Bit of a debate between friends [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bit of a debate between friends [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheMrBlack
08-16-05, 11:01 AM what level would a Gloura (Underdark Book, FR) have to be in order to become a Sublime Chord?

Gloura is 7hd +2 LA
Add Bard for skills
Add Sublime Chord, keep in mind skills required have been taken into consideration, my friend says 13th, 7hd + 2 LA, +4 levels of bard... I thought 12th...

Who's right and why?
AramilWindwalker
08-16-05, 11:07 AM if sublime chord requires 13 ranks in bard skills, than 12
Mommy was an Orc
08-16-05, 12:34 PM 12th. At level 12, you'll effectively be a 10th level character with 13 ranks in the required skills. At 13th level, you can then enter Sublime Chord.
saucercrab
08-16-05, 06:11 PM Are you sure your friend said that your character would have to be 13th ECL before she can enter it?

I'm thinking he said at 12th ECL you qualify & at 13th ECL you can enter it. (And I'm also guessing he said three bard levels, not four.) :D
eudas
08-16-05, 06:47 PM Sublime Chord prerequisites

Know (arcana): 13 ranks.
Listen: 13 ranks.
Perform (any one): 10 ranks.
Profession (astrologer):
6 ranks.
Spellcraft: 6 ranks.
Class Ability: Bardic Music.
Able to cast 3rd level Arcane
spells.
Min Lvl: Brd10.

Ranks are determined by HD;
max ranks = HD +3;
therefore,
min level to fulfill prereq's = 10.

You could use Bard to fulfill the skills prereq's, but I don't know what you'd use to get 3rd level Arcane spells as fast as possible.

eudas
Zallekin
08-16-05, 06:50 PM You could use Bard to fulfill the skills prereq's, but I don't know what you'd use to get 3rd level Arcane spells as fast as possible.

eudas

If you're using Bard to fulfill skills requirements, then you'll likely already have 3rd level arcane spells. BRD7 gets 3rd-level Bard spells.
eudas
08-16-05, 06:53 PM Yeah, you have to use Bard at some point to get the Bardic Music ability, but I wasn't ruling out some other kind of shenanigans using Sor/Wiz or some other kind of class to get it "Faster". It *is* the CO board, after all. :)

I also don't have all the info on that beastie race; maybe it gets some powers or SLA's that are 3rd level arcane?

eudas
Borin
08-16-05, 07:03 PM Yeah, I though Gloura got 7th level Bard spellcasting, or something close to that. That's probably the point of this build :)
Zallekin
08-16-05, 07:03 PM Yeah, you have to use Bard at some point to get the Bardic Music ability, but I wasn't ruling out some other kind of shenanigans using Sor/Wiz or some other kind of class to get it "Faster". It *is* the CO board, after all. :)
eudas

True. My thought on that from what I've read in the Sublime compilation thread and so on is more "why would you?". The main reason I've seen cited for taking SC is that it brings your spellcasting back into line with your character level (allows multiclass characters access to level 9 spells, etc.). If you're already taking SOR/WIZ levels, you don't need to bring it back into line. For the most part, I'd think you'd want to use quite a few levels of BRD since perform is a class skill and 7 levels is only 1 more than the 6 it takes to get 3rd level spells using BRD1/WIZ5.

Anyway, this discussion is handled much better than I have the time for over at the SC thread. Sorry I'm too busy (and/or lazy) to post a link.
saucercrab
08-16-05, 08:10 PM Yeah, I though Gloura got 7th level Bard spellcasting, or something close to that. That's probably the point of this build :)That's correct. Gloura (7 HD) have the spellcasting of a 7th level bard. Entering the bard class itself is merely to gain Bardic Music & to continue to fulfill the skill requirements (& the gloura has Perform as a class skill as well).

