Post/Author/DateTime	Post
e-z0r 11-06-05, 03:13 PM	Hello! Reading up on arcane PrCs for a character I'm creating for our game, the Effigy master caught my eye. The things he can build seem cool, as does the concept. What comes in to mind naturally is how to make it better. Effigies seem rather easy to make according to the info in Complete Arcane, they don't even cost that much. And the only limit to what you can create seems to be your own limits, i.e Effigy master lets you make an effigy with HD equal to your Effigy master level + your caster level. Now, without any skill focus feats at all, one could take his first level of effigy master at character level 8. You lose a caster level at Effigy master 1, but caster progression continues for the last four levels. So.. A Wizard 7/Effigy Master 5 would have a caster level of 11, and five levels of Effigy master, allowing the creation of a 16HD effigy. With Skill Focus (Craft(Metalworking, or leatherworking, or woodworking)) the wizard could take his first level of effigy master at level 5, for a Wiz 4/Effigy Master 5, so at level 9 he could have a 13HD effigy. If the DM allows for an extended effigy master class, like is suggested under "Adaptation" in the effigy master's description, you could go for something like Wizard 7/Effigy Master 10, where at 10th level you would again forefeit a caster level but you would gain the ability to possess your effigy. Wiz7/Em9 would give you CL 15 Arcane, and so you could make a 25HD effigy at level 16. So these things are powerful to begin with. A 13HD construct at your side at level 9 isn't bad, since you're still a level 8 caster, too, and can back him up with your own spells. My question, though, is how to make the constructs even better? Feats? Other prestige classes? Spells, items, what? There is also the question of what creatures are best to make effigies of. Rules for making an effigy can be read from Complete Arcane page 155. EDIT: Well, Complete Arcane has the Practiced Spellcaster feat that gives +4 to your caster level. Unfortunately it won't let you have a caster level of more than your HD. Regardless, it could come in handy if you wanted to multiclass to a non-caster class, or if you had monster HD for some reason.
Caelic 11-06-05, 03:44 PM	It really all depends on how abusive you want to get. The main potential for abuse with effigies lies in the fact that their cost is based entirely on hit dice--an 8-HD critter with loads and loads of funky abilities costs just as much to build as an 8-HD critter with no abilities whatsoever. In short: the Effigy Master can build an effigy of a hugely-templated critter, and as long as the templates don't actually add hit dice, there's no additional cost.
e-z0r 11-06-05, 03:49 PM	Yep, that's one of the things I thought about. However, templates seem awfully cheesy, just on a personal "how much cheese are you comfortable with" kind of way. Using any sort of base creature should be fine though. And that's what's fun, too, as the effigy gains all the natural attacks and traits of the original creature, except special qualities and such. Of course, with it's --- int, it also loses skill points and feats. How about some way to circumvent that?
Pinky's brain 11-06-05, 04:05 PM	It retains feats which improve it's attacks though, so it keeps weapon focus, improved natural weapon, power attack, multiattack, improved multiattack etc. If you are limited to just the extra feats you can get from advancing a creature you usually won't have much room to add feats though. With a bit of imagination you could say that the feat entry on MM page 7 suggests that all the non racial feats for creatures can be changed. As for the best critter, for a large humanoid shaped critter I think the cave troll is the best ... the ability scores and NA are worse than the war trolls, but it's ex attacks more than make up for it IMO (pounce + rake + rend = $$).
