Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenken 03-14-05, 11:39 AM	I stumbled onto this feat: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a and I'm thinking about giving it to my psw. I'm wondering, do any of you ever use your animal companion in battle in a high-powered campaign? Our party is at 11th level, and if I take the feat now, my DM says he'll let the animal (in this case, a tiger) start out with 8d8 hit dice. With its con score, that'd be 8d8 +24, which probably will get him around 61 hp. The tanks in the group are at 90-100 hps, and we can barely survive as it is. On top of this, the animal's attack stats seems to be off. It only gets a +9 to attack in the MM chart, but its BAB is +4, and its str is +6, which means he should be at +10? Anyway, let me know if you guys think it's worth getting an animal, or if it's just too much trouble bringing him around everywhere for such little (if any) benefits? EDIT: In case it matters, our party consists of a King of Smack (the psw mentioned here), a blaster sorcerer who just throws out lightning bolts and fireballs, acid, magic missile, etc most of the time, a cleric archer/part time healer, a cleric healer/part time tank, a whisper gnome/mineral warrior rogue. Each of these characters focuses on what they do best: melee attacks, blast attacks, range attacks, healing, and skills. EDIT #2: If I were to get an animal companion, it'd be a tiger (or possibly a dire tiger, though not likely), so please don't post with recommendations of other animals. I'm asking specifically about getting a tiger.
Ander Spectacular 03-14-05, 12:00 PM	Have it grapple people and then have the party rogue sneak attack away. This should keep it from getting beat down mercilessly and quickly. -AS-
Darken 03-14-05, 12:10 PM	The -1 is from its size of Large.
Tenken 03-14-05, 12:13 PM	The -1 is from its size of Large. :confused: :confused: :confused: I could've sworn being bigger gives you plusses to attacks and minuses to AC???
Ivarrius 03-14-05, 12:54 PM	:confused: :confused: :confused: I could've sworn being bigger gives you plusses to attacks and minuses to AC??? It gives you bonuses to Str generally, but negatives to attack as everything is based off of medium sized creatures. Therefore, the smaller you are the harder you are to hit, and the better chance there is for hitting something bigger than you - a much bigger target. Going for a 'Cringer/Battlecat' sort of deal? If he is big enough go mounted. Good enough ride checks can negate hits to your mount.
Tenken 03-14-05, 01:17 PM	It gives you bonuses to Str generally, but negatives to attack as everything is based off of medium sized creatures. Therefore, the smaller you are the harder you are to hit, and the better chance there is for hitting something bigger than you - a much bigger target. Going for a 'Cringer/Battlecat' sort of deal? If he is big enough go mounted. Good enough ride checks can negate hits to your mount. I haven't really decided if I'd use him for a mount, but most likely that'll only be done for traveling purposes, I don't think I'd use him for battle while riding him. I'm just trying to figure out if this animal will become a burden, or if it actually has something to contribute. The grappling idea seems great, and at +14 to grapple, that's not *too* bad, though still kinda lacking. Anyone else have any ideas?
Ivarrius 03-14-05, 01:21 PM	What is your alignment? If you are good, look into BoED for some nifty fixes and feats for your companion. I can't remember what the feat is called, but you can make it a celestial companion. As it advances in hit dice too, it gains in size does it not?
Tenken 03-14-05, 01:36 PM	What is your alignment? If you are good, look into BoED for some nifty fixes and feats for your companion. I can't remember what the feat is called, but you can make it a celestial companion. Chaotic Good, but our DM makes us have to go through some sort of ritual to be able to take exalted feats. There are 3 characters that are exalted in our group, so he'd fit right in if you think it's worth it. What does being 'celestial' do for the animal exactly? As it advances in hit dice too, it gains in size does it not? Yeah, it does. He already told me I can have it start at 8 hit dice. It also gains feats, but I'm not really sure how often, since it's already got 3 feats at 6 hit dice (as shown on MM).
