Best way to disarm -- Help! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best way to disarm -- Help! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tenken
03-30-06, 06:52 PM Okay, our party has the final fight coming up, and we know we'll be going against a character that'll use a long sword as a weapon. We've never used the disarm tactic, so I want to take the DM by surprise. The problem is, we're very limited on money, and no one is leveling up at the moment, so feats are out of the question. We know that whoever makes the attack will be hit and damaged if they try to make a disarm attempt, because there's no way the big boss won't have a high attack. The party has 3 clerics, a psychic warrior King of Smack, a rogue, and a sorcerer. The psw will most likely be making the disarm attempt. He has Expansion, which will help, but he'll need to be able to somehow get the Improved Disarm feat or another way to not grant an AoO when he attempts the disarm. Any idea if this is possible?
Wizard Random
03-30-06, 07:21 PM If you have a king of smack i wouldnt really be worried about much.
Tenken
03-30-06, 10:37 PM Well, force of arms alone can't win battles. Seriously though, we're getting put up against some really nasty stuff. I really like this DM. Doesn't matter what kind of builds we make, he'll just customize the monsters to be tougher. Maybe it's cheating, but it makes things more fun when things are tough for us to take out anyways. So anyways, any ways to disarm?
Wizard Random
03-30-06, 10:58 PM Well, force of arms alone can't win battles. Seriously though, we're getting put up against some really nasty stuff. I really like this DM. Doesn't matter what kind of builds we make, he'll just customize the monsters to be tougher. Maybe it's cheating, but it makes things more fun when things are tough for us to take out anyways. So anyways, any ways to disarm?

Well i stand by my statement that if you have a King of smack there is nothing you should be worried about. There is no monster in the game that can do enough damage to take one out(excluding certian spells, which the priests and Sorc should be able to Fix) unless the DM makes it that way.. and if he makes it that way then you should not be fighting it.

But to continue with Disarm, The Psw should have form of doom>? No? Reach perhaps? Unless the Bad guy is sporting a 10 foot reach or more you should be able to Disarm him from a distance and his AoO goes to waste, If he cannot extend his reach then have him Call Weapon to get a reach weapon that can perform a disarm, or a weapon that can perform a disarm Period. Since you would be attacking with a weapon the bad guy does not get a AoO

Another (dare i say better option) is to "sunder" the item with say.. a Spell. I dont have my books on me (as i am out of town) But if you can target a held item (especially a magic one) it gets a save vs the effect. Now it would get the BAD GUY's save vs the spell but the item wont be able to gain the effects of say Evasion or Mettle. I dont know what kinda spells you have access too but a Shatter spell will do the trick (from the clerics)

Another fun option is to summon a monster that will do the Job for you. Take a look at all the extended summoning lists and find a monster That either Sunders VERY well or Perhaps has a special effect to Disarm. Remeber the monster does not have to Kill the guy just survive long enough to jack the weapon, Also i belive the summon spells talk about giving a summoned monster a item and when you summon that particular monster he reapears with the items you gave him, So summon+Disarm+Dismiss is a wonderful to get it from him and make sure he doesnt get it back. Also if you cannot find a monster to summon ask your DM he seems the kind of guy who you could work with to get the job done.

Another option is to use Enchantment spells to Charm or DOmiate him, Any good boss of sufficent level will be resistent or immune to such effects, however if all his power comes from items ( as is the case with most players) then just Sunder the item and once his defenses are down do your dirty work.

Also Forcecage and Cloudkill will take out 85% ( my guess) of the monsters/and or created enimies you will ever fight. Unless he is immune to Poison somehow he will die from the cloudkill even if he makes his save every round.

If i think up something else i will post it
Tenken
03-30-06, 11:19 PM Well, it's tough. Our party of 7 (now 6) is around level 15-16, and we nearly got wiped out going against a CR 21 creature that the DM put us up against. The King of Smack was taken out in 2 hits, not because of damage, but because each hit forced him to make a save-or-die roll. It was a nasty fight, and very short-lived, but luckily we made it out with only one permanent casualty.

