Big AC without any Armor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Big AC without any Armor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Danmation
08-28-06, 12:14 AM What's the best way to get the higest AC without using any armor?
Surreal
08-28-06, 12:31 AM Dwarf monk/druid/MoMF/Deepwarden with Vow of Poverty and Improved Combat Expertise does pretty well. Maybe fewer levels of MoMF and have ninja/Daggerspell Shaper 8 to keep your stat items to Con and Dex.
gootentag
08-28-06, 12:34 AM The first and probably biggest step is being an exalted monk or ninja (WIS insight bonus to AC) with Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds. This gives you a variety of bonuses to your AC as you level up as well as Ability score boosts you can put in either DEX or WIS applying them to your AC.
Danmation
08-28-06, 12:41 AM Ok, thanks. I was wondering instead what build you've ever used to make the highest AC you could-- without armor (including magic items too!).
Slyver
08-28-06, 01:45 AM What's the best way to get the higest AC without using any armor?
This is terribly subjective. How high do you want? It is a very relative thing. Over 50? Over 70? Over 100? They can all be done relatively easy in many different ways. In fact, I would say you can probably do it with just about any archetype; good, bad, sword fighter, swashbuckler, shapechanger, spellcaster arcane or divine, skill monkey, you name it and you dictate what high AC means to you and I can probably dig up a build.

Just remember, you don't want to break your game, and that means a different thing for each DM/gaming group. Also, be aware, a lot of what you can do is based on what books are available.

Slyver
PhoenixInferno
08-28-06, 03:34 AM It can get infinitely high.
stmunks
08-28-06, 04:51 AM A psychic warrior or ardent with a level or two of monk or ninja can get quite a few 1st level AC buffing powers that can really add up at high levels. Even at low levels, you can grab +8 AC for only 2 pp with Inertial Armor and Force Shield.
tsuyoshikentsu
08-28-06, 05:26 AM I can think of three infinite loops off the top of my head, two of which are doable at level five.
Random Hero
08-28-06, 07:50 AM 2 levels of Swordsage gives you Wis to AC too.
X-Codes
08-28-06, 08:49 AM I can think of three infinite loops off the top of my head, two of which are doable at level five.
Pun-Pun is obvious, whats the other?

Also, don't ask for a build that gets high AC without magic items. Magic items are an important part of D&D. Removing them completely from the game just brings up balance issues and takes a lot of the luster from the game (wheras tactful restriction makes them impressive and even more highly desirable than they are already).
Danmation
08-28-06, 11:30 AM I was too vague. I want to build a character who has unadorned, unbuffed, just plain high AC. You capture him and strip him-- his AC is still high. You surprise his campsite and (after the surprise round) his AC is still high. I haven't used the Book of Nine Swords, but I have a build in mind:

Human
Vow of Poverty/Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Monk5/Invisible Blade5/Duelist5 in that order.

The feats would be as follows:
sacred vow & vow of poverty
weapon focus: dagger
point blank shot
far shot
dodge
mobility
(3 more feats at levels 12,15,18)
(10 more exalted feats)
I haven't picked them yet.

The additions to ability scores over the 20 levels are +8/+6/+4/+2 and 5 more points as usual standard.

If my reading of the rules is right (is it?), this nimble little guy will be able to add his intelligence bonus (+5) to his AC TWICE, once for the 'Unfettered Defense' from the Invisible Blade PrC and once for the 'Canny Defense' from the Duelist PrC. So that's +10AC.

Also, he'd add his Wisdom bonus (let's say, +6) and his Dex bonus (let's say +6). And then there's the VoP AC bonus, which is +10, +3 deflection. +2 natural. If he's dodging, that's an extra +1, and the Monk's bonus is +1 at lvl5.

So the grand total at level 20 is AC 49.

