Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ringmereth 02-03-05, 09:10 PM	I'm sure this has been done before, but since the search function is down and I don't feel like searching page after page of topics, I figured I'd just post a new topic. I got a copy Complete Adventurer a couple days ago, and while I haven't exactly been thrilled with the quality, I did find a few interesting gems. Among these is the Tempest, a TWF-focused class with a useful ability that negates all attack penalties for TWF when fighting with light weapons. So, here are a few builds I've come up with that combine Tempest and Dervish to produce very nice A Thousand Cuts attacks. 1st: Elf Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 10/Tempest 5. With a 36 Dex, Weapon Finesse, and a pair of +5 Speed Scimitars, you get this for your ATC: +44/44/44/39/39/34/34/29/29 (main hand) and +44/44/44/39/39/34/34 (off-hand). 16 attacks at a fairly high bonus-not bad. With a Str of 10, damage per hit is 1d6+10 if Dervish Dancing (a reasonable assumption). If all attacks hit, you get a total damage of 16d6+160, which averages out to 216 damage. 2nd: Thri-Kreen Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 10/Tempest 3. While this build gives an extra 2 attacks with multi-weapon fighting, the loss of two Tempest levels hurts a bit. The extra Dex, Str, and natural armor bonuses help make up for it, though. The ATC looks like this: +40/40/40/35/35/30/30/25/25 (main hand) and +40/40/40/35/35/30/30 (3 off-hands). This build gets a total of 30d6+300 damage if dancing, averaging 405 damage. That's all I've done so far, but I'm sure there are lots of better builds out there. Does anyone have ideas on how to improve the number of attacks and attack bonuses for the best average damage per Thousand Cuts?
nachtmeister 02-04-05, 07:24 AM	what about Scout 5 Fighter 2 Dervish 10 Tempest 3 that gives +2d6 per hit while dancing (take a race with reach, f.e. Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur or just beeing enlarged )
SwollenOstrich 02-04-05, 01:14 PM	Please explain how you got to the 36 dex and 16 attacks per round. For the elf: I would take 1 level of ranger to get the favored enemy, track, and twf, then take 3 lev of squashbuckler to get the weapon finesse and +int to dam, then 1 fighter, then the rest of your progression.
D1Tremere 02-04-05, 01:44 PM	"For the elf: I would take 1 level of ranger to get the favored enemy, track, and twf, then take 3 lev of squashbuckler to get the weapon finesse and +int to dam, then 1 fighter, then the rest of your progression." You don't get TWF untill the second level of ranger in 3.5 I wouldn't bother with ranger at all, I'd go Fighter 6/Tempest 5/Dervish10 or Fighter 5/Dervish 1/Tempest 5/then back to Dervish for the next 9. And if you can get the DM to let you use the Exoticist from dragon magazine (Alt. fighter. Same except he gets 4 exotic weapons instead of all martial, and Tumble as a class skill) then make use of the Broadblade shortsword from the complete adventurer (Dodge bonuses stack, so two broadblade shortswords means +4 extra to AC when fighting defensively or using combat expertise)
maven50312 02-04-05, 01:53 PM	It's usually considered that a fighter level where you don't get a bonus feat is a waste of a level. fighter 5/tempest 5/dervish 10 is a nice basic build, but that 5th level of Fighter isn't giving you much. It'd probably much better to go Barbarian1/Fighter4/Tempest5/Dervish10, that way you get fast movement, better starting skill points, better HD, AND rage that I think you can use during your Dervish dance. Just my thoughts.