Ivarrius 03-14-05, 01:48 PM	Celestial adds alot of goodies. If you have the Monster manual, look at the celestial template that can be added. Essentially they get that. IIRC it adds SR, Smite attack, Energy resistances and something else that I cannot remember. Take a look in there, or even in the SRD. I would help you out a bit more if i wasn't stuck at work.
Snarf 03-14-05, 04:25 PM	I'm afraid that your tiger is doomed unless you are a druid. Animal companions are awesome at low levels. The only reason that animal companions can do anything at higher levels is spells like Greater Magic Fang, Animal Growth, Nature's Favor, and eventually Nature's Avatar. Even with those spells, a druid's animal companion has problems hanging in melee above 15th level, and your animal companion won't advance as well as a druid's. You could buy your tiger some magical equipment to help it out, like a Collar of Resistance, but you will definitely come to a point where it just can't deal with enemies that are correct for your group's encounter level. ...that is, unless you have access to psionic powers that can add substantial buffs to your tiger...but I don't think anything in the game quite compares to a druid in this respect.
Tenken 03-14-05, 04:46 PM	I'm afraid that your tiger is doomed unless you are a druid. Animal companions are awesome at low levels. The only reason that animal companions can do anything at higher levels is spells like Greater Magic Fang, Animal Growth, Nature's Favor, and eventually Nature's Avatar. Even with those spells, a druid's animal companion has problems hanging in melee above 15th level, and your animal companion won't advance as well as a druid's. You could buy your tiger some magical equipment to help it out, like a Collar of Resistance, but you will definitely come to a point where it just can't deal with enemies that are correct for your group's encounter level. ...that is, unless you have access to psionic powers that can add substantial buffs to your tiger...but I don't think anything in the game quite compares to a druid in this respect. Most psionic powers for the psychic warrior are 'personal' powers. Thanks for the advice, that's sorta what I thought anyway. I've always thought that even a druid's animal companion is kinda weak. I'm not sure what Nature's Favor or Nature's Avatar does (they're not in the SRD), but I can't imagine them helping out so much that the animal can actually compete...
Moon-Lancer 03-14-05, 04:46 PM	The feat everyone is talking about is a feat YOU take. it lets you add the template of celestial to any animal that you later get as a animal complain (but not to the one you already have). It also lets you get some magical beasts as animal companions. Being that they are celestial and thus good and not neutral, they can take exalted feats and you can give your animal companions touch of golden ice. At least I think this all can be done. Check monster manual for celestial template.
Tenken 03-14-05, 04:48 PM	I would help you out a bit more if i wasn't stuck at work. Sigh... same here.
Snarf 03-14-05, 05:15 PM	I'm not sure what Nature's Favor or Nature's Avatar does (they're not in the SRD), but I can't imagine them helping out so much that the animal can actually compete... Actually, they're pretty amazing spells...Nature's Favor is (at high level) +5 luck to hit/dmg. Nature's Avatar is sick, +10 morale to hit/dmg, plus (level d8) temp. HP (yes, like 20d8), plus everything Haste does. Add in GMF and Animal Growth, and you've got around +23 to hit/dmg and lots of other benefits. The beautiful thing about Druids is that you can cast also these on yourself in Wild Shape too, but that's neither here nor there :) Anyway, consider an 8 HD tiger in a level 11 party. Only +6 BAB, even with a nice strength, it'll be hard pressed to hit many of the foes that challenge your party. The problem gets worse as you advance, because your tiger lags in advancement, gaining 2 HD for every 3 levels you gain...but the bad guys are also gaining 3 levels, and ACs are getting higher faster than your tiger's BAB. There is some bonus strength, which helps, but not enough to offset the losses. So, such a creature is highly useful at low level, but the mathematics of the situation dictate that it won't be long before your tiger can't hit anything. Don't get me wrong, my druid has a celestial dire tiger companion, I think tigers are both cool and a great animal choice, mechanically. It's just that any animal companion will really struggle above 10th level without a druid to buff them out.
