Post/Author/DateTime	Post
der_gogo 12-28-03, 03:36 PM	I am playing a Fighter1/Wizard5/EldritichKnightX. Str: 14 Dex: 18 Con: 12 Int: 16 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 I know this is not the strongest build, and the stats could be allocated differenty, but I don't want to change anything there. This guy should be a Melee type of character wielding a Falchion. Currenty the Char is lvl 6. Which spells should I not miss for this character? What schools to specialize in, what schools to drop? What I have so far: - Specialisation: Necromancy - Prohibited Schools: Conjuration, Enchantment I won't miss the loss of Mage Armor, since the party Sorc is able to cast that. The loss of Teleport hurts a bit more. Enchantment has some nice new buffs in 3.5, but there are enough other ones in other schools. Spells that I think are must-have: - Shield - Shocking Grasp - Ray of Enfeeblement - Enlarge Person - Bull's Strength - False Life: No Cleric in party, low HP on my side - Scorching Ray - Haste - Vampiric Touch: for HP also - Greater Invis - Polymorph What do u say?
Israfel666 12-28-03, 04:59 PM	Drop Evocation - very few Gish (warrior-mages) ever have the time to let out magic missiles and fireballs I agree on Enchantment being best to be dropped. However, if you think enchantments might be helpful, consider Abjuration as a possible choice - with your lower caster level you aren't going to dispel or dismiss/banish much, so the only spells you are really going to miss are shield and resist energy, but they can be picked up by your sorcerer (the first in exchange for you casting mage armor, and the second being a good choice for any sorcerer due to its versatility). Necromancy usually isn't a good specialization pick, but without a cleric you'll have a great need of false life and especially vampiric touch (the second being one of the best spells for gish, hands down).
der_gogo 12-28-03, 05:32 PM	Yes, maybe I could drop Evocation instead of Conjuration. But there really is not so much to miss in Conjuration as far as I've seen so far... School Specialisation in Transmutation would also be an option I would recon, since there is always a useful spell at every lvl. Abjuration has so damn useful spells at higher lvls like Antimagic Field and Spell Turning. If I ever get there, that is :D The Sorcerer is an Evoker-Style of guy, so I think he won't take many of the utility spells :D
der_gogo 12-29-03, 05:42 PM	Another thing: Which Feats should I definitely take?
Israfel666 12-29-03, 05:59 PM	Weapon Finesse (with Dex 18 and Str 14, just drop that falchion and grab a rapier), Extend Spell (a spell that lasts double means one less round spent on casting), Skill Focus: Concentration (helps a lot, and it's way better than Combat Casting), [Greater] Spell Focus: Necromancy (that's the only offensive school you're going to use), Craft Wondrous Item (priceless for any wizard), Arcane Strike (the ultimate Gish feat from Complete Warrior, lets you drop a spell for a bonus on attacks and damage). At high levels, grab Quicken Spell - warrior/mages really need to cast as few spells as they can. Oh, and I just figured out that if you don't have a cleric, your Sorcerer (high Charisma guy) might want to take Leadership at 6th level and get a healer cohort, if your DM allows.
JosephKell 12-29-03, 06:24 PM	Originally posted by der_gogo Yes, maybe I could drop Evocation instead of Conjuration. But there really is not so much to miss in Conjuration as far as I've seen so far... School Specialisation in Transmutation would also be an option I would recon, since there is always a useful spell at every lvl. Abjuration has so damn useful spells at higher lvls like Antimagic Field and Spell Turning. If I ever get there, that is :D The Sorcerer is an Evoker-Style of guy, so I think he won't take many of the utility spells :D Your guy will fail without Conjuration. Mage Armor (1 hour per caster level! You can't beat that) Some evocation is nice, but you can't prepare enough spells. Enchantment school is nice (Heroism and Greater Heroism) The more I think about it, the better Sorcerers look for Gish because you don't have to prepare your spells. But the diehard Gish spells are: 0 - Detect Magic, Message 1 - Mage Armor, Feather Fall, Color Spray, Obscuring Mist 2 - Mirror Image, False Life, Blindness/Deafness, Scorching Ray* 3 - Dispel Magic*, Heroism, Displacement, Ray of Exhaustion*, Vampiric Touch* 4 - Greater Invisibility, Enervation, Solid Fog, Bestow Curse 5 - Break Enchantment, Dismissal, Wall of Stone, (Transmute Rock to Mud, Transmute Mud to Rock) 6 - Greater Heroism, Flesh to Stone, Mislead, to name a few. Asterisked spells are good to put into a Spellstoring Weapon. Whatever Spells you pick, Take Combat Casting and Skill Focus (Concentration). Also don't build around the assumption that you can spend two rounds casting spells. That is why Mage Armor is so great, it has a long duration.
