Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pyro_cat 03-16-06, 05:44 PM	So I bought Tome of Magic (great buy, for anyone who doesn't have it). I was (like everyone else) immediately struck with the Binder class, and then right after that with the Anima Mage PrC. I thought it would be cool to make a summoning focused character, utilizing both Binding and Conjuration. To that end, I put together the rough outline of a build, and I'm looking for a PrC to finish it off and some feats to flesh it out. Human Conjurer Variant (UA) Conj 1 (Augment Summoning, Rapid Summoning, Improved Initiative, Extend Spell) Conj 2 Binder 1 (Improved Binding) Conj 3 Anima Mage 1 Anima Mage 2 (Skilled Pact Making) Anima Mage 3 Anima Mage 4 Anima Mage 5 (Persistent Spell) Anima Mage 6 Anima Mage 7 Anima Mage 8 (???) Anima Mage 9 Anima Mage 10 After that, I'm not sure where to go, or what feats to take. Metamagic feats don't seem all that useful for Summoning spells (would something else be better than Extend?), though the Vestige Metamagic ability makes Persistent Spell an amazing choice. We use fractional BAB and Saves, so I could take a full BAB casting class and conceivably make a decent Gish, or I could find some way to get into Thaumaturgist. Is there an easier way of getting into Thaumaturgist than Arcane Disciple? What are my options?
pyro_cat 03-17-06, 10:42 AM	:bump: Ways to get into Thaumaturgist or just general suggestions would be appreciated. I've been spending all my time trying to crack the Truename problem.
Jacen LeBeau 03-18-06, 02:52 PM	Ways I can think of to get you into Thaumaturgist: Conj 1: (augmented summoning, rapid summoning), spell focus (conjuration), extend spell, Arcane Disciple (either the Celestial, Dragon Below or Summoner domain)/flaw Edit: I see you've already noticed this =D I don't think their is an easier way for this character.
pyro_cat 03-18-06, 03:00 PM	Ways I can think of to get you into Thaumaturgist: Conj 1: (augmented summoning, rapid summoning), spell focus (conjuration), extend spell, Arcane Disciple (either the Celestial, Dragon Below or Summoner domain)/flaw Edit: I see you've already noticed this =D I don't think their is an easier way for this character. Darn. Oh well, thanks anyways. There's plenty of other good PrCs.
pyro_cat 03-18-06, 06:36 PM	Three new questions: Can Improved Binding apply to the Bind Vestige Feat? If not, does Bind Vestige and Improved Vestige qualify you for Anima Mage? If it does qualify you, do you just use your Anima Mage levels as your Equivalent Binder Level? It says Anima Mage stacks with Binder. Would you then gain virtual levels of binder for purposes of all the things mentioned in the Anima Mage class abilities section? It seems like one wasted feat (Bind Vestige) and one semi-useful feat (Improved Binding) would be a great way to qualify for Anima Mage at level 4.
pad300 03-18-06, 08:41 PM	Three new questions: Can Improved Binding apply to the Bind Vestige Feat? If not, does Bind Vestige and Improved Vestige qualify you for Anima Mage? If it does qualify you, do you just use your Anima Mage levels as your Equivalent Binder Level? It says Anima Mage stacks with Binder. Would you then gain virtual levels of binder for purposes of all the things mentioned in the Anima Mage class abilities section? It seems like one wasted feat (Bind Vestige) and one semi-useful feat (Improved Binding) would be a great way to qualify for Anima Mage at level 4. Yeah, the required qualifications for anima mage are wierd... Consider a Neutral 5th level human wizard or sorceror with the feats Extend Spell, Bind Vestige ("By employing a short ritual, you can contact a vestige and make a pact with it. You are treated as a 1st level binder for this purpose, regardless of your character level. Thus, only 1st level vestiges are available to you, and you can only bind one vestige at a time" )and Bind Vestige, Improved ("When you bind a vestige using the Bind Vestige feat, you do so as if you were a fifth level binder. Thus, you have access to vestiges of up to third level, though you can still only bind one at a time, and only gain one power from it"). He also has 4 ranks in Intimidate and Know(Planes). He can cast 2nd level arcane spells and can bind 2nd level vestiges - eg. Dahlver-Nahl, table 1.9, pg. 74, Bind Vestige Feat abilities. He has all the required prequisistes to become an Anima Mage... (Note that you can't do this easily at level 4, with Intimidate being cross-class, you must be level 5) So he takes a level of Anima Mage for 6th level. At which point, he has "Soul Binding +1". Which says "At each anima mage level, your sould binding ability increases as if you had also gained a level in the binder class. Your anima mage levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number of vestiges you can bind. You do no however, gain any other benifit a binder would have gained." So the character now has soul binding (0 levels of binder |+1 level of anima mage = 1, you can bind vestiges as a 1st level binder) which makees him unqualified for his Bind Vestige ("Characters who have the ability to bind vestiges through other means (such as the soul binding class feature) cannot take this feat. If you become a binder after taking the feat, you