best spellcasting-class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

best spellcasting-class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ho-Hunter
10-14-06, 02:14 PM hi!

i am not too experienced with spellcasters and want to play one the next capaign.

what do you think is the overall best spellcasting class?
i am thinking of versatility, spellprogression, offense, defense, buffin,.....! including all sorts of spells, like psi,...

how about the wu jen in a non-oa setting?

please let me know, what the pros and cons of the classes are.
we wont be allowed to choose more than one prc.

thanks for your help!
McBAMF
10-14-06, 02:56 PM I'd go for wizard for versatility. IMO probably the "best" spellcaster.

P.S. This question is a very arbitrary and opinionated question.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
10-14-06, 03:03 PM Cleric and Druid have time and again proven their usefulness and versatility. They are good spellcasters at all levels, they can both heal, thus helping both yourself and your party. They can wear armor and use shields and hold their own in regular combat.

Most definitely optimizer's pics to your question in general. :)
Phoenix00
10-14-06, 03:06 PM Core: Druid because you can wildshape and still have a great spell list.

Cleric with access to Complete Divine.

Archivist and Artificer can be completely broken if you know how to play one, but these two builds are not Core+Complete.
Lord_of_Omnipotence
10-14-06, 06:43 PM I'd definately have to go with Archivist, simply because this class gets basically every spell in the game, and can cast more frequently than wizards, as well as reap the benefits of more hit dice, armor, and a couple of nifty class features.
Avanter
10-15-06, 06:57 AM Archivist. They get all those great spells as early as possible as well... there are some nifty 4th level paladin and ranger only spells, that they have to wait until level 14 to get. The Archivist gets them in half the time. Other than that, I would have to go with Druid, then Cleric, then Wizard.
X-Codes
10-15-06, 07:05 AM Archivist. They get all those great spells as early as possible as well... there are some nifty 4th level paladin and ranger only spells, that they have to wait until level 14 to get. The Archivist gets them in half the time. Other than that, I would have to go with Druid, then Cleric, then Wizard.
Actually, Archivists get level 4 Paladin spells in less than 1/4 the XP it takes for a Paladin to get level 4 Paladin spells.

Honestly I find that mildly disturbing.
FiestFan
10-15-06, 09:05 AM Including Psionics, I'd think Erudite deserves some consideration.

Overall, I'll agree that Archivist has an edge from a pure 'spell-casting' perspective.

The best 'Class' that also casts spells is Druid.
Lord_of_Omnipotence
10-15-06, 02:16 PM I'd say Archivist beats Erudite, simply because there's so much more material for spellcasters than for psions. Even though both the Erudite and the Archivist have the potential to learn basically anything from their respective disciplines, the fact that Archivists have about 20 times the material to draw on puts them on a higher tier than their psionic counterpart.
Avanter
10-15-06, 03:18 PM Actually, Archivists get level 4 Paladin spells in less than 1/4 the XP it takes for a Paladin to get level 4 Paladin spells.

Honestly I find that mildly disturbing.

hey, you're right, I was thinking level 7 to level 14...I didnt even think of actual XP.
deathwishjoe
10-15-06, 03:30 PM the best spell casting class is actually a PrC thats rather difficult to get into but in 10 levels it has 9th level spell casting spontaneous spellcasting from a spell book. so its like the best of both worlds from sorcerer and wizard. and it uses the generally superior arcane casting spell list.

its the beholder mage. you have to use LoPs #1 dirty trick to enter it with a normal character but never the less a power spell casting class that I feel beats out even the archivist.
Hanniball
10-15-06, 04:10 PM what do you think is the overall best spellcasting class?

Personally, I think this is a far too arbitrary question to warrant a definitive response. In specific situations, one spellcasting class will outshine any other, but fall behind in other situations.

