Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ravenmore 01-29-07, 02:40 AM	I love two weapon fighting. I think it's one of the coolest ways to melee in the game, but the more I think about two weapon fighting, the more I start to wonder "what are the best weapons to fight with in both hands?" So, that's the question I pose to the optimization board. What are the best weapons to scrap with when two weapon fighting? All books are allowed. I'm just curious to know
PhoenixInferno 01-29-07, 02:43 AM	"Cool"? Yeah, TWF is "teh ub@rness" but it fools too many people into thinking its actually good. I like Light Maces because of Lightning Mace (Complete Warrior).
Grave 01-29-07, 02:44 AM	Daggers are great (especially when mixed with the Shadow Blade Feat and the Bloodclaw Master PrC). -Grave & Co.
Dr. Benway 01-29-07, 02:45 AM	As long as you got the feats the spend, the Double-Bastard sword build is pretty hot. It is fairly feat intensive tho: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword Two Weapon Fighting Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (complete adventurer) Equals: Slicey Dicey nastiness. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
progresslevel9 01-29-07, 02:55 AM	This may have even been a sample build of Phoenix Inferno's at some point... Basically, consider the fact that Morningstars count as both bludgeoning and piercing weapons...at the same time. thusly, you can stack piercing and bludgeoning weapon mastery on top of each other, focus, and specialization, for +5 to hit/+6 to damage. You'll need oversized twf to do this decently, though. Also, check a look at the Skewer and Pulverize foe feats from Champions of Ruin, which give an extra 1d6 damage on each hit after the first, from a piercing or bludgeoning weapon, respectively. Stacking again, thanks to the morningstar, which means that each hit after the first, will be doing an extra 2d6 damage. Pretty nice. The morningstar is normally a pretty vanilla weapon, to be sure...but these feat combinations emphasize, to me, just how much it sucks to get hit by a hefty iron weight covered in rail-road spikes. That being, a lot. Other than that, anything that works with the Swashbuckler's level 3 ability or the Shadow Blade feat is fine, as stated...something that works with both is just nasty. Edit: if you can afford the feat sink, Kukri's can get quite nasty when coupled with Improved Critical, Stormguard Warrior, and the Blood in the Water stance. Consider, you threaten on 15-20, which CAN trigger off of a stormguard touch...and for each threat you get, you get a cumulative +1 to attack and damage.
PhoenixInferno 01-29-07, 03:12 AM	This may have even been a sample build of Phoenix Inferno's at some point... Basically, consider the fact that Morningstars count as both bludgeoning and piercing weapons...at the same time. thusly, you can stack piercing and bludgeoning weapon mastery on top of each other, focus, and specialization, for +5 to hit/+6 to damage. You'll need oversized twf to do this decently, though.It was, but I asked CustServ about that - the bonuses from MWM don't stack like that. Still kinda nice to get access to both Crushing Strike/Driving Attack, but not quite as nice as I thought. Also, check a look at the Skewer and Pulverize foe feats from Champions of Ruin, which give an extra 1d6 damage on each hit after the first, from a piercing or bludgeoning weapon, respectively.This still works though.
Phoenix00 01-29-07, 03:17 AM	There is a great combo that isnt' TWF per say, but gets alot of hits with I believe it was light maces, a certain tob manuever, and a feat in PHB2. Sorry about not recalling the details immediately.
PhoenixInferno 01-29-07, 03:19 AM	There is a great combo that isnt' TWF per say, but gets alot of hits with I believe it was light maces, a certain tob manuever, and a feat in PHB2. Sorry about not recalling the details immediately.Probably Avalanche of Blades (the maneuver) and Crushing Strike (the feat). EDIT: Wrong feat.
X-Codes 01-29-07, 03:33 AM	Probably Avalanche of Blades (the maneuver) and Brutal Strike (the feat). I don't see anything particularly good about Brutal Strike, honestly, with or without Avalanche of Blades. Granted you can jack the save DC through the roof, but it's still just the Sickened condition. Anyway, when you get right down to it there are very few weapons that are good to TWF with: 1) Light Mace (Lightning Mace) 2) Short Sword (Shadow Blade) 3) Dagger (Shadow Blade & Bloodclaw Master) 4) Dragonsplits (Power Attack) 5) Unarmed Strikes (hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of things...) 6) Any light weapon opposed by a heavy shield. (High AC more than anything else.) Also, any light weapons that deal two types of damage get an honorable mention for the Flay/Skewer/Pulverize Foe feats, but thats a minor benefit. P.S. No. Dual Bastard Swords is not hotness. It's dramatic over-compensation and blatant AC Cloud imitation. It's neither cool nor practical.
Phoenix00 01-29-07, 03:34 AM	It was Crushing Strike, but thanks Phoenix. Also another good option is the Lighting Mace weapon style feat from Complete Warrior.
X-Codes 01-29-07, 03:53 AM	It was Crushing Strike, but thanks Phoenix. Crushing Strike only works on a full attack action, which does not include Avalanche of Blades. Crushing Strike + Lightning Mace, however, still works.