Zallekin,
One thing I brought up on the SC compilation thread is that a sorcerer or wizard entering SC could (in epic levels), gain double spell slots for spell levels 4th - 9th by maxing out the spellcasting of SC, then going back & continuing to advance the sor or wiz spells, by either advancing in the respective base class or entering a PrC. Or better yet, only dipping into SC for a level or two, then go into another PrC (that advances arcane casting) & max out SC, then switch back to advancing sor/wiz. The stormsinger (Frost) or virtuoso (CAdv) seem the best choices.
Zallekin
08-16-05, 09:08 PM Sublime Chord prerequisites
Know (arcana): 13 ranks.
Listen: 13 ranks.
Perform (any one): 10 ranks.
Profession (astrologer): 6 ranks.
Spellcraft: 6 ranks.
Class Ability: Bardic Music.
Able to cast 3rd level Arcane
spells.
Min Lvl: Brd10.

Ranks are determined by HD;
max ranks = HD +3;

That's correct. Gloura (7 HD) have the spellcasting of a 7th level bard. Entering the bard class itself is merely to gain Bardic Music & to continue to fulfill the skill requirements (& the gloura has Perform as a class skill as well).

Ah. That's a source I don't own atm. Perform as a racial skill is helpful, obviously. Depending on INT, your Gloura HD could give you 5 ranks in Listen and Know(arcana) in addition to 10 ranks in perform (not too sure about the HD rules, but that seems possible). That leaves you trying to get 28 ranks (the other skills, which are all BRD skills IIRC). Seems to me you could get that in 4 BRD levels (especially given the good INT I mentioned earlier). Is there a reason I'm missing why a Gloura with 4 BRD levels wouldn't meet the reqs for SC?

Zallekin,
One thing I brought up on the SC compilation thread is that a sorcerer or wizard entering SC could (in epic levels), gain double spell slots for spell levels 4th - 9th by maxing out the spellcasting of SC, then going back & continuing to advance the sor or wiz spells, by either advancing in the respective base class or entering a PrC.

Well, again, I have to wonder "why?" Your second suggestion about dipping for SC2 seems a bit more reasonable, at least for the implicit bounds usually observed on the COP board. Then again, we are having a conversation above about an FR creature taking class levels so, we can probably ignore those "guidelines" somewhat. I can see a Sorcerer wanting to dip that way, since it would increase his list of known spells. Also, if you advance in a PrC that gives spell progression, you'll have to pick your SOR or your SC progression. This still "feels" a bit wasteful to me. I understand what you're saying, in that it would increase the flexibility of the character. It just doesn't seem optimal for anything other than versatility, somehow. Just my opinion.

Interesting thought for those familiar with the debates over SC caster level: How would SC caster level be affected by some SOR/SC/XXX progression? Would it be affected at all?
eudas
08-17-05, 11:34 AM Could someone post the monster data for the beastie in question so that we can better optimize the character?

eudas
Mr. Dog
08-17-05, 11:58 AM Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)
eudas
08-17-05, 12:38 PM So anyway, it appears that that monster was not intended to be played by PC's, but if you're just building it to be a character-class advanced monster, then according to the calculations of Zallekin and myself, you would need 5 bard levels to fulfill all the skills prereq's; the monster itself satisfies the 3rd level arcane caster prereq, and bard1 fulfills the bardic music prereq.

7HD + 5 bard class levels = 12HD so on its next level (13th) it could take SC1. Note that its ECL is higher due to the +2LA so calculate its CR accordingly.

Thus, Mommy Was An Orc was correct, and slow people like me just had to trace through the logic.

If anyone spots incorrect logic/data above then pls let me know.

eudas
Zallekin
08-17-05, 12:51 PM So anyway, it appears that that monster was not intended to be played by PC's, but if you're just building it to be a character-class advanced monster, then according to Mine & Zallekin's calculations, you would need 5 bard levels to fulfill all the skills prereq's; the monster itself satisfies the 3rd level arcane caster prereq, and bard1 fulfills the bardic music prereq.

7HD + 5 bard class levels = 12HD so on its next level (13th) it could take SC1. Note that its ECL is higher due to the +2LA so calculate its CR accordingly.