lose its benefit."), and Bind Vestige, Improved ("Prerequisite: Bind Vestige") feats. What happens when you don't qualify for a feat you have - the feat becomes unusable... So now you don't qualify for the prestige class you just took a level in - therefore you don't get the benefits from the class level - Thereby loosing you the Soul Binding bonus ability, thereby reactivating his feats, gaining him the prerequisites, reactivating his class level, getting back soul binding.... wait a second were looping here. Thankfully, we just took our 6th level, and can gain a feat to solve this problem - Improved Binding. This makes the anima mage class self sustaining on the binding front from 1st level, with the ability to bind a second level vestige. So you end up with Wiz1 - Extend Spell, Bind Vestige (from Human) Wiz2 Wiz 3 - Improve Bind Vestige Wiz 4 Wiz 5 - Intimidate (4) and Know Planes (4) achieved AnMage 1 - Improved Binding The Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feats are inactive due to not meeting prerequisites... If you want to be really cheesy, go purchase a psychic reformation and reallocate the Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feats, as Anima Mage is self sustaining with the Improved Binding feat. :D Finally, as high end recomendations for what vestiges for general purpose work, I would reccomend Haures (Mindblank, Major Image, Phantasmal Killer ....) and either Buer (Fast Healing, Poison & Disease Immunity - and protection for the rest of your party as well, Healing Gift, ... ) or Balam (Reroll every 5 rounds, +1/4 binder levels on Init, reflex saves, AC, ... )
pyro_cat 03-18-06, 09:02 PM	(Note that you can't do this easily at level 4, with Intimidate being cross-class, you must be level 5) Wiz1 - Extend Spell, Bind Vestige (from Human) Wiz2 Wiz 3 - Improve Bind Vestige Wiz 4 Wiz 5 - Intimidate (4) and Know Planes (4) achieved AnMage 1 - Improved Binding The Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feats are inactive due to not meeting prerequisites... If you want to be really cheesy, go purchase a psychic reformation and reallocate the Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feats, as Anima Mage is self sustaining with the Improved Binding feat. :D Well, there are a million ways to get Intimidate as a class skill, thats not a problem. Like the Flexible Mind feat. Makes two skills class skills. So CAN you get Improved Binding and apply it to Bind Vestige? Take two flaws: Wiz 1 (Scribe Scroll, Flexible Mind (Intimidate and Use Magic Device), Bind Vestige, Extend Spell) Wiz 2 Wiz 3 (Improved Binder) Anima Mage 1 As soon as you gain one level of Anima Mage, you meet your own requirements, even though you lost the feat that got you there, making it self-sustaining. And if it's legal to get this far, Improved Binder would apply to your Binder level (Anima Mage level). Right?
pad300 03-18-06, 09:47 PM	Well, there are a million ways to get Intimidate as a class skill, thats not a problem. Like the Flexible Mind feat. Makes two skills class skills. So CAN you get Improved Binding and apply it to Bind Vestige? Take two flaws: Wiz 1 (Scribe Scroll, Flexible Mind (Intimidate and Use Magic Device), Bind Vestige, Extend Spell) Wiz 2 Wiz 3 (Improved Binder) Anima Mage 1 As soon as you gain one level of Anima Mage, you meet your own requirements, even though you lost the feat that got you there, making it self-sustaining. And if it's legal to get this far, Improved Binder would apply to your Binder level (Anima Mage level). Right? Nope, count your feats. You need Improved Bind Vestige to get 2nd level vestiges to qualify for Anima Mage, and then you need a slot for Improved Binding. So in total you need 4 feats to qualify w/o class levels, one at the level you go into Anima Mage - 1 Metamagic feat (extend spell), Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestge to get into Anima Mage, and Improved Binding to stay in. If you need to make some skills not cross-class, you need 5 feats total, which is very difficult to achieve at lvl 3 (especially if your DM doesn't use flaws, as he doesn't like them), much easier at lvl 6. At your 3ed character level, it is almost impossible to have enough feats: lvl 1, lvl 3, human, flaw : Total of 4 feats, need 5.
pyro_cat 03-18-06, 10:08 PM	Nope, count your feats. You need Improved Bind Vestige to get 2nd level vestiges to qualify for Anima Mage, and then you need a slot for Improved Binding. So in total you need 4 feats to qualify w/o class levels, one at the level you go into Anima Mage - 1 Metamagic feat (extend spell), Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestge to get into Anima Mage, and Improved Binding to stay in. If you need to make some skills not cross-class, you need 5 feats total, which is very difficult to achieve at lvl 3 (especially if your DM doesn't use flaws, as he doesn't like them), much easier at lvl 6. At your 3ed character level, it is almost impossible to have enough feats: lvl 1, lvl 3, human, flaw : Total of 4 feats, need 5. 1 1st level feat 1 Human feat 2 Feats through the two Flaws you're allowed to take at first. 1 at 3rd level Looks like five to me. 4 at level one, through flaws and the Human bonus. 1 at level three. Enter the class at level four.