Dark_beebles 01-29-07, 04:00 AM	Depends on your build..if you can play a DoDis...light maces are the way to go... If non evil use short swords
Ravenmore 01-29-07, 04:04 AM	Ok, don't be to harsh, but what about double ended weapons? Like the two bladed sword still gives you the benefit of fighting with two long swords, but you don't have to buy oversized two weapon fighting feat. Or for that matter, the orc double axe or dwarven urgosh. Why aren't these considered for two weapon fighting?
Neptunehero 01-29-07, 04:27 AM	I'm with the OP on his fondness for twf- despite it's being sub-optimal, I frequently play TWF characters, with varying degrees of success. The weapon combo that worked best for was actually two warmaces (CW), one of them large and Monkey Gripped. It turned out a crapload of damage from my orc, with his high strength. In hindsight, of course, that build was pretty poor. It was only after that campaign that I started getting into the CO boards/mindset; Today, I would never A)Take the fighter levels I took, B)Take Monkey grip C)Waste a feat on EWP. All the same, with weapons that big and a good STR, it's hard not to do solid damage.
Grave 01-29-07, 04:42 AM	TWF definitely has style points, and for some builds, is superior than THF. The problem is that you have to jump through so many hoops and loops to make the darn thing work... Thank the Gods for Shadow Pounce. -Grave & Co.
Edea 01-29-07, 09:11 AM	A Dervish will probably want to double-wield scimitars instead of kukris (class ability).
ChristopherGroves 01-29-07, 09:15 AM	Scimitars is just what I was going to suggest ... plus some double weapons. Ok, just one - the Valenar Scimitar on the Revenant Blade
hogarth 01-29-07, 09:25 AM	A quarterstaff with Shillelagh/Spikes/Brambles cast on it is a decent alternative that doesn't cost a feat.
Prominence 01-29-07, 09:48 AM	The Kusari-Gama would be a nice weapon to retain reach - something TWF builds sorely lack compared to THF. Another nice option is the usual Spiked Gauntlet. Light weapons are startingly easy to disarm.
Pinky's brain 01-29-07, 09:52 AM	Anything which does ability damage (wounding) or even better ... energy damage (Life-Drinker).
moriarty13 01-29-07, 10:07 AM	I think if you go TWF then you really need to go with Oversized TWF. Use a pair of one-handed (not light) weapons and get your full strength bonus to both. If you are in a group where you often have bonuses to hit because of buffs, then using scimitars isn't bad because you get extra chances to crit. Basically though, the weapon feats from CWar and personal preference are the only things that really come into play. Heavy picks for the rare huge crit? Scimitars for consistent, small crits? Short spears for throwing when necessary? The CWar weapon feat that lets you knock an opponent prone when you hit with both weapons looks pretty decent too depending on the opponents you face...
HoshiAdam 01-29-07, 11:02 AM	Oversize TWF doesn't give you full strength bonus to your off hand, as that is not dependent on weapon size, but on whether your weapon is off-hand, main-hand, or you are using it two-handed. Oversize TWF does improve your Power Attack ratio 1-for-1 with your off hand, as Power Attack is keyed off the weapon being light, one-handed, or being used two-handed. If you have ways of improving your Power Attack ratio (Favored Enemy Power Attack) and still two-weapon fighting, it is worth it. Double weapons count as a one-handed weapon and light weapon when two-weapon fighting. That means you can't add Power Attack damage to the off-hand end, and you only get half strength bonus damage. For some things, this makes them sub-optimal.
ChristopherGroves 01-29-07, 11:15 AM	Double weapons count as a one-handed weapon and light weapon when two-weapon fighting. That means you can't add Power Attack damage to the off-hand end, and you only get half strength bonus damage. For some things, this makes them sub-optimal. Again, Valenar Double Scimitar when combined w/ the Revenant Blade. It's awesomeness is awesome as it allows you to use each end as if it were a two handed weapon.
Elderich 01-29-07, 12:13 PM	kusari gama is both light and doubal ended, so bludgioning and slashing as you choose, plus reach. I think Caelic was goning to do a chain version of Jack b quick. Speaking of which, i gues sword and hand axe is about the ultimate.
CrimsonEric 01-29-07, 12:44 PM	Only slightly off topic: Is it possible to use TWF with wands? Im fairly sure not, but I cant find a written rule anywhere.
blooddemon 01-29-07, 01:06 PM	Yes its in complete arcane, dual wand wielder. At least I think is the name, you expend extra charges to use both wands.