So, there's something else I feel bears mentioning here. Based on the INT of the creature, given an INT advancement when it took it's first BRD level, it gains 27 skill points of the needed 28 over 4 BRD levels. In reverse engineering the skill ranks it gets just by being a Gloura with 7HD, we found that it's skill ranks are not divisible by 7. It has 62 skill points, which when divided by 7 gives a remainder of 6. Being the "I love it when it's open to interpretation" person I am, I could easily see a GM adding a skill point to a relevant skill to make it Gloura/BRD4 to get into SC. Either way, it comes down to 1 skill point that way.

Now if, for instance, one didn't care about the creature/NPC being pure BRD, one could have it pick up a ROG level. 2 ROG levels, and it gets evasion. Problem with skill pts is solved.

Edit: leave it to eudas to help me realize that the skill pts tolerance is too tight for 2 ROG levels. Still, Gloura/BRD3/ROG1 is eligible for Sublime Chord, meaning it's 12th HD could come from that class. Nice concept.

Z
eudas
08-17-05, 02:48 PM two things bother me about the gloura:

1) why does it have such a weird number of skill points? if you look at its skills, subtract its stat mods, you get a total of 62 skill ranks. 62 / 7 = ~8.8. if it had 63, that'd be 9 skill points per level. What the heck gets 9 skill points per level with an INT mod of 0?
2) why does it only have 1 feat? it has 7 HD... shouldn't it have 3 feats? 1st HD, 3rd HD, 6th HD?

eudas
Zallekin
08-17-05, 03:03 PM 2) why does it only have 1 feat? it has 7 HD... shouldn't it have 3 feats?

eudas

This is partially answered in the SRD Monsters as Races doc. Monsters don't get a free feat at their first HD.
hogarth
08-17-05, 03:34 PM two things bother me about the gloura:

1) why does it have such a weird number of skill points? if you look at its skills, subtract its stat mods, you get a total of 62 skill ranks. 62 / 7 = ~8.8. if it had 63, that'd be 9 skill points per level. What the heck gets 9 skill points per level with an INT mod of 0?

It has 60 skill points: fey get 6 skill points per HD (with 4x as much for the first HD). (3 + 7) * 6 = 60. The only skills it maxed out were Heal, Knowledge, Listen, Perform, Sense Motive and Spot (with 10 ranks each). Diplomacy has a +5 modifier because of +3 from CHA and +2 (synergy) from Sense Motive.
eudas
08-17-05, 03:50 PM perfect! thanks for reminding us.

now, just need the explaination on its feats...

eudas
Lord Schpungus
08-17-05, 03:58 PM This is partially answered in the SRD Monsters as Races doc. Monsters don't get a free feat at their first HD.

Where do you get that balonkey from? Everyone gets a Feat at 1st level. I think you're looking at the Multi-HD monsters as race section, that says "Monsters already get feats according to their Hit Dice, so you don't get more."

EDIT: I see now where you're completely wrong.

Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level

They don't get a feat at their first Class Level, because they already have hit dice. They already have their First Hit Die Feat and their x4 skill points for First Hit Die.
eudas
08-17-05, 04:25 PM sorry, zal and i chat on IM so i'd clarified that bit already.

As far as I can tell so far, at 7HD, it should have feats at 1HD, 3HD, and 6HD. So I'm looking for an explanation of why the one linked to only has 1 feat ( WF(light mace) ).

[side note: gloura bard 3/rogue 1 will have a 20% XP penalty, because its favored class is its "monster class".]

eudas
saucercrab
08-17-05, 06:41 PM Ah. That's a source I don't own atm. Perform as a racial skill is helpful, obviously. Depending on INT, your Gloura HD could give you 5 ranks in Listen and Know(arcana) in addition to 10 ranks in perform (not too sure about the HD rules, but that seems possible). That leaves you trying to get 28 ranks (the other skills, which are all BRD skills IIRC). Seems to me you could get that in 4 BRD levels (especially given the good INT I mentioned earlier). Is there a reason I'm missing why a Gloura with 4 BRD levels wouldn't meet the reqs for SC?Actually, if the gloura spends a bit of it's racial skill points on cross-class skills needed for SC, it should be able to make it by the 3rd bard level. With an Int bonus (which I'm pretty sure TheMrBlack's character has), it gets easier.