Tenken 03-14-05, 05:22 PM	Don't get me wrong, my druid has a celestial dire tiger companion, I think tigers are both cool and a great animal choice, mechanically. It's just that any animal companion will really struggle above 10th level without a druid to buff them out. Ahhhh... coming from a player who's actually playing a character with an animal companion, I'll definitely follow your advice. Oh well, it would've made for a pretty cool character flavor. King of Smack and a tiger, that just seems cool, but what the hell do I know, this is the CO board after all, hehe.
Snarf 03-14-05, 05:25 PM	The feat everyone is talking about is a feat YOU take. it lets you add the template of celestial to any animal that you later get as a animal complain (but not to the one you already have). It also lets you get some magical beasts as animal companions. Being that they are celestial and thus good and not neutral, they can take exalted feats and you can give your animal companions touch of golden ice. At least I think this all can be done. Check monster manual for celestial template. That is correct, as long as your DM has no qualms about letting your (Int 3) celestial animal companion take an exalted feat--which seems reasonable, as it's now native to the upper planes--they are valid options. Remember that your particular companion may be built using any valid feats, the only ones set in stone are racial bonus feats. Touch of Golden Ice does rock, and Sanctify Natural Attack will help to penetrate DR, and adds a little damage too. One other important thing that Exalted Companion does is that your companion is still considered an Animal for the purpose of spells you cast, which means that you can still use your animal buff spells on it...that's pretty critical for a druid.
Snarf 03-14-05, 05:34 PM	Ahhhh... coming from a player who's actually playing a character with an animal companion, I'll definitely follow your advice. Oh well, it would've made for a pretty cool character flavor. King of Smack and a tiger, that just seems cool, but what the hell do I know, this is the CO board after all, hehe. If you're going for cool, I'd say, what the hey, go for it...it's just cool to have a tiger...it's just not a choice that gets the "CO Stamp of Approval" :) I remember playing a strategic combat computer game called "Lords of Magic"...the barbarian hero guy rode a tiger and would scream "Move, tiger!!" every once in a while...still makes me want to play a tiger-riding barbarian :) Might even work, given the defensive power of Mounted Combat. I think with a high enough ride skill a tiger could even pounce with an attacking rider...now there's a scary image.
Tenken 03-14-05, 05:40 PM	If you're going for cool, I'd say, what the hey, go for it...it's just cool to have a tiger...it's just not a choice that gets the "CO Stamp of Approval" :) Well, I would do it as well, but I don't want to drag the whole party down. I'm playing with my family, and we create our builds to function well together. Bringing an extra weight to carry just for 'cool' purposes wouldn't really help out :( I think I'll probably try out a druid next time around though. Those spells you mentioned sounds insane. What books are they from anyway?
Snarf 03-15-05, 01:34 AM	They were both originally in Masters of the Wild for 3.0. Nature's Avatar is reprinted in Complete Divine for 3.5. Nature's Favor has been through so many revisions it's stupid, the most recent was in Complete Adventurer IIRC. The others I mentioned are good ol' PHB stand-bys. And yeah, druids rewl :)
PhaedrusXY 03-15-05, 02:21 AM	See if your DM will let you have the "share spells" ability with the feat also, and apply your psi-warrior powers through it. If so, you can buff your companion as a druid would. If not, then yes it will be good at lower levels and a liability at the upper ones.
Tenken 03-15-05, 10:02 AM	And yeah, druids rewl :) How would you play a druid if the Legendary Ape form is not playable? Would the druid still be able to compete in the melee department? Coz I've always preferred to play melee characters instead of casters. The Druid's Handbook on this board just talks about how to create builds using the Legendary Ape mostly...
