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Bishounin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aimless Wanderer
09-22-04, 07:52 AM There is a brand new campaign starting up new my area soon, and was very much considering playing some sort of magic user/monk mix. I've looked at the Divine Fist (Defenders of the Faith) and it confuses me with the 0-level spells and the 5th level spells, but was wondering what class mixes would get me the best roll and roleplaying characters. 32 point buy stat system, and multiclassing isn't an issue.
The DM mostly likes to keep to 3.0 but has no problem taking something from 3.5. As for magic, divine or arcane, it doesn't matter. Was also wondering what spells and feats would be best, I have access to all the core books (3.0 and 3.5) the PrC books from 3.0 (S&F, T&B, etc) complete warrior, and about 2 years of dragon magazines. I can also talk him into letting me play a character with +1 LA.... +2 is pushing it (maybe catfolk or cansin or whatever)
Thanks for the help, It's really appreciated!!!!
Lo77o
09-22-04, 08:18 AM Maby you could make this work...

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=310993

you could even swithc out the last level of ur-priest with contemplative to get a domain...

Just a thought
Aimless Wanderer
09-22-04, 10:38 AM Doesn't look to bad, just at a glance, but what is an Ur-Priest? and which book can I find it in?
Aimless Wanderer
09-22-04, 04:05 PM ummm, anyone?
Blade2718
09-22-04, 04:20 PM Ur-Priest is most recently from Complete Divine, but also from Book of Vile Darkness. But it really only works with particularly evil characters. Your best bet for 3.0 Sacred Fist is Paladin 4 or Paladin 4/Monk 1. You absolutely need to get to Sacred Fist 8 as soon as possible for No Shadow Blows.
catharz
09-22-04, 04:29 PM Um, why did you title this thread " Bishounin"? Do you want your character to be a pretty boy or something?
Cold Napalm
09-22-04, 07:14 PM You know I was thinking the exact same thing catharz.
Aimless Wanderer
09-22-04, 08:58 PM i did want my bishounin to be a "pretty boy" and was wondering if i should take sorcerer, but then someone suggested to me divine fist.... was really hoping someone may have been able to point something like an arcane fist kinda concept, but.... beggers cant be choosers, eh?

thanks for the ideas, more would be greatly appreciated
Aimless Wanderer
09-22-04, 11:23 PM i was thinking something non evil preferable.

maybe somthing along the lines of a catfolk, from miniatures (think Yu Yu Hakusho, sorry if misspelt that, i'm tired)

32 point buy After Catfolk Adjustments
Str 14 14 (+2)
Dex 12 16 (+3)
Con 14 14 (+2)
Int 10 10 (+0)
Wis 16 16 (+3)
Cha 12 14 (+2)

(maybe if i got the toad familiar [3.0 for this campaign, mostly....] I could put two stat points from con into cha??)

Level 1 Monk Evasion, Flurry, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse
Level 2 Monk Deflect Arrows
Level 3 Sorcerer Summon Familiar, Eschew Material Components
Level 4 Sorcerer
Level 5 Sorcerer
Level 6 Sorcerer Combat Reflexes
Level 7 Druid Nature Sense, Animal Companion
Level 8 Druid Woodland Stride
Level 9 Druid Trackless Step Feat:alertness? is that needed by sacred
fist in complete divine, b/c it is in Defenders of the Faith
Level 10 Sacred Fist Flurry Attack, Free Domain, Puissant Fists
Level 11+ see below

Spells:
Sorc: 0- blah
1- shield, magic missile, silent image (think piccolo from the good 'ol days of dbz.... send the illusion first, catch them flat-footed?)
2- Cat's Grace
Druid: 0- blah 1- Cure Light Wounds, Entangle 2- Produce Flame

from there, depending if more melee or magic is needed, Mystic Theurge could be substituted for Sacred Fist, but ..... I'm tired, and I'm sure someone can make this basic idea concept better.