BigRobC101 01-29-07, 01:11 PM	Id say go with oversized TWFing so any weapon in your off hand counts as light for TWFing, then get a pair of dire picks, mmmmm critacual
Surreal 01-29-07, 02:51 PM	I favour the Dragonsplits (MM4). Variable damage type and crit range, but most important is their strange rules text that counts them as light for purposes of finesse and TWF, but are still considered 1H weapons so you can power attack with each hand.
eRaz0r 01-29-07, 03:00 PM	TWF is good when you add damage dice to each attack, such as skirmish, sneak attack, or ranger enemies. The best weapon : the one you get to add extra damage to :) A scout/dervish (maybe Tempest) build could be quite scary with two scimitars. Possibly some Swordsage with Desert Wind Discipline as well. Another route might be Swordsage with Shadow Blades and some rogue levels so you can force a flat-footed condition on your target and make a full sneak attack on them. That would also be quite lethal, I expect. Kukris or daggers do well for that.
thorian 01-29-07, 07:23 PM	I remember a dual shield wielder that was decent, but I can't remember the thread. Another option is to use a greatsword in your hands and TWF with boot blades.
FaerellG 01-29-07, 07:41 PM	I've yet to try this, but pick up Improved shield bash and TWF with a shield (bashing) and a 1 handed weapon. You get high AC and your attacks in. Toss in Shield spikes too if you really want. This concept is highly expensive though.
GaffeR 01-29-07, 07:42 PM	Daggers are great (especially when mixed with the Shadow Blade Feat and the Bloodclaw Master PrC). -Grave & Co. Agreed. Full Dex and full Str mods to damage with no penalty for TWFing. Good times. Edit: Those or the Valenar double scimitar with Revenant Blade.
MikeN 01-29-07, 07:43 PM	Since as a 2wf artist you're relying on extra damage non-related to the actual weapon itself, there really is no "best". In my opinion, you need something that slashes, because Dervish is where the 2-weapon DPS is. "Typical" Dervish build goes something like: Scout5/Swash3/Dervish/whateverelse. But then the question is more about the PrC than it is about the weapon. I've incorporated tripping into Dervishes with either 2-Blade Ax or kamas, using the Exotic Weapon Master PrC to give me trip with the items so the bonus from Dervish gets applied to your attempt :cool: If my DM let me use the Revenant Blade PrC I might try getting the Planar Shepherd past him as well...but that's just me maybe :devil:
Cael 01-29-07, 08:21 PM	Shortswords <- because of the Sunsword in the DMG :D Scimitars <- because of Dervish and Tempest (TWF at no penalties...!)
StagEverwilde 01-29-07, 09:35 PM	somthing i havent tried yet is the elf with light blade/thin blade combo. There is something about finessing 2 weapons with an 18-20 crit and 1 with a d6 and the other with a d8 seems cool to me. a rouge or dualist type would be all kinds of cool.
ThePrivateer 01-29-07, 09:59 PM	Only slightly off topic: Is it possible to use TWF with wands? Im fairly sure not, but I cant find a written rule anywhere. Well yes, but my DM adjucation would be to treat them as improvised clubs. :P
Tellish_of_Ket 01-29-07, 10:09 PM	Monkey Grip improved crit falchion oversized twf twf imp twf greater twf blah blah blah...
Tellish_of_Ket 01-29-07, 10:11 PM	ewp: whip twf finesses expertise imp trip same other series of twf feats, take a level of ew-master.
Aiden_Bautista 01-29-07, 10:39 PM	Today, I would never take Monkey grip I'm curious. I suppose I'm a fresh player, with only two years and all, but why not Monkey Grip? I like it pretty good, but I could be reading it wrong. Hardly an optimized build or some mega Pun-Pun or what have you, but I like: Goliath + Huge Greataxe/sword + Monkey Grip + Greater Powerful Charge = Good Stuff. Maybe add some Power Attack and Leap Attack.
Adroit 01-29-07, 10:43 PM	I'm curious. I suppose I'm a fresh player, with only two years and all, but why not Monkey Grip? I like it pretty good, but I could be reading it wrong. Hardly an optimized build or some mega Pun-Pun or what have you, but I like: Goliath + Huge Greataxe/sword + Monkey Grip + Greater Powerful Charge = Good Stuff. Maybe add some Power Attack and Leap Attack. Unfortunately, Monkey Grip does not stack with Powerful Build.
GaffeR 01-29-07, 10:44 PM	I'm curious. I suppose I'm a fresh player, with only two years and all, but why not Monkey Grip? I like it pretty good, but I could be reading it wrong. Hardly an optimized build or some mega Pun-Pun or what have you, but I like: Goliath + Huge Greataxe/sword + Monkey Grip + Greater Powerful Charge = Good Stuff. Maybe add some Power Attack and Leap Attack. You can power attack for 4 points extra damage and take -2 to hit, which is normally more than Monkey Grip gets you. You also can remove the penalty to hit if need be. Also, you aren't limited to rare large weapons (if you find some magic weapons). Greater powerful charge is also kinda lame compared to shock trooper + leap attack + power attack.
Aiden_Bautista 01-29-07, 10:49 PM	Ah. My bad. Thanks guys. Back to the drawing board.
Dark_and_Stormy 01-29-07, 10:54 PM	A pair of Broadblade Shortswords?
Novabomb 01-29-07, 10:57 PM	Im just surprised it too so long for the scimitars to get mentioned. Am I the only one who thinks the dervish was built to use dual scimitars? If your going to dual wield the same weapon, be dervish. If your going to dual wield different weapons tempest might be useful.