Ringmereth 02-04-05, 05:37 PM	Please explain how you got to the 36 dex and 16 attacks per round. Gladly. 18 starting Dex +2 racial +5 levels + 6 enhancement +5 inherant = 36 Dex. As for the 16 attacks per round, you start with 4 main hand attacks and 3 off hand (TWF, ITWF, and GTWF). A Thousand Cuts multiplies the number of attacks you get, so you're up to 8 main hand and 6 off hand. Since both weapons have the Speed enhancement, you get an extra attack with each hand, for a total of 8+6+2=16 attacks. I'm considering Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1, although Rage isn't usable with Dervish Dance. The extra HD and skills might give a small edge. I also like the idea of using Swashbuckler, although I'm not sure if I could get enough feats to take Dervish at 6th level. Maybe Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 3?
sma 02-04-05, 09:37 PM	Small gripe. Since Speed weapons donŽt add twice to attacks per turn youŽd be at 15 attacks.
MattHawk 02-04-05, 09:45 PM	If you're willing to loose a level of Tempest and delay entry to Dervish a little, I am really liking my Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Dervish 10 - It's level 7 right now, with all the non-dervish levels and 1 Dervish level. It's working quite well - I'm the party's scout, getting Hide and Move Silently from Ranger, and I've got enough skill ranks to get a ton of acrobatic-type skills pumped up due to the high int (to boost Swashbuckler damage). Pretty much keeping up with the Paladin as far as damage dealing at this point, albeit with a lower AC. I'm planning on adding in, at some point, two levels of Shadow Dancer, for Uncanny Dodge, Evasion (crazy high reflex saves on this build - already up to 14 at level 7), and Hide In Plain Sight (I am the party's scout, after all :) ). Also, a level of Barbarian for movement (later in the build, once I've got enough attacks that I need it to get them all in during the dance) and another level of Fighter to squeeze in an additional feat, somewhat earlier. The build delays getting full effect from Dervish a bit, but the other cool abilites are worth it IMHO.
MattHawk 02-04-05, 09:47 PM	Small gripe. Since Speed weapons donŽt add twice to attacks per turn youŽd be at 15 attacks. I thought speed weapons gave an additional attack with the weapon with Speed; hence, if both of them had it both get the extra attack. It may take Haste to craft, but that doesn't mean it's mechanically identical.
AviLazar 02-05-05, 02:27 AM	I thought speed weapons gave an additional attack with the weapon with Speed; hence, if both of them had it both get the extra attack. It may take Haste to craft, but that doesn't mean it's mechanically identical. Haste affects a character only once :mad: If I may suggest - haste is a +3 power, make that other scimitar say a Flaming, Acidic, plus something else scimitar...then the scimitar will not only make their food spicy hot but it will just be hot all together ;)
Ascian 02-05-05, 04:58 AM	Haste affects a character only once Speed is not the same thing as Haste. RAW, a weapon of Speed grants an additional attack with that weapon of Speed. Two weapons of Speed give two attacks, one for each weapon of speed. I've seen a few threads about getting the most attacks in my day, and I remember someone talking about a Thri-Kreen taking Fang of Lolth to get two more limbs, wielding six weapons of speed, and.. just insane. I remember people claiming to get 50+ attacks in a round. NaCl as needed.
Dain 02-05-05, 05:40 AM	Gladly. 18 starting Dex +2 racial +5 levels + 6 enhancement +5 inherant = 36 Dex. As for the 16 attacks per round, you start with 4 main hand attacks and 3 off hand (TWF, ITWF, and GTWF). A Thousand Cuts multiplies the number of attacks you get, so you're up to 8 main hand and 6 off hand. Since both weapons have the Speed enhancement, you get an extra attack with each hand, for a total of 8+6+2=16 attacks. I'm considering Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1, although Rage isn't usable with Dervish Dance. The extra HD and skills might give a small edge. I also like the idea of using Swashbuckler, although I'm not sure if I could get enough feats to take Dervish at 6th level. Maybe Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 3? I don't really get the whole dex-based thing. Wouldn't it be a lot more useful relying on Strength and deal tons and tons of damage while hitting? You only need e dexterity of 19 to be an effective TWF'er, easily achivable in the higher levels.