I'll hafta come up with some sort of arcane fist / bishounin tonight... need something to do...
Blade2718
09-23-04, 12:19 AM Level 1 Monk Evasion, Flurry, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse
Level 2 Monk Deflect Arrows
Level 3 Sorcerer Summon Familiar, Eschew Material Components
Level 4 Sorcerer
Level 5 Sorcerer
Level 6 Sorcerer Combat Reflexes
Level 7 Druid Nature Sense, Animal Companion
Level 8 Druid Woodland Stride
Level 9 Druid Trackless Step Feat:alertness? is that needed by sacred
fist in complete divine, b/c it is in Defenders of the Faith
Level 10 Sacred Fist Flurry Attack, Free Domain, Puissant Fists
Level 11+ see belowThere are so many things wrong with this build its not even funny. First would be that you take XP penalties unless Catfolk favored class is either Monk, Sorcerer, or Druid- IIRC, Catfolk favored is Ranger. Secondly would be that you're ruining your arcane casting progression by building in so many non-caster levels. Thirdly would be that you've included Druid levels when they have yet to blossom into real ultimate power. Finally, you've interrupted your Druidic casting by introducing levels of Sacred Fist.

Now, as I mentioned, the whole key to Sacred Fist is their 8th level ability, No Shadow Blows, which gets you Wis to hit and to damage. Which is RIDICULOUS because your Wis can become huge fairly easily. The fastest way into the 3.0 Sacred Fist is Human Paladin 4, buying the prerequisiste feats with your character level feats, and with a high Wis (in order to get the bonus Paladin spell at 4th level). The next way, which is probably the most optimized way is to wait a level and start as a Monk, which nets you Wis to AC, in addition to your hit and damage later.
Aimless Wanderer
09-23-04, 12:29 AM okie dokie, that makes sense. I'm just a bit tired, and about to head to bed. but.... here is what i just created. please, help tweak it out, compliment, complain, suggest, its all good.

my Bishounin

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4456255#post4456255
Blade2718
09-23-04, 01:01 AM Hmm...so you want an Arcane-based melee fighter? This'll be trickier, but you don't need a custom PrC to do it. You can build around a very standard warrior-mage (AKA gish) Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 to get three bonus Fighter feats (Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike, something else), a bonus Wizard feat, Channel Spell (through your fists), reduced Arcane Spell Failure (so you can wear certain light armors), and a total arcane caster level of 16 (8th level spells). If you decide you want 9th level spells, you can alter the build to: Ftr1/Wiz6/Spellsword 3/EK 10. Make sure one of your feats is Arcane Strike, which will let you add damage and to-hit to your melee attacks based on spell slots your sacrifice before the attack.
catharz
09-23-04, 02:33 AM Are you set on using your PrC or would you like an "official" build?

There are a number of viable options. For the charismatic Sacred fist, my reccomendation is Paladin (or Paladin variant) 4/Sacred fist 8. From there, there are a good number of classes to persue.

For a multi-PrC build, Arcane duelist (from the Random encounters - Way of the sword series), Witch hunter, Henshin mystic, & that lawful good PrC (Oriental adventures), and Master of the east wind (Dragon 314) are all good choices.

For a single PrC build, just make a straight Sorcerer/PrC build and focus on self-buffs. Outsider polymorphing is always good, because you can still look fairly 'normal'. Turning into a ghaele that looks like yourself isn't much different than magical girl or boy transformation. Give him a Monk's tatoo and a Monk's belt.

For the most 'optimized,' take a wizard, give them a level of monk, take the Kung fu genius feat (Dragon 319) and the aforementioned EQ. Then either try to get Ki strike (magic) is the cheapest way possible, or stay with caster stuff. A PrC that grants it as a first or second level ability is good (Henshin mystic may do this) for the Ki-strike route. Once you have Ki-strike, level in Master of the east wind.
Nazzareth
09-23-04, 02:57 AM I think monk 10, contemplative 10 be more your flavour

or monk 5, shou disiciple 5 contemplative 10, if you can get your hands on the unapproachable east.
Aimless Wanderer
09-23-04, 11:28 AM Paladin Sacred Fist doesnt seem too bad, assuming the rest of the party isnt crazily evil... then again, sacred fist doesn't require to be lawful.....

but where is the contemplative PrC from? I keep hearing it, but not sure where it's from.

btw, that wasn't an official build... I guess maybe bishounin isnt the right word... im thinking of anime unarmed fighter letting loose spells while they fight.... this is what I get for almost no sleep and blah blah blazZzZzZzZz

[edit] oh yeh, we dont have oreintal adventures book available..... but almost everything else I could probably get access to.
Khazra Reborn
09-23-04, 11:38 AM If you do go with the Sacred fist try and get the shiba protector in there aswell as 1 level of shiba protector gets you wis to hit/damage again, which is quitefrankly, sick.
Blade2718
09-23-04, 11:43 AM Sheesh, I've been saying Paladin 4/SF 8 for a while...