der_gogo 12-30-03, 07:13 AM	Originally posted by Israfel666 Weapon Finesse (with Dex 18 and Str 14, just drop that falchion and grab a rapier) Hm, I have 2 problems that arise with that: - If I cast Enlarge Person/Polymorph on myself, I have just lost a feat - A rapier deals far less damage Originally posted by JosephKell Your guy will fail without Conjuration. Mage Armor (1 hour per caster level! You can't beat that) As I said before, the party sorc is able to cast that spell on me. So its not a big issue. Some evocation is nice, but you can't prepare enough spells. True, but Shocking grasp for instance is very strong, especially at my lvl 6, while I have 5 caster levels. Enchantment school is nice (Heroism and Greater Heroism) Yes, I have also looked at those 2 new spells. They look nice. That makes it even harder for me to decide which schools to drop ;-) The more I think about it, the better Sorcerers look for Gish because you don't have to prepare your spells. Yes, I guess Sorcs would be stronger overally. But I settled with wizard for roleplaying issues and because there is another sorc in our party. I could also play a non-specialist wizard, maybe that would be better? But the diehard Gish spells are: 0 - Detect Magic, Message 1 - Mage Armor, Feather Fall, Color Spray, Obscuring Mist 2 - Mirror Image, False Life, Blindness/Deafness, Scorching Ray* 3 - Dispel Magic*, Heroism, Displacement, Ray of Exhaustion*, Vampiric Touch* 4 - Greater Invisibility, Enervation, Solid Fog, Bestow Curse 5 - Break Enchantment, Dismissal, Wall of Stone, (Transmute Rock to Mud, Transmute Mud to Rock) 6 - Greater Heroism, Flesh to Stone, Mislead, Yes, I definetly agree with that, also adding Enlarge Person, Shocking Grasp and Polymorph. EDIT: JosephKell, just saw your "Arcane Gish" thread. I will dig deeper into that, now. This topic helped me finding out what a Gish is, so I can go watch the other thread :D
jonas_lind 12-30-03, 08:22 AM	A couple of thoughts.... Consider taking 5 levels in Spellsword (complete warrior), as it gives you full bab, 20% ASF reduction 3 caster levels _and_ 3 daily uses of spell-channel which is _excellent_ for vampiric touch :) I know that the caster lvl reduction will hurt a bit, (and really, spellsword should be taken before going into EK), still I think it's worth considering.. Secondly, I'd specialize in Transmutation ASAP..tis true that abjuration is nice, but no school contains useful gish spells at _every level_ like Trans does...and that's really what you need..a useful spell at every level..not a doubly useful spell at every other level. Thirdly, you made the correct choice in going wizzie, as your caster lvl is already hurting as gish, you dont need the extra lvl down, that sorcerers have to deal with. Also, Arcane Strike is more useful (comparatively) to wizards than to sorcs..and the one big advantage is that you can sacrifice _whatever_ spell you have...including your quickened-empowered featherfall ;-) As for feats...well, Arcane Strike for sure. Power Attack because you'll love it with True Strike and your (hopefully soon to be keen) Falchion..Armed with that you'll be outright murderous.. If you prefer to be a second-rank (not to be confused with second-rate) combatant, consider the spiked-chain, with imp trip route..combined with BS and enlarge you'll be knocking people off their feet left and right, very effective and increases your survivability ten-fold if you're pressed for hitpoints. jonas
jonas_lind 12-30-03, 08:22 AM	A couple of thoughts.... Consider taking 5 levels in Spellsword (complete warrior), as it gives you full bab, 20% ASF reduction 3 caster levels _and_ 3 daily uses of spell-channel which is _excellent_ for vampiric touch :) I know that the caster lvl reduction will hurt a bit, (and really, spellsword should be taken before going into EK), still I think it's worth considering.. Secondly, I'd specialize in Transmutation ASAP..tis true that abjuration is nice, but no school contains useful gish spells at _every level_ like Trans does...and that's really what you need..a useful spell at every level..not a doubly useful spell at every other level. Thirdly, you made the correct choice in going wizzie, as your caster lvl is already hurting as gish, you dont need the extra lvl down, that sorcerers have to deal with. Also, Arcane Strike is more useful (comparatively) to wizards than to sorcs..and the one big advantage is that you can sacrifice _whatever_ spell you have...including your quickened-empowered featherfall ;-) As for feats...well, Arcane Strike for sure. Power Attack because you'll love it with True Strike and your (hopefully soon to be keen) Falchion..Armed with that you'll be outright murderous.. If you prefer to be a second-rank (not to be confused with second-rate) combatant, consider the spiked-chain, with imp trip route..combined with BS and enlarge you'll be knocking people off their feet left and right, very effective and increases your survivability ten-fold if you're pressed for hitpoints. jonas
Lord Arkhaven 12-30-03, 09:49 AM	End Build: Fighter 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10 BAB: +16 (4 Attacks), Caster Level: 17th (9th Level Spells) Take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Your fighting aspect can be with a bow and arrow. These feats will assist you with your ranged touch attack spells as well. Take Spell Focus (Conjurations) and Augment Summoning. Your caster level loss will not be felt so much when you summon because your beasties will have more Hit Points. Conjurations in attack form (such as Melf's Acid Arrow or Arc of Lightning) bypass Spell Resistance so you won't feel the caster level loss there either. In time you can research Conjurations that require a ranged touch attacks and play to both your strengths. The beauty of this build is the lack of commitment required. This build gives you a total of 7 character feats, 3 fighter feats, and 1 wizard feat plus Scribe Scroll (and another if you are human.) That's 4 four feats out of 11 and we already have a character concept - an elf archer who summons aid when needed to his side. You don't need to push either concept further than that and you still have 7 feats to play with. If you wish to get more restrictive with feats you can go: Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Archmage 2 This gives you the same BAB and Caster Levels. You already have one Spell Focus, simply pick another as well as Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and you qualify for Archmage. That's still 5 free feats to round out your character. Not since the Cleric/Archer build have I seen a build that asks for so little. It is waiting for someone to come along and really string the feats together to make a machine but the variety it gives doesn't demand it. At the end of the day you are practically a full fledged wizard with better hit points who is decent with a bow when he wants to concerve spell power.