Alratan 02-05-05, 06:29 AM	I still maintain that a Two-headed non-psionic thri-keen makes the best dervish, thanks to the Superior Multiweapon fighting ability, which allows it to wield weapons in its secondary hands as if they were in its primary hand i.e. full iterative attacks with no penalty. Admitedly, this build is much better if you are using LA buyback.
sma 02-05-05, 07:18 AM	Speed is not the same thing as Haste. RAW, a weapon of Speed grants an additional attack with that weapon of Speed. Two weapons of Speed give two attacks, one for each weapon of speed. I've seen a few threads about getting the most attacks in my day, and I remember someone talking about a Thri-Kreen taking Fang of Lolth to get two more limbs, wielding six weapons of speed, and.. just insane. I remember people claiming to get 50+ attacks in a round. NaCl as needed. I was going off, the no cumulative effects part in the speed description, but I see that a case can could be made for both interpretations.
Alratan 02-05-05, 08:01 AM	Non-Psionic Two-Headed Thri'keen (LA +3) Cobra Strike Monk 2/Dervish 10/Blade Dancer 1(4) 1 Monstrous Humanoid Magical Training (regional, but thri'keen region just north of Halruaa, so easy blag) 2 Monstrous Humanoid 3 Monstrous Humanoid Weapon Focus [Gythka) 4 Monstrous Humanoid 5 Cobra Strike Monk Dodge 6 Cobra Strike Monk Combat Expertise, Mobility 7 Dervish 8 Dervish 9 Dervish Monastic Training [Gythka] 10 Dervish 11 Dervish 12 Dervish feat 13 Dervish 14 Dervish 15 Dervish feat 16 Dervish 17 Blade Dancer If using LA buyback 18 Blade Dancer feat 19 Blade Dancer 20 Blade Dancer Notable for having speed 80 ft. (95 if using LA buyback) You have to come up with an excuse for why you have a regional feat which you don't qualify for, but PGtF explicitly makes provision for this. In a normal full attack, it may make 17 attacks with its Gythkas and 1 bite. That's 36 attacks with 1000 cuts. It may be possible to squeeze fang of Lolth in there at the end to replace the last three levels post LA buyback, for another 8 attacks, for a total of 52 using 1000 cuts.
Cellidin 02-05-05, 08:16 AM	why 2 levels of fighter? whats la buyback?
lostone 02-05-05, 08:35 AM	I still maintain that a Two-headed non-psionic thri-keen makes the best dervish, thanks to the Superior Multiweapon fighting ability, which allows it to wield weapons in its secondary hands as if they were in its primary hand i.e. full iterative attacks with no penalty. Admitedly, this build is much better if you are using LA buyback.They get full iterative attacks with the other hands? Where is this stated at?
scrollreader 02-05-05, 08:45 AM	People forget all about the poor Lasher. :P Maximum Number of attacks I've seen is a Thri-keen lasher/Dervish. Multiweapon chain, along with the bonus attack from lasher, and the thousand cuts. Whips are slashing weapos too! Also, the reach of the whip has some nice synergy with the dervish dance.
Psifon 02-05-05, 09:41 AM	Dont' forget to add the Wounding property to all your weapons! Thats -16 to Con! Who needs strenght damage, when you can just make them bleed to death in one round? Of course, it's uselless against some creatures, but hell on wheels against others.
lostone 02-05-05, 10:17 AM	That's potential -16, you won't always hit with every attack. But yes, within a few rounds most enemies will be dead.