Glad to see I remembered the 3.0 mojo.
Aceon
09-23-04, 12:22 PM Now, as I mentioned, the whole key to Sacred Fist is their 8th level ability, No Shadow Blows, which gets you Wis to hit and to damage. Which is RIDICULOUS because your Wis can become huge fairly easily.

Ok, I'll bite. Care to illustrate some ways of getting your Wis Huge fairly easily? I have been annoyed by this for some time. It seems like other stats like Dex and Con and particularly Str can get HUGE fairly easily. ie: Draconic Polymorph into a War Troll 38 +8 + 6 enhancment +5 tome nets = 57 Str "fairly easily" But Wisdom? I can see starting with 18 + 4 levels = 22 +6 Periapt and +5 tome = 33 and that character is now epic, and assumes DM let's you have a +5 tome. Seems much easier to buff Str.

So tell me, 'cause I am playing a cleric and I am dying to know how to buff the Wisdom "Hugely"

thanks,

Aceon
Blade2718
09-23-04, 01:10 PM What, 33 not big enough? Wis is so important here because it does quadruple duty: spells, AC, to-hit, and damage. "Huge" perhaps was just a shot from the hip, I'll admit.
Aceon
09-23-04, 01:18 PM Damn, I was hoping you could help me out there.

My char can't get a tome to save his life, and though my DM will let me buy a periapt, I have an ancient holy symbol that belonged to an ancester and it gives me +2 natural armor and +2 extra turns attempts, but also takes up the necklace slot! I can't get rid of it for roleplaying reasons, and all the NPC's tend to always make their saves vs. whatever spells I can throw at them. Stuck with low wisdom. :weep: So, I am forced to be a melee cleric. Which is fine by me, but I get complaints that my char is too powerfull in that area, and outshines the fighter and archer in the party.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aimless Wanderer 09-22-04, 07:52 AM	There is a brand new campaign starting up new my area soon, and was very much considering playing some sort of magic user/monk mix. I've looked at the Divine Fist (Defenders of the Faith) and it confuses me with the 0-level spells and the 5th level spells, but was wondering what class mixes would get me the best roll and roleplaying characters. 32 point buy stat system, and multiclassing isn't an issue. The DM mostly likes to keep to 3.0 but has no problem taking something from 3.5. As for magic, divine or arcane, it doesn't matter. Was also wondering what spells and feats would be best, I have access to all the core books (3.0 and 3.5) the PrC books from 3.0 (S&F, T&B, etc) complete warrior, and about 2 years of dragon magazines. I can also talk him into letting me play a character with +1 LA.... +2 is pushing it (maybe catfolk or cansin or whatever) Thanks for the help, It's really appreciated!!!!
Lo77o 09-22-04, 08:18 AM	Maby you could make this work... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=310993 you could even swithc out the last level of ur-priest with contemplative to get a domain... Just a thought
Aimless Wanderer 09-22-04, 10:38 AM	Doesn't look to bad, just at a glance, but what is an Ur-Priest? and which book can I find it in?
Aimless Wanderer 09-22-04, 04:05 PM	ummm, anyone?
Blade2718 09-22-04, 04:20 PM	Ur-Priest is most recently from Complete Divine, but also from Book of Vile Darkness. But it really only works with particularly evil characters. Your best bet for 3.0 Sacred Fist is Paladin 4 or Paladin 4/Monk 1. You absolutely need to get to Sacred Fist 8 as soon as possible for No Shadow Blows.
catharz 09-22-04, 04:29 PM	Um, why did you title this thread " Bishounin"? Do you want your character to be a pretty boy or something?
Cold Napalm 09-22-04, 07:14 PM	You know I was thinking the exact same thing catharz.
Aimless Wanderer 09-22-04, 08:58 PM	i did want my bishounin to be a "pretty boy" and was wondering if i should take sorcerer, but then someone suggested to me divine fist.... was really hoping someone may have been able to point something like an arcane fist kinda concept, but.... beggers cant be choosers, eh? thanks for the ideas, more would be greatly appreciated
