Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tsalael 04-05-06, 02:29 PM	Im not much of an optimizer myself, but I had the concept and wondered if anyone had ideas or had posted something relevant. It seems like a natural combination flavorwise, as both deal with souls from different perspectives. I just like the idea of soulmelds being mistaken for a sign of demonic possession in combination with pact magic and being hounded throughout the world. Also, since both focus on Con, there is mechanical synergy as well. Honestly, who doesnt think the idea of vestiges interacting with pure soul-stuff is interesting? Maybe some custom PrC combination of vestiges and chakra binds/souldmelds? Any suggestions/advice? Thanks.
Speed Racer 04-05-06, 02:55 PM	Hey Tsalael. I thought the same thing. I think a prestiage class that advances both powers like the Anima Mage would be cool. I think the mix of binder and incarnum would give you the ultimate jack of all trades. I have not sat down to write up a class yet but I am open to ideas for abilities the class should have.
Todd 04-05-06, 03:07 PM	I've already created a custom PrC. See the last link in my sig. ;) I agree that it's a great fit in many respects.
Tsalael 04-05-06, 05:24 PM	Hmm...it seems to me that the Spirit Savant is unduly focused on pact magic. Unless you've only dipped into incarnum, it doesnt seem too offer that much in terms of increased capacity. Especially in terms of chakras.
Todd 04-05-06, 06:21 PM	lol! It's exactly on par with the Soulcaster & loads better than the Sapphire Hierarch, the two dual progression PrCs that appear in MoI. No way was I going to get much better than that. ;) Seriously it doesn’t take much with incarnum IMO. There are feats for the greater chakra locations if you want those ... but even without there is a host of stuff you can do with soulmelds that aren’t bound. If you go into the PrC with Totemist odds are good that you are going to have your totem chakra open and the others are largely gravy after hands, arms, & feet. If you go in as Incarnate then most of the melds don’t really need to be bound to be effective. Going in as Soulborn you will already have a solid BAB and too many chakra openings would probably be unbalancing. Soulmeld Vessel is an incarnum boosting class ability that’s pretty potent with the right melds ... and one that significantly reduces binder ability. There was one other ability I thought of but ended up leaving out ... I considered having some sort of floating double chakra feat where the location that you could bind or shape two soulmelds to depended on some sort of visage interaction. I never did get it working to my satisfaction though and, in the end, I decided that I had plenty in the class already. I'm open for suggestions though. BTW ... even without some sort of homebrew PrC you can do a lot by mixing a little incarnum and binding. Binder 11 / Incarnate 9 for instance is hugely flexable.
Dither 04-05-06, 06:31 PM	I thought the same thing upon a first reading of binding magic. After re-reading it and getting a better handle on the flavor of binding, I've sort of changed my view. Vestiges aren't truly soulstuff like incarnum is, they were souls but fell between the cracks of the renewable energy source that is incarnum. They are something different, something more. No longer souls, they are, in fact, vestiges of souls. While it is possible to find a synergy between the two, I think it's less likely than Incarnum/Magic or Incarnum/Psionics. I would think that an incarnum-wielder could probably use soul energy to strengthen her connection to the bound vestige though, but I see it more as a series of feat trees rather than a prestige class. There aren't really enough binding-related feats for classes/PrC's/etc that already exist... What I'd like to see is a hybrid Incarnum/Psionic base class. One that throws BAB and saves to the wind like the wizard/sorcerer and focuses solely on mental powers and shaping the energy of incarnum. On an almost entirely unrelated not, what do you think a Complete incarnum-based book would be called? They kind of boxed themselves in by calling their primary class the Incarnate. The Complete Soulmelder just doesn't resonate.
