Best split between Monk and cleric [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best split between Monk and cleric [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Alynn
07-21-06, 05:01 AM Having recently procured the entirety of the Complete series books, I found that Sacred Fist to be much to my liking. So I started on my next build that I would like to play.

I've determined that I need to take my first levels as a monk, and I need to do this for a minimum of 6 levels to get the feats I want. I know at a minimum I want the spell progression for a 10th level cleric, which means I need a minimum of 2 levels of cleric. So this gives me a choice of Mo6/Cl4, Mo7/Cl3, and Mo8/Cl2.

For magical items one of the more important ones is a monk's belt, I add this information to help you help me decide.

Ok now for feat selection
1) Improved Inititive, Dodge
3) Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
6) Improved Natural Attack
9) Combat Casting

for 12,15 and 18 I am undecided, but most likely it will involve 2 feats for mobility and spring attack, and the last may be Practiced Spellcaster, but largely my last feat selection isn't set in stone.

Now looking at the build, it basically comes down to, are the extra spells and levels worth the loss of the monk abilities.

From what I have come up with myself, the spellpower difference between a 12th and a 14th level cleric is one first level, 1 third level, 1 fifth level and 2+1 sixth level spell (without bonus spells for high wis) for a trade off of wholeness of body, and 40' slow fall, and a die increase on unarmed damage.

However, once I get my hands on the monks belt, my final unarmed damage will still be the same, (damage between a 21st level monk and a 23rd level monk) so in the end the loss of unarmed damage dice isn't a huge deal as it will be the same in the long run. However, if I don't get my hands on a monks belt then that will be a factor.

I've just been running around in circles in my mind trying to figure out what the best tradeoff is and since the people that frequent this board are probably much better at optimizing than I am, I come to you for advice.

Thanks
Boshi
07-21-06, 05:09 AM If you found Sacred Fist much to your liking why aren't you taking that PrC?

Dive into that PrC at the lowest possible level and you'll do MUCH MUCH MUCH better.
Alynn
07-21-06, 05:25 AM I am, I'm talking about the first 10 levels BEFORE I can take the PrC.

I'm aware you can take it early, but doing so really fudges up my unarmed damage in the long run, so I need to maximize my monk levels.
Ithandor
07-21-06, 06:02 AM "Unarmed Damage: A Sacred Fist's class levels stack with his Monk levels for the purpose of determining his unarmed damage."

So if you enter early you should be alright for unarmed damage. You can up your base unarmed damage too in a variety of ways; I'd recommend taking a look at mean_liar's thread on Monks in the Library.

For Sacred Fist both Monk4/Cleric2 and Monk2/Cleric4 are good ways to enter. Clerical spellcasting is *very* strong, so it's generally better to try and lose as little of it as possible. If you take Monk2/Cleric4 then Practiced Spellcaster will entirely make up for your loss of caster level from the 2 levels in Monk and the loss in Sacred Fist.

Hope some of this helps!

Ithandor
Alynn
07-21-06, 07:47 AM So if you enter early you should be alright for unarmed damage. You can up your base unarmed damage too in a variety of ways; I'd recommend taking a look at mean_liar's thread on Monks in the Library.

For Sacred Fist both Monk4/Cleric2 and Monk2/Cleric4 are good ways to enter. Clerical spellcasting is *very* strong, so it's generally better to try and lose as little of it as possible. If you take Monk2/Cleric4 then Practiced Spellcaster will entirely make up for your loss of caster level from the 2 levels in Monk and the loss in Sacred Fist.

Hope some of this helps!

Ithandor

What I meant about my unarmed damage I meant in the long run, that at the very least I need 5 monk levels to max out my unarmed damage (with monks belt) anything less is a nogo for me. Although the point of just taking one level of cleric and then start on the PrC does make a bit of sense.

I'm now leaning a bit towards Mo5/Cl1 I'll switch INA and Combat casting (taking CC at 6th and INA at 9th) which with a monks belt will put me at 20th level for unarmed damage, and 10th level for defense bonus. by the time I finish the 10 levels of SaF that will put me at 9th level for spells per day and CL, allowing me to put the last 4 levels into cleric.

With the monks belt this will make me a grand total of 20th level monk for unarmed damage(maxed) 4d8+strength, 10th level monk for everything else, and a 13th level cleric for spells per day, and a 5th level cleric for everything else. My flurry will be at +15/+15/+10/+5/+0. With practiced spellcaster I'm considered a 17th level cleric for CL dependant effects. And saves are F+15, R+12, and W+11.