So, the answer to your question is: It depends on what you are trying to do.
FriendlyFrog
10-15-06, 05:51 PM the best spell casting class is actually a PrC thats rather difficult to get into but in 10 levels it has 9th level spell casting spontaneous spellcasting from a spell book. so its like the best of both worlds from sorcerer and wizard. and it uses the generally superior arcane casting spell list.
You forgot to mention that they don't need any material components, that they cast their spells as free actions and that they an cast a single spell of every level within one round. That PrC is crazy, I wish I could play a Beholder just once...
EyeontheMountain
10-15-06, 06:18 PM For jsut straight casting, I would say Cleric. They can heal, buff, get rid of bad conditions, and do jsut about everything else.

Not as great of a blaster as mage, but close, exspecially at the high levels

Unfortunately they have few good prestige clases out there that do not cause a los of spellcasting ability.
the_fenris_wolf
10-15-06, 09:02 PM I just cant pass up a druid, possible the best core class EVA.
kyutip
10-15-06, 10:38 PM where can the Archavist be found?
Lord_of_Omnipotence
10-15-06, 10:40 PM The Archivist can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3
kyutip
10-16-06, 12:00 AM thanks, found it. and what is it that makes this class so broken? what am i missing?
pad300
10-16-06, 12:31 AM As a note of interest - I will say that the Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine) has just about the best casting mechanism. (variable spontaneous casting from an entire core class list...) . They also have some pretty good abilities. The only downside is that as a expansion book class, they have recieved very little PRC support.
Timespike
10-16-06, 12:38 AM thanks, found it. and what is it that makes this class so broken? what am i missing?

You can potentially cast ANY divine spell in the entire game, even ones that only show up on prestige class lists. If you can grab spells from the shugenja list, for instance, you can cast fireball as a level 4 divine spell. If you get access to paladin spellcasting, you can learn divine sacrifice. And so on.
kyutip
10-16-06, 12:53 AM ok but even with that being said you have to find the spells. how often have you come across non-cleric spells on scrolls in your adventuring experience? and as for esoteric sources what that says to me is that the only spells that you are learning are the ones the dm decides to make available for you. and, of course, theres the fun of keeping your spellbook or rather "prayer book" intact and in your posession. which brings us to your stats. bonus spells are determined by your wisdom, your actual casting is based off of int and alot of divine spells work better with a good charisma. so again maybe im not seeing the big picture. i think its a cool and pretty strong class but im not seeing how it can be so broken. just my 2 cents.:confused:
Lord_of_Omnipotence
10-16-06, 01:38 AM You can buy said scrolls in shops the same way you buy any magic items. And as for mad, you don't need to worry too much. You get more spells than a wizard anyway, so your wis doesn't need to be extraordinary.

The reason they're broken is they can get basically any spell in the game, as cleric domains have some great utility spells, and classes like shugenja can cast all sorts of divine spells that are usually exclusive to a single class. They can get spells like fireball, magic missile, teleport, dominate person, basically anything any spellcaster could ever want.
kaiza
10-16-06, 01:41 AM That's the "potential" part. Here at the CO Boards a class is assessed by its mechanics, not by its actual value in your (or my) game.

k.
FriendlyFrog
10-16-06, 05:48 AM When making magic items, you don't have to cast the spell yourself. Archivists also get Scribe scroll for free. So you just pay an NPC to cast the spell you want, make a scroll of it, and then copy it to your book.
ShubNiggurath
10-16-06, 08:29 AM Druid

The answer to all the questions that start by "What is the best" is druid.
Or cleric with DMM(persistent)
Lo77o
10-16-06, 01:15 PM I should smack you all over your heads... only one of you mentioned artificers, and none of you made a point out af saying its the BEST caster in the game "alongside the best everything else in the game".

And dont give me that whole "they dont CAST spells, they MAKE magic items", becourse thats just semantics.

And with it you dont need special dm permissíon to make a scroll of any and all spells you will ever need/want, or wands or any other items thats allready listed within the rules.
MegaPlex
10-16-06, 02:45 PM ok but even with that being said you have to find the spells. how often have you come across non-cleric spells on scrolls in your adventuring experience?

