Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ad Infinitum 08-06-05, 10:52 PM	I'd been wondering what would make the best Vow of Poverty gestalt character. Combining the two best VoP classes (Druid and Monk) *wouldn't work. Thanks. So, moving on to:* I'd also been thinking of something like a Monk/Ranger, getting the two-weapon fighting style, better HD and more skill points, and full BAB. And what prestige classes would you choose?
Aramas 08-06-05, 10:56 PM	Can't be Monk / Druid because Monk requires Lawful alignment, Druid requires Neutral alignment, and Exalted requires Good.
Ad Infinitum 08-06-05, 11:02 PM	<doh>
allenchan 08-06-05, 11:45 PM	Personally Id ditch Monk and stay with Druid. Druid 20 on one side, fighter, ninja (wis to ac), soldier of light (awesomely uber NG exaltedish class), anointed knight on the other side.
Caelic 08-06-05, 11:51 PM	Here's a thought: why not Druid 20 on one side, and some combination of Warshaper, Master of Many Forms, and Nature's Warrior on the other?
Nifft 08-06-05, 11:57 PM	Druid20/Rogue20 would be nifty. -- N
allenchan 08-07-05, 12:05 AM	Druid20/Rogue20 would be nifty. -- N Nifty isnt best. The OP was asking for best. Something that doesnt make your BAB or HD better, and doesnt even give you 9th level spells... i wouldnt call that good, much less best.
darkone7141981 08-07-05, 12:25 AM	I had the beginnings of this idea a while back when I first read BoED. I was originally making this for a normal character (not gestalt), but the basic idea holds true with gestalt too. We are restricted to LG alignment, so certain classes are out. It would help to know what race you wanted, as this has an influence on the PrCs avaliable too. I am just going to make some suggestions, noting race when necessary. *First of all, let me suggest you choose one of the variant Monk fighting styles from Unearthed Arcana, since it gives you a couple of nice bonuses. My personal favorite is the Cobra Strike style (+2 Escape Artist, bonus feats are Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, and your bonus from the Dodge feat becomes +2 if you have 9 ranks in Escape Artist once you reach level 6). **Second, be sure to take advantage of the use of Flaws. The additional two Feats at first level really make alot of things better if well chosen. Cloistered Cleric 1 (from Unearthed Arcana) is going to be worth it for a very specific reason - Fate domain (Uncanny Dodge). For your second domain Luck (one reroll each day) or Renewal (from Forgotten Realms - "If you fall below 0 Hit Points, you regain anumber of hit points equal to 1d8 + your Cha modifier (SU) once per day). The basic spellcasting should help with healing (yourself or others), you get the Knowledge domain for free, 6 skill points, and Turn Undead which opens up the doors for some cool Divine Feats. Paladin 2 or 3 is worth it. With VoP your Charisma can be pretty damn high (if you make it), so the Divine Grace and Lay on Hands are worth it. You will also get d10 Hit Dice and Good BAB. See if your DM will allow the feat Ascetic Knight, since this will help to make the Smite Evil ability better and (if the DM rules it is ok) would improve your unarmed damage faster than normal. (*If you feel taking the Mounted Combat feat is worth it, consider the Prestige Class version of the Paladin found in Unearthed Arcana, as it improves some of the class abilities and gets you the mount earlier.) Scout 2 nets you Improved Uncanny Dodge (since you already have Uncanny Dodge from your level of Cleric), Battlefield Fortitude +1 (Fortitude save and initiative) Trapfinding, Skirmish (+1d6), and some nice skill points. Swashbuckler 3 (from Complete Warrior) gets you d10 Hit Dice, Good BAB, Insightful Strike (Int. modifier to damage with light weapons), Weapon Finesse for free, and Grace (+1 to Reflex Saves). ****Now on to Prestige Classes)**** Duelist 5-7 is nice for your AC, Good BAB, and d10 Hit Dice. Canny Defense adds your Int. modifier to your AC (up to your level of Duelist), Improved Reaction is handy, Enhanced Mobility is good for someone who moves alot, Grace +2 probably doesn't stack with the Swashbucklers (but is better anyway), Precise Strike adds more