However, I would still think that one more level of monk would serve me better with an extra 10 foot of movement speed (for leap attack), Improved trip (spellcasters), and 10 foot more slowfall (just in case), and would increase my final BaB by 1. Altough I do lose a 2nd 4th 6th and two 7th level spells. I'll have to look over the Law and Strength domains tonight when I get home to see what goodies you get at the 7th spell level.

I'm actually going for the more melee type with some strong spellcasting for backup and self buffs (Bulls Strength, Enlarge Person (making me huge as far as damage is concerned), bless) now go smash things). And as a secondary party healer. In fact he will most likely reserve his healing for himself unless things are dire.

Anyway, any more advice?
Auldar
07-21-06, 08:36 AM Take a look at the Shou Disciple in UE - in 5 PrC levels, you get 2d6 fists, flurry with any martial weapon, 2 bonus feats and full BAB.

If stacking it's levels with monks gets you better fist damage, you take the better of the 2.
Alynn
07-21-06, 08:49 AM All I have to go with are the complete series, the races series and the core. So UE is not an option right now. Also, you mentioned nothing about spell progression... which I get spell progression and increases in unarmed damage in one package.
ck2001wendt
07-21-06, 09:48 AM Improved Natural Attack (Monster's Manual). Moves your unarmed damage up a step (yes, it affects a monk's hands...this has been confirmed in an FAQ). I would also go Monk 2/Cleric 4 for maximum effect.
Alynn
07-21-06, 10:22 AM um CK did you read my first post? INA was already part of the build.

Shouldn't Monk 4 be a true minimum? After all you can't even bypass DR/magic.

The important thing to remember is this character will never use weapons (and won't be able to as a SaF), with only 2 levels of monk to start with, he at most (without monk belt) can do 3d6+STR, with DR 10 being the standard at mid/high levels that averages to .5 damage a hit. With a monks belt 3d8+str or 3.5 average damage. At least Ki Strike (magic) will allow me to bypass some DR even if I do the same amount of damage.

Also, could you give reasons why you would do mo2/Cl4. Numbers and reasons (like why it is important to have the 8th level spells for this character). Thanks.
Piraatje
07-21-06, 11:24 AM *takes a deep breath*

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever take Monk levels over Cleric levels. Never.

If you're worried about beating damage reduction, i urge you to look into the Greater Magic Weapon spell (Cleric level 4). Yes, you can cast this on yourself. Yes, this spell alone offsets any increase in damage you can get from getting fancier unarmed damage dice.

Now that we have this established, get yourself Practiced Spellcaster and buy prayer beads of Karma (DMG). Congratulations, you now have CL 20 at ECL 16 for 10 mins/day (during which, of course, you cast all your boostspells).

Other feats to powerup your monk ehh cleric are Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), so you can cast your Divine Favour, Divine Power etc once per day and use it all day long. If you find this too feat-intensive, at higher levels the use of Quicken Spell is a good enough mimic.

On a secondary note, your partymembers will be gratefull for the opportunity to have a second partybooster to pass out all the desirable Magic vestments, Greater Magic Weapon, Recitation, and healing that comes with a party cleric.
Abulafia
07-21-06, 11:26 AM Monk 2/Cleric 4 is the best entry.

It's always important to lose as few caster levels as possible. Not only do lost caster levels limit the highest-level spells you can cast, they also delay your access to important mid-level spells (as a cleric/monk, you will want to be able to cast Divine Power and Righteous Might as soon as possible).

I wouldn't worry about Ki Strike -- you will probably be enhancing your unarmed attacks with Greater Magic Weapon or an Amulet of Mighty Fists, either of which makes your attacks magic. And in no build are you going to be a monk long enough to acquire the more useful Ki Strike abilities.

If you are really attached to Ki Strike, you might want to check out the Master of the West Wind PrC from Dragon 314 (it has KS:M as a prereq). Full caster progression, undead turning, and monk AC, movement, and damage advancement, but it's a little harder to get into (3rd-level divine spells are a prereq, IIRC).
Alynn
07-21-06, 07:19 PM Hrm... maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. I think it's because normally I play a full blooded cleric for 20 levels. Monk has been the other class that I've liked playing and the fondest memories I had was from a Mo15/Cl5. I think I was going for the same flavor (more monk than cleric) with this Sacred Fist build.

