Black Ethergaunts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Black Ethergaunts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BarbeChenue
01-10-06, 02:36 AM With their +20 bonus to intelligence, ECL of 20, and 17 effective wizard levels, Black Ethergaunts look like they would make awesome wizards.

My thesis is the following, and I'd like to know if others agree with it:

Even if they have more hit points and attack bonus than Wizards, even if they come packed with huge ability bonuses (+20 Int, among others) and natural armor, even if they have nice innate abilities, I claim that Black Ethergaunts are balanced as a PC race at LA +4.

Yes, I'm not yet providing arguments, just making a statement.

Do you agree? Why?
diphycue
01-10-06, 03:27 AM How about getting it level drained down to 1 HD... then you got an ECL 5 creature with 17th level casting ability...now THAT's efficiency.
runestar
01-10-06, 07:26 AM Yes, the rationale behind its LA being so low as compared to the other ethergaunts is that all its sheer no.of racial HD ends up mitigating what would otherwise be a huge LA down. Its reasonable per the current trend, even if it does seem to buck the trend a little. ;)
hogarth
01-10-06, 09:37 AM I've never played at ECL 20, so I'm not sure whether they would be balanced or not (I suspect it wouldn't be too bad, though). I think it would be challenging to create a "monster class" a la Savage Species that is playable and balanced from levels 1 to 20.
BarbeChenue
01-10-06, 07:23 PM Well, the way I looked at the creature was the following:

1. The most powerful classes are those with the most focus on improving their strengths, and enough versatility to do pretty much everything else.

2. A high level Wizard has access to more feats (both from levels and class features) and has a higher caster level (3 higher) than a Black Ethergaunt.

3. Most wizards will want to get into a PrC that gives lots of class features, which the Ethergaunt will lack.

4. Most racial features of the Ethergaunt are interesting, but don't improve on its Strengths as much as many PrCs do. Furthermore, Ethergaunts are just as vulnerable to Save-or-die spells as Wizards are; their higher HP totals, and innate natural armor won't help against that.

5. Unfortunately for the Ethergaunt, at the ECL he starts, most Wizards will have found combinaisons to minimize their weaknesses with PrCs and feats (as well as Templates, which the Ethergaun can't easily access due to his already high LA).

6. Even if he can get insane Save DCs with his high Int score, the time where high Save DCs were very powerful is behind him. SR is powerful at ECL 20, and his ability to beats it is inferior.

7. The Black Ethergaunt has 6 feats, a pretty limited total. A wizard with no multicalssing will have 12, so twice as much.

8. The Ethergaunt wins the Endurance match (with more bonus spells due to high incredible intelligence), but the wizard can do more with his spells.

9. The Ethergaunt is not as Epic-ready as the Wizard is.

10. The Black Ethergaunt is balanced against the Wizard because he compensates for his lack of specialization with very good racial features. Wizards can be made into completely "OMG!!!" builds because of all the optimization potential, while the Ethergaunt is pretty much WYSIWYG.
incubus
01-10-06, 10:57 PM I think we have to break it down to the differences. Are the amount of hitpoints, save DC boosts, extra spells, base attack and racial abilities equivalent to... 6 feats? Somehow I doubt it.
Khan the Destroyer
01-11-06, 12:52 AM I don't know if it is balanced or not, but I don't agree with some of the reasons you think the wizard comes out ahead.
A high level Wizard has access to more feats (both from levels and class features) and has a higher caster level (3 higher) than a Black Ethergaunt.
This is possibly true. But very rarely would a wizard not take levels in a prestige class if you are considering optimization. If the wizard prestige classes, then he doesn't get those bonus feats.

I agree with the caster level issue, since the ethergaunt can't benefit from practised caster. But items, spells, and feats help mitigate this.
Most racial features of the Ethergaunt are interesting, but don't improve on its Strengths as much as many PrCs do.
I guess it depends on what you mean by 'strengths'.

But in this case, we are comparing the ethergaunt more to prestige classes than to wizards.
Furthermore, Ethergaunts are just as vulnerable to Save-or-die spells as Wizards are; their higher HP totals, and innate natural armor won't help against that.
Not quite. An ethergaunt's HD is twice a wizard's HD. The ethergaunt also has a +4 bonus to Constitution. That is about twice the HP of an average wizard. This helps mitigate obvious threats such as hit point damage, but also against spells like the Power Words. Power Word Stun and Blind are less effective against an average ethergaunt, and Power Word Kill won't even work on an ethergaunt at full hit points (assuming an average of 104 hp).