Yuppus 12-30-03, 10:46 AM	some nice combos: plaese, correct me if there's some error improved grab + enlarge expeditious retreat + the feat tree that breaks the movement in two parts before and after the attack blind fighting + obscuring mist bull strength + power attack fly + archery tree displacement+ whirlwind tree Cheers
Ehlonnia 12-30-03, 10:55 AM	Originally posted by der_gogo - If I cast Enlarge Person/Polymorph on myself, I have just lost a feat Just a small note regarding this... Enlarge only effects humanoid creatures... so if you Poly yourself, and then Enlarge person, it only works if you are a humanoid (since Poly now changes your type). If you're polying yourself into humanoids we'll need to have a chat ;) In general, though, if you plan on using Poly as your primary offensive method, Weapon Finesse is not as solid an option as something like Power Attack.
der_gogo 12-30-03, 11:29 AM	I meant using either of those two. When casting Enlarge Person my Dex gets 16 and my Str also, so the feat is also wasted. I would never admit to polymorph into humanoid form on the optimization board :D
der_gogo 12-31-03, 08:34 AM	Okay, I took School Specialisation: Transmutation, banning Conjuration and Enchantment. - I bought a wand of Mage Armor which the party Sorc uses on me whenever it is necessary. - Heroism/Greater Heroism are great spells, but I want to have some damage Spells from Evocation school, because they could prove useful many times. My attack bonus should be okay when invisible or polymorphed. - I switched my race from Elf to human, reducing dex to 16, increasing con to 14. - Feats taken (in order of taking): Weapon Focus(Falchion), Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Craft Wondrous Item, Spell Penetration, Power Attack, Dodge (all until lvl 10) any final comments?
Snow Savant 12-31-03, 08:58 AM	By far and away, Lord Arkhaven's angle is my favorite EK concept. It economically gives you a strong EK archetype with remaining flexibility in regards to customized feat selection. The EK is really best in spellcasting when it does not have to rely on DC-based success when casting offensive spells. Unfortunately, you banned Conjuration. And that's the school where DC success matters the least as many of the spells do not give the victims saves and/or SR. And of course, as L. Arkhaven stated, you get the vast utility of the SM spells to boot. Der Gogo, Your feat selection looks a little sketchy. I would seriously think about including both Arcane Strike and Quicken Spell into your repertoire of feats. The former is tailor-made for an EK's fighting style in regards to flexibility of resources (converting spells to melee damage). The latter optimizes your hybrid combat style and allows for easy, quick buffs.
Whakapapa 12-31-03, 09:43 AM	Originally posted by der_gogo - Feats taken (in order of taking): Weapon Focus(Falchion), Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Craft Wondrous Item, Spell Penetration, Power Attack, Dodge (all until lvl 10) any final comments? Yes, don't take imp. initiative, spell penetration and weapon focus...get quicken spell, mobility and improved grap imagine yourself going beserk with enlarge, polymorph and shapechange, trip + grapple away!! :D Quicken is very useful for making a melee attack that gives "+your base attack in damage" due to true strike ;)
der_gogo 12-31-03, 11:06 AM	Originally posted by Snow Savant By far and away, Lord Arkhaven's angle is my favorite EK concept. It economically gives you a strong EK archetype with remaining flexibility in regards to customized feat selection. The EK is really best in spellcasting when it does not have to rely on DC-based success when casting offensive spells. Unfortunately, you banned Conjuration. And that's the school where DC success matters the least as many of the spells do not give the victims saves and/or SR. And of course, as L. Arkhaven stated, you get the vast utility of the SM spells to boot. Yes, I should look a bit around for spells that neglect SR and give no save... True, that could be a problem since the lower caster lvl. So I will give the Conjuration damage spells a closer look, maybe I can drop Evocation instead. Although Scorching Ray and Scocking Grasp are both very nice. Der Gogo, Your feat selection looks a little sketchy. I would seriously think about including both Arcane Strike and Quicken Spell into your repertoire of feats. The former is tailor-made for an EK's fighting style in regards to flexibility of resources (converting spells to melee damage). The latter optimizes your hybrid combat style and allows for easy, quick buffs. We don't have the 3.5 supplements yet, so I have to stay with the PHB and DMG only. So no Arcane Strike, what definitely is a pity. Yes, I should change dodge at lvl 9 into Quicken Spell. Before that I don't have spell slots that are high enough I would recon (without calculating it :) ) @ Whakapapa: Quickened True Strike looks awsome! thx for that combo :)
Phildo 12-31-03, 12:14 PM	I think Arcane Strike came from a Dragon Issue. Functionally, I seem to remember it being similar to an arcane version of Divine Might.
