Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mikal 12-05-04, 04:31 AM	please see topic title. wondering how i can get into AT at this level without mage hand and the like.
Funny Slaughter 12-05-04, 07:41 AM	mage hand is taken care of by the regional feat "magical training" (the swiss knife for PrC-requirements) from PGtF
Todd 12-05-04, 08:52 AM	I think that the *best* way is to take the Spell Hand feat at first level to knock out the Mage Hand requirement and beg your DM to let your lesser Invocations count to fill the 'cast 3rd level spells' requirement. Then you can do builds like Rogue-3 / Warlock-7 / Arcane Trickster-10 ... or 3/8/9 in your case. Failing that it's messier. For evil Warlock-8 / Rogue-1 / Assassin-5 / Arcane Trickster-6 looks good if you can make the skills work to get into Assassin. Otherwise you will probably need to take another level or two of Rogue. If your PC isn't evil you are probably looking at Warlock-8 / Fighter-1 / Suel Arcanamach-4 / Rogue-3 / Arcane Trickster-4 or Warlock-8 / Wizard-5 / Rogue-3 / Arcane Trickster-4. Pretty ugly neh?
Mikal 12-05-04, 01:27 PM	mage hand is taken care of by the regional feat "magical training" (the swiss knife for PrC-requirements) from PGtF That it is.. except we're running 3.5 rules, and dumb-butt me didn't take it at 1st level.
Tealgorthian 12-05-04, 01:50 PM	Spell-hand in Complete Arcane can be taken at any level, and gives Mage Hand.
Betrayer of Hope 12-05-04, 03:34 PM	Todd, that Rogue 3/Warlock 7/Trickster 10 build doesn't work, as you have no way to cast 3rd level arcane spells. Even though there are invocations that mimic 3rd level spells, pg. 72 CA specifically states that having a spell-like ability that mimics a spell of a particular level doesn't give you the ability to cast spells of that level. It would be a very nice DM to directly contradict rules rather than simply bend interpretations. Actually, the Assassin 4 build doesn't work either (they don't get 3rd level spells till 5th level). Sadly Warlock 8 is probably just not going to be able to get into Trickster.
Todd 12-05-04, 07:48 PM	Todd, that Rogue 3/Warlock 7/Trickster 10 build doesn't work, as you have no way to cast 3rd level arcane spells. Even though there are invocations that mimic 3rd level spells, pg. 72 CA specifically states that having a spell-like ability that mimics a spell of a particular level doesn't give you the ability to cast spells of that level. It would be a very nice DM to directly contradict rules rather than simply bend interpretations. Betrayer did you read what I posted? ...and beg your DM to let your lesser Invocations count to fill the 'cast 3rd level spells' requirement I *know* that they don't count that why I suggested begging. ;) Actually, the Assassin 4 build doesn't work either (they don't get 3rd level spells till 5th level). You got me here. My bad. I posted in a hurry and didn't double check. I'll edit my post. :)
catharz 12-05-04, 08:08 PM	You can legally get the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells from a Wand of Mnemonic enhancer, which you can UMD. It makes less in-game sense then just using invocations, but it is RAW. Then just take a level of Sneak attack fighter [UA] and a level of Rogue: War 8/Rog 1/Ftr 1/AT 10. Of course, you need a huge Int for the skill points.
Betrayer of Hope 12-05-04, 08:32 PM	I wasn't trying to be confrontational, Todd. I concur that you'd have to beg, I was just noting that it would be a direct contravention of written rules as opposed to a looser interpretation of ambiguities (which doesn't matter in the long run, but it might be a harder sell). Catharz: how does using a wand let you cast 3rd level spells? This might be an obvious answer, but if you'd humor me and explain it, that would be swell.
catharz 12-05-04, 09:44 PM	Catharz: how does using a wand let you cast 3rd level spells? This might be an obvious answer, but if you'd humor me and explain it, that would be swell. Check your PHB or SRD for (Rary's?) Mnemonic enhancer, a 4th level Wizard spell.