damage, Acrobatic Charge is icing, and Elaborate Parry gives even more AC when fighting defensively. (*I would lose a couple of levels from here if you like all my other suggestions. Duelist 3 or 5 are both really nice...) Thief-Acrobat 4 may be worth it. All of their abilities help with being a dexterous combatant, and they get 6 skill points each level. Acrobatic Mastery is particularly nice for the active Monk gestalt. Chameleon 2 (or more) may be worth it for the flexibility it offers (a different bonus feat each day). In addition, the weaknesses of this class are nearly entirely neutralized by gestalting. (*To get this PrC remember that you must take Able Learner at first level. This doesn't hurt anything, but does force a specific timing on your feat choices.) Saint Template (if allowed) will get you your Wis modifier on your armor class (again, it does stack with Monk levels) and several other handy things. **** Just from the classes this is (ideally) something like - Monk 20 - Swashbuckler 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Scout 2/PrC Paladin 3/Duelist 5/Thief-Acrobat 4/Chameleon 2. Improvements BAB +11 Good Attack Bonus (+6 from Monk) Hit Dice 10d10 Hit Dice (+10d8 from Monk) Saves - +2 Reflex (Grace class ability) and +1 Fortitude (Battle Fortitude class ability) Initiative +3 (Battle Fortitude and Improved Reaction class abilities) Cleric Spellcasting at level 2 Turn Undead at level 4 Chameleon Spellcasting at level 2 Weapon Finesse + One (Can be changed each day) other Bonus Feat Tons of other special class abilities (many focussing on getting more out of your ability score bonuses). **** Take from these ideas what you will. I did not include any attempt at serious spellcasting, since I am sure that others will suggest all sorts of good ideas here. For the same reason I did not discuss attempts at increasing your size or shapechanging (as I am sure others will cover this also). These suggestions really mostly make you a serious unarmed combat junkie who should be next to impossible to hit. If you budget your ability scores and improvements well you should be truly amazing to see in action. Good luck! DarkOne7141981
Part-Human2 08-07-05, 02:07 AM	Werebear 9/War Hulk 10/Fighter 1 // Psychic Warrior 5/Warshaper 4/Psyschic Warrior +9/Monk 2 assuming you can take werebear as a class using the WotC Savage Progressions Template class. You should be able to Gestalt a PrC with a Template class.
Part-Human2 08-07-05, 02:20 AM	Start as a Neutral Neraph (PlanarHB), use the Savage Species Ritural of Association to get the [Evil] subtype then Spellthief 6/Fiend of Possession 6 // Psion 12. Change your alignment to Good (you keep the Evil subtype) and take VoP. Finish with Psion +8 // Thrallherd 2/whatever 6. Metamorph your Psycrystal into a weapon and possess it. Or possess your Thralls. [Edit: Build change to occomodate Will +5 prerequisite]
Wizard Random 08-07-05, 04:45 AM	Try this On side one you have Soulknife 9, Kensai 10, cleric 1 On Side 2 Monk 8 AOP 10 Saint 2 This nets you a mind blade buffed beyond amazing, that doesnt go aganst your VOP, 9th level spellcasting from AOP and some truly wonderful ablitys, you gain some domains, and some turning at level 7-10 i belive, you are allowed to use ANY magic items as long as it can be consiered defensive, I.E. Bracers of Armor, but since you cant wear amor PERIOD, making the bracers with armor enchancments are good. (arms and equipment guide) You have some handy monk ablities. And be a race like Elan so your immortal and you get +4 to saves when you REALLY need it. Down side is you cant "Kill" anything. That doesnt mean you cannot violently beat it within a inch of its life, but as long as you dont close that inch your gold. you end up with a BAB of +18 i think and good saves all around. Your ac i think will be someone where in the high 60's with the proper magic equipment, and of course if you dont want something to hurt SOMETHING, you can make it stop. However sometimes you REALLY need to kill soemthing and thats why you have a party. Otherwise feel free to kill any/all undead and contructs you come across since it says you can, the thing just cannot be alive.