Aimless Wanderer 09-22-04, 11:23 PM	i was thinking something non evil preferable. maybe somthing along the lines of a catfolk, from miniatures (think Yu Yu Hakusho, sorry if misspelt that, i'm tired) 32 point buy After Catfolk Adjustments Str 14 14 (+2) Dex 12 16 (+3) Con 14 14 (+2) Int 10 10 (+0) Wis 16 16 (+3) Cha 12 14 (+2) (maybe if i got the toad familiar [3.0 for this campaign, mostly....] I could put two stat points from con into cha??) Level 1 Monk Evasion, Flurry, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse Level 2 Monk Deflect Arrows Level 3 Sorcerer Summon Familiar, Eschew Material Components Level 4 Sorcerer Level 5 Sorcerer Level 6 Sorcerer Combat Reflexes Level 7 Druid Nature Sense, Animal Companion Level 8 Druid Woodland Stride Level 9 Druid Trackless Step Feat:alertness? is that needed by sacred fist in complete divine, b/c it is in Defenders of the Faith Level 10 Sacred Fist Flurry Attack, Free Domain, Puissant Fists Level 11+ see below Spells: Sorc: 0- blah 1- shield, magic missile, silent image (think piccolo from the good 'ol days of dbz.... send the illusion first, catch them flat-footed?) 2- Cat's Grace Druid: 0- blah 1- Cure Light Wounds, Entangle 2- Produce Flame from there, depending if more melee or magic is needed, Mystic Theurge could be substituted for Sacred Fist, but ..... I'm tired, and I'm sure someone can make this basic idea concept better. I'll hafta come up with some sort of arcane fist / bishounin tonight... need something to do...
Blade2718 09-23-04, 12:19 AM	Level 1 Monk Evasion, Flurry, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse Level 2 Monk Deflect Arrows Level 3 Sorcerer Summon Familiar, Eschew Material Components Level 4 Sorcerer Level 5 Sorcerer Level 6 Sorcerer Combat Reflexes Level 7 Druid Nature Sense, Animal Companion Level 8 Druid Woodland Stride Level 9 Druid Trackless Step Feat:alertness? is that needed by sacred fist in complete divine, b/c it is in Defenders of the Faith Level 10 Sacred Fist Flurry Attack, Free Domain, Puissant Fists Level 11+ see belowThere are so many things wrong with this build its not even funny. First would be that you take XP penalties unless Catfolk favored class is either Monk, Sorcerer, or Druid- IIRC, Catfolk favored is Ranger. Secondly would be that you're ruining your arcane casting progression by building in so many non-caster levels. Thirdly would be that you've included Druid levels when they have yet to blossom into real ultimate power. Finally, you've interrupted your Druidic casting by introducing levels of Sacred Fist. Now, as I mentioned, the whole key to Sacred Fist is their 8th level ability, No Shadow Blows, which gets you Wis to hit and to damage. Which is RIDICULOUS because your Wis can become huge fairly easily. The fastest way into the 3.0 Sacred Fist is Human Paladin 4, buying the prerequisiste feats with your character level feats, and with a high Wis (in order to get the bonus Paladin spell at 4th level). The next way, which is probably the most optimized way is to wait a level and start as a Monk, which nets you Wis to AC, in addition to your hit and damage later.
Aimless Wanderer 09-23-04, 12:29 AM	okie dokie, that makes sense. I'm just a bit tired, and about to head to bed. but.... here is what i just created. please, help tweak it out, compliment, complain, suggest, its all good. my Bishounin http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4456255#post4456255
Blade2718 09-23-04, 01:01 AM	Hmm...so you want an Arcane-based melee fighter? This'll be trickier, but you don't need a custom PrC to do it. You can build around a very standard warrior-mage (AKA gish) Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 to get three bonus Fighter feats (Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike, something else), a bonus Wizard feat, Channel Spell (through your fists), reduced Arcane Spell Failure (so you can wear certain light armors), and a total arcane caster level of 16 (8th level spells). If you decide you want 9th level spells, you can alter the build to: Ftr1/Wiz6/Spellsword 3/EK 10. Make sure one of your feats is Arcane Strike, which will let you add damage and to-hit to your melee attacks based on spell slots your sacrifice before the attack.