Well, again, I have to wonder "why?" Your second suggestion about dipping for SC2 seems a bit more reasonable, at least for the implicit bounds usually observed on the COP board. Then again, we are having a conversation above about an FR creature taking class levels so, we can probably ignore those "guidelines" somewhat. I can see a Sorcerer wanting to dip that way, since it would increase his list of known spells. Also, if you advance in a PrC that gives spell progression, you'll have to pick your SOR or your SC progression. This still "feels" a bit wasteful to me. I understand what you're saying, in that it would increase the flexibility of the character. It just doesn't seem optimal for anything other than versatility, somehow. Just my opinion.It was an idea I thought of to get double spell slots at 20th+ character level. And going sorcerer to SC has nothing to do with the gloura. Check here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6994977&postcount=246), for my recent revision to the build. It's pretty much a sorcerer with better skills & some bardic music by 20th level. After 20th level, it becomes a better-than-normal sorcerer with a bunch more spells known, & a lot more spells per day (as two separate tables of spell slots per day, levels 4th - 9th, means adding extra slots for a high Charisma to each set).

Interesting thought for those familiar with the debates over SC caster level: How would SC caster level be affected by some SOR/SC/XXX progression? Would it be affected at all?I don't think it would be affected. The text reads that the SC's caster level of its original spells & SC spells is the same (you add the SC caster level to the other caster level & use the total for each).

eudas,
The sneak-peek that Mr. Dog linked to is not the finished product. In Underdark, the gloura has Weapon Finesse (revised to any light weapon, etc.), Self-Sufficient, & Skill Focus (Heal). That was the only diff' I noticed just now, comparing the two.

And don't some monsters have a normal favored class (like wizard), when adding class levels to a creature with monster HD? IIRC, there are some examples (I think the naztharune rakshasa, from MM III, has rogue). If so, I can easily see bard being the favored class for the gloura.
eudas
08-17-05, 06:52 PM Actually, if the gloura spends a bit of it's racial skill points on cross-class skills needed for SC, it should be able to make it by the 3rd bard level. With an Int bonus (which I'm pretty sure TheMrBlack's character has), it gets easier.

We had assumed that one started with the as-is gloura, but yes, if one can redistribute the racial skills then that might cut down on some of the levels.

eudas,
The sneak-peek that Mr. Dog linked to is not the finished product. In Underdark, the gloura has Weapon Finesse (revised to any light weapon, etc.), Self-Sufficient, & Skill Focus (Heal). That was the only diff' I noticed just now, comparing the two.

ah, thank you, that adequately explains it then.

And don't some monsters have a normal favored class (like wizard), when adding class levels to a creature with monster HD? IIRC, there are some examples (I think the naztharune rakshasa, from MM III, has rogue). If so, I can easily see bard being the favored class for the gloura.

the source i was quoting on the favored-class is MonstersasRaces.rtf:

Starting Level of a Monster PC:
[...]
A creature�s �monster class� is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.

eudas
saucercrab
08-17-05, 07:43 PM the source i was quoting on the favored-class is MonstersasRaces.rtf:

eudasIt does say "a" favored class, not "the" favored class. ;)

Because, going by MM III:
1. page 11, armand, three racial HD, favored class monk;
2. page 43, dracotaur, three racial HD, favored class sorcerer;
3. page 55, death giant, twenty-three racial HD, favored class fighter; etc.