JosephKell 12-31-03, 05:02 PM	Damn Newbies (and this time I have good grounds). Improved Initaitive is the single most important feat in the game. The only reason to put it off is if you can't enter a PrC at character level 6 or 7 otherwise. But never taking it will hurt you. Like Likk said, in Turn-Based Games: The Best Defense is a Good Offense. Acting first gives you the chance to turn the enemy into a heap of death before they can retaliate. If there were a Greater Initiative Feat that added another +4 to your Initiative, I would say take that too! Heck, one of the most broken things about the Dervish is that it will let you use a Greatsword, get a +1 for each odd level, a speed bonus, and an initiative bonus (+2). Dex +6 is GREAT.
helicopter 12-31-03, 07:23 PM	can the haughty attitude, jk. name calling ain't very nice. imp. initiative is a good feat, but not the be-all, end-all. especially if you are an archer eldritch knight. you often have closing space between you and your enemies that buys you some time in case you go later on in the initiative rank. der gogo, why do you want to trip? you should just zone in on blowing your enemies to smithereens. i'm glad you got craft wondrous item -- every wizard needs at least one creation feat no matter what kind of specialist he is
Eagle Prince 12-31-03, 07:34 PM	I would add animate dead to the list of spells you want. Large HD sketetons and zombies will be good for flanking and soaking up damage for you. Tenser Transformation is something you'd probably want too. You don't always have a lot of time to buff up, and TT will let you do a bunch of buffs in one spell. When time is important, this will let you buff up with one spell and start tearing people apart. Power Attack is a pretty good feat, because sometimes you'll end up with insane attack roll modifiers that are just going to waste.
JosephKell 12-31-03, 07:36 PM	Originally posted by helicopter can the haughty attitude, jk. name calling ain't very nice. imp. initiative is a good feat, but not the be-all, end-all. especially if you are an archer eldritch knight. you often have closing space between you and your enemies that buys you some time in case you go later on in the initiative rank. der gogo, why do you want to trip? you should just zone in on blowing your enemies to smithereens. i'm glad you got craft wondrous item -- every wizard needs at least one creation feat no matter what kind of specialist he is Actually it is the Be-All, End-All. EVERY type of character can use it. It makes the agile quicker and the average fast. The only reason my friend and I were able to have our characters make it to level 10 (two character party, pure Fighter and pure Sorcerer) was becaues we had Improved Initiative. Heck, our first adventure was meant for 4 2nd-level characters and we did it with a pair of 1st's. Slandering Improved Initiative does nothing but make a person look asinine. Why is Improved Initiative so good? 1. At Low levels it makes it 20% easier to get to act first, and at low levels all things are fragile, a good Greatsword charge can down a foe. 2. It allows casters a 20% higher chance of unloading their killer spells before the enemy is so close they risk their allies. 3. It is always better to act first. 4. See #3. 5. Improved Initiative + Point Blank Shot + Far Shot = More rounds to unload on an enemy. It only takes one Qaudruple 20 ft move to go 80 feet (and that is enough to get within charging range for all Medium sized guys in medium armor). Not to mention in a Core Arena PvP of a Level 2 Elven Fighter Archer versus a Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Fighter 1, the Half-Orc sprinted 160 ft to close the 200 ft gap very quickly. He sundered the bow, and then preceeded to waste the Glade Dancing Bi-Ped. 6. See #3 and #4. 7. He who goes first, usually wins. Look at the Core Arena Thread. All the winners too Improved Initiative. Level by Level PvP brings out the true winning combinations. 8. Having the most experienced player act first means he or she can help guide the flow of combat.
Eagle Prince 12-31-03, 07:36 PM	Originally posted by helicopter i'm glad you got craft wondrous item -- every wizard needs at least one creation feat no matter what kind of specialist he is I totally agree. Craft feats let you have way more equipment then you normally would have, and you actually get to choose what to make instead of being stuck with what you find (or paying a good chuck of money to have someone else make it for you).
der_gogo 01-01-04, 09:27 AM	Yes, Improved Initiative is great. Acting first means either the possibility of killing the first enemy or being able to cast the correct buff on yourself. "Red Dragon! I win initiative! Fireshield!" Improved Trip: I think it works nicely with Polymorph or Enlarge Person. You have reach, trip as AoO, win Str Check everytime, Foe can't attack, you get free attack. He stands up, AoO, trip...