Take a look here at the Adept spells list -- a core class from the DMG that casts divine spells:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm

1st level: Burning Hands
2nd level: Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Web
3rd level: Lightning Bolt
4th level: Polymorph, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire
5th level: Baleful Polymorph

Here is a list of all Divine casters with spell lists:
Adapt
Apostle of Peace
Beloved of Valarian
Blackguard
Blighter
Cleric
Druid
Emissary of Barachiel
Ghampion of Gwynharwyf
Hunter of the Dead
Knight of the Chalice
Paladin
Ranger
Shugenja
Vassal of Bahamut

In addition to all the domain spells out there. There are also some prestige classes you can get into that normaly only druid/ranger classes can qualify for.

And remember Divine spells don't have Arcane Spell Failure chance, so spending a feat (or take a PrC) for Heavy Armor is a good idea. Cast that Lightning Bolt in full plate + shield!
Lord_of_Omnipotence
10-16-06, 07:06 PM That's the "potential" part. Here at the CO Boards a class is assessed by its mechanics, not by its actual value in your (or my) game.

k.

It's not exactly considered "potential". Not allowing an archivist to buy scrolls is like not allowing a cleric to buy a holy symbol, or not allowing an archer to buy arrows.

EDIT: Also, archivists can cast heal as a level 5 spell, due to the Adept's spell list.
kyutip
10-16-06, 09:16 PM ok so you can buy scrolls and copy them into your prayerbook. fail the check and you cant try again till youve gained a lvl. not to mention the time it takes to study the spell b4 you can put it in your book. most of the adventures ive run through, or have run other through, allow some down time but not always for as long or as often as a player wants. and finding uncommon spells involves finding someone to cast them for you. imop youll only get what your dm wants you to get. again, cool class? 4 sure, horribly broken? im not seeing it. :pbbbtt: toodles
Cailin
10-18-06, 02:31 PM As a note of interest - I will say that the Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine) has just about the best casting mechanism. (variable spontaneous casting from an entire core class list...) . They also have some pretty good abilities. The only downside is that as a expansion book class, they have recieved very little PRC support.
I agree that they look like an interesting variant, but I must be missing something; how do spirit shaman get access to the spell lists of the all of the core classes? According to the Complete Divine description (page 16) of the Spirit Shaman, "a spirit shaman casts divine spells from the druid spell list".
kaiza
10-18-06, 06:11 PM In fact he said "an entire core class list", which stands for "one", the druid's. :)

k.
Lord_of_Omnipotence
10-18-06, 07:54 PM ok so you can buy scrolls and copy them into your prayerbook. fail the check and you cant try again till youve gained a lvl. not to mention the time it takes to study the spell b4 you can put it in your book. most of the adventures ive run through, or have run other through, allow some down time but not always for as long or as often as a player wants. and finding uncommon spells involves finding someone to cast them for you. imop youll only get what your dm wants you to get. again, cool class? 4 sure, horribly broken? im not seeing it. :pbbbtt: toodles

For one thing, failing the check would require a really low spellcraft bonus, considering the DC is only 15 + spell level. If you take 10, you only need a spellcraft bonus of 5+spell level. Considering you'll be putting ranks into spellcraft at every level and int is a primary stat for archivists, there's no way you're going to fail the check.

As for the time it takes to add a spell to your spell list, its a day per spell. This really isn't that big of a toll on your time. If your DM doesn't even allow you a few days to rest in between adventures, that's a personal trait of his campaign. In most campaigns, you're allowed a substantial amount of time to rest between adventures. Otherwise things such as crafting items would be impossible.

Finding an uncommon spell isn't that difficult. The DM guide itself says that any item, mundane or magical, that is under the price of the most expensive item that a town offers is most likely available in that town. Therefore, any scroll you would like to purchase would most likeley be available in a decent sized town or city.