GaffeR 01-29-07, 11:04 PM	Im just surprised it too so long for the scimitars to get mentioned. Am I the only one who thinks the dervish was built to use dual scimitars? I like mine with a Glaive or non-reach slashing two hander.
Dr. Benway 01-29-07, 11:44 PM	Another nasty combo is the greatsword/armor spikes thing. Totally legal and you get 2d6/1d6 slash/pierce setup without having to spend a feat on an exotic weapon like boot blades. Very nice if you get enlarged or are a powerful build race since that ups it to 3d6/1d8. I did this with my pre-eratta tiger shifter ranger...he was the smackdown. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Elemental_Elf 01-30-07, 02:27 AM	I've always wanted to try using 2 Heavy Spiked Shields! Then have the character constantly refer to himself as 'The Wall' in any and all dialogs.
Adolph_Kheebler 01-30-07, 02:59 AM	Call me a purist but I've always liked the dex based elf fighting with Elven Thin Blades. Only need one feat to use (Improved Weapon Familiarity) and you're set unlike using rapiers or scimitars where you also need Oversize TWF.
progresslevel9 01-30-07, 03:36 AM	A pair of Broadblade Shortswords? I was thinking of those, I just couldn't remember the name. Alternatively, just play a Diopsid, from Dragon Compendium, and DW spiked chains, with karmic strike, robilar's, and double hit. Or Goliath Greathammers. Or Scythes. Or whatever you feel like. Because the Diopsid are teh win, in cicada form.
bestone 01-30-07, 03:47 AM	Ugh i cant quite think of the name kusari-yama? or gama? or something li ke that its a chain with a sickle on the end one handed LIGHT REACH! weapon! that can also be used adjacent its in the dmg and oriental adventures, it kicks the bones! Did i see something in this thread earlier about a two shield wielding build? what would be the point in that, you only get one shield ac bonus, no? that would make knights too cheesy otherwise
Bopple 01-30-07, 04:15 AM	Double-bladed sword(most common double weapon) or Valenar double scimitar(for Eberron) For Flurry ability of Exotic Weapon Master
BadCatMan 01-30-07, 07:28 AM	As many as you can: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=522656 Basically, if you can't decide on a favourite weapon, take Tempest's Versatility and the racial weapon feat duplication feats from Races Of Eberron to become a master of several. It's not very good mind you, and probably lots of more recent stuff could outdo it, but it's my own odd pet power-building effort.
Sang-Drax 01-30-07, 08:41 AM	I kinda like the High Sword, Low Axe feat. Attack with sword and axe and gain free trip attempt, followed by an extra attack due to Improved Trip. Nice, but requires high Str (trip, damage) and Dex (2wf). There's a wonderful synergy with Wolf Fang Strike, too. Btw, most weapon style feats benefit a lot from Tempest's weapon versatilty (though I don't think the requirements are worth it). Double Weapons have the following pros: 1. Revenant Blade 2. Exotic Weapon = flurry 3. Revenant Blade + EWM = monstrous flurry 4. A monk can flurry with a double sword with Double Steel Strike 5. A kensai duplicates the enchant weapon ability 6. You're a spellcaster and, for some reason (maybe because of Divine Might), don't want to go 2-hander style. Wielding 2 weapons would prevent you from using somatic components. Of course, with Complete Mage out there, we have Somatic Weaponry, which solves the problem. 7. It can be used as a 2-handed weapon if the need arises (say, when you only have a standard action) without the need to drop a weapon.
Bearded_baddy 02-01-07, 12:07 AM	I would have to say that I agree with Cael's post about the Sunblades. I am currently playing a dwarf rogue who is an TWF undead killing machine in the Age of Worms adventure path and I am looking to get my hands on two Sunblades as soon as possible. I have often wondered whether it was more important to have high crit multipliers or to crit more often with a bigger crit range when using two weapons? Or should one try to mix and match? I also agree with adding more damage to each hit with sneak attack, or skirmish and Complete Scoundrel makes this a lot easier to accomplish with some of their feats, but I don't always see it being practical with a feat intensive TWF build. Any more thoughts on the actual best weapons to use - from an optimization stand point. Or thoughts on why some weapons should stand out more than others. Perhaps some ideas on why the game designers made double ended weapons when in reality no one seems to like them very much. I haven't seen too many Double Ended Sword builds on the board, or Dwarven Urgosh users. Are these weapons just not optimizable? Just my two cp.
|)ar|{ 02-01-07, 12:35 AM	My last TWF was a fighter/warblade/exotic weapon master Being able to switch my feats to any number of useful exotic weapons was very useful. Because sometimes you want a dwarven waraxe and sometimes you want a spiked chain. Sadly, overall, I'd have to say that daggers are the best duel weild weapon, but only because there are so many PsC's for dagger builds. D.Waraxe+lt. weapon with a dwarf ranger is cool because its free. And, as mentioned earlier, Quarterstaffs are crazy good on a druid will the right cheating spells like greater mighty whalip.