Lorimo the Disbeliever 11-06-05, 04:42 PM	With Skill Focus (Craft(Metalworking, or leatherworking, or woodworking)) the wizard could take his first level of effigy master at level 5 *yawn* Skill Focus doesn't grant skill ranks.
pyro_cat 11-06-05, 05:29 PM	*yawn* Skill Focus doesn't grant skill ranks. My choice of entry would probably involve a human Wiz 5/(Adapted) Maester 1/Incantrix 1. Takes care of skill ranks, and cuts crafting time in half.
primetimekiller 11-06-05, 05:57 PM	well i play one of those bastards too and i know how good it sounds to stack all the templates on an effigy but well there is no proof that it is allowed nowhere exists an example of an effigy with templates i know now there will be some arguments like "nowhere it says that you cant" and i might argue like and nowhere its says that "you cant kill a god by spelling his name backwords" and then you might come up with "nowhere it is said that you can breath so everybody suffocates roll up another charakter oh... dead again" well so a good form for 13HD is the filborg(mm2) and the urophion(lords of madness) have in mind that an effgiy keeps its ex ablites which save is not based on con or has no save what has no save and is a nasty one-hit killer ex you might ask? i tell you the mindflayers extract(ex) yes make your effigy a brain extractor and sell the spare brains to mind flayers... consider the uroophion hat the extract ability too and it makes ranged touch attacks at 50' 6 per round quite nasty... if you dm is really that stupid to allow you to make effigies of templates and as many as you want try: Giant Squid (Animal) 26 Str, 17 Dex, +6 NA, 10 tenticle attacks, 1 bite attack, swim 80', constrict, improved grab, +8 swim Warbeast (Animal) +3 Str, +10' move Woodling (Animal) +7 Natural Armour, 1 Slam attack Magebred (Animal) +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 NA, +10' move, Improved Natural Attacks Voidmind (Animal) +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 NA, +4 Bluff, Escape Artist and Intimidate, Improved Grab, One Tenticle attack, +4 to grapple Half Golem [Brass, Clay, Dragonflesh, Flesh, Iron, Stained Glass, Stone] (Animal) +56 Str, -14 Dex, +52 NA, +2 Fortitude saves, Rage when damaged, 2 keen claw attacks Anthropamorphic (Humanoid) Katane (Humanoid) +2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Listen, Hide, Move Silently and Spot Ghul (Humanoid) +2 str, +4 Dex, +2 Climb and Jump, Bite Attack Half-Satyr (Humanoid) +2 NA, +2 Perform Half-Nymph (Humanoid) +2 Dex Half-Rakshasa (Humanoid) +2 Dex, +4 NA, +10' movement Half-Janni (Humanoid) +2 Str, +2 Dex, +1 NA Draconic (Humanoid) +2 Str, +1 NA Feral (Monsterous Humanoid) Half-Troll (Giant) +6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 NA, Rend Half-Ogre (Giant) +4 Str, +2 NA Half-Scrag (Giant) +6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 NA Half-Minotaur (Giant) +4 Str, +2 NA, Gore attack, +2 search Half-Fey (Fey) +2 Dex, Fly speed (x2 land, good) Spell-warped (Aberration) +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 NA Half-Dragon [x30, see MM and Draconomicon] (Dragon) +240 Str, +120 NA Winged (Dragon) Multiheaded (+2 heads, learnean) (Dragon) Paragon (Dragon) +15 Str, +15 Dex, max Hp +12/HD, x3 speed, +24 AC, +25 hit, +20 damage, +13 special attack DCs, +10 saves, +10 skills, +2 feats (take as weapon focus (tenticle) and multiattack) Effigy (Construct) +4 Str, -2 Dex, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1, +2 NA, DR 3/Adamantine this will get an ass of str and natural armor and dozens of attacks quite unbeatable but again common sense makes it impossible to have a lifeform that consists of 9 halfes... well whatever...have fun but to be honest the base form of the creature is not important anymore even a stupid chicken would rock with all those templates http://www.sloganizer.net/en/style8,stacking-spc-templates.png (http://www.sloganizer.net/en/)
Pinky's brain 11-06-05, 06:06 PM	and i know how good it sounds to stack all the templates on an effigy but well there is no proof that it is allowed nowhere exists an example of an effigy with templatesThe rules are the rules, example or not. "In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add." Templates can be applied to anything which is a valid target, which usually solely depends on type. I think the firbolg is a bit meh compared to the MM3 trolls.