I wouldn't call the class horribly broken, but i would say that it is easily the best spellcasting class in the game.
Cailin
10-19-06, 09:59 AM In fact he said "an entire core class list", which stands for "one", the druid's. :)

k.
Oops, you're correct. I'm sorry. I don't know how I misread that. :embarrass

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ho-Hunter 10-14-06, 02:14 PM	hi! i am not too experienced with spellcasters and want to play one the next capaign. what do you think is the overall best spellcasting class? i am thinking of versatility, spellprogression, offense, defense, buffin,.....! including all sorts of spells, like psi,... how about the wu jen in a non-oa setting? please let me know, what the pros and cons of the classes are. we wont be allowed to choose more than one prc. thanks for your help!
McBAMF 10-14-06, 02:56 PM	I'd go for wizard for versatility. IMO probably the "best" spellcaster. P.S. This question is a very arbitrary and opinionated question.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-14-06, 03:03 PM	Cleric and Druid have time and again proven their usefulness and versatility. They are good spellcasters at all levels, they can both heal, thus helping both yourself and your party. They can wear armor and use shields and hold their own in regular combat. Most definitely optimizer's pics to your question in general. :)
Phoenix00 10-14-06, 03:06 PM	Core: Druid because you can wildshape and still have a great spell list. Cleric with access to Complete Divine. Archivist and Artificer can be completely broken if you know how to play one, but these two builds are not Core+Complete.
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-14-06, 06:43 PM	I'd definately have to go with Archivist, simply because this class gets basically every spell in the game, and can cast more frequently than wizards, as well as reap the benefits of more hit dice, armor, and a couple of nifty class features.
Avanter 10-15-06, 06:57 AM	Archivist. They get all those great spells as early as possible as well... there are some nifty 4th level paladin and ranger only spells, that they have to wait until level 14 to get. The Archivist gets them in half the time. Other than that, I would have to go with Druid, then Cleric, then Wizard.
X-Codes 10-15-06, 07:05 AM	Archivist. They get all those great spells as early as possible as well... there are some nifty 4th level paladin and ranger only spells, that they have to wait until level 14 to get. The Archivist gets them in half the time. Other than that, I would have to go with Druid, then Cleric, then Wizard. Actually, Archivists get level 4 Paladin spells in less than 1/4 the XP it takes for a Paladin to get level 4 Paladin spells. Honestly I find that mildly disturbing.
FiestFan 10-15-06, 09:05 AM	Including Psionics, I'd think Erudite deserves some consideration. Overall, I'll agree that Archivist has an edge from a pure 'spell-casting' perspective. The best 'Class' that also casts spells is Druid.
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-15-06, 02:16 PM	I'd say Archivist beats Erudite, simply because there's so much more material for spellcasters than for psions. Even though both the Erudite and the Archivist have the potential to learn basically anything from their respective disciplines, the fact that Archivists have about 20 times the material to draw on puts them on a higher tier than their psionic counterpart.
Avanter 10-15-06, 03:18 PM	Actually, Archivists get level 4 Paladin spells in less than 1/4 the XP it takes for a Paladin to get level 4 Paladin spells. Honestly I find that mildly disturbing. hey, you're right, I was thinking level 7 to level 14...I didnt even think of actual XP.
deathwishjoe 10-15-06, 03:30 PM	the best spell casting class is actually a PrC thats rather difficult to get into but in 10 levels it has 9th level spell casting spontaneous spellcasting from a spell book. so its like the best of both worlds from sorcerer and wizard. and it uses the generally superior arcane casting spell list. its the beholder mage. you have to use LoPs #1 dirty trick to enter it with a normal character but never the less a power spell casting class that I feel beats out even the archivist.
Hanniball 10-15-06, 04:10 PM	what do you think is the overall best spellcasting class? Personally, I think this is a far too arbitrary question to warrant a definitive response. In specific situations, one spellcasting class will outshine any other, but fall behind in other situations. So, the answer to your question is: It depends on what you are trying to do.