Aramil Liadon 02-05-05, 10:39 AM	Take two enfeebling (BoED) wounding scimitars and improved crit. Grab prismatic burst (MiniHB) later on. Lot's of crits with awesome consequences :D Aramil
lostone 02-05-05, 10:45 AM	Where is Enfeebling? I don't recall there being any magical weapon abilities in BoED. Edit: Nevermind, found it. Page 113
Alratan 02-05-05, 10:46 AM	They get full iterative attacks with the other hands? Where is this stated at? In Savage Species. Superior Multiweapon Fighting (Ex): ..., a multiheaded creature has no penalty on attack rolls for attacking with multiple weapons, and the number of attacks and damage bonus for each weapon is calculated as though the weapon were held in a primary hand. LA buyback is a campaign option from Unearthed Arcana that allows you to spend experience to reduce your LA.
lostone 02-05-05, 10:48 AM	Thanks! I'm assuming that carried over to 3.5, anyone know for sure? IIRC Savage Species was one of those interim books during the 3.0 - 3.5 crossover and isn't fully 3.5 rules. Edit: Oh that's just sick...now I know why people were so terrified of Anthropomorphic Squids, I was just thinking they get one extra attack at full BAB with each "off" hand, but this would give them 32 attacks if their BAB is 20. 8 limbs each hitting at +20/+15/+10/+5. That just doesn't look right to me.
Alratan 02-05-05, 10:53 AM	Thanks! I'm assuming that carried over to 3.5, anyone know for sure? IIRC Savage Species was one of those interim books during the 3.0 - 3.5 crossover and isn't fully 3.5 rules. It's not a 3.5 book, but the multi-headed template was not modified in the 3.5 update document. Edit: Oh that's just sick...now I know why people were so terrified of Anthropomorphic Squids, I was just thinking they get one extra attack at full BAB with each "off" hand, but this would give them 32 attacks if their BAB is 20. 8 limbs each hitting at +20/+15/+10/+5. That just doesn't look right to me. This would only be possible for a multi-headed anthropomorphic squid using the weapon enhancment which means you don't need opposable thumbs.
lostone 02-05-05, 11:03 AM	This would only be possible for a multi-headed anthropomorphic squid using the weapon enhancment which means you don't need opposable thumbs.I thought part of being anthropomorphic meant you had human-like hands including thumbs. But what if that anthropomorphic multi-headed squid took a levels of monk? :P
Alratan 02-05-05, 11:11 AM	If you read the anthropomorphic template carefully, it says that all anthropomorphic creature gains hands. It also says that two of an octopus man's eight limbs become feet - and that the octopus man retains the rest of its natural attacks - for an octopus, these are tentacles. I would say an octopus man has two feat, two hands, and four tentacles as the best compromise between these rules.
Angrillori 02-05-05, 11:34 AM	Just a quick question: Is Fang of Lloth 3.5, or strictly 3.0?
Alratan 02-05-05, 11:42 AM	It's not been updated to 3.5, so you can just use the 3.0 version. Remember that an anthro-squid can't breath out of water.
PhaedrusXY 02-05-05, 11:50 AM	I don't really get the whole dex-based thing. Wouldn't it be a lot more useful relying on Strength and deal tons and tons of damage while hitting? You only need e dexterity of 19 to be an effective TWF'er, easily achivable in the higher levels.With Swashbuckler 3, you get Weapon Finesse for free and Int to damage. You can then use Str as a dump stat and pump Int and Dex. Dex adds to both attacks and AC, and many consider it to be superior to Str as a stat.
ancalimohtar 02-05-05, 12:20 PM	Just a quick question: Is Fang of Lloth 3.5, or strictly 3.0? People operate with different guidelines; personally, if something in the old class handbooks (Sword and Fist, Song and Silence, etc.) was not reprinted in any of the 3.5 books, I consider it outdated and not legal for 3.5. I don't think it's an official ruling, but a lot of other people go by this rule of thumb.
lostone 02-05-05, 01:43 PM	It's strictly a DM call when no update is available. In my games we go off of how easily it would update to 3.5. Some classes that didn't get updates need very little work, if any and play just fine as written.