Swrdsinger 02-01-07, 12:41 AM	It may be sub-optimal, but I defy anyone to say that double wielding bastard swords isn't cool. And as far as practicality, if Musashi did it, can we really argue?
Grave 02-01-07, 01:24 AM	If you're talking about Miyamoto Musashi, then his Niten Style involved wielding a katana (aka. bastard sword) and a wakizashi (aka. short sword). Furthermore, though he developed a TW fighting style, he fought all of his duels with a single weapon (usually a boken). -Grave & Co.
Shinazazi 02-01-07, 01:25 AM	With 10 levels in kensai (after monk 7 or improved unarmed strike and Superior unarmed strike feat to get monk like damage with any class) Unarmed fists (Both based on kensai signature weapon rules) can have up to +10 worth of enhancements. Add the amulet from savage species that allows you to and even more enchantents that affect your unarmed damage and they seem to be major contenders. Provided this stacks for effects you should be able to make the deadliest fists int he west!
Bearded_baddy 02-01-07, 01:33 AM	Shinazazi - you could call your build Mike "The One Hit Wonder" Tyson. Cue high pitched voice: "I am one bad mother-f'er!"
smage 02-01-07, 01:47 AM	Did i see something in this thread earlier about a two shield wielding build? what would be the point in that, you only get one shield ac bonus, no? that would make knights too cheesy otherwise Might only get the shield AC bonus from one shield (whichever was highest), but you could have all manner of shield special properties added after the initial +1 enhancement. If that isn't the point of doing it, then I don't know what is (unless aesthetic?)...
ForestBjorn 02-01-07, 01:56 AM	Be a goliath. Can anyone say double spiked chains?
Wizard Random 02-01-07, 01:59 AM	A regular basterd sword in the main hand and a Sunblade in the offhand. No pen's beside the normal -2/-2 and you get the BS damage with each weapon not to mention some nice extras vs undead and such.
PhaedrusXY 02-01-07, 02:00 AM	Monk fists. They count as light weapons, but can still benefit from Power Attack, and you can stack Flurry and TWF for even more attacks than a normal TWFer gets. And they can benefit from spells that target either manufacturesd weapons or natural attacks.
X-Codes 02-01-07, 03:20 AM	Be a goliath. Can anyone say double spiked chains? No, you can't say double spiked chains because YOU CAN'T DUAL WIELD TWO-HAND WEAPONS! There is not ANY SINGLE feat or ANY COMBINATION of feats in the game that allows it! The above statement, along with 90% of sanity, does not apply to Eberron or any material within that campaign setting.
bestone 02-01-07, 03:45 AM	No, you can't say double spiked chains because YOU CAN'T DUAL WIELD TWO-HAND WEAPONS! There is not ANY SINGLE feat or ANY COMBINATION of feats in the game that allows it! The above statement, along with 90% of sanity, does not apply to Eberron or any material within that campaign setting. Sure, but then if you go and actually read in the weapon size section of the phb, you'll see that if you decrease the size of a two-handed weapon, you can wield it in one hand. Example, a large creature can wield medium sized two-handed weapons in one hand...... Even a human could wield a spiked chain in one hand, if its a small spiked chain..... maybey you should go and read that part?
magmer2 02-01-07, 08:39 AM	I would go with morning stars. There are a pair of feats in champions of ruin that adds d6 to damage for each hit after the first. There is one for each weapon type, but the slashing one only adds a point of damage so its out.
Irving 02-01-07, 08:45 AM	In the campaign I'm playing, there are some "fighting knives" available as exotic weapons... light, slashinging, 19-20x3 critical. Worth the Exotic Weapon Prof feat for a TWF? (I'm still kicking myself that I didn't pick the race that has these babies as martial weapons. Eh, that's what happens when you make a character in 10 minutes...)
X-Codes 02-01-07, 09:10 AM	maybey you should go and read that part? Maybe you should learn to spell "maybe." Once you get spelling down you can move on to logic and figure out that the rules you pointed out are irrelevant. Monkey Grip and Powerful Build do nothing to allow you to wield two-hand weapons of your size in one hand. They let you wield weapons of larger size with less effort, thats it. For a medium-size character, that means: Large Longsword: Two-Handed without Monkey Grip, One-Handed With. Medium-Size Greatsword: Two-Handed without Monkey Grip, Two-Handed With.
HoshiAdam 02-01-07, 09:12 AM	Sure, but then if you go and actually read in the weapon size section of the phb, you'll see that if you decrease the size of a two-handed weapon, you can wield it in one hand. Example, a large creature can wield medium sized two-handed weapons in one hand...... Even a human could wield a spiked chain in one hand, if its a small spiked chain..... maybey you should go and read that part? A character only gets reach from a reach weapon if it is appropriately sized for them.
Pinky's brain 02-01-07, 10:53 AM	Where does it say that? There are no rules for reach with inappropriately sized weapons in any 3.5 books AFAIK. (Savage Species has a rule though, +/- 5 feet reach per size category).
hogarth 02-01-07, 11:06 AM	Where does it say that? There are no rules for reach with inappropriately sized weapons in any 3.5 books AFAIK. (Savage Species has a rule though, +/- 5 feet reach per size category). In the D&D FAQ it claims that undersized reach weapons don't provide reach (although oversized weapons do). But is a medium-sized spiked chain undersized for a medium-sized goliath?