Anyways, that guy was just a lackey compared to what we'll be facing next, so we'll do what we can. I like your idea of using Reach, which will work perfectly. The DM loves it when we do something that catches him by surprise and normally gives us extra experience for outsmarting him, so I really wanna try to take this guy down within one round and make it more fun.
Wizard Random
03-30-06, 11:20 PM Well, it's tough. Our party of 7 (now 6) is around level 15-16, and we nearly got wiped out going against a CR 21 creature that the DM put us up against. The King of Smack was taken out in 2 hits, not because of damage, but because each hit forced him to make a save-or-die roll. It was a nasty fight, and very short-lived, but luckily we made it out with only one permanent casualty.

Anyways, that guy was just a lackey compared to what we'll be facing next, so we'll do what we can. I like your idea of using Reach, which will work perfectly. The DM loves it when we do something that catches him by surprise and normally gives us extra experience for outsmarting him, so I really wanna try to take this guy down within one round and make it more fun.

(Cough) Death Ward (Cough)
Wizard Random
03-30-06, 11:24 PM Hmm a Cr21 vs 7 lvl 15-16 party members? Seems 7 peeps shouldnt have won that fight(assuming he was using Epic rules)

However i really dont think Disarming(however cool) is going to win you the fight if that THING was just a lackey. I am going out on a limb here and will assume the Final guy is Humonoid(I.E> 2 arms 2 legs 1 head) and is just a suped up PC with a template and the Bank of the DM backing him up. Which means he wouldve picked one of the humonoid races to serve which leads me to think he will be using spells or items to make him invulnerable.

All this pointless talking leads me to the Forccage+Cloudkill as a I WIN button, not only is it a creative use of mundane spells but it will guaentee you victory. Also as a last option if you REALLY DONT WANT HIM TO HAVE HIS WEAPON just cast grease on it until he fails the reflex save. As soon as he fails that save he is not going to be picking up that weapon agian +)
Tenken
03-30-06, 11:28 PM Well, we weren't prepared with Death Ward for that last encounter, but yeah, that's on the cleric's spell list now, hehe.

Btw, we're fighting undeads. Not sure what Cloudkill does, but I'm assuming it won't affect undeads. We do have Forcecage that we're planning on using.
Wizard Random
03-30-06, 11:37 PM Well, we weren't prepared with Death Ward for that last encounter, but yeah, that's on the cleric's spell list now, hehe.

Btw, we're fighting undeads. Not sure what Cloudkill does, but I'm assuming it won't affect undeads. We do have Forcecage that we're planning on using.

Oh jeez Undead eh that makes it SO much easier. Now if the last boss is of ocurse (ALIVE) then the afformentioned tactices will work.

However you are correct if he is undead then there is nothing you can do with cloudkill. Man i wish i had my books on me to give you hints about fightins undead, But here is another option, Use polymorph Any object to turn it into soemthing harmless like a bunny(personal favorite) you can skip the lines of text talking about duration see as how it wont be alive for very long. Turn it into something like a bunny and kill it simple. Seeing as how the undead will have a comparably low FORT save compared to everything else. If he has spell resististence the spell "Spell Vunerbility" will get past that Really quick. i mean heck a Mace of smiting...Sunbeam...Undeath to death....or even a use Soften earth to mud underneath him and then reharden it. I doubt he will be going anywhere soon. (cough) Dimensinal Anchor/Forbearence/Dimensinal lock (cough)
Tenken
03-30-06, 11:49 PM However you are correct if he is undead then there is nothing you can do with cloudkill. Man i wish i had my books on me to give you hints about fightins undead, But here is another option, Use polymorph Any object to turn it into soemthing harmless like a bunny(personal favorite) you can skip the lines of text talking about duration see as how it wont be alive for very long. Turn it into something like a bunny and kill it simple. Seeing as how the undead will have a comparably low FORT save compared to everything else. If he has spell resististence the spell "Spell Vunerbility" will get past that Really quick. i mean heck a Mace of smiting...Sunbeam...Undeath to death....or even a use Soften earth to mud underneath him and then reharden it. I doubt he will be going anywhere soon. (cough) Dimensinal Anchor/Forbearence/Dimensinal lock (cough)

It'll take place inside a building, so no Soften Earth trick... What's Forbearance, I can't find it in the PHB, and it's not on the Spell Index on WotC site...
ksbsnowowl
03-31-06, 12:23 PM Does the Sorcerer know True Strike? Here's a hint - Disarm checks are opposed attack rolls.
Tenken
03-31-06, 01:07 PM Does the Sorcerer know True Strike? Here's a hint - Disarm checks are opposed attack rolls.

