Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShubNiggurath 11-29-06, 11:18 AM	The BET: I just got into a bet with the party sorcerer. He plays a human sorcerer 7th specialized on casting direct damage spells (evocation). I bet with him that I can build a 7th level arcane caster with ZERO evocation spells that can defeat encounters better/faster than him. The RULES: The DM liked the bet and said that he is going to build 3 CR 5 encounters for us and we will have to solo them. He said that at least one encounter will involve multiple opponents. We will start all the encounters 1 charge round from the monster(s) and we will have the initiative automatically, but in one encounters we may be surprised (spot check, I guess). Also the setting is a mystery (above/below ground, etc.). We start all 3 encounters at full health/spells. We will play independently and then he will tell to the group what we did, then they will vote for the best caster. Obviously being able to defeat the encounter and not to die will weight heavily on the resulting vote. What I have to work on: Sources: Core+CW+CD+CArc+Mini+MM+MM2 Race: any standard core race. No LA Abilities: 18/16/14/12/10/8 Level: 7th Class: arcane caster. Must be a full caster, but I can take all the PrC I want (in the source) Items: no magic items. All the mundane items we want, but no other living thing with us (no mount, companion, whatever) except the familiar (if you have it) Spells: NO evocation What to do? I was thinking on a conjurer specialist with focus on summoning and the augment summoning feat, or a transmuter with focus on polymorphing my familiar. Do you guys have any suggestion for the build/feats?
dvlsadvct 11-29-06, 11:30 AM	Do Scrolls count against your magic item rule? If they do a Wizard will be fairly hampered.
ShubNiggurath 11-29-06, 11:39 AM	They do. Do you suggest a sorcerer then? Or a warlock? I am not very familiar about non core caster classes...
hogarth 11-29-06, 11:46 AM	An invisible flying summoner should do O.K., but it really depends on what the encounters are. Maybe Conjurer 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 2 so that you can get some added flexibility out of the Spell Pool. Don't forget your Evard's Black Tentacles.
Tyco3110 11-29-06, 11:48 AM	Shink Item + Alchemist Fire + Box + Dispel Magic = Pwnage
Green_eyes 11-29-06, 11:49 AM	How much time do u have for preparation? There is also Explosive Runes+Dispel Magic trick.
ShubNiggurath 11-29-06, 12:10 PM	No preparation time. I cannot buff in advance, but I have always the initiative on every encounter, so I can get a spell of before being attacked... well, one encounter will involve surprise though... it would be nice to have high listen/spot, I guess. I would like to avoid blatant cheese, since the result of the encounter will be "voted" by the group. I will not get much if they think I "cheesed" my way through. It is not even necessary that I survive all the encounters. I need just to outdamage/outlast (possibly both) the sorcerer. So a solution could be a conjurer with evocation and enchantment as barred schools that casts always (greater) invisibility (or flying) as first spell? And then summons?
dvlsadvct 11-29-06, 12:18 PM	No, I would still suggest Wizard, as they would have access to 4th level spells. (A big gain over a sorc7) I would just be sure to make him a Specialized Wizard. Most likely a conjurer. Obviously eliminate evocation and probably enchantment. As stated above, greater invisibility will most likely win you this bet all in itself. Oh, and dont forget about the Orb Spells in CA, the conjurer's evocation.
ShubNiggurath 11-29-06, 12:22 PM	If I know my DM at least 2 encounters will have means to overcome invisibility and/or flight....
Tyco3110 11-29-06, 12:24 PM	well if 7th level Wizard POLYMORPH - if you can't blast him Whack him instead
hogarth 11-29-06, 12:34 PM	Like I said, I'd try a Conjurer 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 2. Feats: Scribe Scroll(b), Sudden Widen, Cooperative Spell, Sudden Maximize. Maybe SF (conj.)+Augment Summoning. Maybe Improved Familiar + something else. Important Spells: Invisibility Fly/Levitate Evard's Black Tentacles (use Widen here) Glitterdust (or here) Orb of Force + True Strike (use Maximize here) Summon Monster III (bison) Keep some slots free for the Spell Pool (e.g. to access situational things like Command Undead or whatever).
Balthanon 11-29-06, 12:47 PM	Substituting direct damage conjuration spells isn't going to prove much in this bet and without direct damage in a solo encounter you're likely to have more trouble finishing off the enemies faster than the sorcerer. I would actually make sure you keep the enchantment spells as that is one method of ending an encounter that could go very rapidly. Phantasmal Killer would be another option that would take out a single enemy rapidly. Summoned monsters frankly just don't do the same amount of damage that spells or other party members generally do. Most of the "battlefield control" builds are dependent on enhancing the damage that others do-- without the "others" you're already down a step from the sorcerer. Of course, if you don't care about using direct damage then this isn't likely to cause any problems. You'll have as much damage as you need through conjuration spells.
bomaz 11-29-06, 01:17 PM	divine metamagic cleric? You buff up for the day beat the crap out of everything and you can still cast whatever
graymocker 11-29-06, 01:32 PM	Evocation is for scrubs. Why deal damage when you can cast save-or-die instead? =P Pity the challenge isn't 9th level. Then you could just Magic Jar and Hold Monster everything to prove the supremacy of battle control. Anything that renders someone helpless so you can coup de grace them is good. Deep slumber is good, because it will probably work on anything that's CR 5. Hold Person also situationally works. Lesser Geas (commanding to "sleep for an hour") is another possibility for HD 7 and lowers. Carry a Scythe or some other weapon with a high crit multiplier and CdG slumbering enemies for very stylish kills (Thus demonstrating that proper lower level enchants spells are essentially save-or-die). The non-proficiency doesn't matter, as you will autohit. Depending on your DM, Suggestion or Charm Monster could be very powerful. Blindness or Web + a ranged weapon also pretty much amounts to save or die. Hideous Laughter + melee weapon is another possibility. I don't like PK unless their saves are softened up with bestow curse or something first. Black Tentacles are solid too, especially if your DM throws some SR creatures in there. You'll note the high number of enchantments here. I actually sort of like enchantment battlefield control builds, they can be surprisingly powerful. Other nasty tricks: Rope Trick to get all the time in the world to buff. Alter Self with a Tiefling wizard to change to a mephit, getting Natural Armor and Size bonuses to AC and flight.