Betrayer of Hope 12-05-04, 10:08 PM	I'm not sure how that works even with invoking RAW. The first line of the 'prepare effect' says you "prepare up to three additional levels of spells" and then goes on to describe how you "prepare and cast these spells normally." How do you prepare spells using Enhancer if you don't otherwise cast spells? Even if you somehow prepare spells with your nonexistent spellcasting ability, how do you actually cast them to fulfill the PrC requirement? Attempting to UMD a wand of Mnemonic Enhancer to qualify for a casting prestige class is simply non-sensical. Allowing wizards to prepare additional spells doesn't grant non-spellcasters anything. This is even cheesier than using a Cloak of Arachnia to qualify for Mystic Theurge. RAW doesn't hold up to simply non-sensical attempts like this. EDIT: I don't really mean to be confrontational, but there is just no stretch of imagination that can make this work, RAW or not.
catharz 12-05-04, 10:45 PM	I'm not sure how that works even with invoking RAW. The first line of the 'prepare effect' says you "prepare up to three additional levels of spells" and then goes on to describe how you "prepare and cast these spells normally." How do you prepare spells using Enhancer if you don't otherwise cast spells? Even if you somehow prepare spells with your nonexistent spellcasting ability, how do you actually cast them to fulfill the PrC requirement? Attempting to UMD a wand of Mnemonic Enhancer to qualify for a casting prestige class is simply non-sensical. Allowing wizards to prepare additional spells doesn't grant non-spellcasters anything. This is even cheesier than using a Cloak of Arachnia to qualify for Mystic Theurge. RAW doesn't hold up to simply non-sensical attempts like this. EDIT: I don't really mean to be confrontational, but there is just no stretch of imagination that can make this work, RAW or not. It is very simple. You UMD to have the apparent caster level of a 5th level wizard (DC 25, IIRC). Which should let you prepare a 3rd level spell using the three spell levels from Mnemonic enhancer. For additional questions about whether this makes in-game sense or not, please refer to my original post.
Todd 12-05-04, 11:06 PM	catharz were I running a game I'm not sure that I would let this fly ... but I will note, sort of agreeing against my will, that Arcane Trickster does have different wording from most PrCs. It requires: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher. Against this standard for other PrCs. Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Betrayer of Hope 12-05-04, 11:18 PM	Tricking the wand is one thing. UMD certainly lets you do that. Tricking the PrC doesn't make any sense. You have neither spells to prepare nor the knowledge of how to prepare spells. The spell says that you prepare them "normally" (per your class, divine or arcane). How can you prepare something normally if you don't have any capacity to prepare spells? Where do they come from (you can't prepare spells directly from a scroll and a spellbook is not a magical item to be tricked by UMD)? I don't think you can even stretch RAW to cover this. Neither UMD nor the effect of Mnemonic Enhancer grants you the capacity to prepare spells when you don't normally have it. EDIT: I think the real problem is the belief that the UMD ability to trick items by mimicking class abilities somehow actually gives you those class abilities. There is nothing in the UMD description that says that even though you can use an item, its successful use has to do anything. Sort of like the cheese that says you can mimic being a 20th level monk when you have 1 monk level but +35 UMD. This isn't RAW, it is just wrong.
catharz 12-05-04, 11:32 PM	Tricking the wand is one thing. UMD certainly lets you do that. Tricking the PrC doesn't make any sense. You have neither spells to prepare nor the knowledge of how to prepare spells. The spell says that you prepare them "normally" (per your class, divine or arcane). How can you prepare something normally if you don't have any capacity to prepare spells? Where do they come from (you can't prepare spells directly from a scroll and a spellbook is not a magical item to be tricked by UMD)? I don't think you can even stretch RAW to cover this. Neither UMD nor the effect of Mnemonic Enhancer grants you the capacity to prepare spells when you don't normally have it. As per the spell and UMD, you prepare the spells "normally" as a 7th level wizard. I'm not interested in whether it makes sense or not. What makes sense is that a Warlock with the ability to use invocations that act like 3rd or higher-level spells and Mage hand should be able to gain access to arcane trickster PrC. I realize that if you like abusing the rules I'm opening a nice little can of worms. On the other hand, if you just want to do something that makes sense but is technically illegal, here is a legal way to do it. As always, it is up to the DM's Rule Zero.
Betrayer of Hope 12-05-04, 11:37 PM	I'm past talking about making sense. This interpetation is just wrong. UMD doesn't give you any abilities that you're mimicking for the activation of a magic item or scroll. Using the wand as if you were a 7th level wizard doesn't grant you the ability to do anything with the slots you get. Just because the wand thinks you're a 7th level wizard doesn't actually make you one. EDIT: WoTC made the Warlock something other than a caster for a reason. While I understand that it means the class is kind of limited and a bit boring from the CO perspective (and a limited list of invocations), I don't think it is justification for making him into a de facto caster simply so I can have a Warlock/Incantatrix/Mystic Theurge/Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord cheese-fest.