Bonzai 04-06-06, 01:45 AM	Heh, now that they are making a Complete Psionics, they should make a complete: Alternatives book. With Incarnum, True Name, Binder, and Shadow Magic type PrC's. Really I see Binders and Incarnum being very similar. While Incarnum draws on the general soul energy of those have been, are, and will be, Binders draw on a handful of exceptional souls. But really, aside from the Psionic Theurge (which they added as a web suplement), what can they add to incarnum? Maybe a soulknife PrC, and a druidic themed Totimist PrC. Otherwise it was a really fleshed out system. The True Name System needs a few PrC's that increase your utterances. Plenty of room to work on there. Binders are pretty neat, and fairly well done. Maybe a few more vesitges could be introduced. Then maybe a PrC that lets you select a patron vestige, at the exclusion of all others. This would be the dip PrC for other classes. Shadow magic? Well, to be honest I haven't finished with it yet, so I will reserve judgement.
sCRuLooSe 04-06-06, 10:57 AM	I have been playing around with a legal build that combines wizard, binder, and totemist. This is not quite what you are looking for, but it does give 17 levels of caster progression (19th caster elvel), 11 levels of totemist progression (6 melds, 3 binds, 8+1 essentia), and 8 levels of binder progression (2 vestiges, 5th level). The below build does use two flaws, but removing the last two feats and rearranging the rest will allow a player to bypass this if desired. Illumian (Vaulkrau) 1-Totemist Shape Soulmeld-Theft Glove (Flaw), Extend Spell (Flaw), Improved Sigil (Krau) 2-Wizard Scribe Scroll, Alertness (Familiar) 3-Binder Improved Binding 4-Anima Mage 5-Anima Mage 6-Anima Mage Share Soulmeld 7-Anima Mage 8-Anima Mage 9-Anima Mage Incarnum Spellshaping 10-Anima Mage 11-Totemist 12-Soulcaster Persistant Spell 13-Soulcaster 14-Soulcaster 15-Soulcaster Arcane Disciple (Healing or Competition Domains) 16-Soulcaster 17-Soulcaster 18-Soulcaster Open Chakra (Throat) 19-Soulcaster 20-Soulcaster Str 10, Dex 10, Con 14+5Book, Int 16+5Level+5Book, Wis 14+5 Book, Cha 14+5 Book Use Alter Self, Polymorph, or Shapechange, when needed to boost Str and Dex. The build gets two free persistant spells per day. Some good choices include Wraithstrike, Shapechange, Gtr Visage of the Deity and Divine Power(if competition was chosen), and Tensers Transformation once your spells have run out. This build is very weak at low levels (for all intents a wizard two levels behind with a couple of minor other abilities). By 15th level or so the build starts getting teeth.
Dither 04-07-06, 03:13 AM	But really, aside from the Psionic Theurge (which they added as a web suplement), what can they add to incarnum? Maybe a soulknife PrC, and a druidic themed Totimist PrC. Otherwise it was a really fleshed out system. I can think of several things they can add to Incarnum: (Following the example of the Totemist with the Magical Beast soulmelds) *Aberration Soulmelds (mmm... throat-bound tentacles made for eating brains... arm-bound tentacles that turn people to mush... mask that suppresses magic within a cone area) *Dragon Soulmelds (possibly epic?) *Fey Soulmelds *Giant Soulmelds (can anyone say Troll regeneration? How about stone-throwing?) *Ooze Soulmelds? (if you can get anyone to agree they have souls) *Plant Soulmelds? (if you can get anyone to agree they have souls) *Methods to tap into the not-quite-seperate-from-their-bodies Elemental and/or Outsider souls (Along the vein of the Psychic rogue) *An Incarnum rogue (Since their concepts are so closely tied together, there really should be...) *An Incarnum Soulknife base class (Incarnum's missing its Wizard/Sorcerer build) *A purer-strain incarnum-user than the Incarnate or Totemist (I look at the Incarnate and the Totemist as the Cleric and Druid of Incarnum. The Soulborn is like a Paladin. If you follow my train of thought, there are quite a few more openings for character archetypes--even if they're merely variant versions of the core classes...) *Incarnum Ranger (Someone who spcifically selects from a set of combat options and is based on mobility and survival--not quite a