The big questions I have are: is there a better way? Do the bonuses from all those places stack? Particularly I have in mind stacking Invisible Blade bonuses with Dueslist bonuses. Also stacking IB bonuses with VoP bonuses.
Surreal
08-28-06, 11:52 AM Or just go incorporeal/ethereal. Who needs AC?
PhaedrusXY
08-28-06, 12:27 PM Take Carmendine monk to use your Int instead of Wisdom for monk abilities. It is in some Forgotten Realms book... (or use Kung Fu Genius in Dragon 318 or 319).
FriendlyFrog
08-28-06, 12:34 PM Take Carmendine monk to use your Int instead of Wisdom for monk abilities. It is in some Forgotten Realms book... (or use Kung Fu Genius in Dragon 318 or 319).
Champions of Valor to be specific.
Slyver
08-28-06, 12:38 PM First, you have VoP, which while very strong at low levels, becomes about average around level 10ish and is downright abysmal at 20.

Second, you have VoP and a ton of feats that are made for ranged attack. As a VoP you can't own anything to throw. "I Fart in your general direction!"

Third, the feats prerequisites for invisible blade are very likely an editing error. You can find the actual prereqs here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139190).

Edit: There is something wrong with the link. If I copy and paste it, it works. I am wondering if it is a bug in the new boards. Anyone else having this problem? The link is here:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139190 You must copy and paste.

Fourth, the build has nothing else. It has relatively weak AC, very little synergy and almost no capacity for damage or the ability to handle itself in difficult situations.

To answer your question, yes, you can add a stat mod to AC (or anything else for that matter) more than once as long as those mods are of certain types, unnamed or specifically say that they stack.

Again, you did not state what books you have available, but to give you a taste of something a little better along the same lines as yours:

1 Feat Rogue Improved Initiative, Quickdraw, Able Learner
2 Human Paragon
3 Cobra Strike Monk Carmandine Monk, Dodge
4 Cobra Strike Monk Mobility
5 Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse
6 Swashbuckler Expertise
7 Swashbuckler Insightful Strike
8 Human Paragon Improved Expertise
9 Human Paragon Weapon Focus Katana, (+2 int)
10 Iajistu master
11 Duelist
12 Duelist Elusive Target
13 Duelist
14 Duelist
15 Duelist Combat Focus
16 Duelist
17 Duelist
18 Duelist Combat Defense
19 Duelist
20 Duelist

I just threw this together, I am sure it can be improved upon. For AC we have, assuming a starting int of 18:

Int mod at 20:

Start 18
HP 2
Item 6
Book 5
Levels 5
Total 36
Mod 13

AC:

Monk 13
IM 13
Duelist 10
Base 10
Bracers 8
NA 5
Deflection 5
Dodge 1
subtotal 65

(This is when not trying)

Expertise 17
Defensive 13

Total 95

I could probably get this higher with a few tweaks to the build, but as it is, it is already potentially game breaking and should therefore probably not be used.

The build also has full rogue capabilities (trapfinding, full compliment of rogue skills for 20 levels, 4+ int skill points/level (8+ at 1st) which in this build is probably more than a 20 rogue.)

It gets int to damage with a katana and full ranks in iajistu strike with a very decent initiative mod.

Anytime you have more than one opponent around you, you have elusive target and combat defense which makes your AC meaningless, as they will just beat on each other. Power attack, due to elusive target, is also useless against you.

If this is the type of character you want, let me know what books you have available and I can probably make something up. You can also pick any of the following stats to focus on for a high AC build (depending on the books available): Con, Int, Wis, Cha (You may notice interestingly enough that Dex is not in there).

The one thing you do not want to do for an high AC build is pick VoP, unless what you really mean is high AC for a level 4.

Slyver
Danmation
08-28-06, 01:41 PM Dang!

I'm using PHB, PHBII, DMG, Comp Adv, Comp Warrior, Book of exalted deeds and Heroes of Battle. I could maybe convince my DM to use some other ones too, but those are the ones I own, so I'm building from there.
Xaktsaroth
08-28-06, 02:06 PM Actually, my friend and I used to be in a group that had a very high fatality rate, and my friend was frustrated by the fact that none of his characters could survive(hell, I was optimizing the hell out of my characters and I was still dying).

So we sat down and made a character that, with no magic items, no buffs/spells, avoiding the Combat Expertise line(DM liked to jump us), and eventually, no armour.

I think his AC was 53 by level 10, 70 at level 12, or something like that.

I'll flip through a few books and see if I can't rebuild him.
Xaktsaroth
08-28-06, 02:09 PM First, you have VoP, which while very strong at low levels, becomes about average around level 10ish and is downright abysmal at 20.