And I most likely wont be getting the amulet, since the Wisdom increasing item takes that slot. I think the only slots I don't have accounted for is one ring, robe, and headgear, and I have to spend the extra cash to put +4 STR with my monks belt just to have some sort of strength adjustment.

So Mo2/Cl4/SaF10/Cl4

Feats:
1) Dodge, Improved Inititive
3) Combat Casting
6) Improved Natural Attack
9) Practiced Spellcaster
12) Weapon Focus
15) Mobility
18) Spring Attack

BaB: +17/+12/+7/+2 (flurry +15/+15/+10/+5/+0)
Saves F:+16 R:+12 W:+12
16th Level cleric for spells per day and CL
12th level monk for unarmed damage

Eh, I'll see how it goes, thanks for your help.
Shado
07-21-06, 07:40 PM And I most likely wont be getting the amulet, since the Wisdom increasing item takes that slot. I think the only slots I don't have accounted for is one ring, robe, and headgear, and I have to spend the extra cash to put +4 STR with my monks belt just to have some sort of strength adjustment.

Ah!

Get a Headband of Perfect Excellence. +6 to STR, DEX & WIS. Opens up your Amulet slot, and lets you save on the Monk Belt. (Kinda pricey though... 180,000gp... not sure if that's changed in 3.5 or not.)
Surreal
07-21-06, 11:16 PM Can you be evil? Ur-priest fits in nicely. Browse around in the first link of my sig and look for the "sacriligious fist".
Alynn
07-22-06, 03:50 AM I'm going with Lawful Neutral myself. We already have a Fi4/Wi4 that is evil (none of the party knows though, hell the only reason I know is that the player told me, funny thing though, he got the palidin to fall by convincing him that this entire villiage needed to die, and even tricked his Detect Evil). This guy plays it well, he always finds ways to be alone when he does the truely horrific evil stuff.

The only problem with the more priest build, is that I need to adjust my character concept, either that or never memorize an offensive spell, as the mantra of his order calls for as little force as is nessicary... Generally he only does subdual damage unless his life really depended on it, and the SaF takes care of the want for weapons. Which gives me tons of money to work on my defenses. Eh, I'm sure we will be up against enough stuff that I will be required to melt someone's face off in the name of the Lord :P.

Hrm... 180K? From my calculations that should be 144K. Actually no, multiple different abilities is multiply the higher cost by 2, so 36000*1.5 + 36000*1.5 + 2*36000, Strength and Dex in uncustomary slot, and wisdom doubled for being multiple abilities. So 180,000 is right.

Although I can drop the price to 144K if I get a robe that does the same. Since it's primary function is multiple abilities.

Hrm... I think I'll try to plan out all my items for 20 level wealth and see what I get.

Thanks again.
Lt_Col_Pilgrim
07-22-06, 11:28 AM There's probably no reason to take 4 levels of cleric later on; why not find PrC w/ full progression that matches your feat selection and harvest extra abilities? Contemplative ... Divine Oracle ... Sacred Exorcist ... Loremaster ... Thaumaturgist ... all would have easy entry (maybe one feat or so) and net you some special abilities on top of full casting progression. BAB may be an issue as some of them have wizard BAB as opposed to Cleric BAB.
Piraatje
07-22-06, 11:47 AM With divine power giving a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, i wouldn't worry about getting a strength item. Personally, when you get your prayer beads, i'd go for a +con item (hitpoints!) and the best ring of protection you can get your hands on.
fearthedwarves
07-22-06, 12:45 PM Here is a fairly expensive solution to the BaB problem

If you have the Compete Adventurer there is a spell called Wraithstrike which changes all you regular melee attacks into touch attacks while still dealing normal damage. This is a level 2 Wiz/Sorc spell; thus using the DMG rules, we can find the cost of a ring of permenant Wraithstrike:

caster level*Spell level*2000*X(Modifer based on spell duration)

In this case it comes out to
3 X 2 X 2000 X 4 = 48k

So for 48k use your target's touch AC as opposed to normal AC! :P
Alynn
07-22-06, 01:08 PM At first when you said go with a different class, I first thought I'd take an xp penalty for multiclassing... Then I realized that cleric would count as my highest class, leaving me able to take 3 levels of anything with no XP penalty, my fourth level which would put me at 20 is the first that would have a penalty. Which isn't all that bad...