Lilt 08-07-05, 10:49 AM	Firstly: You cannot have two prestige classes at the same level in a gestalt build. (top of P73, Unearthed Arcana) Secondly: LA applies to both sides of a build according to the rules for LA. Nothing in the gestalt rules allows you to take a class level or a level of level adjustment. An exabple of the insane possibilities otherwise available is to have some character going Some-Classes 20//Some-Templates 20 which allows a 20th level gestalt character to be mechanically identical to a 40th level non-gestalt character.
Part-Human2 08-07-05, 12:09 PM	Firstly: You cannot have two prestige classes at the same level in a gestalt build. (top of P73, Unearthed Arcana) Secondly: LA applies to both sides of a build according to the rules for LA. Nothing in the gestalt rules allows you to take a class level or a level of level adjustment. An exabple of the insane possibilities otherwise available is to have some character going Some-Classes 20//Some-Templates 20 which allows a 20th level gestalt character to be mechanically identical to a 40th level non-gestalt character. I'd thought I'd point out some loopholes. Racial Paragon, Template and Monster classes are not PrC's and can be taken alongside other PrCs in Gestalt builds. According to the rules, Monster and Template classes are "Classes" so they may be gestalted with PrCs and taken as one side of the build.
Caelic 08-07-05, 12:15 PM	That's still not going to work for a lot of the builds in this thread, PH, although you're totally correct. Unfortunately, they just have too many PrCs.
Aramas 08-07-05, 01:00 PM	Best idea I've seen is Druid 20 // MoMF 10 / Warshaper 4 / Something else 6 Let's see what I can come up with... 1 Druid 1st // Ranger 1st 2 Druid 2nd // Ranger 2nd 3 Druid 3rd // Ranger 3rd 4 Druid 4th // Ranger 4th 5 Druid 5th // Ranger 5th 6 Druid 6th // Warshaper 1st 7 Druid 7th // Warshaper 2nd 8 Druid 8th // Master of Many Forms 1st 9 Druid 9th // Master of Many Forms 2nd 10 Druid 10th // Master of Many Forms 3rd 11 Druid 11th // Master of Many Forms 4th 12 Druid 12th // Master of Many Forms 5th 13 Druid 13th // Master of Many Forms 6th 14 Druid 14th // Master of Many Forms 7th 15 Druid 15th // Master of Many Forms 8th 16 Druid 16th // Master of Many Forms 9th 17 Druid 17th // Master of Many Forms 10th 18 Druid 18th // Nature's Warrior 1st 19 Ranger 6th // Nature's Warrior 2nd 20 Druid 19th // Nature's Warrior 3rd This gives full druid casting and wildshaping out the proverbial wazoo. You can interchange Nature's Warrior and Warshaper levels to suit your needs. Has a BAB of +17 and pretty good saves although I don't feel like calculating them.
Caelic 08-07-05, 01:02 PM	Here's the odd thing: what happens when you stack those Wilding levels with your 20 levels of Druid for purposes of Wildshape?
Aramas 08-07-05, 01:06 PM	Well you are a 22nd level druid for the purposes of Wildshape size and frequency, I'd say you would be treated as a 20th level druid in most cases... unless you wanted to jerk out the ELH and note that a 22nd level druid can wildshape 7/day. You would still be limited by your own HD as to what shapes you could take I guess.
Caelic 08-07-05, 01:08 PM	Actually, Aramas, you'd technically be 32nd level for...well, whatever purposes the DM is mad enough to allow. MoMF has been errataed to stack with Druid for Wildshaping purposes.
Aramas 08-07-05, 01:14 PM	Well I would assume that the DM would not be silly enough to let you wildshape into a 32 HD creature, in which case all those extra druid levels net you is more wildshape uses per day... like you didn't have enough to begin with. Really, what's 19 / day vs 16 / day.
Ad Infinitum 08-07-05, 01:34 PM	Gestalt rules wouldn't allow that; they combine the levels instead of stacking them.
Aramas 08-07-05, 01:40 PM	While the wording of the Wilding Class Ability would seem to disagree with you, I would agree. You don't need wildshaping to be better than a 20th druid.
Lilt 08-07-05, 01:52 PM	On the Druid/MoMF issues: Note that MoMF doesn't grant "Wild shape", it grants "Improved Wild shape". As such, it is somewhat of a grey area as to wether or not the abilities stack. One reading says that they are 'aspects' that overlap and thus they don't stack, the other says that they aren't strictly the same class feature and thus the benefits stack. I'd go with the sensible option if I was GMing, however, and not allow them to stack.