The psw actually has true strike, and he'll be using it. Right now I can get him pumped up to +47 on the attempt. But going against a 30HD character with about 20 melee levels, he'll probably have around the same amount, so it'll come down to the dice roll.
R2
03-31-06, 01:11 PM Nobody said you had to only disarm him. Hit him with a net or bolas to entangle or trip him, or use some debuff spells (Bestow Curse comes to mind, for instance) to drop his resistances down.

If you can get him in a situation where he doesn't threaten AoO, you're gold. Have a Combat Expertise-ish character intentionally provoke an Attack against the villain while his AC is high -- say, let him Fight Defensively (or use actual Combat Expertise) and make a Trip Attempt. He provokes, sure, but with his good AC he can probably endure the hit, and after BBEG has made his AoO against the trip attempt, someone else can try to wrench that sword out of his hand.

Unless he has Combat Reflexes, but no plan's perfect.

In Complete Arcane, there's a spell called Bands of Steel. If you can find a scroll for your arcane caster to use, it leaves the target helpless. Then you don't just disarm him, you coup de grace him.

If you want a truly elegant solution, try that first-level spell Grease, applied to the hilt of his sword. He gets a saving throw since he's got the weapon on him, but if he fails the throw, he drops his weapon. Then he can either try to pick it up (provoking AoOs) or fight unarmed (provoking AoOs).

Unless he's got Improved Unarmed Strike or touch spells, but no plan's perfect.
DragonChildX
04-05-06, 06:51 PM Meh use a spiked Chain from the good old players hand book.
Reach Weapon with +2 to disarm!
Because its a two handed weapon - increase the disarm by another +4
Have your largest person do the disarm. +4 per size catagory difference

Total +6 to disarm without even having a larger character!

Easy and humerous way to do it is buy a spiked chain one size catagory higher. Then have the mage enlarge your character who disarms.

your bigger then him (I hope) Another +4.

SO +6 goes to +10 to disarm. And thats without strength or base attack as well!
Tenken
04-06-06, 04:11 PM Okay, since no one in our party is proficient with a spiked chain, this is what I've come up with. He's a psychic warrior using Expansion so that's he's a Huge size, making him have a strength score of 30. He's also using a belt that gives him another +4, so his total strength is 34. He's using a greatsword for the disarm attempt:

Disarm attempt: 14BAB +12str +5wpn(enhancement) +2goodhope(morale) +20truestrike(insight) +2recitation(luck) +8sizehuge +4twohanded +4improveddisarm -2size = +69 total

Am I missing anything?

Recitation is from Unapproachable East. If there's a better (luck) or (morale) bonuses that I can use instead of these two, let me know please.
Richmud
04-06-06, 10:21 PM There is a spell in complete arcane, I belive its called master's touch that grants proficency with any weapon touched for a few minutes, thus instant spiked chain prof.
Vaelan
04-07-06, 01:42 AM The Psychic Warrior uses Expansion, which he most assuredly has, possibly in conjunction with Metamorphisis, and uses his superior reach to disarm without provoking an AoO.
Tenken
04-07-06, 08:39 AM Gah, I just realized that if he disarms the opponent with a weapon, then the guy's weapon will fall to the ground. Since he's riding a Nightmare, that means that the weapon will be lost amidst the smoke :( :( :( So I guess my disarm attempt will now look like this:

Disarm attempt: 14BAB +14str +5wpn(enhancement) +2goodhope(morale) +20truestrike(insight) +2recitation(luck) +8sizehuge -4lightweapon +4improveddisarm -2size = +63 total

I have +14 str instead of the previously written +12 because I just re-read an item that my DM gave me a while back, and it allowed me to Rage and use psionic powers/concentrate skills and abilities still.