Maybe fighter for the extra feats and the BaB and the HP. I'm sure it couldn't hurt at all really.

However, The reason I want to take more cleric is to up my caster level. Even with practiced spellcaster, my spells will only be considered as a caster level 8, 4 more levels of cleric will bring that up to a 12. Sacred Fist increases my spells known, and per day, but not my actual caster level.
Reis
07-22-06, 01:26 PM At first when you said go with a different class, I first thought I'd take an xp penalty for multiclassing... Then I realized that cleric would count as my highest class, leaving me able to take 3 levels of anything with no XP penalty, my fourth level which would put me at 20 is the first that would have a penalty. Which isn't all that bad...

Maybe fighter for the extra feats and the BaB and the HP. I'm sure it couldn't hurt at all really.

take full BAB or full casting prestige class for your last 4 levels...prestige classes never count when determining a XP penalty for multiclassing
Thanatos42
07-22-06, 01:41 PM I'm playing a similiar character (monk/ur-priest/sacred fist) and the biggest problem i'm finding is that my caster level blows. Sure, slay living is cool, if you can beat the baddie's SR. Make sure to take practiced caster early on, and whatever else you can get to boost your caster lvl.

Oh, and there's a contradiction in the Sacred Fist PrC. The table says it's 4/5 casting progression, and the text says it's full casting progression. I think it's the FAQ that says that text trumps table...
Alynn
07-22-06, 01:48 PM Only one PrC so taking another PrC is out of the question.

Hrm... you are right about that... I never noticed that the text says add the Sacred Fist Level... hrm...
prototype00
07-22-06, 02:04 PM In the PHB faq, they say that in discrepancies between the primary source and the secondary source, always choose the primary source, in this case the text. (In the absence of errata of course)

So I guess Sacred fist is a full casting, full Bab class.

Wow.

prototype00

Just checked the Complete Divine errata, no mention of Sacred fist anywhere.
I guess the text does trump the table in this case.
Hanniball
07-22-06, 02:10 PM take full BAB or full casting prestige class for your last 4 levels...prestige classes never count when determining a XP penalty for multiclassing

Why? Clerics get Divine Power...~20 BAB all day long with the right setup, other wise Quicken when neccessary.

Sacred Fist increases my spells known, and per day, but not my actual caster level.

Are you sure about that? I don't have my CD with me, but I'm pretty sure it increases Caster Level just like any other +1 to existing spellcasting class Prcs does. But the prayer bead and Practiced Spellcaster will put you back on par.

Consider Vow of Poverty and Intuitive Attack from BoED. VoP is just sick at mid-levels and your Cleric buffs will keep you goin' strong until epic. Intuitive Attack (IIRC) lets you use your Wis. mod for attack rolls instead of your (likely) lower strength.

So for 48k use your target's touch AC as opposed to normal AC!

Please tell me those calculations are wrong... That's too broken; even for me...

Either way...just my 2 cp
Piraatje
07-22-06, 02:15 PM It's just like an always-active True Strike item: just because you can find a low level spell that does something nice, does not mean a DM will actually allow it.
Reis
07-22-06, 03:10 PM Why? Clerics get Divine Power...~20 BAB all day long with the right setup, other wise Quicken when neccessary.

because if your DM is smart he will begin hammering you with greater dispelling/antimagic/MDJ/reaving dispel the second you start using this tactic
Alynn
07-22-06, 03:17 PM Are you sure about that? I don't have my CD with me, but I'm pretty sure it increases Caster Level just like any other +1 to existing spellcasting class Prcs does. But the prayer bead and Practiced Spellcaster will put you back on par.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new sacred fist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if appliciable) as if the had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class in which he could cast divine spells before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, wild shape ability, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of sacred fist to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines the spells per day accordingly.

The only thing it affects is spells per day and spells known, nothing else. Caster level doesn't change.