soulborn, not quite a totemist) (And perhaps, most importantly) *A unique character type/party role available (The soulknife is a decent example of a new type of mechanic involved in Psionics 3.5, the Warlock is another good example of a new character type. Before the Warlock, there was no such thing as a 1st-level "unlimited spell-like ability"... The dread necromancer is almost a new type because it's just... so... out there. It's like a 20th-level progression for a lich. All incarnum's got is three variations on its new system that are like self-equipped smurf version of the Cleric, Paladin, and Druid) ... [Begin Rant] It's my belief that not only is WotC missing lots and LOTS of potential for Martial classes and options, they're releasing new variant systems before they fully explore the potential of the previous systems ... look at Psionics. Poorly integrated, no wonder so many people are opposed to it. Symbionts, Incarnum, Weapons of Legacy, Grafts, Binding, Shadow Magic, and Truenaming (those last three have ONE BASE CLASS EACH... talk about shortchanging...), hell, WotC is neglecting the basic CRAFTING system, Profession, and PERFORM, for crying out loud. Knowledge checks are a joke. EVERY SINGLE MONSTER should have Knowledge check tables like their fancy-shmancy expanded prestige class centerfolds. [End Rant]
Todd 04-07-06, 09:06 AM	I can think of several things they can add to Incarnum: (Following the example of the Totemist with the Magical Beast soulmelds) *Aberration Soulmelds (mmm... throat-bound tentacles made for eating brains... arm-bound tentacles that turn people to mush... mask that suppresses magic within a cone area) *Dragon Soulmelds (possibly epic?) *Fey Soulmelds *Giant Soulmelds (can anyone say Troll regeneration? How about stone-throwing?) *Ooze Soulmelds? (if you can get anyone to agree they have souls) *Plant Soulmelds? (if you can get anyone to agree they have souls) *Methods to tap into the not-quite-seperate-from-their-bodies Elemental and/or Outsider souls While some of those would be cool ... I’m not so sure that they would really have worked as well as what we got. (Along the vein of the Psychic rogue) *An Incarnum rogue The Incarnate is the “Incarnum Rogue” ... he has trapfinding & can be more skilled than the rogue via his melds. The flavor is vastly different but mechanically he fits the bill perfectly. If you really want him to be more stealthy then it’s easy to do with the Shape Soulmeld feat or by going into Umbral Disciple. The latter even grants sneak attack if you are attached to that. Me I would rather have Dissolving Spittle or Lightning Gauntlets. (Since their concepts are so closely tied together, there really should be...) *An Incarnum Soulknife base class You aren’t the only one who feels this way, but I disagree. The Soulknife is a PSIONIC class first and foremost to me. The Mind Blade is very different than soulmelds or the other effects Incarnum classes generate. I *do* like the idea of mixing Incarnum & the Soulnife, but to me they will always be different things. (Incarnum's missing its Wizard/Sorcerer build) *A purer-strain incarnum-user than the Incarnate or Totemist Unlike Psionics, Incarnum magic wasn’t really meant to fill the “arcanist” or “divine caster” roles. In fact this was a more of a “martial” or “skilled mans” magic from the get go. I actually like that. If you want to play a Wizard you can. You can even easily create a Soulcaster and have both Incarnum and Wizardry. (I look at the Incarnate and the Totemist as the Cleric and Druid of Incarnum. The Soulborn is like a Paladin. If you follow my train of thought, there are quite a few more openings for character archetypes--even if they're merely variant versions of the core classes...) *Incarnum Ranger (Someone who spcifically selects from a set of combat options and is based on mobility and survival--not quite a soulborn, not quite a totemist) The Incarnate isn’t a cleric. He is a poor buffer & only a so-so healer. The Incarnate is a skilled character & sometimes a melee or ranged combatant. The Totemist is a damage dealer. He falls somewhere between the Barbarian and a Druid. He has plenty of natural attacks