Elderich 02-01-07, 12:32 PM	No, you can't say double spiked chains because YOU CAN'T DUAL WIELD TWO-HAND WEAPONS! There is not ANY SINGLE feat or ANY COMBINATION of feats in the game that allows it! The above statement, along with 90% of sanity, does not apply to Eberron or any material within that campaign setting.The Kusari-Gama in the DMG is BOTH a light weapon and a double weapon. One may dual wield these.
UCsimplyme 02-01-07, 03:43 PM	Here is my twf build from the ToB CO thread. While I considered the Revenant Blade....Giving up the levels of the other classes (and the feats) was just too big of a sacrifice. Let me know your thoughts. Title: Valenar Ancestral Warblade Race: Valenar Elf Build: Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 5/Master of Nine 5 Feats: Bonus feats are in parenthesis 1. Two Weapon Fighting 1. (Valenar Double Scimitar) -Double Weapon; 1d6/1d6, 18-20/x2; counts as a martial weapon for valenar elves 3. Weapon Focus (Valenar Double Scimitar) 5. (Blind-Fight) 6. Improved Two Weapon Fighting 9. Adaptive Style 9. (Improved Initiative) 12. Dodge 15. Improved Unarmed Strike 18. Greater Two Weapon Fighting Advancement: Levels 1 to 10 are Warblade, 11-15 are Ancestral Blade, and 16-20 are Master of Nine. Notable Class Abilities: -Amazing TWF: 7 base attacks, 9 with Dancing Mongoose, and 11 with Raging Mongoose -7 to 11 attacks+Aura of Triumph=Good healing (4 hps per successful attack; max of 44 per round without haste) -Good diversity of maneuvers for all situations -Ability to by-pass all DR as a swift action -Any Devotion/Diamond maneuver 3/day -Dual Stance for up to 10 rounds a day -Blood in the Water(Cumulative +1 hit/dmg everytime you crit; last the entire encounter)+[18-20] Crit Range weapon+11 Attacks=Win -+2 Attack/+7 Damage on all Strikes -Skills: Maxxed Jump, Tumble, Balance, Concentration Stances: <Level Aquired><Stance><School;level;prereqs> 1st: Blood in the Water [Tiger;1st;-] 4th: Stonefoot Stance [Stone;1st;-] 10th: Hearing the Air [Diamond;5th;2] 15th: Aura of Triumph [Devotion;6th;2] 17th: Supreme Blade Parry [Iron;8th;3] 19th: Immortal Fortitude [Devotion;8th;3] Maneuvers: <Level Aquired><Stance>[School;level;prereqs] 1st: Wolf Fang Strike [Tiger;1st;-] -Trade @12th for Iron Heart Endurance [Iron;6th;2] 1st: Leading the Attack [White;1st;-] -Trade @4th for Action Before Thought [Diamond;2nd;-] -Trade @16th for Diamond Defense [Diamond;8th;-] 1st: Steel Wind [Iron;1st;-] -Trade @8th for Lighting Recovery [Iron;4th;2] 2nd: Moment of Perfect Mind [Diamond;1st;-] -Trade @10th for Dancing Mongoose [Tiger;5th;2] 3rd: Battle Leader's Charge [White;2nd;1] -Trade @20th for Adamantite Hurricane [Iron;8th;3] 5th: Iron Heart Surge [Iron;3rd;1] 7th: Mithril Tornado [Iron;4th;2] 9th: Pouncing Charge [Tiger;5th;2] 11th: Crusader's Strike [Devotion;1st;-] -Trade @18th for Strike of Righteous Vigor [Devotion;9th;3] 13th: Entangling Blade [Devotion;4th;1] 15th: Rallying Strike [Devotion;6th;2] 16th: Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip [Tiger;8th;3] 16th: Raging Mongoose [Tiger;8th;3] 17th: Feral Death Blow [Tiger;9th;4] 18th: Shadow Blink [Shadow;7th;-] 18th: Cloak of Deception [Shadow;2nd;-] 19th: Death in the Dark [Shadow;7th;-] 20th: Inferno Blade [Desert; 7th;-] 20th: One with Shadow [Shadow;8th;3] Let me know what you think :) (this was originally posted here:http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683941&page=29)
Edea 02-01-07, 04:34 PM	Thanks to Dragon Magazine, as evidenced by tsuyoshikentsu's recent thread, I think we should at least mention the braid blade as an...interesting alternative to traditional TWF.