There are more in that book, including that rakshasa I mentioned previously.
eudas
08-18-05, 10:11 AM unless it's doing something computer-science-y, like superseding the default with a specified change. i.e., default favored class for any monster is their monster class, but specific monsters have favored class of a specific character class?

it would be interesting to see something that clarifies that, if such a thing exists; does a creature with a specified favored class have two favored classes (e.g. centaur)? is such a thing possible? my understanding is that each race can only have one favored class.

anybody have a clarifying source?

eudas

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheMrBlack 08-16-05, 11:01 AM	what level would a Gloura (Underdark Book, FR) have to be in order to become a Sublime Chord? Gloura is 7hd +2 LA Add Bard for skills Add Sublime Chord, keep in mind skills required have been taken into consideration, my friend says 13th, 7hd + 2 LA, +4 levels of bard... I thought 12th... Who's right and why?
AramilWindwalker 08-16-05, 11:07 AM	if sublime chord requires 13 ranks in bard skills, than 12
Mommy was an Orc 08-16-05, 12:34 PM	12th. At level 12, you'll effectively be a 10th level character with 13 ranks in the required skills. At 13th level, you can then enter Sublime Chord.
saucercrab 08-16-05, 06:11 PM	Are you sure your friend said that your character would have to be 13th ECL before she can enter it? I'm thinking he said at 12th ECL you qualify & at 13th ECL you can enter it. (And I'm also guessing he said three bard levels, not four.) :D
eudas 08-16-05, 06:47 PM	Sublime Chord prerequisites Know (arcana): 13 ranks. Listen: 13 ranks. Perform (any one): 10 ranks. Profession (astrologer): 6 ranks. Spellcraft: 6 ranks. Class Ability: Bardic Music. Able to cast 3rd level Arcane spells. Min Lvl: Brd10. Ranks are determined by HD; max ranks = HD +3; therefore, min level to fulfill prereq's = 10. You could use Bard to fulfill the skills prereq's, but I don't know what you'd use to get 3rd level Arcane spells as fast as possible. eudas
Zallekin 08-16-05, 06:50 PM	You could use Bard to fulfill the skills prereq's, but I don't know what you'd use to get 3rd level Arcane spells as fast as possible. eudas If you're using Bard to fulfill skills requirements, then you'll likely already have 3rd level arcane spells. BRD7 gets 3rd-level Bard spells.
eudas 08-16-05, 06:53 PM	Yeah, you have to use Bard at some point to get the Bardic Music ability, but I wasn't ruling out some other kind of shenanigans using Sor/Wiz or some other kind of class to get it "Faster". It is the CO board, after all. :) I also don't have all the info on that beastie race; maybe it gets some powers or SLA's that are 3rd level arcane? eudas
Borin 08-16-05, 07:03 PM	Yeah, I though Gloura got 7th level Bard spellcasting, or something close to that. That's probably the point of this build :)
Zallekin 08-16-05, 07:03 PM	Yeah, you have to use Bard at some point to get the Bardic Music ability, but I wasn't ruling out some other kind of shenanigans using Sor/Wiz or some other kind of class to get it "Faster". It is the CO board, after all. :) eudas True. My thought on that from what I've read in the Sublime compilation thread and so on is more "why would you?". The main reason I've seen cited for taking SC is that it brings your spellcasting back into line with your character level (allows multiclass characters access to level 9 spells, etc.). If you're already taking SOR/WIZ levels, you don't need to bring it back into line. For the most part, I'd think you'd want to use quite a few levels of BRD since perform is a class skill and 7 levels is only 1 more than the 6 it takes to get 3rd level spells using BRD1/WIZ5. Anyway, this discussion is handled much better than I have the time for over at the SC thread. Sorry I'm too busy (and/or lazy) to post a link.
saucercrab 08-16-05, 08:10 PM	Yeah, I though Gloura got 7th level Bard spellcasting, or something close to that. That's probably the point of this build :)That's correct. Gloura (7 HD) have the spellcasting of a 7th level bard. Entering the bard class itself is merely to gain Bardic Music & to continue to fulfill the skill requirements (& the gloura has Perform as a class skill as well). Zallekin, One thing I brought up on the SC compilation thread is that a sorcerer or wizard entering SC could (in epic levels), gain double spell slots for spell levels 4th - 9th by maxing out the spellcasting of SC, then going back & continuing to advance the sor or wiz spells, by either advancing in the respective base class or entering a PrC. Or better yet, only dipping into SC for a level or two, then go into another PrC (that advances arcane casting) & max out SC, then switch back to advancing sor/wiz. The stormsinger (Frost) or virtuoso (CAdv) seem the best choices.