and short range blasting along with some powerful defensive and movement related melds. He can also stealth quite nicely. The Soulborn can easily fill the Ranger or Paladin roles. He can track & do survival quite well. No need for an “incarnum ranger” or some sort. I think that you see the poor skill points and don’t factor in just how much soulmelds can add to those for the Totemist or Soulborn. (And perhaps, most importantly) *A unique character type/party role available (The soulknife is a decent example of a new type of mechanic involved in Psionics 3.5, the Warlock is another good example of a new character type. Before the Warlock, there was no such thing as a 1st-level "unlimited spell-like ability"... The dread necromancer is almost a new type because it's just... so... out there. It's like a 20th-level progression for a lich. All incarnum's got is three variations on its new system that are like self-equipped smurf version of the Cleric, Paladin, and Druid) The Warlock uses a new mechanic but he fills the old roles just fine. He can be an archer or a UMD specialist. He can even be a poor man’s face. He takes the place of a Ranger or can complement a poor charisma rogue. He may use a new mechanic but he didn’t create a new party role. Ditto for the dread necromancer. Incarnum *is* new but you have to look a bit out of the box to see how it can be used to fill party roles. You have to drop the idea of Incarnate as Cleric because it matches skill point wise, proficiency wise, and save wise ... and instead take a deeper look at what his soulmelds really can do. What emerges is a guy who can have “virtual” skills out the wazoo, boost his melee capacity depending on alignment, and has lots of defensive and movement potential. The Incarnate isn’t going to be a good healer. Because of this he is going to have a really hard time filling the “divine caster” role but could potential fill the trapfinder role or, maybe, the damage dealer one. If you need a paladin in the dungeon and a ranger in the forest then the Soulborn can be your man. He can be a skilled rider or tracker ... or his melds might be shaped to boost battlefield control stuff like tripping ... or he might just go for pure damage. The Totemist isn’t going to be summoning like a Druid nor is he going to be healing either ... so he’s going to have as hard a time filling that role as the Incarnate does the cleric. Instead he’s stealthy, a fantastic natural attacker, and has some nice energy damage. His AC is better than a druid or barbarian & his Con grants him nice HP which his melds help somewhat too. On top of that he has some really nice movement and utility melds. This guy looks more like a Barbarian with wildshape or a scout. In fact IMO he falls somewhere between Barbarian, Scout, & Druid in terms of what he can do ... but he couldn’t fill that divine caster role the way a druid could.
Bonzai 04-07-06, 09:39 AM	You aren’t the only one who feels this way, but I disagree. The Soulknife is a PSIONIC class first and foremost to me. The Mind Blade is very different than soulmelds or the other effects Incarnum classes generate. I *do* like the idea of mixing Incarnum & the Soulnife, but to me they will always be different things. I understand your point, but what I was asking for was a PrC that could directly enhance a soulknife. It may not have to be specificly for a Soulknife, but it would help raise the enhancement bonus of a weapon, give decent babs, some bonus abilities, and most of all, some essentia. Incarnume blade should have been that class, but it falls short to me. If I could transplant the spine meld warrior PrC and make it for a twf Soulknife, it would be ideal. That would be an Awsome PrC, and give the soulknife a second PrC to branch out to. One that can focus on range attacks, and one that focuses on twf.
Todd 04-07-06, 09:55 AM	Incarnum Blade is close ... but yeah it's only so-so for most Soulknife builds. Let's see what the Illumine Soul PrC in CP is like. According to the preview it will involve the plane of positive energy and channeling that power. I doubt that its incarnum based but it might be close ... or it might be easily convertible.