Ectoplasmoid 08-07-05, 04:20 PM	Here's a strong build: Fighter1///Sorc1 Fighter2///Sorc2 Fighter2/Favored Soul1///Sorc3 Fighter2/FavoredSoul2/Sorc4 Fighter2/FavoredSoul3///Sorc4/Paladin1 Fighter2/FavoredSoul4///Sorc4/Paladin2 Mystic Theurge///Paladin the rest of the way, and when youre finished with it, go FS/Exalted arcanist You end up with your primary casting stat to saves, 9th level divine and arcane casting, nearly straight d10 hd, and the ability to smite a few times for those nice touch attacks. Replace Sorceror with Wilder and MT with PT, or replace Favored Soul with Wilder and MT with Cerebremaner
Aramas 08-07-05, 04:23 PM	Time and time again people suggest MT for gestalt and it's not allowed. Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, Arcane Trickster, Cerebremancer, Eldritch Knight, etc are not allowed in gestalt builds.
OnCider 08-08-05, 07:09 AM	Werebear 9/War Hulk 10/Fighter 1 // Psychic Warrior 5/Warshaper 4/Psyschic Warrior +9/Monk 2 assuming you can take werebear as a class using the WotC Savage Progressions Template class. You should be able to Gestalt a PrC with a Template class. Very similar to my build, although we're not allowed Psionics and I thought War Hulk was a bit cheesy ;) Werebear 9/Fighter 1/Kensai 10 Monk 16/Warshaper 4 (warshaper is completed before Kensai) (Kensai allows me to get some weapon bonuses with VoP) I worked out my Flurry of Blows attack would be +42/+42/+42/+37/+32/+27 with damage something like 6d8 + 25 (50 strength) + Golden Ice + 2d6 (vs evil) + 10 levels of weapon enhancements (speed for an extra attack?) AC 45 BAB 17 15ft reach
Tweedledope 08-08-05, 09:20 AM	Can't be Monk / Druid because Monk requires Lawful alignment, Druid requires Neutral alignment, and Exalted requires Good. Not true. It requires you to live by the exalted lifestyle. Proof of my argument can be seen with the exalted character example of the Benevolent Healer. This example is a straight Druid 7 (IIRC for the level). Exalted characters aren't "bound by alignment" so much as they are bound by the style in which they play and their philosophical outlook on life. -=Tweedledope=-
Caelic 08-08-05, 10:11 AM	Err...a Druid can be Neutral Good. The fact that the example character is a Druid certainly doesn't mean that Exalted characters can be non-good.
Aramas 08-08-05, 11:05 AM	Edit: Double Post
Aramas 08-08-05, 11:07 AM	The Exalted lifestyle is better than good. Just being good doesn't make you exalted.. but being exalted means you exemplify everything about the good alignment. Exalted is paladin good. Better than that even. When I said Druids must be Neutral... I meant that they must have one component of their alignment be neutral (like it says in the class description) and Monks must have one part of their alignment be lawful (like it says in the class description). Exalted characters must be lawful good, neutral good, or chaotic good. While you can be a gestalt monk / druid (by being lawful neutral) you cannot also be exalted.
Ad Infinitum 08-08-05, 11:50 AM	As to the original topic: I'm an idiot. I had fully been intending to go into War Hulk, once I hit epic level so that the +0 BAB wouldn't hurt so much. :banghead: A lot of the builds suggested are high charisma, but with all of the sorcerers and bluff rogues that I've played...I would just like a bit of a change. Something with a 6 charisma. I'd been thinking of doing a Half Orc that's had a permanent persistant Enlarge Person cast on him, but the monster class idea is a good one. Maybe I could somehow use Multi-Weapon Fighting... Any suggestions?