Second, you have VoP and a ton of feats that are made for ranged attack. As a VoP you can't own anything to throw. "I Fart in your general direction!"

Third, the feats prerequisites for invisible blade are very likely an editing error. You can find the actual prereqs here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139190).

Edit: There is something wrong with the link. If I copy and paste it, it works. I am wondering if it is a bug in the new boards. Anyone else having this problem? The link is here:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139190 You must copy and paste.

Fourth, the build has nothing else. It has relatively weak AC, very little synergy and almost no capacity for damage or the ability to handle itself in difficult situations.

To answer your question, yes, you can add a stat mod to AC (or anything else for that matter) more than once as long as those mods are of certain types, unnamed or specifically say that they stack.

Again, you did not state what books you have available, but to give you a taste of something a little better along the same lines as yours:

1 Feat Rogue Improved Initiative, Quickdraw, Able Learner
2 Human Paragon
3 Cobra Strike Monk Carmandine Monk, Dodge
4 Cobra Strike Monk Mobility
5 Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse
6 Swashbuckler Expertise
7 Swashbuckler Insightful Strike
8 Human Paragon Improved Expertise
9 Human Paragon Weapon Focus Katana, (+2 int)
10 Iajistu master
11 Duelist
12 Duelist Elusive Target
13 Duelist
14 Duelist
15 Duelist Combat Focus
16 Duelist
17 Duelist
18 Duelist Combat Defense
19 Duelist
20 Duelist

I just threw this together, I am sure it can be improved upon. For AC we have, assuming a starting int of 18:

Int mod at 20:

Start 18
HP 2
Item 6
Book 5
Levels 5
Total 36
Mod 13

AC:

Monk 13
IM 13
Duelist 10
Base 10
Bracers 8
NA 5
Deflection 5
Dodge 1
subtotal 65

(This is when not trying)

Expertise 17
Defensive 13

Total 95

I could probably get this higher with a few tweaks to the build, but as it is, it is already potentially game breaking and should therefore probably not be used.

The build also has full rogue capabilities (trapfinding, full compliment of rogue skills for 20 levels, 4+ int skill points/level (8+ at 1st) which in this build is probably more than a 20 rogue.)

It gets int to damage with a katana and full ranks in iajistu strike with a very decent initiative mod.

Anytime you have more than one opponent around you, you have elusive target and combat defense which makes your AC meaningless, as they will just beat on each other. Power attack, due to elusive target, is also useless against you.

If this is the type of character you want, let me know what books you have available and I can probably make something up. You can also pick any of the following stats to focus on for a high AC build (depending on the books available): Con, Int, Wis, Cha (You may notice interestingly enough that Dex is not in there).

The one thing you do not want to do for an high AC build is pick VoP, unless what you really mean is high AC for a level 4.

Slyver

Actually, your build is 13 too high, if I'm remembering correct. Duelist and IM both give Canny Defense, and thus, don't stack.
Slyver
08-28-06, 02:43 PM Actually, your build is 13 too high, if I'm remembering correct. Duelist and IM both give Canny Defense, and thus, don't stack.
IF that were the case it would be 10 too high, not 13. So, where do you get this info from? They provide un-named bonuses and there is nothing, as far as I am aware of, that states specifically that they do not stack. The name, as far as the rules of the game go, is unimportant. Generally speaking, only the modifier type matters.

Slyver
dougemes
08-28-06, 03:10 PM First, you have VoP, which while very strong at low levels, becomes about average around level 10ish and is downright abysmal at 20.

Second, you have VoP and a ton of feats that are made for ranged attack. As a VoP you can't own anything to throw. "I Fart in your general direction!"
...
Slyver

Not true, your not allowed to own anything of material value. Take some improvised weapon feats, and throw clubs / quarterstaffs / to you hearts content.

EDIT: I just looked it up again. VoP says simple weapons, not just non valued. So you can carry 20 javelins if you like.