Snarf 03-15-05, 02:22 PM	Ok, I'm finally going to say it. IMNSHO, Legendary Ape human-equipment-wearing druids are lame. If I see one more post about someone's dorky ape-boy wearing fullplate while riding on their pet triceratops I'm going to scream. D&D is a roleplaying game, and druids are too inherently cool a concept to be subjected to such nonsense purely for some mathematical combat advantage. Unless you worship the goddess of dinosaur-riding apes or something. Plus, it's not even legal by the RAW. But the people who vigorously use the RAW to defend their standard rules rapes are curiously silent on that point. A druid will do just fine without bending the rules using Legendary Ape. I know from experience, my druid's done just fine at every level, and I've been playing him since 3.0 came out (granted, the earlier levels were 3.0, but 3.5 is if anything kinder to druids). Many forms work well in combat, but tigers and bears stand out. Bears have the edge in single hit power, but tigers can pounce and rake. When you have combined enchantments giving you +50 to damage, every extra attack is golden. A druid can benefit from plenty of equipment in animal form too. In almost every form, you retain any necklace or rings you wear (see the Rules of the Game articles on Polymorphing). You can use Wild or Beasthide armor, and a Wild or Animated shield, so your AC will be insane with the proper equipment. I've already mentioned some of the offensive buffs...my 24th level druid routinely pops bad guys for over 300 damage a round in TIGER form. If you need access to all of your equipment, there are celestial forms available via Shapechange. A properly built druid (not even cheezily built, just properly built) can be fielded with a nigh-unhittable AC, an overwhelming melee capability, and of course remains a primary spellcaster. None of the above requires the Legendary Ape thing. Incidentally, the only sucktastic thing about tigers is that they were built using the Improved Natural Attack feat. Since you don't get that feat, your natural weapons do less damage than a real tiger. At least, that's the case until you get to Legendary Tiger, which was blessedly built before that stupid feat existed :)
Tenken 03-15-05, 02:44 PM	Ok, I'm finally going to say it. IMNSHO, Legendary Ape human-equipment-wearing druids are lame. If I see one more post about someone's dorky ape-boy wearing fullplate while riding on their pet triceratops I'm going to scream. D&D is a roleplaying game, and druids are too inherently cool a concept to be subjected to such nonsense purely for some mathematical combat advantage. Unless you worship the goddess of dinosaur-riding apes or something. You know, I wanted to say that as well, but considering I've never played a druid, I didn't want to be bombarded with a flood of flames from posters of this site. I'm glad someone said it though. Anyway, that aside, I've never heard of anyone talking about a triceratop as a mount. That actually sounds cool to me, coz I'm a big dinosaurs fan :D A druid will do just fine without bending the rules using Legendary Ape. I know from experience, my druid's done just fine at every level, and I've been playing him since 3.0 came out (granted, the earlier levels were 3.0, but 3.5 is if anything kinder to druids). Many forms work well in combat, but tigers and bears stand out. Bears have the edge in single hit power, but tigers can pounce and rake. When you have combined enchantments giving you +50 to damage, every extra attack is golden. I'm assuming that almost every full-progression druid uses the wildshape for combat? I'm asking because, again, I've never played a druid. I wanted to create this combo where a druid and a barbarian will basically play together, and the druid will have a tiger animal companion. I imagined both the drd and the bbn to be fighting melee, but if the druid has to change shapes to a tiger, then I guess that'll be just fine, but I'm just wondering if it's possible to still be effective in melee as a druid without changing shapes. my 24th level druid routinely pops bad guys for over 300 damage a round in TIGER form. If you need access to all of your equipment, there are celestial forms available via Shapechange. I sure as hell hope that by 24th level you'll be able to do that much damage :p Incidentally, the only sucktastic thing about tigers is that they were built using the Improved Natural Attack feat. Since you don't get that feat, your natural weapons do less damage than a real tiger. At least, that's the case until you get to Legendary Tiger, which was blessedly built before that stupid feat existed :) I don't really get this. Can't you just take Improved Natural Attack as a feat anyway?
Archmonarch 03-15-05, 03:02 PM	Nope. Your base form doesn't have natural attacks.