20goingon1232 11-06-05, 06:12 PM	Gods...! I read that as "Battering the Effigy master"... :D That was surreal...
primetimekiller 11-06-05, 06:14 PM	i completly agree to what you just said because you started the sentence with "in theory" yes in theory you can stack 9 half-xy templates to a chicken but this is theory pun pun is theory too so is the hivemind or the wish and the word but theory doesnt belong into a real game sure its fun to read those wicked ideas and see what is possible (i enjoy it too and sometimes i made my own concepts that w are pretty wicked too but most are just completly unplayable)
Caelic 11-06-05, 06:20 PM	Prime, I'm one of the first on the boards to argue against builds based on questionable rules-lawyering, but in this case, the rules seem pretty solid. You can add multiple templates to a monster; that is not subject to debate. The Monster Manual explicitly says that it can be done. As for whether you can build an Effigy of a templated creature...can you offer a logical reason why you could build an Effigy of a dragon, but not of a half-dragon? An ettin, but not a Two-Headed Ogre? Whether you SHOULD do this or not is another issue, and each DM needs to adjudicate that one for himself; whether you can do it, by the rules, really seems to be an open-and-shut case.
pyro_cat 11-06-05, 06:40 PM	Does anyone know of a feat that would increase caster level by TWO, like Practiced Spellcaster, but offer another benefit instead of an increase of four? I'm trying to put together a Effigy Master build, and I have two levels that don't progress spellcasting. Since effigies are built off of casting levels, I would like this to be as high as possible, but it's somewhat of a waste to take Practiced Spellcaster and only recieve half the benefit.
e-z0r 11-07-05, 12:46 AM	Does anyone know of a feat that would increase caster level by TWO, like Practiced Spellcaster, but offer another benefit instead of an increase of four? I'm trying to put together a Effigy Master build, and I have two levels that don't progress spellcasting. Since effigies are built off of casting levels, I would like this to be as high as possible, but it's somewhat of a waste to take Practiced Spellcaster and only recieve half the benefit. Yep, does seem that way. Unless you can find such a feat, you could look for three more non-caster levels at some point. It might pay off. (might).
Blade2718 11-07-05, 01:17 AM	Does anyone know of a feat that would increase caster level by TWO, like Practiced Spellcaster, but offer another benefit instead of an increase of four? I'm trying to put together a Effigy Master build, and I have two levels that don't progress spellcasting. Since effigies are built off of casting levels, I would like this to be as high as possible, but it's somewhat of a waste to take Practiced Spellcaster and only recieve half the benefit.Wild Mage lets you potentially gain another +3 to your caster level. Other items that boost caster level might be helpful (ankh of ascension, prayer beads of karma, candle of invocation, ioun stone, etc.)
Taliesin52 11-07-05, 12:00 PM	It retains feats which improve it's attacks though, so it keeps weapon focus, improved natural weapon, power attack, multiattack, improved multiattack etc. If you are limited to just the extra feats you can get from advancing a creature you usually won't have much room to add feats though. With a bit of imagination you could say that the feat entry on MM page 7 suggests that all the non racial feats for creatures can be changed. As for the best critter, for a large humanoid shaped critter I think the cave troll is the best ... the ability scores and NA are worse than the war trolls, but it's ex attacks more than make up for it IMO (pounce + rake + rend = $$). I agree on the cave troll. The nice thing about war troll is it's DR, regen, and immunities. You don't get those with an effigy, so it's a waste. Meanwhile, pounce and 5 natural attacks is killer for a construct. Unfortunately, like in all things in magic item construction, the artificer class outweighs thiis prc. With it's infusion spells alone it rocks. That said, since an effigy is a magic item, I'd consider upgrading it's weapons. I don't see any reason you can't enchant claws as if they were magic weapons.
e-z0r 11-07-05, 12:25 PM	My choice of entry would probably involve a human Wiz 5/(Adapted) Maester 1/Incantrix 1. Takes care of skill ranks, and cuts crafting time in half. Hmm.. What are these (Adapted) Maester and Incantrix? I know of Incantatrix from PGtF, but for some reason Incantrix also seems a common name. If it's just a typo and we are speaking of the same incantatrix after all, how does it cut crafting time in half? Crafting time in general seems a bit vague in the effigy master's entry and the effigy entry as well, in complete arcane.