pyro_cat 03-18-06, 10:13 PM	Other problems, however. IF Improved Binding DOESN'T apply to Bind Vestige (and thus Improved Binding cannot and will not be taken without actual Binder levels), AND you lose the benefit of Bind Vestige upon entering Anima Mage (which you only would have been able to enter if you took Improved Bind Vestige, which would also be lost), you wouldn't have the 2nd-level Vestige Binding ability required for the Prestige Class, thus removing your eligiblity for the class by taking the first level in it. Does that mean you can't gain more levels, or something? Or is it that once you're in, you're in, regardless of missed pre-req's?
pad300 03-18-06, 11:43 PM	Other problems, however. IF Improved Binding DOESN'T apply to Bind Vestige (and thus Improved Binding cannot and will not be taken without actual Binder levels), AND you lose the benefit of Bind Vestige upon entering Anima Mage (which you only would have been able to enter if you took Improved Bind Vestige, which would also be lost), you wouldn't have the 2nd-level Vestige Binding ability required for the Prestige Class, thus removing your eligiblity for the class by taking the first level in it. Does that mean you can't gain more levels, or something? Or is it that once you're in, you're in, regardless of missed pre-req's? I think you are getting confused 1) "Bind Vestige, Improved" and "Improved Binding" are two different feats. "Bind Vestige, Improved" qualifies you for the class, "Improved Binding" allows you to stay in it. 2) What makes this work is the concept of simultaniety - Upon Gaining level 6, as I posted earlier, you get both a feat and a class level at the same time. You get a class level in Anima Mage, and you apply "Improved Binding" to the soulbinding ability that class level provides. This allows you to retain the ability to bind 2nd level vestiges, which maintains your prerequisites for anima mage. You need at least 3 levels of wizard to get the spellcasting requirement (lvl 2) (unless using "precocious apprentice" cheese from Complete Arcane...) and you need to gain a feat at the same level as you go into Anima Mage, otherwise you just entered an infinite loop - "Improved Binding" offers you an out from the loop, by making your anima mage level self sustaining w/o "Bind Vestige, Improved". Entering Anima Mage a lvl 4 is right out, unless you have some weird means of getting a feat slot for "Improved Binding", which you don't qualify for until you have a level of Anima Mage. It's like getting "extend spell" at lvl 1 and then "persistent spell" as your human bonus feat (also at lvl 1)... 3) After the dust settles, your "Bind Vestige" and "Bind Vestige, Improved" feats are useless, (and could be described as vestigial, in an atrocious pun), as your character does not qualify for their pre-requisites/special requirements. They are, however, unneccesary, as Anima Mage w/ "Improved Binding" sustains itself due to the wording of the feat and ability. A good analogy is achieving orbit in a satelite launch - the booster drops away, out of fuel, after the orbit is achieved... * I have used quotation marks around feat names in an attempt to make the difference between the feats more clear, eg. "precocious apprentice".
pyro_cat 03-19-06, 10:13 AM	I think you are getting confused 1) "Bind Vestige, Improved" and "Improved Binding" are two different feats. "Bind Vestige, Improved" qualifies you for the class, "Improved Binding" allows you to stay in it. Right. I know. I'm just trying to get in as early as possible. Everything you said looks good, I actually figured it all out last night, your post confirms what I was thinking. The only way to do it before level 6 would be to nab another feat slot at level 1 (as you said), stick "Precocious Aprentice" in there, and qualify at level three, using your third level feat to get "Improved Binding". I guess something that allowed you to swap out "Scribe Scroll" for a metamagic feat would cover this - is there a variant like that out there?
QuarianRex 04-26-06, 12:54 AM	Well, there are a million ways to get Intimidate as a class skill, thats not a problem. Like the Flexible Mind feat. Makes two skills class skills. Where is the Flexible Mind feat? I don't see it listed in the wizards feat list so I would assume that it was from one of the splat books. I've been looking for a feat like this for quite some time.
Subedei 04-26-06, 02:08 AM	Just take a level of Binder. It's extremely questionable whether Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige can actually qualify you for anima mage, and a one level hit to your spellcasting really isn't going to hurt you much.
Nifft 11-25-06, 02:52 PM	Human Conjurer Variant (UA) Conj 1 (Augment Summoning, Rapid Summoning, Improved Initiative, Extend Spell) Did I miss something obvious? How are you getting Augment Summoning without Spell Focus (Conjuration)? -- N
Iry 11-25-06, 05:02 PM	The Anima Mage is an unusual bird to tackle. However, you can achieve entry with Wu Jen 3: 1st: Bind Vestige. 1st: Bind Vestige, Improved. 1st, Bonus Metamagic: Extend Spell. 3rd: Skill Knowledge(Intimidate) However, as soon as you take Anima Mage 1 you lose the benefits of the Bind Vestige feat chain making you unable to progress further levels in Anima Mage. You should then seek Retraining or Psychic Surgery. One problem with Retraining is that it requires you to have met the requisites for the level you are exchanging the feat at. For instance, once you get into Anima Mage you no longer need Skill Knowledge(Intimidate) however you could not exchange it for Improved Binding because you did not qualify for it at 3rd level. However, since Anima Mage suffers it's own paradoxical entry flaw, one can assume that most DM's who allow Retraining will allow you to take Improved Binding.