Merbeast 01-01-04, 01:31 PM	I think Improved Initiative, like many feats, is more or less useful depending on: a) the DM b) the campaign c) your character The arena, while useful, is not comprehensive of all encounter forms and styles. All feats, to some extent or another, are useful, and that is why people want them for their characters.
Wyrd 01-02-04, 08:45 AM	For eldritch knights ... being an outsider is great :D ... thiefling, mechanatrix and some others are really worth the +1 ecl, because you have: - proficient with all martial weapons (debatable) - polymorph lets you shape in your own type, and the slaad / ghaele / astral deva / leonal series is better than anything else untill you hit the firbolg limit. Since you don't have much time in combat to cast (you want to hit them, right ?), use persistent spell and extend spell to get the stuff running for a long period. I like combat reflexes / expert tactician in combination with (greater) invisibility and (improved) blink, a nice free attack. The 2nd level "create magical tattoo" from frcs is a great spell, for +1 luck to attack, +2 competence to attack and a +1 casterlevel. If you're evil, at high levels use a persistent sadism (from bovd).
jonas_lind 01-02-04, 09:36 AM	On Imp Initiative: I think JK has overstated the importantness of this spell by a fair margin. First of all, Imp Ini does not assure that you win initiative. It's "only" +4 to the die roll, and unless your dex is _really_ high (and for fighter-wizards, it usually wont be), you will perhaps win a little more than half the time. That's ok, but it is by no means groundbreaking. A lot of combats start out with a prep-round, where people get amped up for combat, and a few of the more mobile creatures get a shot in. Winning this round is by no means crucial to the Gish, although certainly nice enough as it allows you to buff before sustaining the first attack. On +1ECL characters: I think the level-hit is too severe (yes even if it is only one level), to merit it. Two spells become somewhat nicer, Alter Self and Polymorph Self...The first one you'll get a around 4-5-6-7th level (depending on your build) and the other you'll likely get quite late in the game (since you're a gish)...taking a 1 level hit, for something where the bonusses are not apparent after around 6th level, and are limited and even limits you to quite a degree (both hp, caster lvl and bab will suffer), is just not worth it, IMO. jonas
Jindl 01-02-04, 10:55 AM	@jonas_lind - Regarding outsider type gish, I completely disagree. Take this for example: Aasimar Sor6 / EK 10 / Sac Ex 3. His lineage grants him a +2 to wis and +2 to Cha (his spellcasting stat), which will be preserved when he changes shape. His type grants him martial weapon prof's to easily qualify for EK. He casts as a 18th level caster. He has a BAB of 15. He can turn undead + take divine might. He adds the Exorcism domain to his spells known. At ECL 5 he can cast alter self into either an ice mephit (+4 Nat Armor, Small size, Fly 50 perfect, minor natural attacks) or a ravid (+15 Nat Armor !! , Claw and Tail Attacks). That's like getting a high level barkskin, a reduce person, and a improved version of fly - all with a 2nd level spell !! OR its like getting mega-armor with a 2nd level spell. If Alter Self is his first second level spell, False Life is his second. It's like being able to cure moderate wounds, except the temporary hps last 1 hr / lvl and they stack (debatable, but I think they do). As his first fourth level spell, he gets the all important Polymorph. Now, thanks to his outsider type, he can become an Erinyes (caster level 8), a Cornugon (caster level 15), a Death Slaad (caster level 15), and many others in between. And since he started as an Aasimar, his racial bonuses to Cha and Wis remain while in his new forms. Do you realize that a Cornugon has a Str 31, Dex 25, Con 25, base AC 35, 2 claws for 2d6+10, a bite for 2d8+5, and a tail for 2d6+5, has a 10 ft reach, and can Fly at 50 (average) !! And I shouldn't neglect to tell you what happens if he ever gets his hands on a scroll: polymorph any object. Because with his wisdom, he can afford to retry the scroll until it works (as his mishap chance will be much lower), and so eventually he'll get the spell correct, and become a Cornugon permanently (assuming he began with an Int of 14) !! And he can still Alter Self back into Aasimar form for looks (while retaining the really high ability scores of the Cornugon). I would also recommend a Hat of Disguise. This is an extremely powerful melee build. Plus there is something really cool about an Aasimar who is "cursed" with the form of a fiend, yet dedicates his life to destroying fiends. -Jindl EDIT: My apologies if this got somewhat off topic, but the four spells I listed are vital for an eldritch knight, IMHO.