Tenken 03-15-05, 03:09 PM	Nope. Your base form doesn't have natural attacks. Ahhhh, I see I see. Cool, well my DM's cool about that, since he let a King of Smack build take that feat :)
Snarf 03-15-05, 03:58 PM	I sure as hell hope that by 24th level you'll be able to do that much damage :p Well I shoulda guessed that a King of Smack build wouldn't be impressed by that :) Suffice it to say that that's about average, the unlikely but sustainable maximum is around 600, and I'm sure there are more spells I could add. The problem is that each additional spell creates more preparation time for melee. Anyway, that's roughly where animals max out, but a pouncing dragon is a completely different thing of beauty. If you've never played epic, it's important to know that for most builds, damage doesn't continue to scale directly with your level. D&D doesn't quite work like Final Fantasy. So, a 22nd level guy shouldn't be expected to do twice the damage of an 11th level guy, unless some serious creativity is taking place. And, of course, there are always offensive spells. Pure damage is nice for large collections of targets, otherwise "save or be screwed" spells are best vs. individual targets (or better yet, "no save and guess what you're screwed" :)).
Snarf 03-15-05, 04:11 PM	Nope. Your base form doesn't have natural attacks. Technically you could legally take the INA feat for any natural weapon you could obtain through form shifting. It would work just like using a belt of giant strength to qualify for Power Attack--you lose the benefits of the feat if you lose any of its requirements. You have to specify a specific type of natural weapon for each feat. In the case of "INA claw" for example, you'd lose the benefits of the feat when you don't have claws, which in this particular case is self-evident. However, you'll probably find that a druid has better things to spend his feat slots on than a bunch of INA feats. It just annoys me that a druid becomes a dumbed-down tiger, but a perfect bear, because of the differences in the way a tiger and a bear were constucted in the MM. There is no logical reason for it, it's just an imperfection of the game system. Anyway, that's an old rant of mine, no new ground to cover.
Tenken 03-15-05, 04:15 PM	Well I shoulda guessed that a King of Smack build wouldn't be impressed by that :) Suffice it to say that that's about average, the unlikely but sustainable maximum is around 600, and I'm sure there are more spells I could add. The problem is that each additional spell creates more preparation time for melee. Anyway, that's roughly where animals max out, but a pouncing dragon is a completely different thing of beauty. Heh heh, cool. What about the other questions I had in that last post?
Snarf 03-15-05, 04:36 PM	I'm assuming that almost every full-progression druid uses the wildshape for combat? I'm asking because, again, I've never played a druid. I wanted to create this combo where a druid and a barbarian will basically play together, and the druid will have a tiger animal companion. I imagined both the drd and the bbn to be fighting melee, but if the druid has to change shapes to a tiger, then I guess that'll be just fine, but I'm just wondering if it's possible to still be effective in melee as a druid without changing shapes. I've never played a non-wildshape-oriented druid, but I cannot imagine that it would be too effective in melee. They certainly try to encourage that option, with some of the new "wild feats"...maybe a druid combined with some fighting class could work. However, I doubt that it would be more effective than a straight fighting-type guy. It would probably be the sort of character who would work okay in most games, but if eveyone else had optimized characters, he'd be weak by comparison. So I guess it depends on the sort of game your group plays. The real key to druidic smack is to invest most (all) of your stat points in mental stats, since your physical stats get replaced in wild shape. That's why all CO druid builds have horrible Str and Dex, and usually Con (not every DM allows HP to change when wild shape changes Con)...just enough to survive to 5th level. Then, fight in wild shape, and take advantage of the fact that you are considered an animal type for all of your animal-buffing spells. For that matter, sleep in wild shape too. Oh yeah, almost forgot, you can build a druid entirely around summoning as well, with the right feats. Pretty effective character, but has issues at extremely high levels, when SNA9 doesn't hack it. So, that is one viable alternative to the wild shape monster muncher.
Tenken 03-15-05, 05:01 PM	Let me confirm, you did say that you can stay as some sort of tiger wildshape all the time and do just fine right? As in, you don't need to rely wildshaping into a dragon or anything?
Snarf 03-15-05, 05:51 PM	Let me confirm, you did say that you can stay as some sort of tiger wildshape all the time and do just fine right? As in, you don't need to rely wildshaping into a dragon or anything? Yep, my druid used tiger then dire tiger as his preferred combat forms until level 24. You'll do fine that way, with the right spells backing you up. You can get some serious goodies by picking up Exalted Wild Shape and Dragon Wild Shape but neither is truly essential, as you get Shapehange at 17th and eventually epic feats which are better, if you play into epic. Part of the power of a shape-shifting character is being able to take the right form for the right situation, so tiger won't always be your best choice...but nine times out of ten, it'll be fine for any given battle.