carnivore 08-08-05, 03:46 PM	try this: Dont take the VOP till 18th level then go with Psion 20 or Druid 20(would require Ninja instead of Monk and a few other adjustments) on one side and this on the other side Monk 2/ Paladin 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ SoulKnife 5/ Shou Disciple 5/ Iaijutsu Master 2/ Shiba Protector 1 Psion 1/Swashbuckler 1 . .weapon finnesse/Wpn Focus(unarmed)/ improved Initiative Psion 2/Monk(variant) 1 . imp unarmed / dodge Psion 3/Monk(variant) 2 . mobiltiy/Wpn Focus(Katana) Psion 4/Paladin 1 Psion 5/Paladin 2 Psion 6/Swashbuckler 2.............quickdraw Psion 7/Swashbuckler 3 Psion 8/SoulKnife 1 ... .wild talent/ Wpn Focus(mindblade) Psion 9/SoulKnife 2 .exotic weapon(Katana) Psion 10/SoulKnife 3 Psion 11/SoulKnife 4 Psion 12/SoulKnife 5........ .iron will Psion 13/Shou Disciple 1 Psion 14/Shou Disciple 2 ...Combat expertise Psion 15/Shou Disciple 3 ...Sacred vow Psion 16/Shou Disciple 4 ..Alertness Psion 17/Shou Disciple 5 Psion 18/iaijutsu master 1 .VOP /weapon finnesse(Katana)/exalted feat Psion 19/iaijutsu master 2 Psion 20/Shiba Protector 1...........exalted feat you end up with : BAB +16 Int to AC Int to Damage Wis to AC Wis to Attack Wis to Damage Dex to AC Dex to Attack Cha to all saves Cha to Initiative 10 Str.....10 24 Dex....14 + 4 VOP+5 inherent +1 lvl 16 Con.....14+2 VOP 23 Int........14+6 VOP+3 inherent 30 Wis......14+4 inherent+4 lvls +8 VOP 18 Cha......14+4 inherent 424480gp 16 wishes (inherent ability scores) BAB +16....all weapons are considered magic and good full attack with flurry(16+10 wis+7 dex+5 VOP+1(wpn focus)-1 flurry) +38/+38/+33/+28/23 Damage: Unarmed= 2d6+6 Int+10 Wis +5 VOP enhancement = average 27 Soulknife= 1d10 +6 Int+10 Wis +5 VOP enhancement = average 26+1d6 Psychic 53 AC 10+10 wis +6 Int +7 dex+10 VOP +2 Natural +3 Deflection +3 Dodge +1 dodge+1 unnamed monk Benefits from a VOP: Energy resistance 15 True seeing constant effect Freedom of movement constant effect DR 10/evil and magic Mindshield constant effect Regenerate 20 hp/hour No need to Eat/ Drink/ Breath not too bad for a character with no weapons, no armor, no items at all by delaying taking the VOP till 18th you will be able to have some money to spend on Inherrent Bonuses........which will help out greatly in the long run the character will also have all the abilities of a 20th lvl Psion(including 5 additional Feats)........or Druid 20(with wild shaping) if you choose that direction......so all these abilities will go UP depending on the Form taken..... for a VOP....Psion or Druid usually work best. another idea is to go with a fast progression class on one side and full caster on the other.... :D
Lilt 08-08-05, 03:52 PM	Hey, your allignment can change. It's possible that your character went lawful neutral -> neutral -> neutral good. Druid and monk work far better together as that lets you combine a wildshaped natural attack routine and unarmed strikes.
obrysii 08-08-05, 08:21 PM	Gold Dragon Savage Progression 20/Sorceror 20 Not extremely powerful, as I'm nto familiar with spellcasters...but dragons innately ignore the material component requirements of spells, needing only the focuses. I'm not sure if that works on Divine spells, or not, but that could be useful for a VoP character.
Tweedledope 08-08-05, 09:54 PM	While we're on the topic... Does anyone know of a good place (including magazines) that feature Exalted feats? I know the Players Guide to Faerun has a few of them but, I'm looking for more. Anybody know of any?
eRaz0r 08-09-05, 03:03 PM	Hey, your allignment can change. It's possible that your character went lawful neutral -> neutral -> neutral good. Druid and monk work far better together as that lets you combine a wildshaped natural attack routine and unarmed strikes. But we're not talking sequential classes here, we're talking gestalt You can't be both Lawful AND *neutral* AND Good at the same time, which is what would be required to have a Monk 20//Druid 20 [Exalted] gestalt character. Say you start LN - you're a Monk1//Druid 1 gestalt and that's fine. When you want to take VOP you have to become (and REMAIN) either LG or NG. Either one of those options excludes the other class from the build from that point on (until you change back and get an atonement). So I repeat a Monk 20 // Druid 20 Exalted Gestalt is impossible.