FlimFlam 02-01-07, 05:17 PM	My favorite weapons to use for TWF is to have a Medium sized character TWF with Small sized Spiked Chains. With the sizing rules, it changes them from two-handed weapons to one-handed weapons, yet they do not lose their Reach capabilities. You will be taking some hefty penalities to use them however. -2 for using an inappropriately sized weapon -4 for dual wielding one-handed weapons To offset this, you could take Weapon Focus (obvious choice) and pump up your Dex to take advantage of Weapon Finesse which would still apply to the Spiked Chains. Now that I think about it, this would make a good Swordsage, as Spiked Chain is one of the Shadow Hand prefered weapons. Combine this with Shadow Blade for some Dex synergy goodness...
hogarth 02-01-07, 05:46 PM	My favorite weapons to use for TWF is to have a Medium sized character TWF with Small sized Spiked Chains. With the sizing rules, it changes them from two-handed weapons to one-handed weapons, yet they do not lose their Reach capabilities. It doesn't say so in the rules, but the D&D FAQ explicitly states that a medium-sized creature using a small-sized reach weapon does not have reach. Of course, if your DM doesn't care what the FAQ says, you're fine.
Aegeu 02-01-07, 05:57 PM	The Barbed Dagger from CAdv could be an interesting option. It adds 2 to your sneak attack damage. Since most TWF builds use sneak attacks, it would be a Good Thing.
catharz 02-01-07, 07:20 PM	The Kusari-Gama in the DMG is BOTH a light weapon and a double weapon. One may dual wield these. Reach, not double. What a great weapon :)
FlimFlam 02-01-07, 07:29 PM	It doesn't say so in the rules, but the D&D FAQ explicitly states that a medium-sized creature using a small-sized reach weapon does not have reach. Of course, if your DM doesn't care what the FAQ says, you're fine. The FAQ says a lot of things. A lot of which is unsupported by the Core RAW. A lot of times, the FAQ likes to make up with own rules which often conflict with Core RAW. I never know what FAQ rulings I can trust, and which ones I can't :confused:
Elderich 02-02-07, 12:10 PM	Reach, not double. What a great weapon :)Am I confusing it with the Kusari Gama in Oriental adventures? That is double, but is it light?
HoshiAdam 02-02-07, 12:17 PM	Am I confusing it with the Kusari Gama in Oriental adventures? That is double, but is it light? I believe that one was double or reach (but not both at the same time). And finessable. Though I could be thinking of the one from the Rokugan book.
the_narrator 02-02-07, 12:45 PM	My personal favorite would have to be the Longspear+spiked gauntlet, or Bastard sword+spiked gauntlet. Or any other two-hander...plus spiked gauntlet.
HelloRaptor 02-02-07, 01:15 PM	TWF (improved, etc) + Prismatic Burst Kukri + 2 or 3 levels in Wild Mage + Improved Critical Who cares about your actual damage? Every time you crit (15-20) you check on the Prismatic Spray chart.. and you check twice due to the Wild Mage ability, and pick the one you like best. Make sure the creator of the weapons has as good of attributes as possible for the DC. ;D Massive elemental damage? Okey. Save or dies? A couple. SENT TO ANOTHER PLANE? Just plain neat. ;) Okay, it's not the most effective in the world, but it's still pretty funny. I've got a Kobold Duskblade build that works into this. I managed to send two vampires to another plane: One to Elysium, one to Mount Celestia. ;D
Bopple 02-09-07, 09:12 AM	The FAQ says a lot of things. A lot of which is unsupported by the Core RAW. A lot of times, the FAQ likes to make up with own rules which often conflict with Core RAW. I never know what FAQ rulings I can trust, and which ones I can't :confused: Well, that FAQ at least, has quite a reasonable basis for it.
FlimFlam 02-09-07, 09:25 AM	Well, that FAQ at least, has quite a reasonable basis for it. So if a Medium sized character uses a small reach weapon, and the reach gets reduced to 5 feet, I guess that means a medium sized character using a large weapon (such as a large longsword) should gain reach, right?
Outsider829 02-09-07, 09:28 AM	Long ago when I actually played ranger, I always Dual Wielded Shortswords. There light, and are a bit more damaging than daggers.
Bopple 02-09-07, 09:47 AM	So if a Medium sized character uses a small reach weapon, and the reach gets reduced to 5 feet, I guess that means a medium sized character using a large weapon (such as a large longsword) should gain reach, right? No, you can get reach only with a reach weapon of the appropriate size.
Epicweaver 02-09-07, 10:37 AM	Ok, don't be to harsh, but what about double ended weapons? Like the two bladed sword still gives you the benefit of fighting with two long swords, but you don't have to buy oversized two weapon fighting feat. Or for that matter, the orc double axe or dwarven urgosh. Why aren't these considered for two weapon fighting?Double bladed scimitar + Revenant Blade = hotness
Elderich 02-09-07, 01:51 PM	No, you can't say double spiked chains because YOU CAN'T DUAL WIELD TWO-HAND WEAPONS! There is not ANY SINGLE feat or ANY COMBINATION of feats in the game that allows it!I think you can. Please check me on this but don't you just take a -4 on top of the standard TWF penalties?
Elderich 02-09-07, 01:54 PM	No, you can get reach only with a reach weapon of the appropriate size.Unless you have the epic feat. then you may weild a larger weapon and gain reach.