Tenken 03-15-05, 05:55 PM	Part of the power of a shape-shifting character is being able to take the right form for the right situation, so tiger won't always be your best choice...but nine times out of ten, it'll be fine for any given battle. Yep, I understand that part. I mean, if I needed to fly, I wouldn't use a tiger.. anyway, that's cool, thanks. If you happen to have your build, or know of a similar build for it, let me know, coz I wouldn't know what feats to take really. I'll start from scratch, but it'd be nice to see an already fleshed out build.
Moon-Lancer 03-15-05, 08:01 PM	I have to say, that ape stuff is pretty stupid. Unless you’re recreating some Chinese legend about an ape boy, its pure roll playing, and it think it gives druids a bad name. Apes kill the druid mood in my opinion. I don’t think it’s really cool, and I think anyone that uses that form for eq should role play the heck out of it and see what they think then… Snarf= :thumbsup:
Snarf 03-15-05, 11:03 PM	Well, it's cool to see that others feel the way I do about the ape thing :) Since you asked, here is Esk of Ehlonna. I originally played him as a straight druid to 21st, and hoped to pick up Lion of Talisid afterwards. Once we hit epic, our DM allowed us to "re-envision" our characters, as a zillion expansion books had come out since they were first created at GenCon 2000. So, here is the current version of Esk, taking advantage of the newer material. You'll notice that many of his feats were "investments for the future" but that conceptual approach agrees with the way he was originally built, so I'm not playing one of those cute end products that wouldn't have survived to high level (I did have Improved Initiative though, and obviously no flaws). Esk is a NG human with strangely polar stat rolls, they started as: Str: 9 Dex: 10 Con: 10 (man was I happy when 3.5 let my HP change in Wild Shape) Int: 14 Wis: 18 Cha: 18 [Human: Track, Flaw: Practiced Spellcaster, Flaw: Quicken Spell] 1: Druid 1 Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy [Nymph's Kiss] 2: Druid 2 Woodland Stride 3: Druid 3 Trackless Step [Favored of the Companions] 4: Druid 4 Resist Nature's Lure 5: Druid 5 Wild Shape (1/day) 6: Druid 6 Wild Shape (2/day) [Natural Spell] 7: Druid 7 Wild Shape (3/day) 8: Druid 8 Wild Shape (Large) 9: Lion of Talisid 1 Lion's Courage [Leadership] 10: Lion of Talisid 2 Scent 11: Lion of Talisid 3 12: Lion of Talisid 4 Wild Shape (4/day) [Twin Spell, Bonus: Exalted Companion] 13: Lion of Talisid 5 Lion's Pounce, Wild Shape (Tiny) 14: Lion of Talisid 6 Wild Shape (Plant) 15: Lion of Talisid 7 Lion's Swiftness, [Cold Energy Substitution] 16: Lion of Talisid 8 Wild Shape (5/day) 17: Nature's Warrior 1 Claws of the Grizzly, Wild Shape (Huge) 18: Nature's Warrior 2 Wild Shape (Elemental 1/day) [Cold Energy Admixture] 19: Nature's Warrior 3 Armor of the Crocodile 20: Nature's Warrior 4 Wild Shape (6/day, Elemental 2/day) <epic> 21: Nature's Warrior 5 Water's Flow [Epic: Gargantuan Wild Shape] 22: Warshaper 1 Morphic Immunities, Morphic Weapons 23: Warshaper 2 Morphic Body 24: Druid 9 Venom Immunity, Wild Shape (Huge Elemental 3/day) [Epic: Magical Beast Wild Shape] <future plan> 25: Lion of Talisid 9 26: Lion of Talisid 10 Leonal's Roar, Wild Shape (7/day) 27: Epic Lion of Talisid 11 [Epic: Dragon Wild Shape] 28: Epic Lion of Talisid 12 29: Epic Lion of Talisid 13 30: Epic Lion of Talisid 14 Wild Shape (8/day) [Epic: Improved Metamagic, Bonus Epic: Improved Metamagic] That's a pretty unconventional set of feat choices, by the CO standards, but the result is quite nice in epic play :cool:
Tenken 03-15-05, 11:22 PM	What cohort did you get with your Leadership feat? Didn't realize anyone used Nature's Warrior.. gotta look at that one... EDIT: I didn't see you take Practiced Spellcaster as one of your feats. You don't mind the loss of spellcasting progression for taking Nature's Warrior?