Zallekin 08-16-05, 09:08 PM	Sublime Chord prerequisites Know (arcana): 13 ranks. Listen: 13 ranks. Perform (any one): 10 ranks. Profession (astrologer): 6 ranks. Spellcraft: 6 ranks. Class Ability: Bardic Music. Able to cast 3rd level Arcane spells. Min Lvl: Brd10. Ranks are determined by HD; max ranks = HD +3; That's correct. Gloura (7 HD) have the spellcasting of a 7th level bard. Entering the bard class itself is merely to gain Bardic Music & to continue to fulfill the skill requirements (& the gloura has Perform as a class skill as well). Ah. That's a source I don't own atm. Perform as a racial skill is helpful, obviously. Depending on INT, your Gloura HD could give you 5 ranks in Listen and Know(arcana) in addition to 10 ranks in perform (not too sure about the HD rules, but that seems possible). That leaves you trying to get 28 ranks (the other skills, which are all BRD skills IIRC). Seems to me you could get that in 4 BRD levels (especially given the good INT I mentioned earlier). Is there a reason I'm missing why a Gloura with 4 BRD levels wouldn't meet the reqs for SC? Zallekin, One thing I brought up on the SC compilation thread is that a sorcerer or wizard entering SC could (in epic levels), gain double spell slots for spell levels 4th - 9th by maxing out the spellcasting of SC, then going back & continuing to advance the sor or wiz spells, by either advancing in the respective base class or entering a PrC. Well, again, I have to wonder "why?" Your second suggestion about dipping for SC2 seems a bit more reasonable, at least for the implicit bounds usually observed on the COP board. Then again, we are having a conversation above about an FR creature taking class levels so, we can probably ignore those "guidelines" somewhat. I can see a Sorcerer wanting to dip that way, since it would increase his list of known spells. Also, if you advance in a PrC that gives spell progression, you'll have to pick your SOR or your SC progression. This still "feels" a bit wasteful to me. I understand what you're saying, in that it would increase the flexibility of the character. It just doesn't seem optimal for anything other than versatility, somehow. Just my opinion. Interesting thought for those familiar with the debates over SC caster level: How would SC caster level be affected by some SOR/SC/XXX progression? Would it be affected at all?
eudas 08-17-05, 11:34 AM	Could someone post the monster data for the beastie in question so that we can better optimize the character? eudas
Mr. Dog 08-17-05, 11:58 AM	Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)
eudas 08-17-05, 12:38 PM	So anyway, it appears that that monster was not intended to be played by PC's, but if you're just building it to be a character-class advanced monster, then according to the calculations of Zallekin and myself, you would need 5 bard levels to fulfill all the skills prereq's; the monster itself satisfies the 3rd level arcane caster prereq, and bard1 fulfills the bardic music prereq. 7HD + 5 bard class levels = 12HD so on its next level (13th) it could take SC1. Note that its ECL is higher due to the +2LA so calculate its CR accordingly. Thus, Mommy Was An Orc was correct, and slow people like me just had to trace through the logic. If anyone spots incorrect logic/data above then pls let me know. eudas