SwollenOstrich 02-05-05, 03:39 PM	People forget all about the poor Lasher. :P Maximum Number of attacks I've seen is a Thri-keen lasher/Dervish. Multiweapon chain, along with the bonus attack from lasher, and the thousand cuts. Whips are slashing weapos too! Also, the reach of the whip has some nice synergy with the dervish dance. Lasher is a 3.0 PrC. Most GMs I know would not allow 3.0 material to be mixed with 3.5, and rightly so.
scrollreader 02-05-05, 03:59 PM	Most DMs freely allowed 3.0 PrCs, until a book came out updating the class. IE, until CAdv, if you wanted to play a Thief Acrobat most DMs would allow it. There's nothing overpowered about the lasher. Mathematically, a tempest is probably a more solid build and gets more damage per round than the lasher. Lasher is just one of those nifty classes that's both interesting, and not gimped (even if it's not crazy-powerful). Be a shame not to be able to use it, because of some crazy DM veto. If you were a DM, what about the Lasher do you not think is balanced for 3.5?
lostone 02-06-05, 07:27 AM	Some 3.0 Prestige Classes don't need any kind of updating and so they might not have gotten one. I think Lasher is one of those that works without any tweaks, and it was never uber-powerful in the first place, so why not allow it in 3.5? Are you afraid of the balance issues involved with a 1d6 whip dagger? :P
Dain 02-06-05, 08:01 AM	With Swashbuckler 3, you get Weapon Finesse for free and Int to damage. You can then use Str as a dump stat and pump Int and Dex. Dex adds to both attacks and AC, and many consider it to be superior to Str as a stat. Pumping both Dexterity (to hit) and Intelligence (damage) seems stupid when you can pump Strength (to hit and damage). 22 dexterity + Mithral Shirt gives a reasonable AC anyway.
PhaedrusXY 02-06-05, 08:15 AM	Pumping both Dexterity (to hit) and Intelligence (damage) seems stupid when you can pump Strength (to hit and damage). 22 dexterity + Mithral Shirt gives a reasonable AC anyway.All Str does is affect your attacks. Intelligence gives you more skill points, and you can get it to AC also, with the right feat/class combos.
lostone 02-06-05, 08:18 AM	And that means you can use Str as a dump stat, one less stat to worry about raising.
TAG 02-06-05, 12:37 PM	It's like this... You already need a High Dex, and you're using Finessable weapons, so you're getting your bonus to hit with dex. Which means half of Strength's advantages is moot now anyway. So, would you rather increase strength to get your donus damage and the only other tangible benefit be an increased load capacity, or Intellegence which will give you bonus skill points and bonuses to all the Int Skills... Not mentioning all the fun stuff you can do with certain feat and class combos (Duelist 1 still gives you Int Bonus to AC, right?)
Aricandor 02-06-05, 01:56 PM	Indeed it does, but no more than 1 point per Duelist level.
AviLazar 02-06-05, 11:49 PM	Where is Speed located?
lostone 02-07-05, 02:59 PM	Speed is in the DMG and SRD.
Lionhearted 02-10-05, 01:48 PM	Speed is not the same thing as Haste. RAW, a weapon of Speed grants an additional attack with that weapon of Speed. Two weapons of Speed give two attacks, one for each weapon of speed. I've seen a few threads about getting the most attacks in my day, and I remember someone talking about a Thri-Kreen taking Fang of Lolth to get two more limbs, wielding six weapons of speed, and.. just insane. I remember people claiming to get 50+ attacks in a round. NaCl as needed. hah :twitch: hah Žhah :D MWUAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAH :evillaugh combination above + permanent enlarge + permanent girallon blessing 6+6= 12 arms :D 12 weapons of speed 24 attacks plus ordinary attacks lvl 21 matters not which class perfect multiweapon fighting 12x4= 48 attacks +12 attacks= 60 attacks ;)
SwollenOstrich 02-10-05, 08:37 PM	What book is the Duelist class from?
PhaedrusXY 02-10-05, 08:56 PM	What book is the Duelist class from?The 3.5 DMG. It's also in the SRD.