Further, any save-or-die of 6th level or lower will simply fail automatically against a black ethergaunt (as well as any other spell of 6th level or lower). This is a powerful advantage. Since the ethergaunt has many more hit points than an average wizard, as well as a huge natural armor bonus and immunity to spells of 6th level and lower, the ethergaunt may have more resources to spend on other defenses.

In other words, the ethergaunt may indeed be better protected against save-or-die because he can afford better protection since he is well protected against other attacks.

And don't forget his +4 constitution bonus. Every little bit helps.
Even if he can get insane Save DCs with his high Int score, the time where high Save DCs were very powerful is behind him. SR is powerful at ECL 20, and his ability to beats it is inferior.
A wizard that starts with a 16 Intelligence can hope to achieve somewhere around a 32 Intelligence score by level 20 (+5 levels, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement). With the same starting score and equipment, a black ethergaunt can achieve a 51 Intelligence score by ECL 20. A black ethergaunt's save-or-dies will be so much stronger than the average wizard's. The ethergaunt will most likely be able to reliably end an encounter with 1 or 2 spells.

I don't agree that DC's aren't important at level 20. SR is a factor, but spells like Assay Resistance and items like the Orange Ioun Stone help mitigate that.

Check out the monsters in the MM at CR 20. The ethergaunt with a 51 Intelligence will have save DC's equal to 30 + spell level. For guys like the Pit Fiend, Balor, and CR 20 dragons, the chance to beat the saves for high level spells will be less than half. (Remember, Assay Resistance adds +10 to the caster level for defeating SR, and the Arcane Mastery feat lets you take 10 on the check. That is a total of +37 to defeat SR for the ethergaunt, more than enough). Heck, the black ethergaunt can reliably walk up to the Tarrasque and Imprison it (DC 39). The chance for the creature to negate the effect is 10% (as opposed to the base 50% for the wizard).

And that's not factoring in that an ethergaunt can wittle away each round at opponents with its at-will free action three-fold ability damage.
The Black Ethergaunt has 6 feats, a pretty limited total. A wizard with no multicalssing will have 12, so twice as much.
Sure. But a wizard with no prestige classes doesn't have much else. He has fewer hit points and a lower BAB. For those 6 extra feats he gets, he doesn't get a handful of useful offensive abilities, a huge boost to his casting stat and other stats (+42 total), and some great defensive abilities.

If the wizard does prestige, he doesn't get those feats.
The Ethergaunt wins the Endurance match (with more bonus spells due to high incredible intelligence), but the wizard can do more with his spells.
The ethergaunt with 51 intelligence has about 67 spell levels, while the wizard with 32 intelligence has about 59. The advantge may not seem so large at first. However, preparation is the bread and butter of the wizard, and having more spell slots available means the black ethergaunt is more likely to have the right spell for the situation.
The Ethergaunt is not as Epic-ready as the Wizard is.
I agree and disagree with this point. The ethergaunt doesn't have the nessecary skill ranks for most epic wizard feats (they usually require 24 ranks). But chances are that the wizard is in a prestige class, which means he won't be gaining bonus epic feats.

At epic levels, the ethergaunt actually can catch up to the wizard, gaining his last 3 caster levels, and using Practised Caster to finally rid himself of his caster level deficit (level 24). Also, he will have a higher modifier on his spellcraft checks for epic spells due to his large intelligence bonus.

I'm not sure about the level adjustment. The black ethergaunt seems better than a straight wizard at level 20. The lack of class features other than bonus feats helps that.

If we consider a wizard that goes into a prestige class... well, it depends on what levels of what class are taken I guess.
BarbeChenue
01-11-06, 02:24 AM Your analysis is excellent Khan, and I agree with its conclusions.