Snarf 03-15-05, 11:32 PM	What cohort did you get with your Leadership feat? Didn't realize anyone used Nature's Warrior.. gotta look at that one... EDIT: I didn't see you take Practiced Spellcaster as one of your feats. You don't mind the loss of spellcasting progression for taking Nature's Warrior? My cohort is...fun rather than optimized :) He's a gnoll ranger/rogue, which was actually my previous character. These days he doesn't eat people any more, in fact he's a completely rehabilitated as a Stalker of Kharash. I took Nature's Warrior primarily to get that +16 BAB by 20th level, and for the +5 AC in Wild Shape. The other abilities are just icing on the cake. Dividing the levels up that way also works out great for saving throws, which change into the epic progression after 20th. Esk's Fort and Will saves are insane. I took Practiced Spellcaster as one of the two feats I got at first level for taking flaws. The flaws I chose give me a penalty to str/dex/con checks (no big deal) and -4 to spot/listen. Most people would have chosen the -1 to ranged attacks instead, but I had roleplaying reasons for those choices.
Tenken 03-15-05, 11:46 PM	I wonder if it'd be worth it to switch out 2 levels of LoT and take Warshaper earlier. You have practiced spellcaster anyway, so you'd still be at 20th level caster... your other abilities will suffer though.. think it's worth it for the extra damage and fast healing?
Snarf 03-15-05, 11:56 PM	I wonder if it'd be worth it to switch out 2 levels of LoT and take Warshaper earlier. You have practiced spellcaster anyway, so you'd still be at 20th level caster... your other abilities will suffer though.. think it's worth it for the extra damage and fast healing? It's very tempting, but there are several problems with that. You'd lose access to your higher level spells until later levels, which hurts a lot when you're advancing. Also, your BAB and saves would both take a hit. Having +16 BAB at 20th is the only way to get that 4th melee attack, which many druids don't care about, but my druid often fights in a Shapechange form that can wield weapons (Leonal Guardinal). The 8/8/4 arrangement I used is mathematically optimized at 20th level, because of the way BAB and saves progress. I know it hurts to be so close yet so far from that Warshaper goodness, but unless you delay Warshaper till epic, you really hurt both the melee and magical prowess of your character. It also hurts your Wild Shape HD cap, even in epic, although I feel that the +4 Str +4 Con essentially make up for that. I like to cut Warshaper off at 2nd level as a druid, because I feel that is the optimal trade-off. It's my one exception to "never multiclass a druid into something that isn't druidic."
Tenken 03-16-05, 12:11 AM	Quick question, where are you seeing the Leonal Guardinal shape from? I don't see the monster in BoED listed... EDIT: Go figure, it's in MM...
Snarf 03-16-05, 12:14 AM	Quick question, where are you seeing the Leonal Guardinal shape from? I don't see the monster in BoED listed... Yeah, they screwed up that index. It's in the MM under Guardinal. It could be argued that the Angels are better combat forms in some ways, but Leonal is more of Esk's style...especially when advanced to Large size :D Plus that Lay on Hands ability has saved my tail more times than I can count.
Tenken 03-16-05, 12:24 AM	Yeah, they screwed up that index. It's in the MM under Guardinal. It could be argued that the Angels are better combat forms in some ways, but Leonal is more of Esk's style...especially when advanced to Large size :D Plus that Lay on Hands ability has saved my tail more times than I can count. I'm getting all confused now.. where are you seeing Lay on Hands?