Hrm... makes me think I will go revisit stormlord druid with VoP, might work
Surreal
08-28-06, 03:17 PM I still maintain that you go with a druid (with a dip into monk) and Master of Many Forms. Pick a form with high AC and dex, buff further with spells, apply Wis to AC, etc. and you'll still be a powerful melee threat and spellcaster.
Slyver
08-28-06, 04:50 PM EDIT: I just looked it up again. VoP says simple weapons, not just non valued. So you can carry 20 javelins if you like.
work
Interesting. I was thinking he could maybe throw rocks.

I still maintain that you go with a druid (with a dip into monk) and Master of Many Forms. Pick a form with high AC and dex, buff further with spells, apply Wis to AC, etc. and you'll still be a powerful melee threat and spellcaster.

I don't know how much of a threat you will be as a spellcaster, but yes, MoMF is definitely a possibility for a high AC no armor character. I have a dwarf MoMF build laying around that I think has AC in the 80's or 90's. If one adhere's too closely to the new errata, VoP might actually be a decent option with a variation of that build. Hmm...

I also have a bard build that has AC in the same range and ends up with 8th level sorcerer (20th caster level), and 4th level paladin spells, 16 BAB, cha to saves, to hit and damage as well.

I have a wizard gish build that I think goes well over 100 AC, and archivist build that is pretty high.

The point is, as I mentioned in my previous post, there are so many ways to do it, with every archetype, it is rediculous.

Slyver
Person_Man
08-28-06, 04:53 PM Dwarf Paragon 3/Cobra Strike Monk 3/Deepwarden 4/Duelist 10

+2 Con
Wis to AC (or Int, if you pick up Carmendine Monk feat)
Evasion
Fast Movement
Con to AC (replacing Dex)
Uncanny Dodge (screw you Suprise Round!)
Int to AC
Duelist level to AC when fighting defensively
Various other abilities

Pick up Carmendine Monk and Boost Int as much as possible, for the double bonus to AC.

With a base Con and Int of 16, with Con boosted to 18 from Paragon (which is also needed to get the skills to get into Deepwarden) and Int boosted to 20 from nothing but class levels (seriously though, there's no reason for it to be lower then 26 by 20th level), you end up with a base AC of 10+4+5+5+10+bonuses from fighting defensively. So that's at least 34, and you could easily get 40+.

All are publically available, open content:

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedParagon.html#dwarf-paragon
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#fighting-styles
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/duelist.html