EldonG 11-29-06, 02:19 PM	Warmage, Arcane Thesis: lesser sonic orb, Elven Spell Lore, Maximize Spell...and 18 Int That is...assuming the PH II qualifies as core... 44 points of damage per shot, choose your energy type...can critical.
Wayfarer 11-29-06, 03:05 PM	Are you doing all 3 encounters at once, with only one day's worth of spells between them? Or do you get a days rest between fights and have the opportunity to nova? Enervation might be helpful depending on the number of hit dice you're dealing with. Same thing with Sleep, or the Greater version if that's available to you. Knock them out, then coup de grace. Color spray is another low-level spell you can use against weak creatures. Color Spray. Ghoul Touch. Anything that can take them out quickly without having to eat through their hit points.
Michigan 11-29-06, 03:26 PM	Phantasmal Killer (4th); Suggestion, Explosive Runes, Deep Slumber (3rd); Blindness/Deafness, Daze Monster, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy (2nd); Sleep, Charm Person, and Ray of Enfeeblement (1st) As a 7th level specialist, you can knock out two Phantasmal Killers. That should handle any Big Single Monster challenges. A first round Deep Slumber or Sleep will handle any group encounters, followed by a Suggestion on any survivors. Touch of Idiocy can be plain mean on low Int monsters, but is risky. Blindness/Deafness and/or Daze Monster can let you take out a single monster without killing it.
Riodrian 11-30-06, 10:44 AM	The BET: I just got into a bet with the party sorcerer. He plays a human sorcerer 7th specialized on casting direct damage spells (evocation). I bet with him that I can build a 7th level arcane caster with ZERO evocation spells that can defeat encounters better/faster than him. Haven't you technically already lost the bet since it specified that *you* could build the character to best him?
Prominence 11-30-06, 01:22 PM	Just fight anything with evasion and it should be readily seen.
Endarire 12-01-06, 01:12 AM	If possible, be a middle-aged human and place your stat bump into INT, making it 20. Evard's black tentacles works wonders at disabling any foe it can grab. If you think it will be worthwhile, use charm monster to make someone your ally. Max your creature-related Knowledge skills- Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes, and Religion- so you have the in character advantage of being able to roll for information. Have a celerity ready should you need that extra oomf. Sure you're dazed the next round, but you get an extra standard action as an immediate action. If you specialize, dump abjuration and evocation, specializing in conjuration. Abjuration is handy in the long-term, but for three battles, don't expect much. Use your buff round to cast fly or mirror image. -EE
Jaisin 12-01-06, 01:32 AM	Human Conjurer 5/Divine Oracle 2 18 Int Key: take many swift and immediate action spells from PHB II - there are about a dozen of them of 4th level or less. Stand (lvl 1)will give you an immediate 'stand from prone' without causing AoO's to prevent tripping builds/challenges. Lesser Deflect gives a last second AC bonus (lvl 1), Lesser Celerity and Celerity (already mentioned, Lvls 2 & 4 respectively) grant extra move/standard actions as immediate actions. Halt and Hesitate (lvl 3 are immediate actions) that I believe the opponent must save against every round or take a move-only action. So, since Swift Actions are less than MEA's, Lesser Celerity will grant you multiple spell castings in a single round. I'm unsure Divine Oracle will give you an Evasion-like ability for the cost of "Skill Focus: KS- Religion", not a bad trade.
neceros 12-01-06, 04:12 AM	Uhm... Psion? I would try for Warmage with those fantastic orbs.
PhoenixInferno 12-01-06, 04:16 AM	Haven't you technically already lost the bet since it specified that *you* could build the character to best him?Heh.
BreakfastNinja 12-01-06, 07:41 AM	Hey! Try Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine). Get the Healing domain. For great justice... or at least, some cures : ) (they're conjuration, too) good gaming, --BreakfastNinja
ravenkith 12-01-06, 02:45 PM	7 Levels? Topped off spells and everything each time? Are you getting graded on efficiency or rapidity? Efficiency: Invisibility (Extended, if necessary) + Summon Swarm. Take Spiders. Summon Swarm is duration concentration+3, and your spiders will chase down anyone they come across...but not you because you are invisible and very still, thus making it nigh impossible to spot you. Unless your opponants have splash weapons, and/or magic spells, the swarm is unstoppable, and it's just a matter of time before they deal with your enemies, while you sit back and sip on a margarita. Most of the time, this simple tactic is sufficient to handle CR5 or lower encounter. Last night it helped get my group through a cr 8 encounter we would have otherwise lost. (We are currently 4 level 6's in Ravenloft). Given that you know the cr (5), Sleep and Deep slumber might help. Glitterdust is invaluable for blinding opponants. Take something to incapacitate multiple opponants, basically. So: Rapidity: Glitterdust. After that, nothing says loving quite like black tentacles. "Ah, Jim, he cast something glittery, and now I can't see! Jim!, is that you?"...huh...rubbery...it's squeezing...."noooooooooooo!"