You are right that a Wizard that takes no PrC is weaker than a Black Ethergaunt, but so is it against a Wizard that takes a PrC. Now let's assume the Wizard is optimized with a fair amount of PrCs in the mix, some good unique class features you can't get with feats, and a few races and templates applied. That flexibility really can't be achieved with the Ethergaunt yet, who's really one big package deal. I'm almost sure the Ethergaunt will be close to balanced against our Optimized Wizard, and even if he is "barely" balanced, he will be much more "predictable" in terms of power in actual play. What I mean with "predictable" is simply that PrC, feat, race, and template choice can often make characters that are very different, in terms of power, with single class "standard" characters and other multiclassed ones. :)

My thesis is that the Black Ethergaunt is not a broken race like the Phaerimm and the Sharns are, and that as such they can be played.
runestar
01-11-06, 02:38 AM At epic levels, the ethergaunt actually can catch up to the wizard, gaining his last 3 caster levels, and using Practised Caster to finally rid himself of his caster level deficit (level 24). Also, he will have a higher modifier on his spellcraft checks for epic spells due to his large intelligence bonus.

??? If you go straight wizard/arcane spellcasting prc, an ethergaunt can never benefit from practiced spellcaster. Is there some loophole I am not aware of?
Khan the Destroyer
01-11-06, 03:00 AM Now let's assume the Wizard is optimized with a fair amount of PrCs in the mix, some good unique class features you can't get with feats, and a few races and templates applied. That flexibility really can't be achieved with the Ethergaunt yet, who's really one big package deal.
I understand, and agree to an extent. I think it really depends on what you are going for though, and what actual classes you take (note, templates are usually poor choices for casters, since a LA hurts caster level).
My thesis is that the Black Ethergaunt is not a broken race like the Phaerimm and the Sharns are, and that as such they can be played.
I agree here. Those guys are pretty nasty, but I think one can cast both arcane and divine spells, and the other casts his spells as spell-like abilities (now that's broken).
??? If you go straight wizard/arcane spellcasting prc, an ethergaunt can never benefit from practiced spellcaster. Is there some loophole I am not aware of?
Whups, good call. My mistake. You're right, the ethergaunt can't benefit from that feat.
BarbeChenue
01-11-06, 03:15 AM I understand, and agree to an extent. I think it really depends on what you are going for though, and what actual classes you take (note, templates are usually poor choices for casters, since a LA hurts caster level).

I included Templates in the mix as they can close the gap between the Ethergaunt and Wizards in terms of Level Adjustments, which could help in copmparing the two. Furthermore, low LA templates can be bought off when the variant is used.

I agree here. Those guys are pretty nasty, but I think one can cast both arcane and divine spells, and the other casts his spells as spell-like abilities (now that's broken).

Definately. Sharns have that "one sorcerer spell AND one cleric spell per round" rule, as well as tons of nasties like Regeneration, and totally overwhelming ability scores to go along dual casting powers. LA +5 doesn't do these 4 HD guys justice.