der_gogo 01-02-04, 12:20 PM	Wowza, nice Stuff Jindl. I will definitely remember this build if we ever play a very high power campaign where the GM will allow this kind of stuff :D
jonas_lind 01-04-04, 08:37 AM	Jindl: Sacred Ex is 3.0, I wouldn't want to mix 3.0 and 3.5 prc's that breaks the game completely, so DoF priest classes (that where never ment to be used as arcane classes, IMO), don't really belong to Gish-builds. That of course is up to the individual DM but personally, I wouldn't approve. The Ravid seems completely over the board as well, is that 5HD or less ? what source is it from ?? Regarding Polymorph, the outsiders you suggest are very viable. But are they really worth it ? The cornugon definetely seems like a badass, and I'll be the first to admit that I haven't done my homework in the polymorph department, but I do recall that @caster lvl 15 giants will be your alternative, and while they don't have that high dex, or con, a Fire-Giant is not a pushover. I'm not arguing that the build is not good, but it's exotic, and for all but polymorph it is less powerful than your non-ecl gish...yes, +2 to cha is nice, but one caster lvl more, is a lot nicer. I'd rather spend my levels taking classes, that using an ECL race, especially for characters with caster levels. jonas
Andreas0815 01-04-04, 09:23 AM	Well, but you won´t have one casterlevel less with an outsider race. You can throw this one fighter level out of the window because you are already profienced with all martial weapons.
Ivarrius 01-04-04, 09:27 AM	I have to agree with JK on the imp initiative. How long do you want to be considered flat footed in the first round of combat? Or have many of you forgotten that before you act in the first round of combat, you are considred flat footed? Thats right, no dex bonus to your armor class, no attacks of opportunity at those who are trying to come in around you to have you in easy flanking positon for the next round, and you are primed for a sneak attack! Granted, you may not win everytime with the Improved Initiative Feat, but it will greatly increase your chance of survival. You may not go first, but you may go ahead of that higher level rogue who would just love to get his dagger into your spine before you even have the chance to move. with a dex +2 and Imp. Init you have a +6 to your initiative roll, that is nothing to scoff at. And any wizard/Fighter should have at least a dex of +2. And because it is the single most universally acceptable feat in the game, I would rank it as the Number 1 Feat in the game. Name one class that wouldn't benefit from acting quickly, or even acting first? Not one. GOGO - The scorching ray and shocking graps spells are very nice indeed, but there are so many other spells worth memorizing in those two levels, and with your 16 Int, your number of bonus spells is slightly lacking. You are better off finding spells that buff yourself and leaving the fireworks to the sorceror. That doesn't mean don't have them in your spell book, but it does mean maybe re evaluate the position you want to play in the group.
jonas_lind 01-04-04, 10:03 AM	Andreas: martial weapon prof is not the only thing to concern yourself about here...you might also want to have some proficiency with armors..also note that you'll be having app 10 hp (first level should be fighter or barb or pal for a gish...granting you 10/12 plus con) less for your entire career as outsider. That is something you'll be able to feel, esp. at lower levels, but also at higher.. your saves will be worse, your feat progression is behind and likewise with stat-progression. BAB is suffering, and all for that one polymorph..the more I think about it, the less I like outsiders as gish. Ivar: In that regard, I consider good spot-skill modifier at least as important as imp ini...A lot of potential surprise situations can be avoided with good spot, or good listen. That alone dimishes the value of imp ini, as it is not the only determinant for avoiding flat-footedness. Sure imp ini is nice, esp for chars who want to get that one action off before meleecombat (like sneak or fireball while the enemy is still gathered, or buff)..but it's still only +4, not "I'm always going to act first ". jonas
Jindl 01-04-04, 01:00 PM	Originally posted by jonas_lind Sacred Ex is 3.0, I wouldn't want to mix 3.0 and 3.5 prc's that breaks the game completely, so DoF priest classes (that where never ment to be used as arcane classes, IMO), don't really belong to Gish-builds. That of course is up to the individual DM but personally, I wouldn't approve. Referring back to the master of all things Gish, JosephKell lists Sacred Exorcist as one of the recommended PrC's in his 3.5 Gish thread. SnowSavant uses it in many of her Gish builds. It would seem the experts disagree with you. But, if you want to confirm the changes that Sacred Exorcist underwent to become 3.5, then check out the Living Greyhawk site, it has the RPGA approved conversions to this and many other PrC's. Originally posted by jonas_lind The Ravid seems completely over the board as well, is that 5HD or less ? what source is it from ?? The 3.5 Monster Manual. And it has 3 HD, so it is available as soon as you can cast, or use a scroll of Alter Self. Originally posted by jonas_lind Regarding Polymorph, the outsiders you suggest are very viable. But are they really worth it ? The cornugon definetely seems like a badass, and I'll be the first to admit that I haven't done my homework in the polymorph department, but I do recall that @caster lvl 15 giants will be your alternative, and while they don't have that high dex, or con, a Fire-Giant is not a pushover. They grant flight, high natural armor, good physical attributes and natural attacks ... for just one spell. Some of the same buffs could be achieved through many other spells, but not in just one standard action. And while a