Let me know if there's a way to ensure that we can see the object even in total concealment, or if I'm missing any other bonuses that could improve the attempt.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenken 03-30-06, 06:52 PM	Okay, our party has the final fight coming up, and we know we'll be going against a character that'll use a long sword as a weapon. We've never used the disarm tactic, so I want to take the DM by surprise. The problem is, we're very limited on money, and no one is leveling up at the moment, so feats are out of the question. We know that whoever makes the attack will be hit and damaged if they try to make a disarm attempt, because there's no way the big boss won't have a high attack. The party has 3 clerics, a psychic warrior King of Smack, a rogue, and a sorcerer. The psw will most likely be making the disarm attempt. He has Expansion, which will help, but he'll need to be able to somehow get the Improved Disarm feat or another way to not grant an AoO when he attempts the disarm. Any idea if this is possible?
Wizard Random 03-30-06, 07:21 PM	If you have a king of smack i wouldnt really be worried about much.
Tenken 03-30-06, 10:37 PM	Well, force of arms alone can't win battles. Seriously though, we're getting put up against some really nasty stuff. I really like this DM. Doesn't matter what kind of builds we make, he'll just customize the monsters to be tougher. Maybe it's cheating, but it makes things more fun when things are tough for us to take out anyways. So anyways, any ways to disarm?
Wizard Random 03-30-06, 10:58 PM	Well, force of arms alone can't win battles. Seriously though, we're getting put up against some really nasty stuff. I really like this DM. Doesn't matter what kind of builds we make, he'll just customize the monsters to be tougher. Maybe it's cheating, but it makes things more fun when things are tough for us to take out anyways. So anyways, any ways to disarm? Well i stand by my statement that if you have a King of smack there is nothing you should be worried about. There is no monster in the game that can do enough damage to take one out(excluding certian spells, which the priests and Sorc should be able to Fix) unless the DM makes it that way.. and if he makes it that way then you should not be fighting it. But to continue with Disarm, The Psw should have form of doom>? No? Reach perhaps? Unless the Bad guy is sporting a 10 foot reach or more you should be able to Disarm him from a distance and his AoO goes to waste, If he cannot extend his reach then have him Call Weapon to get a reach weapon that can perform a disarm, or a weapon that can perform a disarm Period. Since you would be attacking with a weapon the bad guy does not get a AoO Another (dare i say better option) is to "sunder" the item with say.. a Spell. I dont have my books on me (as i am out of town) But if you can target a held item (especially a magic one) it gets a save vs the effect. Now it would get the BAD GUY's save vs the spell but the item wont be able to gain the effects of say Evasion or Mettle. I dont know what kinda spells you have access too but a Shatter spell will do the trick (from the clerics) Another fun option is to summon a monster that will do the Job for you. Take a look at all the extended summoning lists and find a monster That either Sunders VERY well or Perhaps has a special effect to Disarm. Remeber the monster does not have to Kill the guy just survive long enough to jack the weapon, Also i belive the summon spells talk about giving a summoned monster a item and when you summon that particular monster he reapears with the items you gave him, So summon+Disarm+Dismiss is a wonderful to get it from him and make sure he doesnt get it back. Also if you cannot find a monster to summon ask your DM he seems the kind of guy who you could work with to get the job done. Another option is to use Enchantment spells to Charm or DOmiate him, Any good boss of sufficent level will be resistent or immune to such effects, however if all his power comes from items ( as is the case with most players) then just Sunder the item and once his defenses are down do your dirty work. Also Forcecage and Cloudkill will take out 85% ( my guess) of the monsters/and or created enimies you will ever fight. Unless he is immune to Poison somehow he will die from the cloudkill even if he makes his save every round. If i think up something else i will post it