Zallekin 08-17-05, 12:51 PM	So anyway, it appears that that monster was not intended to be played by PC's, but if you're just building it to be a character-class advanced monster, then according to Mine & Zallekin's calculations, you would need 5 bard levels to fulfill all the skills prereq's; the monster itself satisfies the 3rd level arcane caster prereq, and bard1 fulfills the bardic music prereq. 7HD + 5 bard class levels = 12HD so on its next level (13th) it could take SC1. Note that its ECL is higher due to the +2LA so calculate its CR accordingly. So, there's something else I feel bears mentioning here. Based on the INT of the creature, given an INT advancement when it took it's first BRD level, it gains 27 skill points of the needed 28 over 4 BRD levels. In reverse engineering the skill ranks it gets just by being a Gloura with 7HD, we found that it's skill ranks are not divisible by 7. It has 62 skill points, which when divided by 7 gives a remainder of 6. Being the "I love it when it's open to interpretation" person I am, I could easily see a GM adding a skill point to a relevant skill to make it Gloura/BRD4 to get into SC. Either way, it comes down to 1 skill point that way. Now if, for instance, one didn't care about the creature/NPC being pure BRD, one could have it pick up a ROG level. 2 ROG levels, and it gets evasion. Problem with skill pts is solved. Edit: leave it to eudas to help me realize that the skill pts tolerance is too tight for 2 ROG levels. Still, Gloura/BRD3/ROG1 is eligible for Sublime Chord, meaning it's 12th HD could come from that class. Nice concept. Z
eudas 08-17-05, 02:48 PM	two things bother me about the gloura: 1) why does it have such a weird number of skill points? if you look at its skills, subtract its stat mods, you get a total of 62 skill ranks. 62 / 7 = ~8.8. if it had 63, that'd be 9 skill points per level. What the heck gets 9 skill points per level with an INT mod of 0? 2) why does it only have 1 feat? it has 7 HD... shouldn't it have 3 feats? 1st HD, 3rd HD, 6th HD? eudas
Zallekin 08-17-05, 03:03 PM	2) why does it only have 1 feat? it has 7 HD... shouldn't it have 3 feats? eudas This is partially answered in the SRD Monsters as Races doc. Monsters don't get a free feat at their first HD.
hogarth 08-17-05, 03:34 PM	two things bother me about the gloura: 1) why does it have such a weird number of skill points? if you look at its skills, subtract its stat mods, you get a total of 62 skill ranks. 62 / 7 = ~8.8. if it had 63, that'd be 9 skill points per level. What the heck gets 9 skill points per level with an INT mod of 0? It has 60 skill points: fey get 6 skill points per HD (with 4x as much for the first HD). (3 + 7) * 6 = 60. The only skills it maxed out were Heal, Knowledge, Listen, Perform, Sense Motive and Spot (with 10 ranks each). Diplomacy has a +5 modifier because of +3 from CHA and +2 (synergy) from Sense Motive.
eudas 08-17-05, 03:50 PM	perfect! thanks for reminding us. now, just need the explaination on its feats... eudas
Lord Schpungus 08-17-05, 03:58 PM	This is partially answered in the SRD Monsters as Races doc. Monsters don't get a free feat at their first HD. Where do you get that balonkey from? Everyone gets a Feat at 1st level. I think you're looking at the Multi-HD monsters as race section, that says "Monsters already get feats according to their Hit Dice, so you don't get more." EDIT: I see now where you're completely wrong. Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level They don't get a feat at their first Class Level, because they already have hit dice. They already have their First Hit Die Feat and their x4 skill points for First Hit Die.
eudas 08-17-05, 04:25 PM	sorry, zal and i chat on IM so i'd clarified that bit already. As far as I can tell so far, at 7HD, it should have feats at 1HD, 3HD, and 6HD. So I'm looking for an explanation of why the one linked to only has 1 feat ( WF(light mace) ). [side note: gloura bard 3/rogue 1 will have a 20% XP penalty, because its favored class is its "monster class".] eudas
saucercrab 08-17-05, 06:41 PM	Ah. That's a source I don't own atm. Perform as a racial skill is helpful, obviously. Depending on INT, your Gloura HD could give you 5 ranks in Listen and Know(arcana) in addition to 10 ranks in perform (not too sure about the HD rules, but that seems possible). That leaves you trying to get 28 ranks (the other skills, which are all BRD skills IIRC). Seems to me you could get that in 4 BRD levels (especially given the good INT I mentioned earlier). Is there a reason I'm missing why a Gloura with 4 BRD levels wouldn't meet the reqs for SC?Actually, if the gloura spends a bit of it's racial skill points on cross-class skills needed for SC, it should be able to make it by the 3rd bard level. With an Int bonus (which I'm pretty sure TheMrBlack's character has), it gets easier. Well, again, I have to wonder "why?" Your second suggestion about dipping for SC2 seems a bit more reasonable, at