catharz 09-23-04, 02:33 AM	Are you set on using your PrC or would you like an "official" build? There are a number of viable options. For the charismatic Sacred fist, my reccomendation is Paladin (or Paladin variant) 4/Sacred fist 8. From there, there are a good number of classes to persue. For a multi-PrC build, Arcane duelist (from the Random encounters - Way of the sword series), Witch hunter, Henshin mystic, & that lawful good PrC (Oriental adventures), and Master of the east wind (Dragon 314) are all good choices. For a single PrC build, just make a straight Sorcerer/PrC build and focus on self-buffs. Outsider polymorphing is always good, because you can still look fairly 'normal'. Turning into a ghaele that looks like yourself isn't much different than magical girl or boy transformation. Give him a Monk's tatoo and a Monk's belt. For the most 'optimized,' take a wizard, give them a level of monk, take the Kung fu genius feat (Dragon 319) and the aforementioned EQ. Then either try to get Ki strike (magic) is the cheapest way possible, or stay with caster stuff. A PrC that grants it as a first or second level ability is good (Henshin mystic may do this) for the Ki-strike route. Once you have Ki-strike, level in Master of the east wind.
Nazzareth 09-23-04, 02:57 AM	I think monk 10, contemplative 10 be more your flavour or monk 5, shou disiciple 5 contemplative 10, if you can get your hands on the unapproachable east.
Aimless Wanderer 09-23-04, 11:28 AM	Paladin Sacred Fist doesnt seem too bad, assuming the rest of the party isnt crazily evil... then again, sacred fist doesn't require to be lawful..... but where is the contemplative PrC from? I keep hearing it, but not sure where it's from. btw, that wasn't an official build... I guess maybe bishounin isnt the right word... im thinking of anime unarmed fighter letting loose spells while they fight.... this is what I get for almost no sleep and blah blah blazZzZzZzZz [edit] oh yeh, we dont have oreintal adventures book available..... but almost everything else I could probably get access to.
Khazra Reborn 09-23-04, 11:38 AM	If you do go with the Sacred fist try and get the shiba protector in there aswell as 1 level of shiba protector gets you wis to hit/damage again, which is quitefrankly, sick.
Blade2718 09-23-04, 11:43 AM	Sheesh, I've been saying Paladin 4/SF 8 for a while... Glad to see I remembered the 3.0 mojo.
Aceon 09-23-04, 12:22 PM	Now, as I mentioned, the whole key to Sacred Fist is their 8th level ability, No Shadow Blows, which gets you Wis to hit and to damage. Which is RIDICULOUS because your Wis can become huge fairly easily. Ok, I'll bite. Care to illustrate some ways of getting your Wis Huge fairly easily? I have been annoyed by this for some time. It seems like other stats like Dex and Con and particularly Str can get HUGE fairly easily. ie: Draconic Polymorph into a War Troll 38 +8 + 6 enhancment +5 tome nets = 57 Str "fairly easily" But Wisdom? I can see starting with 18 + 4 levels = 22 +6 Periapt and +5 tome = 33 and that character is now epic, and assumes DM let's you have a +5 tome. Seems much easier to buff Str. So tell me, 'cause I am playing a cleric and I am dying to know how to buff the Wisdom "Hugely" thanks, Aceon
Blade2718 09-23-04, 01:10 PM	What, 33 not big enough? Wis is so important here because it does quadruple duty: spells, AC, to-hit, and damage. "Huge" perhaps was just a shot from the hip, I'll admit.
Aceon 09-23-04, 01:18 PM	Damn, I was hoping you could help me out there. My char can't get a tome to save his life, and though my DM will let me buy a periapt, I have an ancient holy symbol that belonged to an ancester and it gives me +2 natural armor and +2 extra turns attempts, but also takes up the necklace slot! I can't get rid of it for roleplaying reasons, and all the NPC's tend to always make their saves vs. whatever spells I can throw at them. Stuck with low wisdom. :weep: So, I am forced to be a melee cleric. Which is fine by me, but I get complaints that my char is too powerfull in that area, and outshines the fighter and archer in the party.