Snarf 03-16-05, 03:41 AM	I'm getting all confused now.. where are you seeing Lay on Hands? Check the Guardinal category...some groupings of creatures have shared abilities. Guardinals are one example of that. Same with Angels, Demons, etc.
shanizar 03-16-05, 04:50 AM	Didn't read the whole thread, a terrible sin really. And it seems the focus is off the animal from the Wild Cohort feat, but I'll say this anyway. The animal you get isn't an animal companion, so any feat/spell that would work only on an animal companion doesn't... It's a cohort like from leadership. Of course, this might mean it can be awakened and still be a cohort :)
Tenken 03-16-05, 09:21 AM	Check the Guardinal category...some groupings of creatures have shared abilities. Guardinals are one example of that. Same with Angels, Demons, etc. Ah, I found it. Dang, okay, cool. Another (and probably not the last :p) question. Did you take the Lion of Talsid prc just for flavor, or did you actually think that it was beneficial for you to take it instead of going straight druid? Was it worth the abilities you lose if you had gone straight druid?
Zeffan the Fighting Man 03-16-05, 09:27 AM	Ok, I'm finally going to say it. IMNSHO, Legendary Ape human-equipment-wearing druids are lame. If I see one more post about someone's dorky ape-boy wearing fullplate while riding on their pet triceratops I'm going to scream. D&D is a roleplaying game, and druids are too inherently cool a concept to be subjected to such nonsense purely for some mathematical combat advantage. Unless you worship the goddess of dinosaur-riding apes or something. :) :clap: :clap: :clap: I've said it before...I'll say it again...Snarf, you ROCK! :w00t: :bow: :dancin: Have a cookie! :cookie: Have two! :cookie: :cookie: Zeff
Snarf 03-16-05, 05:12 PM	Ah, I found it. Dang, okay, cool. Another (and probably not the last :p) question. Did you take the Lion of Talsid prc just for flavor, or did you actually think that it was beneficial for you to take it instead of going straight druid? Was it worth the abilities you lose if you had gone straight druid? That's an excellent question. Personally, I feel it was a close call, but I believe that a LoT druid (with levels taken the way I took them) edges out a straight druid. You lose 2 HD from Wild Shape (painful) and don't advance Wild Empathy (no big deal). You gain a ton of neat stuff, notably Pounce at will (think pouncing dragon) and your saving throws benefit too. Also, you gain a PrC you want to take to 10th, at which point you can start raking in (heh) epic bonus feats. This makes it less painful to take other PrCs because you don't have to march druid to 20th to get those epic bonus feats. Of course, I would have taken this PrC anyway, as it fits Esk to a T. In comparing the LoT Esk and the non-LoT Esk, I prefer the LoT version in a fight. They're very close in ability though, so if you don't want to go LoT, you'll still end up with a great character. I've said it before...I'll say it again...Snarf, you ROCK! :w00t: :bow: :dancin: Hehe, thanks Zeff! :ayyyy!:
Snarf 03-16-05, 05:18 PM	Didn't read the whole thread, a terrible sin really. And it seems the focus is off the animal from the Wild Cohort feat, but I'll say this anyway. The animal you get isn't an animal companion, so any feat/spell that would work only on an animal companion doesn't... It's a cohort like from leadership. Of course, this might mean it can be awakened and still be a cohort :) That's an excellent point, which brings up some interesting possibilities...if it could advance as an animal (from your levels) and as a character (from the XP it starts to gain) simultaneously, it might go from insufficiently powerful to too powerful. I would suspect that once Awakened, it would have to be treated as a regular cohort (requiring the Leadership feat), as it becomes a fully intelligent, sentient creature. But if your DM feels otherwise, you could end up with one scary tiger barbarian.
Tenken 03-16-05, 05:53 PM	What is "awakened"?
Snarf 03-16-05, 11:45 PM	What is "awakened"? See the Awaken spell in the PHB.