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Danmation 08-28-06, 12:14 AM	What's the best way to get the higest AC without using any armor?
Surreal 08-28-06, 12:31 AM	Dwarf monk/druid/MoMF/Deepwarden with Vow of Poverty and Improved Combat Expertise does pretty well. Maybe fewer levels of MoMF and have ninja/Daggerspell Shaper 8 to keep your stat items to Con and Dex.
gootentag 08-28-06, 12:34 AM	The first and probably biggest step is being an exalted monk or ninja (WIS insight bonus to AC) with Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds. This gives you a variety of bonuses to your AC as you level up as well as Ability score boosts you can put in either DEX or WIS applying them to your AC.
Danmation 08-28-06, 12:41 AM	Ok, thanks. I was wondering instead what build you've ever used to make the highest AC you could-- without armor (including magic items too!).
Slyver 08-28-06, 01:45 AM	What's the best way to get the higest AC without using any armor? This is terribly subjective. How high do you want? It is a very relative thing. Over 50? Over 70? Over 100? They can all be done relatively easy in many different ways. In fact, I would say you can probably do it with just about any archetype; good, bad, sword fighter, swashbuckler, shapechanger, spellcaster arcane or divine, skill monkey, you name it and you dictate what high AC means to you and I can probably dig up a build. Just remember, you don't want to break your game, and that means a different thing for each DM/gaming group. Also, be aware, a lot of what you can do is based on what books are available. Slyver
PhoenixInferno 08-28-06, 03:34 AM	It can get infinitely high.
stmunks 08-28-06, 04:51 AM	A psychic warrior or ardent with a level or two of monk or ninja can get quite a few 1st level AC buffing powers that can really add up at high levels. Even at low levels, you can grab +8 AC for only 2 pp with Inertial Armor and Force Shield.
tsuyoshikentsu 08-28-06, 05:26 AM	I can think of three infinite loops off the top of my head, two of which are doable at level five.
Random Hero 08-28-06, 07:50 AM	2 levels of Swordsage gives you Wis to AC too.
X-Codes 08-28-06, 08:49 AM	I can think of three infinite loops off the top of my head, two of which are doable at level five. Pun-Pun is obvious, whats the other? Also, don't ask for a build that gets high AC without magic items. Magic items are an important part of D&D. Removing them completely from the game just brings up balance issues and takes a lot of the luster from the game (wheras tactful restriction makes them impressive and even more highly desirable than they are already).
Danmation 08-28-06, 11:30 AM	I was too vague. I want to build a character who has unadorned, unbuffed, just plain high AC. You capture him and strip him-- his AC is still high. You surprise his campsite and (after the surprise round) his AC is still high. I haven't used the Book of Nine Swords, but I have a build in mind: Human Vow of Poverty/Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Monk5/Invisible Blade5/Duelist5 in that order. The feats would be as follows: sacred vow & vow of poverty weapon focus: dagger point blank shot far shot dodge mobility (3 more feats at levels 12,15,18) (10 more exalted feats) I haven't picked them yet. The additions to ability scores over the 20 levels are +8/+6/+4/+2 and 5 more points as usual standard. If my reading of the rules is right (is it?), this nimble little guy will be able to add his intelligence bonus (+5) to his AC TWICE, once for the 'Unfettered Defense' from the Invisible Blade PrC and once for the 'Canny Defense' from the Duelist PrC. So that's +10AC. Also, he'd add his Wisdom bonus (let's say, +6) and his Dex bonus (let's say +6). And then there's the VoP AC bonus, which is +10, +3 deflection. +2 natural. If he's dodging, that's an extra +1, and the Monk's bonus is +1 at lvl5. So the grand total at level 20 is AC 49. The big questions I have are: is there a better way? Do the bonuses from all those places stack? Particularly I have in mind stacking Invisible Blade bonuses with Dueslist bonuses. Also stacking IB bonuses with VoP bonuses.
Surreal 08-28-06, 11:52 AM	Or just go incorporeal/ethereal. Who needs AC?
PhaedrusXY 08-28-06, 12:27 PM	Take Carmendine monk to use your Int instead of Wisdom for monk abilities. It is in some Forgotten Realms book... (or use Kung Fu Genius in Dragon 318 or 319).
FriendlyFrog 08-28-06, 12:34 PM	Take Carmendine monk to use your Int instead of Wisdom for monk abilities. It is in some Forgotten Realms book... (or use Kung Fu Genius in Dragon 318 or 319). Champions of Valor to be specific.