Bard-of-all-trades 02-09-07, 02:08 PM	A tried and true way to go--long sword and short sword. Drow? Go with short sword and dagger (the one that started it all). Fighter to burn some feats? Bastard sword and dagger (a la Strider) or short sword. I have a 16th level Fighter with a Defender Blade bastard sword and Sunblade (sweet combo). Dwarf? Dwarven Waraxe and hand axe. And the quintesential two weapon combo--katana and wakizashi.
jameswilliamogle 02-09-07, 02:27 PM	I like Whip and Short Sword, on my Bard. Not worth spending EWP on the whip, though. He typically will go full-TWF mode, attacking w/ SSword, then 5' step, disarm foe.
smage 02-09-07, 03:13 PM	My personal favorite would have to be the Longspear+spiked gauntlet, or Bastard sword+spiked gauntlet. Or any other two-hander...plus spiked gauntlet. I believe you are thinking of "two-hander plus armor spikes" (which works RAW for TWF, but is abusive), not "two-hander plus spiked gauntlet" (which doesn't work for TWF).
Father Tim 02-09-07, 04:42 PM	Dwarf Fighter/Cleric/Battlesmith/Hammer of Moradin, Oversize TWF, and a pair of self-made Warhammers... Str x1.5 + Wis to main hand, Str + Wis to offhand, power attack with both.
ForestBjorn 02-09-07, 05:59 PM	If your a goliath you can duel weild great axes or spiked chains or any other two handed weapon for that matter.
Yadot 02-09-07, 06:34 PM	If your a goliath you can duel weild great axes or spiked chains or any other two handed weapon for that matter. No you can't. Powerful Build lets you weild a large great axe or a large spiked chain in TWO hands.
Bard-of-all-trades 02-10-07, 03:34 AM	Oops, see below.
Bard-of-all-trades 02-10-07, 03:40 AM	No you can't. Powerful Build lets you weild a large great axe or a large spiked chain in TWO hands. Doesn't Powerful Build say, if it is advantagous for you to be treated as size large, that you gain the benefit as if you were size large? And, can't large creatures wield medium sized two-handed weapons in one hand? So a goliath could wield a medium great axe in one hand and a medium spiked chain in the other or a pair of either weapon, for that matter, as originally mentioned. I like Whip and Short Sword, on my Bard. Not worth spending EWP on the whip, though. He typically will go full-TWF mode, attacking w/ SSword, then 5' step, disarm foe. And why would a Bard need EWP for a whip; don't they get proficiency in it for free?
zod 02-10-07, 08:56 AM	Doesn't Powerful Build say, if it is advantagous for you to be treated as size large, that you gain the benefit as if you were size large? And, can't large creatures wield medium sized two-handed weapons in one hand? So a goliath could wield a medium great axe in one hand and a medium spiked chain in the other or a pair of either weapon, for that matter, as originally mentioned. Why wouldn't you just wield a large battleaxe (2d6) instead of that medium greataxe, and avoid that -2 penalty? :(
mato_hibiki 02-10-07, 12:50 PM	Has anyone mentioned a pair of sunblades yet? Expensive, but useful. I'm planning on using just that with a ranger/tempest in an undead heavy campaign, mwehehehe.
Caelic 02-10-07, 02:19 PM	Has anyone mentioned a pair of sunblades yet? Expensive, but useful. I'm planning on using just that with a ranger/tempest in an undead heavy campaign, mwehehehe. If you'd like a more cost-effective route to the same solution, the basic-model Sun Sword in Expedition to Ravenloft only costs 1,500. It's a +1 bastard sword which can be wielded as a short sword.
Bard-of-all-trades 02-10-07, 03:31 PM	Why wouldn't you just wield a large battleaxe (2d6) instead of that medium greataxe, and avoid that -2 penalty? :( The whole point is for the goliath to dual wield and get more attacks. There will be a penalty if the goliath dual wields a pair of medium two-handed weapons, large one-handed weapons, or small one-handed weapons. Q) And what is the difference in a large battleaxe and a medium great axe? A) Only a 1/2 point of damage on the average: - large battleaxe does 2d6 damage for an average of 7 points per hit. - medium greataxe does 1d12 damage for an average of 6 1/2 points per hit. However, if you meant to ask "Why not wield a large greataxe and avoid the penalty?" I might go for that. The large greataxe gets 3d6 for damage with an average of 10 1/2 points of damage and no penalty to hit. Fewer hits, more damage per hit and better chances of hitting every hit.
Pinky's brain 02-10-07, 03:38 PM	2 undersized Life Drinker great axes (the first 1 size category smaller, the second 2). Even with the penalties to hit you just can't beat negative levels ... just make sure you are immune.
ForestBjorn 02-10-07, 04:27 PM	The reason behind two weapon fighting with 2 spiked chains is taking the double strike feat from the minatures handbook and the stand still from (xph). The would allow for 10 feet around you of ultimate battlefield control. Besides most of my DMs consider the spiked chain to be the most broken weapon ever. Just imagine the sheer DM terror.