least for the implicit bounds usually observed on the COP board. Then again, we are having a conversation above about an FR creature taking class levels so, we can probably ignore those "guidelines" somewhat. I can see a Sorcerer wanting to dip that way, since it would increase his list of known spells. Also, if you advance in a PrC that gives spell progression, you'll have to pick your SOR or your SC progression. This still "feels" a bit wasteful to me. I understand what you're saying, in that it would increase the flexibility of the character. It just doesn't seem optimal for anything other than versatility, somehow. Just my opinion.It was an idea I thought of to get double spell slots at 20th+ character level. And going sorcerer to SC has nothing to do with the gloura. Check here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6994977&postcount=246), for my recent revision to the build. It's pretty much a sorcerer with better skills & some bardic music by 20th level. After 20th level, it becomes a better-than-normal sorcerer with a bunch more spells known, & a lot more spells per day (as two separate tables of spell slots per day, levels 4th - 9th, means adding extra slots for a high Charisma to each set). Interesting thought for those familiar with the debates over SC caster level: How would SC caster level be affected by some SOR/SC/XXX progression? Would it be affected at all?I don't think it would be affected. The text reads that the SC's caster level of its original spells & SC spells is the same (you add the SC caster level to the other caster level & use the total for each). eudas, The sneak-peek that Mr. Dog linked to is not the finished product. In Underdark, the gloura has Weapon Finesse (revised to any light weapon, etc.), Self-Sufficient, & Skill Focus (Heal). That was the only diff' I noticed just now, comparing the two. And don't some monsters have a normal favored class (like wizard), when adding class levels to a creature with monster HD? IIRC, there are some examples (I think the naztharune rakshasa, from MM III, has rogue). If so, I can easily see bard being the favored class for the gloura.
eudas 08-17-05, 06:52 PM	Actually, if the gloura spends a bit of it's racial skill points on cross-class skills needed for SC, it should be able to make it by the 3rd bard level. With an Int bonus (which I'm pretty sure TheMrBlack's character has), it gets easier. We had assumed that one started with the as-is gloura, but yes, if one can redistribute the racial skills then that might cut down on some of the levels. eudas, The sneak-peek that Mr. Dog linked to is not the finished product. In Underdark, the gloura has Weapon Finesse (revised to any light weapon, etc.), Self-Sufficient, & Skill Focus (Heal). That was the only diff' I noticed just now, comparing the two. ah, thank you, that adequately explains it then. And don't some monsters have a normal favored class (like wizard), when adding class levels to a creature with monster HD? IIRC, there are some examples (I think the naztharune rakshasa, from MM III, has rogue). If so, I can easily see bard being the favored class for the gloura. the source i was quoting on the favored-class is MonstersasRaces.rtf: Starting Level of a Monster PC: [...] A creature�s �monster class� is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it. eudas
saucercrab 08-17-05, 07:43 PM	the source i was quoting on the favored-class is MonstersasRaces.rtf: eudasIt does say "a" favored class, not "the" favored class. ;) Because, going by MM III: 1. page 11, armand, three racial HD, favored class monk; 2. page 43, dracotaur, three racial HD, favored class sorcerer; 3. page 55, death giant, twenty-three racial HD, favored class fighter; etc. There are more in that book, including that rakshasa I mentioned previously.
eudas 08-18-05, 10:11 AM	unless it's doing something computer-science-y, like superseding the default with a specified change. i.e., default favored class for any monster is their monster class, but specific monsters have favored class of a specific character class? it would be interesting to see something that clarifies that, if such a thing exists; does a creature with a specified favored class have two favored classes (e.g. centaur)? is such a thing possible? my understanding is that each race can only have one favored class. anybody have a clarifying source? eudas