deathwishjoe 11-07-05, 12:42 PM	I'm sure incantrix is just the same thing as incantatrix. most people dont really pay that much attention to its spelling and probably call it incantrix in there minds as the read it quickly. incantatrix doesn't speed up crafting time maester does. forgot what benifits you get with only one level of incantatrix but tis a sweet PrC for any caster.
SoulGamit 11-07-05, 01:20 PM	BTW, Templates can be added to effigies, no theory about it. The effigy template can be added to ANY creature (of certain types). It does not say any base creature, any creature that is the average of its kind (like polymorph), or any creature without templates. The word any is inclusive of templated creatures. That said, templates are still very cheesy. However, perhaps you and you DM can come to an agreement. Perhaps only certain templates can be added. Perhaps the templates can only add as much LA as you can HD, or perhaps you add the CR of the templates that don't add HD to the effective HD of the monster. The gibbering mouther is a nice choice for effigies, as is that large version of illithids (who's name escapes me). Dusk Giants are also major cheese, almost as bad as templates. Also, Artifacer is better at making effigies then the effigy master. First, the craft construct will allow you to make more then just effigies. Second, the warforged sub level (if you can get it) basically doubles your craft pool. Don't forget to be evil and use sacrifices for free cash and exp.
e-z0r 11-07-05, 01:21 PM	I'm sure incantrix is just the same thing as incantatrix. most people dont really pay that much attention to its spelling and probably call it incantrix in there minds as the read it quickly. incantatrix doesn't speed up crafting time maester does. forgot what benifits you get with only one level of incantatrix but tis a sweet PrC for any caster. Incantatrix 1 gives you a free metamagic feat and a caster level. Also, you must forefeit one spellcasting school, in addition to any prohibited schools due to specialization. And the new prohibited school can't be abjuration or divination. All in all seems like a rather crappy first level. You get a caster level and a metamagic feat, but you have to give up a spell school. Not really stellar there. The other levels are better though. EDIT: Well, Magic of Faerûn has a different version of the Incantatrix, where Incantatrix 1 gives you specialization in Abjuration, and makes you lose a spell school. You recieve all the normal benefits of specialization. EDIT2: I found Maester :) Complete Adventurer, pg 56. This is the one that halves the crafting time. Adapted comes from the requirement of the unadapted Maester class that the character is a gnome. The "Adaptation" chapter says that you can screw that requirement if you negotiate it with the DM.
lostone 11-07-05, 01:47 PM	Giant Squid (Animal) 26 Str, 17 Dex, +6 NA, 10 tenticle attacks, 1 bite attack, swim 80', constrict, improved grab, +8 swim Warbeast (Animal) +3 Str, +10' move Woodling (Animal) +7 Natural Armour, 1 Slam attack Magebred (Animal) +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 NA, +10' move, Improved Natural Attacks Voidmind (Animal) +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 NA, +4 Bluff, Escape Artist and Intimidate, Improved Grab, One Tenticle attack, +4 to grapple Half Golem [Brass, Clay, Dragonflesh, Flesh, Iron, Stained Glass, Stone] (Animal) +56 Str, -14 Dex, +52 NA, +2 Fortitude saves, Rage when damaged, 2 keen claw attacks Anthropamorphic (Humanoid) Katane (Humanoid) +2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Listen, Hide, Move Silently and Spot Ghul (Humanoid) +2 str, +4 Dex, +2 Climb and Jump, Bite Attack Half-Satyr (Humanoid) +2 NA, +2 Perform Half-Nymph (Humanoid) +2 Dex Half-Rakshasa (Humanoid) +2 Dex, +4 NA, +10' movement Half-Janni (Humanoid) +2 Str, +2 Dex, +1 NA Draconic (Humanoid) +2 Str, +1 NA Feral (Monsterous Humanoid) Half-Troll (Giant) +6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 NA, Rend Half-Ogre (Giant) +4 Str, +2 NA Half-Scrag (Giant) +6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 