fire giant may be tough, the Cornugon would eat him for lunch (4 natural attacks for more damage, better AC, and flight...) Originally posted by jonas_lind I'm not arguing that the build is not good, but it's exotic, and for all but polymorph it is less powerful than your non-ecl gish...yes, +2 to cha is nice, but one caster lvl more, is a lot nicer. If you are going Gish, you need a good BAB. That means you'll be taking Eldritch Knight - which requires the sacrifice of a caster level to gain the martial weapon profs. Andreas0815 already pointed out that aasimar grants the same martial profs, with the same loss of caster level. An Aasimar Sorceror 6 / EK 5, casts at the same level as a Human Fighter 1 / Sorceror 6 / EK 5. The Aasimar has advantages with spells, the human has advantages with feats. I think spells are more powerful than feats, as is clearly shown in my above posts. The human has a BaB of 1 higher, which is pretty irrelevant in the long run. The aasimar will have better saves, due to the racial wisdom bonus and the better Con and Dex of his polymorph options. As for stat progression, the only worthwile ability to enhance is Cha, as polymorph will replace all the physical abilites. And the Aasimar starts with a +2 to Charisma, meaning his stats will always be better than the humans. As for the few extra Hp's the human would have, it is easily remedied by the casting of False Life, which lasts 1 hr / level. Besides when you are sporting AC 35 + dex at level 4, Hp's become less important. Ultimately you play whatever type of Gish you like. But as this is the optimization board, I think that there is a VERY good case for stating that Aasimars make excellent Gish. -Jindl
der_gogo 01-04-04, 01:19 PM	I think that wearing Armor is no concern for a Gish unless he is high lvl enough to have an ignore spellfailure ability or the ability to cast his spells with Still Spell....
rich2939 01-04-04, 02:32 PM	Can you break down that "35 AC at level 4" statement?
Jindl 01-04-04, 02:39 PM	Originally posted by rich2939 Can you break down that "35 AC at level 4" statement? At level 4, the Aasimar Sorceror learns Alter Self (he could do it at level 3 with a scroll of Alter Self). Alter Self -> Ravid form (from MM) = +15 natural armor Mage Armor -> +4 Armor bonus Shield -> +4 Shield bonus Protection from Evil -> +2 deflection bonus = AC 35 + dex. The protection from alignment may be unnecessary, except when facing a BBEG, so I would cast it from a scroll. So, at 4th level, you know Alter Self as your second level spell, Mage Armor and Shield as two of your first level spells (leaving one more 1st level spell, which I recommend True Strike, Magic Missile, or Shocking Grasp.) -Jindl
JosephKell 01-04-04, 02:59 PM	Originally posted by der_gogo I think that wearing Armor is no concern for a Gish unless he is high lvl enough to have an ignore spellfailure ability or the ability to cast his spells with Still Spell.... High enough level? I made all of my guys able to wear Armor at level 6 for the Heavy Spellsword or Level 7 for the Rage Mage (no wonder he is so mad) And Ivarrius made a good point. Improved Initiative is also defensive. How many sneak attacks can you take? Especially when you don't HAVE to take it. Granted you only take one sneak attack from melee! But if you ran into an archer rogue, you would be a humanoid pin cushion. Remember, most Rogues are Dex heavy. So they already HAVE great Initiatives, and more dangerous Rogues have Improved Initiative. The reason Improved Initiative is the best feat is because it is an enabler. It lets you do a melee attack, it lets you cast a spell. But it lets you do it first more often.
Israfel666 01-04-04, 05:14 PM	Why not a Tiefling instead of Aasimar? +2 Dex / +2 Int / -2 Cha is better for a Wizard Gish than +2 Wis / +2 Cha is for a Sorcerer Gish. Besides, darkness has much more tactical use than light. And polymorphing into a Cornugon is much easier to justify ("I wanna look like granny!"). Chaonds are also good (+4 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha); were they a template (as I do in my games - I find Planetouched in general to be underpowered, especially if you do not accept the "proficient with all martial weapons" trick and actually have to play them through the low levels), Chaond Elf Bladesingers would be really powerful.
Jindl 01-04-04, 09:09 PM	It just depends on whether you want the quicken spell metamagic feat or the spell versatility of the sorceror. Both will end up taking 6 levels in their core class (for the last point of BAB). The quicken spell is great, especially for true striking + power attack. But, the sorceror has amazing versatility, and that will make it much easier to cope with buffs running out or being dispelled. So, I figure its pretty even between the two core classes. The aasimar has bonuses to Wis and Cha (both mental attributes which will be preserved during polymorph or PAO). The tieflings racial dex bonus will be lost during any polymorph effect, and his Int bonus will be lost during a PAO. So, I give the slight advantage to Aasimar. And Aasimar's now get daylight (not just light), which can impose light blindness penalties on drow, orcs, and such. The aasimar sorceror can take PrC's like sacred exorcist, which open the door to divine might (powerful for a Gish). The tiefling wizard can qualify for other PrC's like Incantrix or Archmage. So again, I think the PrC's are pretty even. IMO, the Aasimar Sorceror 6 / EK 10 / SacEx 3 will be slightly better than the Tiefling Wizard 6 / EK 10 / Acm 3. But both are valid in their own way. -Jindl
rich2939 01-04-04, 09:14 PM	I've thought about playing this type of character, but the thing I find myself coming back to: Is Polymorphing basically the end all combat option for this character? If it's the only real way to produce damage, I'll save my shifting for my druid.