Anyway just quickly buying some stuff, I ended up with a 45 AC 40 FF, and 32 touch. 70ft movement, Attack bonus +25/+20/+15/+10 (no str buffs), Flurry at +23/+23/+18/+13/+8. +9 Init... SR 30, still have about 100K to spend not so bad really...
Surreal
07-22-06, 03:18 PM The whole text vs table thing is a long standing argument. Just go with whatever the DM decides.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alynn 07-21-06, 05:01 AM	Having recently procured the entirety of the Complete series books, I found that Sacred Fist to be much to my liking. So I started on my next build that I would like to play. I've determined that I need to take my first levels as a monk, and I need to do this for a minimum of 6 levels to get the feats I want. I know at a minimum I want the spell progression for a 10th level cleric, which means I need a minimum of 2 levels of cleric. So this gives me a choice of Mo6/Cl4, Mo7/Cl3, and Mo8/Cl2. For magical items one of the more important ones is a monk's belt, I add this information to help you help me decide. Ok now for feat selection 1) Improved Inititive, Dodge 3) Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) 6) Improved Natural Attack 9) Combat Casting for 12,15 and 18 I am undecided, but most likely it will involve 2 feats for mobility and spring attack, and the last may be Practiced Spellcaster, but largely my last feat selection isn't set in stone. Now looking at the build, it basically comes down to, are the extra spells and levels worth the loss of the monk abilities. From what I have come up with myself, the spellpower difference between a 12th and a 14th level cleric is one first level, 1 third level, 1 fifth level and 2+1 sixth level spell (without bonus spells for high wis) for a trade off of wholeness of body, and 40' slow fall, and a die increase on unarmed damage. However, once I get my hands on the monks belt, my final unarmed damage will still be the same, (damage between a 21st level monk and a 23rd level monk) so in the end the loss of unarmed damage dice isn't a huge deal as it will be the same in the long run. However, if I don't get my hands on a monks belt then that will be a factor. I've just been running around in circles in my mind trying to figure out what the best tradeoff is and since the people that frequent this board are probably much better at optimizing than I am, I come to you for advice. Thanks
Boshi 07-21-06, 05:09 AM	If you found Sacred Fist much to your liking why aren't you taking that PrC? Dive into that PrC at the lowest possible level and you'll do MUCH MUCH MUCH better.
Alynn 07-21-06, 05:25 AM	I am, I'm talking about the first 10 levels BEFORE I can take the PrC. I'm aware you can take it early, but doing so really fudges up my unarmed damage in the long run, so I need to maximize my monk levels.
Ithandor 07-21-06, 06:02 AM	"Unarmed Damage: A Sacred Fist's class levels stack with his Monk levels for the purpose of determining his unarmed damage." So if you enter early you should be alright for unarmed damage. You can up your base unarmed damage too in a variety of ways; I'd recommend taking a look at mean_liar's thread on Monks in the Library. For Sacred Fist both Monk4/Cleric2 and Monk2/Cleric4 are good ways to enter. Clerical spellcasting is very strong, so it's generally better to try and lose as little of it as possible. If you take Monk2/Cleric4 then Practiced Spellcaster will entirely make up for your loss of caster level from the 2 levels in Monk and the loss in Sacred Fist. Hope some of this helps! Ithandor
Alynn 07-21-06, 07:47 AM	So if you enter early you should be alright for unarmed damage. You can up your base unarmed damage too in a variety of ways; I'd recommend taking a look at mean_liar's thread on Monks in the Library. For Sacred Fist both Monk4/Cleric2 and Monk2/Cleric4 are good ways to enter. Clerical spellcasting is very strong, so it's generally better to try and lose as little of it as possible. If you take Monk2/Cleric4 then Practiced Spellcaster will entirely make up for your loss of caster level from the 2 levels in Monk and the loss in Sacred Fist. Hope some of this helps! Ithandor What I meant about my unarmed damage I meant in the long run, that at the very least I need 5 monk levels to max out my unarmed damage (with monks belt) anything less is a nogo for me. Although the point of just taking one level of cleric and then start on the PrC does make a bit of sense. I'm now leaning a bit towards Mo5/Cl1 I'll switch INA and Combat casting (taking CC at 6th and INA at 9th) which with a monks belt will put me at 20th level for unarmed damage, and 10th level for defense bonus. by the time I finish the 10 levels of SaF that will put me at 9th level for spells per day and CL, allowing me to put the last 4 levels into cleric. With the monks belt this