LucRivNor 04-07-06, 05:39 PM	My build of a Tank Incarnum/binder DragonBorn Orc (From Race of the Dragon) choose heart +4 STR,-2DEX,+2CON,-2WIS,-2INT,-2CHA 1 Totemist 1 Feat : Dragon Tail 2 Totemist 2 Totem Chakra (use the Girallon arms) 3 Binder 1 Feat: Mutli attack, Vestige binding (Bind Amon) At this time, you have 6 attacks, 2 breath weapons for ranged (not so far at this level but will increased), DarkVision and 2 others soulmeld to asign. You could fly, teleport, boost AC or cant be flank. You are also a very good grappler. Only a BAB of +1 but lots of strengh. I suggest from them to qualify for Knight of the sacred seal and improved attack. So take rank in a Knowledge. 4 Binder 2 Suppr sign, Pact augmentation 5 Binder 3 6 Barbarian 1 Feat: Weapon Focus, Rage, +10 move Now Rage! (Thanks ORC!) Pact augmentation (to damage with 6 attacks!!), Now BAB of +4, so the natural attack will be at +2 but you have a lot of STR, more in rage. Breath of 3d6 at 30 ft at each 5 rounds and 3d8 at 25 ft at each 1d4 rounds if you are too far or want to affect lots of foes. I suggest to take a Great Sword for the weapon focus. Now, the Kight of sacred seal (KSS) part 7 KSS (Amon) 1 Align Weapon 8 KSS (Amon) 2 V.protection 9 KSS (Amon) 3 Feat : Bonus essentia or Extra Rage, V.P.Aura 10 8 KSS (Amon) 4 Vestige Power!! (more STR boost!) 11 8 KSS (Amon) 5 Apotheosis, vestige surge, Second Vestige bind!!! At this time : DR10/magic +2 STR,+2CON,+10 speed,+4 will (1/5 rounds) +1 AC boost for team (1/5 rounds) BAB +9 Breath: 8d6 at 50ft (1/5 rounds, 1/day without waiting) and 4d8 at 55ft(1/1d4 rounds) For the 2nd vestige, I suggest Buer (for healing), Paimon(offense: +4Dex, wirlwind attack and dance of death), or Malphas (invisilibity + sudden strike work well with Blink shirt soulmeld). From this point, you could try getting another prestige class of get Fighter or Barbarian level (both are Favored class). Have ideas for last level?
LucRivNor 04-09-06, 09:54 AM	I have been playing around with a legal build that combines wizard, binder, and totemist. This is not quite what you are looking for, but it does give 17 levels of caster progression (19th caster elvel), 11 levels of totemist progression (6 melds, 3 binds, 8+1 essentia), and 8 levels of binder progression (2 vestiges, 5th level). The below build does use two flaws, but removing the last two feats and rearranging the rest will allow a player to bypass this if desired. Illumian (Vaulkrau) 1-Totemist Shape Soulmeld-Theft Glove (Flaw), Extend Spell (Flaw), Improved Sigil (Krau) 2-Wizard Scribe Scroll, Alertness (Familiar) 3-Binder Improved Binding 4-Anima Mage 5-Anima Mage 6-Anima Mage Share Soulmeld 7-Anima Mage 8-Anima Mage 9-Anima Mage Incarnum Spellshaping 10-Anima Mage 11-Totemist 12-Soulcaster Persistant Spell 13-Soulcaster 14-Soulcaster 15-Soulcaster Arcane Disciple (Healing or Competition Domains) 16-Soulcaster 17-Soulcaster 18-Soulcaster Open Chakra (Throat) 19-Soulcaster 20-Soulcaster Str 10, Dex 10, Con 14+5Book, Int 16+5Level+5Book, Wis 14+5 Book, Cha 14+5 Book Use Alter Self, Polymorph, or Shapechange, when needed to boost Str and Dex. The build gets two free persistant spells per day. Some good choices include Wraithstrike, Shapechange, Gtr Visage of the Deity and Divine Power(if competition was chosen), and Tensers Transformation once your spells have run out. This build is very weak at low levels (for all intents a wizard two levels behind with a couple of minor other abilities). By 15th level or so the build starts getting teeth. Another way is too achieve similar is Human 1 Bard 1 - Able Learner, Bind Vestige 2 Bard 2 3 Bard 3 - A Metamagic Feat 4 Bard 4 5 Totemist/Incarnate 6 Totemist/Incarnate - Improved bind Vestige 7 Anima Mage 8 Anima Mage 9 Anima Mage - Incarnum spell 10 Anima Mage/Soul caster 11 Sublime Chord form here Anima Mage/Soul caster until level 20 (i suggest at least 8 levels of anima mage for the 2nd vestige bind) Cast 9th level, 2 vestiges, Meldshape as 7 th level shaper, Only need CHA high