Snow Savant 01-04-04, 09:15 PM	One of the benefits to taking the Sorc route over the Wiz route in EK builds is the potentiality of taking the Sacred Exorcist PrC to grab the Divine Might feat (via Turning & Power Attack). The Aasimar Sorc/EK puts a crimp on the final BAB if you chose to use Sacred Exorcist path. As you can't really get a BAB +16 in 20 levels. Food for thought when structuring your build. XO, Snow :)
Snow Savant 01-04-04, 09:22 PM	Rich2939 said: Is Polymorphing basically the end-all combat option for this character? Polymorphing is pretty much de rigeur for all min-maxed mid-to-high level Ftr/Magi characters. Especially since if you chose to not manifest yourself in your polymorphed form, you can always Alter Self back to your "original" form and pocket the stats of your polymorphed form. Stacking is legal via this route in 3.5. And its an economical and effective boost for the resource costs involved. So why not, ya know?
Kenkai 01-04-04, 09:24 PM	anybody have a link to the RPGA website? i'd like those conversions :)
Jindl 01-04-04, 09:27 PM	For the aasimar gish, yes, polymorphing (and higher level versions) is the best buff for combat. However, other spells like vampiric touch, chill touch, bulls strength, cats grace, bears endurance, shield, mage armor, false life, blink, blur, fire shield, stone skin, etc. can also make a terrible form even more terrifying. And with outsider forms available, this guy is a better shapeshifting combatant than the druid. @SnowSavant - It is true that you cannot achieve +16 BAB. But with divine might, and 4 or 5 natural attacks, is the last iterative that important? Probably not. -Jindl
Dorian H 01-05-04, 08:37 AM	You are quite low on HP, so don't stay in melee for too long, so I suggest "ride by" combat. Be human. I suggest in this order. Feats Lvl 1 : Mounted Combat, spirited charge, Ride by attack Lvl 3 : quicken spell, Lvl 6 : Power attack, Lvl 7 : cleave (EK bonus feat) Lvl 9 : dodge Lvl 12: spring attack If you dont't wanna go mounted, take dodge + spring attack before the mounted combat trea. More efficient, but far less fun. Then go with a lance and start thinking of quickened true strikes with a lance, charging with maximum power attack (whick will give you +96 DMG and +4 to hit at lvl 20) Note that the above idea leads to a core only build. Another option is to take a small size char, to mount your riding dog in dungeons.
rich2939 01-05-04, 11:35 AM	Is there a thread somewhere that summarizes the best of the best polymorphing options?
Lord Arkhaven 01-06-04, 11:15 AM	The very idea of an Aasimar taking a fiendish form seems wrong and heinous to me. To look, sound, and smell like a devil from hell would probably be an Aasimar's nightmare and it would turn him insane if he were not already. It's all well and good to say you're fighting evil but goodness is both the ends and the means. Could we not simply have the Aasimar turn into other, more powerful celestial forms (like an ursinal or a leonal) and keep the munchkin ship at half impulse? "When you turn into a fiend you make the baby Pelor cry."
JosephKell 01-06-04, 11:49 AM	Originally posted by Jindl For the aasimar gish, yes, polymorphing (and higher level versions) is the best buff for combat. However, other spells like vampiric touch, chill touch, bulls strength, cats grace, bears endurance, shield, mage armor, false life, blink, blur, fire shield, stone skin, etc. can also make a terrible form even more terrifying. And with outsider forms available, this guy is a better shapeshifting combatant than the druid. @SnowSavant - It is true that you cannot achieve +16 BAB. But with divine might, and 4 or 5 natural attacks, is the last iterative that important? Probably not. -Jindl The last iterative attack is usually not that important. But the BAB points leading to the fourth attack usually are the ones that give you an attack bonus to nearly rival a fighter. I would rather have +20/+15 over +15/+10/+5
greymarch 01-06-04, 01:59 PM	Three feats that every EK should have: 1. Improved Initiative: Best Feat in the game. After all, your opponent cannot hurt you if he is already dead. 2. Quicken Spell: Absolutely crucial for an EK. Cast a quickened buff on your character, then charge into combat! 3. Arcane strike: A wonderful feat for when you are fighting creatures that have high spell resistance, or have high Armor class.