will make me a grand total of 20th level monk for unarmed damage(maxed) 4d8+strength, 10th level monk for everything else, and a 13th level cleric for spells per day, and a 5th level cleric for everything else. My flurry will be at +15/+15/+10/+5/+0. With practiced spellcaster I'm considered a 17th level cleric for CL dependant effects. And saves are F+15, R+12, and W+11. However, I would still think that one more level of monk would serve me better with an extra 10 foot of movement speed (for leap attack), Improved trip (spellcasters), and 10 foot more slowfall (just in case), and would increase my final BaB by 1. Altough I do lose a 2nd 4th 6th and two 7th level spells. I'll have to look over the Law and Strength domains tonight when I get home to see what goodies you get at the 7th spell level. I'm actually going for the more melee type with some strong spellcasting for backup and self buffs (Bulls Strength, Enlarge Person (making me huge as far as damage is concerned), bless) now go smash things). And as a secondary party healer. In fact he will most likely reserve his healing for himself unless things are dire. Anyway, any more advice?
Auldar 07-21-06, 08:36 AM	Take a look at the Shou Disciple in UE - in 5 PrC levels, you get 2d6 fists, flurry with any martial weapon, 2 bonus feats and full BAB. If stacking it's levels with monks gets you better fist damage, you take the better of the 2.
Alynn 07-21-06, 08:49 AM	All I have to go with are the complete series, the races series and the core. So UE is not an option right now. Also, you mentioned nothing about spell progression... which I get spell progression and increases in unarmed damage in one package.
ck2001wendt 07-21-06, 09:48 AM	Improved Natural Attack (Monster's Manual). Moves your unarmed damage up a step (yes, it affects a monk's hands...this has been confirmed in an FAQ). I would also go Monk 2/Cleric 4 for maximum effect.
Alynn 07-21-06, 10:22 AM	um CK did you read my first post? INA was already part of the build. Shouldn't Monk 4 be a true minimum? After all you can't even bypass DR/magic. The important thing to remember is this character will never use weapons (and won't be able to as a SaF), with only 2 levels of monk to start with, he at most (without monk belt) can do 3d6+STR, with DR 10 being the standard at mid/high levels that averages to .5 damage a hit. With a monks belt 3d8+str or 3.5 average damage. At least Ki Strike (magic) will allow me to bypass some DR even if I do the same amount of damage. Also, could you give reasons why you would do mo2/Cl4. Numbers and reasons (like why it is important to have the 8th level spells for this character). Thanks.
Piraatje 07-21-06, 11:24 AM	takes a deep breath Never, ever, ever, ever, ever take Monk levels over Cleric levels. Never. If you're worried about beating damage reduction, i urge you to look into the Greater Magic Weapon spell (Cleric level 4). Yes, you can cast this on yourself. Yes, this spell alone offsets any increase in damage you can get from getting fancier unarmed damage dice. Now that we have this established, get yourself Practiced Spellcaster and buy prayer beads of Karma (DMG). Congratulations, you now have CL 20 at ECL 16 for 10 mins/day (during which, of course, you cast all your boostspells). Other feats to powerup your monk ehh cleric are Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), so you can cast your Divine Favour, Divine Power etc once per day and use it all day long. If you find this too feat-intensive, at higher levels the use of Quicken Spell is a good enough mimic. On a secondary note, your partymembers will be gratefull for the opportunity to have a second partybooster to pass out all the desirable Magic vestments, Greater Magic Weapon, Recitation, and healing that comes with a party cleric.
Abulafia 07-21-06, 11:26 AM	Monk 2/Cleric 4 is the best entry. It's always important to lose as few caster levels as possible. Not only do lost caster levels limit the highest-level spells you can cast, they also delay your access to important mid-level spells (as a cleric/monk, you will want to be able to cast Divine Power and Righteous Might as soon as possible). I wouldn't worry about Ki Strike -- you will probably be enhancing your unarmed attacks with Greater Magic Weapon or an Amulet of Mighty Fists, either of which makes your attacks magic. And in no build are you going to be a monk long enough to acquire the more useful Ki Strike abilities. If you are really attached to Ki Strike, you might want to check out the Master of the West Wind PrC from Dragon 314 (it has KS:M as a prereq). Full caster progression, undead turning, and monk AC, movement, and damage advancement, but it's a little harder to get into (3rd-level divine spells are a prereq, IIRC).