FriendlyFrog 10-15-06, 05:51 PM	the best spell casting class is actually a PrC thats rather difficult to get into but in 10 levels it has 9th level spell casting spontaneous spellcasting from a spell book. so its like the best of both worlds from sorcerer and wizard. and it uses the generally superior arcane casting spell list. You forgot to mention that they don't need any material components, that they cast their spells as free actions and that they an cast a single spell of every level within one round. That PrC is crazy, I wish I could play a Beholder just once...
EyeontheMountain 10-15-06, 06:18 PM	For jsut straight casting, I would say Cleric. They can heal, buff, get rid of bad conditions, and do jsut about everything else. Not as great of a blaster as mage, but close, exspecially at the high levels Unfortunately they have few good prestige clases out there that do not cause a los of spellcasting ability.
the_fenris_wolf 10-15-06, 09:02 PM	I just cant pass up a druid, possible the best core class EVA.
kyutip 10-15-06, 10:38 PM	where can the Archavist be found?
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-15-06, 10:40 PM	The Archivist can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3
kyutip 10-16-06, 12:00 AM	thanks, found it. and what is it that makes this class so broken? what am i missing?
pad300 10-16-06, 12:31 AM	As a note of interest - I will say that the Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine) has just about the best casting mechanism. (variable spontaneous casting from an entire core class list...) . They also have some pretty good abilities. The only downside is that as a expansion book class, they have recieved very little PRC support.
Timespike 10-16-06, 12:38 AM	thanks, found it. and what is it that makes this class so broken? what am i missing? You can potentially cast ANY divine spell in the entire game, even ones that only show up on prestige class lists. If you can grab spells from the shugenja list, for instance, you can cast fireball as a level 4 divine spell. If you get access to paladin spellcasting, you can learn divine sacrifice. And so on.
kyutip 10-16-06, 12:53 AM	ok but even with that being said you have to find the spells. how often have you come across non-cleric spells on scrolls in your adventuring experience? and as for esoteric sources what that says to me is that the only spells that you are learning are the ones the dm decides to make available for you. and, of course, theres the fun of keeping your spellbook or rather "prayer book" intact and in your posession. which brings us to your stats. bonus spells are determined by your wisdom, your actual casting is based off of int and alot of divine spells work better with a good charisma. so again maybe im not seeing the big picture. i think its a cool and pretty strong class but im not seeing how it can be so broken. just my 2 cents.:confused:
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-16-06, 01:38 AM	You can buy said scrolls in shops the same way you buy any magic items. And as for mad, you don't need to worry too much. You get more spells than a wizard anyway, so your wis doesn't need to be extraordinary. The reason they're broken is they can get basically any spell in the game, as cleric domains have some great utility spells, and classes like shugenja can cast all sorts of divine spells that are usually exclusive to a single class. They can get spells like fireball, magic missile, teleport, dominate person, basically anything any spellcaster could ever want.
kaiza 10-16-06, 01:41 AM	That's the "potential" part. Here at the CO Boards a class is assessed by its mechanics, not by its actual value in your (or my) game. k.
FriendlyFrog 10-16-06, 05:48 AM	When making magic items, you don't have to cast the spell yourself. Archivists also get Scribe scroll for free. So you just pay an NPC to cast the spell you want, make a scroll of it, and then copy it to your book.
ShubNiggurath 10-16-06, 08:29 AM	Druid The answer to all the questions that start by "What is the best" is druid. Or cleric with DMM(persistent)
Lo77o 10-16-06, 01:15 PM	I should smack you all over your heads... only one of you mentioned artificers, and none of you made a point out af saying its the BEST caster in the game "alongside the best everything else in the game". And dont give me that whole "they dont CAST spells, they MAKE magic items", becourse thats just semantics. And with it you dont need special dm permissíon to make a scroll of any and all spells you will ever need/want, or wands or any other items thats allready listed within the rules.
