3rd party feat, Empowered Blood: deal 3 hp dmg to self, get +2 for a total of +31 :D
PhaedrusXY 02-28-06, 02:24 PM	Flesh to Stone. If you need it to be Necromancy and Evil, you'll have to figure that out yourself. But I think it is the best "save or die", because it works on just about everything, it is very difficult to get immunity, and there aren't certain kinds of creatures that can just shapeshift out of it.
parkse 02-28-06, 02:46 PM	Flesh to Stone is definately a good spell, unfortunately I have a limited spell list, mostly Necro/Evil spells, which works well with the feats I've taken. I'm mostly looking at the Cyst spells...mainly Necrotic Dominate, I think with my DC's it should be fairly easy. Anyone else have comments on the subject?
Quenditar 02-28-06, 03:15 PM	Are there any save-or-dies not subject to spell resistance?
AramilWindwalker 02-28-06, 03:37 PM	this is more of a save or get pwnd spell, but disintigrate is useful for those low fort save undead foes.
hovnarr 02-28-06, 05:34 PM	Are there any save-or-dies not subject to spell resistance? Once again, Ectoplasmic cocoon FTW!
Kuroi Kenshi 02-28-06, 06:49 PM	I recall Curse of the Putrid Husk from the book of vile deeds as being a particuarly nasty spell, and it's an [evil] spell I think...I don't know too much else about it, though.
parkse 02-28-06, 08:27 PM	Alright, I'm going to try to compile a list, of the best Save or Die's vs certain things like: VS Mages (low fort) Necrotic Burst (Fort Partial) Sorc/Wiz 5, Cleric 5 Necrotic Eruption (Fort Partial) Sorc/Wiz 6, Cleric 6 Flesh to Stone (Fort Negates) Sorc/Wiz 6 Necrotic Tumor (Fort Partial) Sorc/Wiz 7, Cleric 7 Wail of the Banshee (Fort Negates) Sorc/Wiz 9, Death 9 VS BarB (low will) Necrotic Domination (Will negates) Sorc/Wiz 4, Cleric 4 VS immune to ability drain VS immune to said element VS immune to death magic I'll try to keep things updated as the suggestions roll in. Whenever you post a suggested Save or Die, please put the relevant save, and whether its a touch/ranged touch or whatever. Thanks.
TonyStark 02-28-06, 08:33 PM	well, for clearing a field real fast is a fav of mine - wail of the banchee. it is necromantic and multi targeted save or die. downside, doesnt kill undead or constructs, you can't have it all ;) Wail of the banchee necromancy [death,sonic] death9, wiz/sorc9 *components : V range : close 25ft + 5ft / 2 levels area : one living creature / level w/i 40ft-radius spread save : fort neg SR : yes
parkse 02-28-06, 08:40 PM	nice one, also everyone plesae put what source the spell is from as well.
parkse 02-28-06, 08:56 PM	I think I'm gonna go ahead and move this under a more focused title, and thread, to where its at top.
Kresalak 02-28-06, 09:02 PM	I recall Curse of the Putrid Husk from the book of vile deeds as being a particuarly nasty spell, and it's an [evil] spell I think...I don't know too much else about it, though. I believe that Curse only paralyzes, but then again, that's as good as death. Sadly, I lent my BoVD to someone, so I cannot check it. Forcecage is an excellent no save and die spell. It's best use is to Cage someone, buff your entire party, and have every take redied actions to smack the enemy up when you dismiss the spell- and it is dismissable. It even lasts 2 hours/level, so if needed you can rest up before starting the murder.
parkse 02-28-06, 10:06 PM	I don't know if I'd call that Save or Die though. That seems to just give more time to prepare, whereas a save or die is just that. Save, or your dead (either through not being alble to act, or straight up) whereas that's, save, and be trapped for a bit while we prepare.
diphycue 02-28-06, 10:14 PM	I believe that Curse only paralyzes, but then again, that's as good as death. Sadly, I lent my BoVD to someone, so I cannot check it. Forcecage is an excellent no save and die spell. It's best use is to Cage someone, buff your entire party, and have every take redied actions to smack the enemy up when you dismiss the spell- and it is dismissable. It even lasts 2 hours/level, so if needed you can rest up before starting the murder. That's great...the guy trapped in a force box watching the enemies sleep for 8 hours, waking up, having breakfast, getting armored, buffing, and then standing around weapons raised...geez, talk about torture.
Boondoggle 02-28-06, 11:23 PM	Only one other person has mentioned disintegrate? The only things it can't affect are golems with magic immunity. It destroys the body (which is cool) but doesn't touch the stuff (which is cooler). It's not necromatic, so it affects things like constructs & undead. In fact, it completely pwns other liches. If you're going epic, improved metamagic (whatever feat reduces lvl cost by 1) & twin-spell make this spell twice as yummy.
parkse 03-01-06, 12:55 AM	I agree that Disintegrate is an awesome spell, BUT if you roll crappy, or there's enough hp, its not save or die. I'll add it to the list though (BTW, the list has been given its own post, under Best Situational Save or Die)
HCCommander 03-01-06, 01:12 AM	I really like Final Judgement, but I fear that's not possible for your build. :angelhide
tiejaz 03-01-06, 01:23 AM	How are you getting Dread Necromancer beyond 8th level? Everyone knows the class only lasts eight levels. 9 and on are urban legends, told by evil parents to their children, to make the children wet themselves. .. And concerning the term BBEG, you are the BBEG. DN/TN = BBEG.
parkse 03-01-06, 02:05 AM	LOL, yeah, I heard about that...guess I got a misprinted book or somethin :S Odd. Lol...yeah, I guess I kinda am the BBEG....but they don't know it....YET :D MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! I just gotta figure out how to have bass with lasers...in a medival fantasy society....hmm....
parkse 03-01-06, 02:09 AM	What book is Final Judgement?