Slyver 08-28-06, 12:38 PM	First, you have VoP, which while very strong at low levels, becomes about average around level 10ish and is downright abysmal at 20. Second, you have VoP and a ton of feats that are made for ranged attack. As a VoP you can't own anything to throw. "I Fart in your general direction!" Third, the feats prerequisites for invisible blade are very likely an editing error. You can find the actual prereqs here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139190). Edit: There is something wrong with the link. If I copy and paste it, it works. I am wondering if it is a bug in the new boards. Anyone else having this problem? The link is here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139190 You must copy and paste. Fourth, the build has nothing else. It has relatively weak AC, very little synergy and almost no capacity for damage or the ability to handle itself in difficult situations. To answer your question, yes, you can add a stat mod to AC (or anything else for that matter) more than once as long as those mods are of certain types, unnamed or specifically say that they stack. Again, you did not state what books you have available, but to give you a taste of something a little better along the same lines as yours: 1 Feat Rogue Improved Initiative, Quickdraw, Able Learner 2 Human Paragon 3 Cobra Strike Monk Carmandine Monk, Dodge 4 Cobra Strike Monk Mobility 5 Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse 6 Swashbuckler Expertise 7 Swashbuckler Insightful Strike 8 Human Paragon Improved Expertise 9 Human Paragon Weapon Focus Katana, (+2 int) 10 Iajistu master 11 Duelist 12 Duelist Elusive Target 13 Duelist 14 Duelist 15 Duelist Combat Focus 16 Duelist 17 Duelist 18 Duelist Combat Defense 19 Duelist 20 Duelist I just threw this together, I am sure it can be improved upon. For AC we have, assuming a starting int of 18: Int mod at 20: Start 18 HP 2 Item 6 Book 5 Levels 5 Total 36 Mod 13 AC: Monk 13 IM 13 Duelist 10 Base 10 Bracers 8 NA 5 Deflection 5 Dodge 1 subtotal 65 (This is when not trying) Expertise 17 Defensive 13 Total 95 I could probably get this higher with a few tweaks to the build, but as it is, it is already potentially game breaking and should therefore probably not be used. The build also has full rogue capabilities (trapfinding, full compliment of rogue skills for 20 levels, 4+ int skill points/level (8+ at 1st) which in this build is probably more than a 20 rogue.) It gets int to damage with a katana and full ranks in iajistu strike with a very decent initiative mod. Anytime you have more than one opponent around you, you have elusive target and combat defense which makes your AC meaningless, as they will just beat on each other. Power attack, due to elusive target, is also useless against you. If this is the type of character you want, let me know what books you have available and I can probably make something up. You can also pick any of the following stats to focus on for a high AC build (depending on the books available): Con, Int, Wis, Cha (You may notice interestingly enough that Dex is not in there). The one thing you do not want to do for an high AC build is pick VoP, unless what you really mean is high AC for a level 4. Slyver
Danmation 08-28-06, 01:41 PM	Dang! I'm using PHB, PHBII, DMG, Comp Adv, Comp Warrior, Book of exalted deeds and Heroes of Battle. I could maybe convince my DM to use some other ones too, but those are the ones I own, so I'm building from there.
Xaktsaroth 08-28-06, 02:06 PM	Actually, my friend and I used to be in a group that had a very high fatality rate, and my friend was frustrated by the fact that none of his characters could survive(hell, I was optimizing the hell out of my characters and I was still dying). So we sat down and made a character that, with no magic items, no buffs/spells, avoiding the Combat Expertise line(DM liked to jump us), and eventually, no armour. I think his AC was 53 by level 10, 70 at level 12, or something like that. I'll flip through a few books and see if I can't rebuild him.
Xaktsaroth 08-28-06, 02:09 PM	First, you have VoP, which while very strong at low levels, becomes about average around level 10ish and is downright abysmal at 20. Second, you have VoP and a ton of feats that are made for ranged attack. As a VoP you can't own anything to throw. "I Fart in your general direction!" Third, the feats prerequisites for invisible blade are very likely an editing error. You can find the actual prereqs here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139190). Edit: There is something wrong with the link. If I copy and paste it, it works. I am wondering if it is a bug in the new boards. Anyone else having this problem? The link is here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139190 You must copy and paste. Fourth, the build has nothing else. It has relatively weak AC, very little synergy and almost no capacity for damage or the ability to handle itself in difficult situations. To answer your question, yes, you can add a stat mod to AC (or anything else for that matter) more than once as long as those mods are of certain types, unnamed or specifically say that they stack. Again, you did not state what books you have available, but to give you a taste of something a little better along the same lines as yours: 1 Feat Rogue Improved Initiative, Quickdraw, Able Learner 2 Human Paragon 3 Cobra Strike Monk Carmandine Monk, Dodge 4 Cobra Strike Monk Mobility 5 Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse 6 Swashbuckler Expertise 7 Swashbuckler Insightful Strike 8 Human Paragon Improved Expertise 9 Human Paragon Weapon Focus Katana, (+2 int) 10 Iajistu master 11 Duelist 12 Duelist Elusive Target 13 Duelist 14 Duelist 15 Duelist Combat Focus 16 Duelist 17 Duelist 18 Duelist Combat Defense 19 Duelist 20 Duelist I just threw this together, I am sure it can be improved upon. For AC we