MegaPlex 10-16-06, 02:45 PM	ok but even with that being said you have to find the spells. how often have you come across non-cleric spells on scrolls in your adventuring experience? Take a look here at the Adept spells list -- a core class from the DMG that casts divine spells: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm 1st level: Burning Hands 2nd level: Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Web 3rd level: Lightning Bolt 4th level: Polymorph, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire 5th level: Baleful Polymorph Here is a list of all Divine casters with spell lists: Adapt Apostle of Peace Beloved of Valarian Blackguard Blighter Cleric Druid Emissary of Barachiel Ghampion of Gwynharwyf Hunter of the Dead Knight of the Chalice Paladin Ranger Shugenja Vassal of Bahamut In addition to all the domain spells out there. There are also some prestige classes you can get into that normaly only druid/ranger classes can qualify for. And remember Divine spells don't have Arcane Spell Failure chance, so spending a feat (or take a PrC) for Heavy Armor is a good idea. Cast that Lightning Bolt in full plate + shield!
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-16-06, 07:06 PM	That's the "potential" part. Here at the CO Boards a class is assessed by its mechanics, not by its actual value in your (or my) game. k. It's not exactly considered "potential". Not allowing an archivist to buy scrolls is like not allowing a cleric to buy a holy symbol, or not allowing an archer to buy arrows. EDIT: Also, archivists can cast heal as a level 5 spell, due to the Adept's spell list.
kyutip 10-16-06, 09:16 PM	ok so you can buy scrolls and copy them into your prayerbook. fail the check and you cant try again till youve gained a lvl. not to mention the time it takes to study the spell b4 you can put it in your book. most of the adventures ive run through, or have run other through, allow some down time but not always for as long or as often as a player wants. and finding uncommon spells involves finding someone to cast them for you. imop youll only get what your dm wants you to get. again, cool class? 4 sure, horribly broken? im not seeing it. :pbbbtt: toodles
Cailin 10-18-06, 02:31 PM	As a note of interest - I will say that the Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine) has just about the best casting mechanism. (variable spontaneous casting from an entire core class list...) . They also have some pretty good abilities. The only downside is that as a expansion book class, they have recieved very little PRC support. I agree that they look like an interesting variant, but I must be missing something; how do spirit shaman get access to the spell lists of the all of the core classes? According to the Complete Divine description (page 16) of the Spirit Shaman, "a spirit shaman casts divine spells from the druid spell list".
kaiza 10-18-06, 06:11 PM	In fact he said "an entire core class list", which stands for "one", the druid's. :) k.
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-18-06, 07:54 PM	ok so you can buy scrolls and copy them into your prayerbook. fail the check and you cant try again till youve gained a lvl. not to mention the time it takes to study the spell b4 you can put it in your book. most of the adventures ive run through, or have run other through, allow some down time but not always for as long or as often as a player wants. and finding uncommon spells involves finding someone to cast them for you. imop youll only get what your dm wants you to get. again, cool class? 4 sure, horribly broken? im not seeing it. :pbbbtt: toodles For one thing, failing the check would require a really low spellcraft bonus, considering the DC is only 15 + spell level. If you take 10, you only need a spellcraft bonus of 5+spell level. Considering you'll be putting ranks into spellcraft at every level and int is a primary stat for archivists, there's no way you're going to fail the check. As for the time it takes to add a spell to your spell list, its a day per spell. This really isn't that big of a toll on your time. If your DM doesn't even allow you a few days to rest in between adventures, that's a personal trait of his campaign. In most campaigns, you're allowed a substantial amount of time to rest between adventures. Otherwise things such as crafting items would be impossible. Finding an uncommon spell isn't that difficult. The DM guide itself says that any item, mundane or magical, that is under the price of the most expensive item that a town offers is most likely available in that town. Therefore, any scroll you would like to purchase would most likeley be available in a decent sized town or city. I wouldn't call the class horribly broken, but i would say that it is easily the best spellcasting class in the game.
Cailin 10-19-06, 09:59 AM	In fact he said "an entire core class list", which stands for "one", the druid's. :) k. Oops, you're correct. I'm sorry. I don't know how I misread that. :embarrass