Alynn 07-21-06, 07:19 PM	Hrm... maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. I think it's because normally I play a full blooded cleric for 20 levels. Monk has been the other class that I've liked playing and the fondest memories I had was from a Mo15/Cl5. I think I was going for the same flavor (more monk than cleric) with this Sacred Fist build. And I most likely wont be getting the amulet, since the Wisdom increasing item takes that slot. I think the only slots I don't have accounted for is one ring, robe, and headgear, and I have to spend the extra cash to put +4 STR with my monks belt just to have some sort of strength adjustment. So Mo2/Cl4/SaF10/Cl4 Feats: 1) Dodge, Improved Inititive 3) Combat Casting 6) Improved Natural Attack 9) Practiced Spellcaster 12) Weapon Focus 15) Mobility 18) Spring Attack BaB: +17/+12/+7/+2 (flurry +15/+15/+10/+5/+0) Saves F:+16 R:+12 W:+12 16th Level cleric for spells per day and CL 12th level monk for unarmed damage Eh, I'll see how it goes, thanks for your help.
Shado 07-21-06, 07:40 PM	And I most likely wont be getting the amulet, since the Wisdom increasing item takes that slot. I think the only slots I don't have accounted for is one ring, robe, and headgear, and I have to spend the extra cash to put +4 STR with my monks belt just to have some sort of strength adjustment. Ah! Get a Headband of Perfect Excellence. +6 to STR, DEX & WIS. Opens up your Amulet slot, and lets you save on the Monk Belt. (Kinda pricey though... 180,000gp... not sure if that's changed in 3.5 or not.)
Surreal 07-21-06, 11:16 PM	Can you be evil? Ur-priest fits in nicely. Browse around in the first link of my sig and look for the "sacriligious fist".
Alynn 07-22-06, 03:50 AM	I'm going with Lawful Neutral myself. We already have a Fi4/Wi4 that is evil (none of the party knows though, hell the only reason I know is that the player told me, funny thing though, he got the palidin to fall by convincing him that this entire villiage needed to die, and even tricked his Detect Evil). This guy plays it well, he always finds ways to be alone when he does the truely horrific evil stuff. The only problem with the more priest build, is that I need to adjust my character concept, either that or never memorize an offensive spell, as the mantra of his order calls for as little force as is nessicary... Generally he only does subdual damage unless his life really depended on it, and the SaF takes care of the want for weapons. Which gives me tons of money to work on my defenses. Eh, I'm sure we will be up against enough stuff that I will be required to melt someone's face off in the name of the Lord :P. Hrm... 180K? From my calculations that should be 144K. Actually no, multiple different abilities is multiply the higher cost by 2, so 360001.5 + 360001.5 + 2*36000, Strength and Dex in uncustomary slot, and wisdom doubled for being multiple abilities. So 180,000 is right. Although I can drop the price to 144K if I get a robe that does the same. Since it's primary function is multiple abilities. Hrm... I think I'll try to plan out all my items for 20 level wealth and see what I get. Thanks again.
Lt_Col_Pilgrim 07-22-06, 11:28 AM	There's probably no reason to take 4 levels of cleric later on; why not find PrC w/ full progression that matches your feat selection and harvest extra abilities? Contemplative ... Divine Oracle ... Sacred Exorcist ... Loremaster ... Thaumaturgist ... all would have easy entry (maybe one feat or so) and net you some special abilities on top of full casting progression. BAB may be an issue as some of them have wizard BAB as opposed to Cleric BAB.
Piraatje 07-22-06, 11:47 AM	With divine power giving a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, i wouldn't worry about getting a strength item. Personally, when you get your prayer beads, i'd go for a +con item (hitpoints!) and the best ring of protection you can get your hands on.
fearthedwarves 07-22-06, 12:45 PM	Here is a fairly expensive solution to the BaB problem If you have the Compete Adventurer there is a spell called Wraithstrike which changes all you regular melee attacks into touch attacks while still dealing normal damage. This is a level 2 Wiz/Sorc spell; thus using the DMG rules, we can find the cost of a ring of permenant Wraithstrike: caster levelSpell level2000*X(Modifer based on spell duration) In this case it comes out to 3 X 2 X 2000 X 4 = 48k So for 48k use your target's touch AC as opposed to normal AC! :P
Alynn 07-22-06, 01:08 PM	At first when you said go with a different class, I first thought I'd take an xp penalty for multiclassing... Then I realized that cleric would count as my highest class, leaving me able to take 3 levels of anything with no XP penalty, my fourth level which would put me at 20 is the first that would have a penalty. Which isn't all that bad... Maybe fighter for the extra feats and the BaB and the HP. I'm sure it couldn't hurt at all really. However, The reason I want to take more cleric is to up my caster level. Even with practiced spellcaster, my spells will only be considered as a caster level 8, 4 more levels of cleric will bring that up to a 12. Sacred Fist increases my spells known, and per day, but not my actual caster level.