NA Half-Minotaur (Giant) +4 Str, +2 NA, Gore attack, +2 search Half-Fey (Fey) +2 Dex, Fly speed (x2 land, good) Spell-warped (Aberration) +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 NA Half-Dragon [x30, see MM and Draconomicon] (Dragon) +240 Str, +120 NA Winged (Dragon) Multiheaded (+2 heads, learnean) (Dragon) Paragon (Dragon) +15 Str, +15 Dex, max Hp +12/HD, x3 speed, +24 AC, +25 hit, +20 damage, +13 special attack DCs, +10 saves, +10 skills, +2 feats (take as weapon focus (tenticle) and multiattack) Effigy (Construct) +4 Str, -2 Dex, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1, +2 NA, DR 3/AdamantineAs copied from here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6804233). Kudos to LordKiwi for figuring out the order to apply them all so that they progress from the animal type through construct while remaining legal (I believe, never checked myself, but that was his intent). but again common sense makes it impossible to have a lifeform that consists of 9 halfes...Take a look at that again, it is applying 30 half-dragon templates, which means it is a lot more than 9 halves. :eek: End results will be something close to +380 str, +40 dex, +120 natural armor, and 17 attacks (8 just from the giant squid after the anthropomorphic template is applied, which is why he chose that as the base creature).
SoulGamit 11-07-05, 01:56 PM	Technically, since it's an effigy, it doesn't really have ANY parents, it's just made to look like it does. In the case of multible half-dragon templates, that'd just be a color change.
lostone 11-07-05, 02:09 PM	No, it's more than that. Each half-dragon template would add the +8 strength and natural armor, etc.
primetimekiller 11-07-05, 02:31 PM	oh just please stop arguing on that because no dm will allow it!!! we should think of even more evil thinks or creatures... i was wondering if you can make effgies of swarm creatures... what do you thing about that?
lostone 11-07-05, 02:57 PM	You never know. I have heard of DMs allowing things like the Hulking Hurler and UberERcharger builds. This is far less crazy than that.
Aufenshauft 11-07-05, 03:49 PM	I think the idea of swarm effegies is an awesome one, myself. A DM might make it a logistical nightmare with having to repair individual constructs in the swarm (you have to heal them each 1 point, so no big repair spells, just lots of small ones), not to mention what to do about ones that get destroyed. Are there any creatures out there that have a shape-changing ex related to combat? That might be a great one to make. I don't have the MM2 or FF, though. Another one to look out for would be evasion, for reasons below. The big danger you have with effegies (especially swarms) is that they are very susceptible to sheer damage. Sure, they have some DR, but Effegies are not immune to magic, so unless you find some ways to protect them from actual spells, you might be sunk. Fireballs come to mind, and they are really common. You could use that to your advantage. Lots of buffing spells, craft some magical armor (who needs proficiency when you got a staple gun?), and slap on all the resists you can onto it. You should already have the feat to make the stuff. Get cat's grace for that evasion. If you can talk your DM into it, get that MAsochist's armor from Dragon 302 or so, modified to repair light damage instead of cure. That would be required, IMO
Santherus 11-07-05, 04:40 PM	Minor tangent involving the templates listed in this thread - If you find a decent 2HD creature, create the effigy then apply Incarnate constuct, you now have a LA+0 creature that is PC ready to adventure at level 1 (in an insane campaign, admittedly) - perhaps use this for an interesting cohort?
deathwishjoe 11-07-05, 05:04 PM	making an effigy of a swarm is possible but it sucks to do so. let me explain. not only are the swarm traits listed as special qualities but an effigy causes it to loose all types and subtypes. so everything that made a swarm good is now gone. the exception to this rule is hell wasp swarm. they can dominate other creatures and raise dead things.