Tenken 03-30-06, 11:19 PM	Well, it's tough. Our party of 7 (now 6) is around level 15-16, and we nearly got wiped out going against a CR 21 creature that the DM put us up against. The King of Smack was taken out in 2 hits, not because of damage, but because each hit forced him to make a save-or-die roll. It was a nasty fight, and very short-lived, but luckily we made it out with only one permanent casualty. Anyways, that guy was just a lackey compared to what we'll be facing next, so we'll do what we can. I like your idea of using Reach, which will work perfectly. The DM loves it when we do something that catches him by surprise and normally gives us extra experience for outsmarting him, so I really wanna try to take this guy down within one round and make it more fun.
Wizard Random 03-30-06, 11:20 PM	Well, it's tough. Our party of 7 (now 6) is around level 15-16, and we nearly got wiped out going against a CR 21 creature that the DM put us up against. The King of Smack was taken out in 2 hits, not because of damage, but because each hit forced him to make a save-or-die roll. It was a nasty fight, and very short-lived, but luckily we made it out with only one permanent casualty. Anyways, that guy was just a lackey compared to what we'll be facing next, so we'll do what we can. I like your idea of using Reach, which will work perfectly. The DM loves it when we do something that catches him by surprise and normally gives us extra experience for outsmarting him, so I really wanna try to take this guy down within one round and make it more fun. (Cough) Death Ward (Cough)
Wizard Random 03-30-06, 11:24 PM	Hmm a Cr21 vs 7 lvl 15-16 party members? Seems 7 peeps shouldnt have won that fight(assuming he was using Epic rules) However i really dont think Disarming(however cool) is going to win you the fight if that THING was just a lackey. I am going out on a limb here and will assume the Final guy is Humonoid(I.E> 2 arms 2 legs 1 head) and is just a suped up PC with a template and the Bank of the DM backing him up. Which means he wouldve picked one of the humonoid races to serve which leads me to think he will be using spells or items to make him invulnerable. All this pointless talking leads me to the Forccage+Cloudkill as a I WIN button, not only is it a creative use of mundane spells but it will guaentee you victory. Also as a last option if you REALLY DONT WANT HIM TO HAVE HIS WEAPON just cast grease on it until he fails the reflex save. As soon as he fails that save he is not going to be picking up that weapon agian +)
Tenken 03-30-06, 11:28 PM	Well, we weren't prepared with Death Ward for that last encounter, but yeah, that's on the cleric's spell list now, hehe. Btw, we're fighting undeads. Not sure what Cloudkill does, but I'm assuming it won't affect undeads. We do have Forcecage that we're planning on using.
Wizard Random 03-30-06, 11:37 PM	Well, we weren't prepared with Death Ward for that last encounter, but yeah, that's on the cleric's spell list now, hehe. Btw, we're fighting undeads. Not sure what Cloudkill does, but I'm assuming it won't affect undeads. We do have Forcecage that we're planning on using. Oh jeez Undead eh that makes it SO much easier. Now if the last boss is of ocurse (ALIVE) then the afformentioned tactices will work. However you are correct if he is undead then there is nothing you can do with cloudkill. Man i wish i had my books on me to give you hints about fightins undead, But here is another option, Use polymorph Any object to turn it into soemthing harmless like a bunny(personal favorite) you can skip the lines of text talking about duration see as how it wont be alive for very long. Turn it into something like a bunny and kill it simple. Seeing as how the undead will have a comparably low FORT save compared to everything else. If he has spell resististence the spell "Spell Vunerbility" will get past that Really quick. i mean heck a Mace of smiting...Sunbeam...Undeath to death....or even a use Soften earth to mud underneath him and then reharden it. I doubt he will be going anywhere soon. (cough) Dimensinal Anchor/Forbearence/Dimensinal lock (cough)
Tenken 03-30-06, 11:49 PM	However you are correct if he is undead then there is nothing you can do with cloudkill. Man i wish i had my books on me to give you hints about fightins undead, But here is another option, Use polymorph Any object to turn it into soemthing harmless like a bunny(personal favorite) you can skip the lines of text talking about duration see as how it wont be alive for very long. Turn it into something like a bunny and kill it simple. Seeing as how the undead will have a comparably low FORT save compared to everything else. If he has spell resististence the spell "Spell Vunerbility" will get past that Really quick. i mean heck a Mace of smiting...Sunbeam...Undeath to death....or even a use Soften earth to mud underneath him and then reharden it. I doubt he will be going anywhere soon. (cough) Dimensinal Anchor/Forbearence/Dimensinal lock (cough) It'll take place inside a building, so no Soften Earth trick... What's Forbearance, I can't find it in the PHB, and it's not on the Spell Index on WotC site...