Lilt 08-09-05, 03:12 PM	But we're not talking sequential classes here, we're talking gestalt You can't be both Lawful AND *neutral* AND Good at the same time, which is what would be required to have a Monk 20//Druid 20 [Exalted] gestalt character. Say you start LN - you're a Monk1//Druid 1 gestalt and that's fine. When you want to take VOP you have to become (and REMAIN) either LG or NG. Either one of those options excludes the other class from the build from that point on (until you change back and get an atonement).But Carnivore's build worked fine starting as LN:Dont take the VOP till 18th levelSo you don't need to take any exalted feats until 15th level by which time you can have worked your character round to being neutral-good.
jameswilliamogle 08-09-05, 03:13 PM	not that this is on topic, but how do gestalt classes work with prestige classes? could i do this: wiz/druid gestalt 1-5, incanatrix/druid gestalt 6-8, 10-16 exalted exorcist/druid gestalt 9 w/ metamagic feat 17-18 mage of the arcane order/druid gestalt 19-20 archmage/druid gestalt ? would this give me 20 levels of druid, 5 wizard, 1 exorcist, 10 incanatrix, 2 MotAO, and 2 archmage? also, VoP with a wizard isn't that bad... your friends have to buy ink for your spellbook, and you lose out on shapechange, but most spells have inexpensive material components anyway. also, VoP as written can only be taken by good characters, but is there any reason why a DM couldn't rule this a general feat? i mean, it kind of reminds me of socialism - give all your possessions to the greater good, or else!
lonewolf 08-09-05, 03:25 PM	My favorite Gestalt combination works also with VOP: Goliath(buy of LA) one side Druid other side Babarian1/Psychic Warrior2/Fighter2/Warhulk10/Frenzied Berzerker5
jameswilliamogle 08-09-05, 03:30 PM	does VoP require a good alignment, or does it require you to "exemplify" a good alignment? if you are only required to "exemplify a good alignment", then a crappy loophole would be to always do the "good" thing, but secretly regret doing the "bad" thing, without ever telling anyone. stupid, i know, but that's one way of allowing a VoP druid/monk. as a DM, i always felt the Lawful aspect of being a monk was emphasized too much - think of a drunken master: do they seem lawful, really?
Nifft 08-09-05, 07:02 PM	Oh, Psionics are allowed? Well then... Druid 20 // Telepath 5 / Thrallherd 5 / Stalker 10 Or... Psion (Shaper) 5 // Rogue 5 Psion 6 // Psion Uncarnate 1 Psion Uncarnate 2,3 // Rogue 6,7 Psion 7 // Psion Uncarnate 4 Psion Uncarnate 5,6 // Rogue 8,9 Psion 8 // Psion Uncarnate 7 Psion Uncarnate 8,9 // Rogue 10,11 Psion 9 // Psion Uncarnate 10 -- Incorporeal PC level 15, manifester level 15, +6d6 Sneak Attack Psion 10-14 // Kensai 1-5 -- good skill list, and you'll want some special abilities on your incorporeal touch attack -- like, say, Holy ;) -- N
eRaz0r 08-09-05, 07:46 PM	But Carnivore's build worked fine starting as LN:So you don't need to take any exalted feats until 15th level by which time you can have worked your character round to being neutral-good. The build Carnivore posted was not Monk20//Druid20, which was the specific build to which I was referring... was it not ? At the point one takes VoP, one must be Exalted, requiring Good. So at best you can take Monk18/XX (not requiring Lawful) /// Druid 20, which requires you to have an Alignment of LN (up to 18th level) and then suddenly become an Exalted Neutral Good character for the last 3 levels. This would not really be possible short of some massive RP event - I mean, you've spent 18 levels being LN, and suddenly Law does't mean as much to you as it did before, and you're PURE GOOD - exemplar of Good. Exalted Good. Short of being co-opted by the Companions, I don't see that happening in anything short of munchkin territory.