have, assuming a starting int of 18: Int mod at 20: Start 18 HP 2 Item 6 Book 5 Levels 5 Total 36 Mod 13 AC: Monk 13 IM 13 Duelist 10 Base 10 Bracers 8 NA 5 Deflection 5 Dodge 1 subtotal 65 (This is when not trying) Expertise 17 Defensive 13 Total 95 I could probably get this higher with a few tweaks to the build, but as it is, it is already potentially game breaking and should therefore probably not be used. The build also has full rogue capabilities (trapfinding, full compliment of rogue skills for 20 levels, 4+ int skill points/level (8+ at 1st) which in this build is probably more than a 20 rogue.) It gets int to damage with a katana and full ranks in iajistu strike with a very decent initiative mod. Anytime you have more than one opponent around you, you have elusive target and combat defense which makes your AC meaningless, as they will just beat on each other. Power attack, due to elusive target, is also useless against you. If this is the type of character you want, let me know what books you have available and I can probably make something up. You can also pick any of the following stats to focus on for a high AC build (depending on the books available): Con, Int, Wis, Cha (You may notice interestingly enough that Dex is not in there). The one thing you do not want to do for an high AC build is pick VoP, unless what you really mean is high AC for a level 4. Slyver Actually, your build is 13 too high, if I'm remembering correct. Duelist and IM both give Canny Defense, and thus, don't stack.
Slyver 08-28-06, 02:43 PM	Actually, your build is 13 too high, if I'm remembering correct. Duelist and IM both give Canny Defense, and thus, don't stack. IF that were the case it would be 10 too high, not 13. So, where do you get this info from? They provide un-named bonuses and there is nothing, as far as I am aware of, that states specifically that they do not stack. The name, as far as the rules of the game go, is unimportant. Generally speaking, only the modifier type matters. Slyver
dougemes 08-28-06, 03:10 PM	First, you have VoP, which while very strong at low levels, becomes about average around level 10ish and is downright abysmal at 20. Second, you have VoP and a ton of feats that are made for ranged attack. As a VoP you can't own anything to throw. "I Fart in your general direction!" ... Slyver Not true, your not allowed to own anything of material value. Take some improvised weapon feats, and throw clubs / quarterstaffs / to you hearts content. EDIT: I just looked it up again. VoP says simple weapons, not just non valued. So you can carry 20 javelins if you like. Hrm... makes me think I will go revisit stormlord druid with VoP, might work
Surreal 08-28-06, 03:17 PM	I still maintain that you go with a druid (with a dip into monk) and Master of Many Forms. Pick a form with high AC and dex, buff further with spells, apply Wis to AC, etc. and you'll still be a powerful melee threat and spellcaster.
Slyver 08-28-06, 04:50 PM	EDIT: I just looked it up again. VoP says simple weapons, not just non valued. So you can carry 20 javelins if you like. work Interesting. I was thinking he could maybe throw rocks. I still maintain that you go with a druid (with a dip into monk) and Master of Many Forms. Pick a form with high AC and dex, buff further with spells, apply Wis to AC, etc. and you'll still be a powerful melee threat and spellcaster. I don't know how much of a threat you will be as a spellcaster, but yes, MoMF is definitely a possibility for a high AC no armor character. I have a dwarf MoMF build laying around that I think has AC in the 80's or 90's. If one adhere's too closely to the new errata, VoP might actually be a decent option with a variation of that build. Hmm... I also have a bard build that has AC in the same range and ends up with 8th level sorcerer (20th caster level), and 4th level paladin spells, 16 BAB, cha to saves, to hit and damage as well. I have a wizard gish build that I think goes well over 100 AC, and archivist build that is pretty high. The point is, as I mentioned in my previous post, there are so many ways to do it, with every archetype, it is rediculous. Slyver
Person_Man 08-28-06, 04:53 PM	Dwarf Paragon 3/Cobra Strike Monk 3/Deepwarden 4/Duelist 10 +2 Con Wis to AC (or Int, if you pick up Carmendine Monk feat) Evasion Fast Movement Con to AC (replacing Dex) Uncanny Dodge (screw you Suprise Round!) Int to AC Duelist level to AC when fighting defensively Various other abilities Pick up Carmendine Monk and Boost Int as much as possible, for the double bonus to AC. With a base Con and Int of 16, with Con boosted to 18 from Paragon (which is also needed to get the skills to get into Deepwarden) and Int boosted to 20 from nothing but class levels (seriously though, there's no reason for it to be lower then 26 by 20th level), you end up with a base AC of 10+4+5+5+10+bonuses from fighting defensively. So that's at least 34, and you could easily get 40+. All are publically available, open content: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedParagon.html#dwarf-paragon http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#fighting-styles http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4 http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/duelist.html