Reis 07-22-06, 01:26 PM	At first when you said go with a different class, I first thought I'd take an xp penalty for multiclassing... Then I realized that cleric would count as my highest class, leaving me able to take 3 levels of anything with no XP penalty, my fourth level which would put me at 20 is the first that would have a penalty. Which isn't all that bad... Maybe fighter for the extra feats and the BaB and the HP. I'm sure it couldn't hurt at all really. take full BAB or full casting prestige class for your last 4 levels...prestige classes never count when determining a XP penalty for multiclassing
Thanatos42 07-22-06, 01:41 PM	I'm playing a similiar character (monk/ur-priest/sacred fist) and the biggest problem i'm finding is that my caster level blows. Sure, slay living is cool, if you can beat the baddie's SR. Make sure to take practiced caster early on, and whatever else you can get to boost your caster lvl. Oh, and there's a contradiction in the Sacred Fist PrC. The table says it's 4/5 casting progression, and the text says it's full casting progression. I think it's the FAQ that says that text trumps table...
Alynn 07-22-06, 01:48 PM	Only one PrC so taking another PrC is out of the question. Hrm... you are right about that... I never noticed that the text says add the Sacred Fist Level... hrm...
prototype00 07-22-06, 02:04 PM	In the PHB faq, they say that in discrepancies between the primary source and the secondary source, always choose the primary source, in this case the text. (In the absence of errata of course) So I guess Sacred fist is a full casting, full Bab class. Wow. prototype00 Just checked the Complete Divine errata, no mention of Sacred fist anywhere. I guess the text does trump the table in this case.
Hanniball 07-22-06, 02:10 PM	take full BAB or full casting prestige class for your last 4 levels...prestige classes never count when determining a XP penalty for multiclassing Why? Clerics get Divine Power...~20 BAB all day long with the right setup, other wise Quicken when neccessary. Sacred Fist increases my spells known, and per day, but not my actual caster level. Are you sure about that? I don't have my CD with me, but I'm pretty sure it increases Caster Level just like any other +1 to existing spellcasting class Prcs does. But the prayer bead and Practiced Spellcaster will put you back on par. Consider Vow of Poverty and Intuitive Attack from BoED. VoP is just sick at mid-levels and your Cleric buffs will keep you goin' strong until epic. Intuitive Attack (IIRC) lets you use your Wis. mod for attack rolls instead of your (likely) lower strength. So for 48k use your target's touch AC as opposed to normal AC! Please tell me those calculations are wrong... That's too broken; even for me... Either way...just my 2 cp
Piraatje 07-22-06, 02:15 PM	It's just like an always-active True Strike item: just because you can find a low level spell that does something nice, does not mean a DM will actually allow it.
Reis 07-22-06, 03:10 PM	Why? Clerics get Divine Power...~20 BAB all day long with the right setup, other wise Quicken when neccessary. because if your DM is smart he will begin hammering you with greater dispelling/antimagic/MDJ/reaving dispel the second you start using this tactic
Alynn 07-22-06, 03:17 PM	Are you sure about that? I don't have my CD with me, but I'm pretty sure it increases Caster Level just like any other +1 to existing spellcasting class Prcs does. But the prayer bead and Practiced Spellcaster will put you back on par. Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new sacred fist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if appliciable) as if the had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class in which he could cast divine spells before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, wild shape ability, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of sacred fist to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines the spells per day accordingly. The only thing it affects is spells per day and spells known, nothing else. Caster level doesn't change. Anyway just quickly buying some stuff, I ended up with a 45 AC 40 FF, and 32 touch. 70ft movement, Attack bonus +25/+20/+15/+10 (no str buffs), Flurry at +23/+23/+18/+13/+8. +9 Init... SR 30, still have about 100K to spend not so bad really...
Surreal 07-22-06, 03:18 PM	The whole text vs table thing is a long standing argument. Just go with whatever the DM decides.