ksbsnowowl 03-31-06, 12:23 PM	Does the Sorcerer know True Strike? Here's a hint - Disarm checks are opposed attack rolls.
Tenken 03-31-06, 01:07 PM	Does the Sorcerer know True Strike? Here's a hint - Disarm checks are opposed attack rolls. The psw actually has true strike, and he'll be using it. Right now I can get him pumped up to +47 on the attempt. But going against a 30HD character with about 20 melee levels, he'll probably have around the same amount, so it'll come down to the dice roll.
R2 03-31-06, 01:11 PM	Nobody said you had to only disarm him. Hit him with a net or bolas to entangle or trip him, or use some debuff spells (Bestow Curse comes to mind, for instance) to drop his resistances down. If you can get him in a situation where he doesn't threaten AoO, you're gold. Have a Combat Expertise-ish character intentionally provoke an Attack against the villain while his AC is high -- say, let him Fight Defensively (or use actual Combat Expertise) and make a Trip Attempt. He provokes, sure, but with his good AC he can probably endure the hit, and after BBEG has made his AoO against the trip attempt, someone else can try to wrench that sword out of his hand. Unless he has Combat Reflexes, but no plan's perfect. In Complete Arcane, there's a spell called Bands of Steel. If you can find a scroll for your arcane caster to use, it leaves the target helpless. Then you don't just disarm him, you coup de grace him. If you want a truly elegant solution, try that first-level spell Grease, applied to the hilt of his sword. He gets a saving throw since he's got the weapon on him, but if he fails the throw, he drops his weapon. Then he can either try to pick it up (provoking AoOs) or fight unarmed (provoking AoOs). Unless he's got Improved Unarmed Strike or touch spells, but no plan's perfect.
DragonChildX 04-05-06, 06:51 PM	Meh use a spiked Chain from the good old players hand book. Reach Weapon with +2 to disarm! Because its a two handed weapon - increase the disarm by another +4 Have your largest person do the disarm. +4 per size catagory difference Total +6 to disarm without even having a larger character! Easy and humerous way to do it is buy a spiked chain one size catagory higher. Then have the mage enlarge your character who disarms. your bigger then him (I hope) Another +4. SO +6 goes to +10 to disarm. And thats without strength or base attack as well!
Tenken 04-06-06, 04:11 PM	Okay, since no one in our party is proficient with a spiked chain, this is what I've come up with. He's a psychic warrior using Expansion so that's he's a Huge size, making him have a strength score of 30. He's also using a belt that gives him another +4, so his total strength is 34. He's using a greatsword for the disarm attempt: Disarm attempt: 14BAB +12str +5wpn(enhancement) +2goodhope(morale) +20truestrike(insight) +2recitation(luck) +8sizehuge +4twohanded +4improveddisarm -2size = +69 total Am I missing anything? Recitation is from Unapproachable East. If there's a better (luck) or (morale) bonuses that I can use instead of these two, let me know please.
Richmud 04-06-06, 10:21 PM	There is a spell in complete arcane, I belive its called master's touch that grants proficency with any weapon touched for a few minutes, thus instant spiked chain prof.
Vaelan 04-07-06, 01:42 AM	The Psychic Warrior uses Expansion, which he most assuredly has, possibly in conjunction with Metamorphisis, and uses his superior reach to disarm without provoking an AoO.
Tenken 04-07-06, 08:39 AM	Gah, I just realized that if he disarms the opponent with a weapon, then the guy's weapon will fall to the ground. Since he's riding a Nightmare, that means that the weapon will be lost amidst the smoke :( :( :( So I guess my disarm attempt will now look like this: Disarm attempt: 14BAB +14str +5wpn(enhancement) +2goodhope(morale) +20truestrike(insight) +2recitation(luck) +8sizehuge -4lightweapon +4improveddisarm -2size = +63 total I have +14 str instead of the previously written +12 because I just re-read an item that my DM gave me a while back, and it allowed me to Rage and use psionic powers/concentrate skills and abilities still. Let me know if there's a way to ensure that we can see the object even in total concealment, or if I'm missing any other bonuses that could improve the attempt.