And you perfectly summarized Phaerimms.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BarbeChenue 01-10-06, 02:36 AM	With their +20 bonus to intelligence, ECL of 20, and 17 effective wizard levels, Black Ethergaunts look like they would make awesome wizards. My thesis is the following, and I'd like to know if others agree with it: Even if they have more hit points and attack bonus than Wizards, even if they come packed with huge ability bonuses (+20 Int, among others) and natural armor, even if they have nice innate abilities, I claim that Black Ethergaunts are balanced as a PC race at LA +4. Yes, I'm not yet providing arguments, just making a statement. Do you agree? Why?
diphycue 01-10-06, 03:27 AM	How about getting it level drained down to 1 HD... then you got an ECL 5 creature with 17th level casting ability...now THAT's efficiency.
runestar 01-10-06, 07:26 AM	Yes, the rationale behind its LA being so low as compared to the other ethergaunts is that all its sheer no.of racial HD ends up mitigating what would otherwise be a huge LA down. Its reasonable per the current trend, even if it does seem to buck the trend a little. ;)
hogarth 01-10-06, 09:37 AM	I've never played at ECL 20, so I'm not sure whether they would be balanced or not (I suspect it wouldn't be too bad, though). I think it would be challenging to create a "monster class" a la Savage Species that is playable and balanced from levels 1 to 20.
BarbeChenue 01-10-06, 07:23 PM	Well, the way I looked at the creature was the following: 1. The most powerful classes are those with the most focus on improving their strengths, and enough versatility to do pretty much everything else. 2. A high level Wizard has access to more feats (both from levels and class features) and has a higher caster level (3 higher) than a Black Ethergaunt. 3. Most wizards will want to get into a PrC that gives lots of class features, which the Ethergaunt will lack. 4. Most racial features of the Ethergaunt are interesting, but don't improve on its Strengths as much as many PrCs do. Furthermore, Ethergaunts are just as vulnerable to Save-or-die spells as Wizards are; their higher HP totals, and innate natural armor won't help against that. 5. Unfortunately for the Ethergaunt, at the ECL he starts, most Wizards will have found combinaisons to minimize their weaknesses with PrCs and feats (as well as Templates, which the Ethergaun can't easily access due to his already high LA). 6. Even if he can get insane Save DCs with his high Int score, the time where high Save DCs were very powerful is behind him. SR is powerful at ECL 20, and his ability to beats it is inferior. 7. The Black Ethergaunt has 6 feats, a pretty limited total. A wizard with no multicalssing will have 12, so twice as much. 8. The Ethergaunt wins the Endurance match (with more bonus spells due to high incredible intelligence), but the wizard can do more with his spells. 9. The Ethergaunt is not as Epic-ready as the Wizard is. 10. The Black Ethergaunt is balanced against the Wizard because he compensates for his lack of specialization with very good racial features. Wizards can be made into completely "OMG!!!" builds because of all the optimization potential, while the Ethergaunt is pretty much WYSIWYG.
incubus 01-10-06, 10:57 PM	I think we have to break it down to the differences. Are the amount of hitpoints, save DC boosts, extra spells, base attack and racial abilities equivalent to... 6 feats? Somehow I doubt it.
Khan the Destroyer 01-11-06, 12:52 AM	I don't know if it is balanced or not, but I don't agree with some of the reasons you think the wizard comes out ahead. A high level Wizard has access to more feats (both from levels and class features) and has a higher caster level (3 higher) than a Black Ethergaunt. This is possibly true. But very rarely would a wizard not take levels in a prestige class if you are considering optimization. If the wizard prestige classes, then he doesn't get those bonus feats. I agree with the caster level issue, since the ethergaunt can't benefit from practised caster. But items, spells, and feats help mitigate this. Most racial features of the Ethergaunt are interesting, but don't improve on its Strengths as much as many PrCs do. I guess it depends on what you mean by 'strengths'. But in this case, we are comparing the ethergaunt more to prestige classes than to wizards. Furthermore, Ethergaunts are just as vulnerable to Save-or-die spells as Wizards are; their higher HP totals, and innate natural armor won't help against that. Not quite. An ethergaunt's HD is twice a wizard's HD. The ethergaunt also has a +4 bonus to Constitution. That is about twice the HP of an average wizard. This helps mitigate obvious threats such as hit point damage, but also against spells like the Power Words. Power Word Stun and Blind are less effective against an average ethergaunt, and Power Word Kill won't even work on an ethergaunt at full hit points (assuming an average of 104 hp). Further, any save-or-die of 6th level or lower will simply fail automatically against a black ethergaunt (as well as any other spell of 6th level or lower). This is a powerful advantage. Since the ethergaunt has many more hit points than an average wizard, as well as a huge natural armor bonus and immunity to spells of 6th level and lower, the ethergaunt may have more resources to spend on other defenses. In other words, the ethergaunt may indeed be better protected against save-or-die because he can afford better protection since he is well protected against other attacks. And don't forget his +4 constitution bonus. Every little bit helps. Even if he can get insane Save DCs with his high Int score, the time where high Save DCs were very powerful is behind him. SR is powerful at ECL 20, and his ability to beats it is inferior. A wizard that starts with a 16 Intelligence can hope to achieve somewhere around a 32 Intelligence score by level 20 (+5 levels, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement). With the same starting score and equipment, a black ethergaunt can achieve a 51 Intelligence score by ECL 20. A black ethergaunt's save-or-dies will be so much stronger than the average wizard's. The ethergaunt will most likely be able to reliably end an encounter with 1 or 2 spells. I don't agree that DC's aren't important at level 20. SR is a factor, but spells like Assay Resistance and items like the Orange Ioun Stone help mitigate that. Check out the monsters in the MM at CR 20. The ethergaunt with a 51 Intelligence will have save DC's equal to 30 + spell level. For guys like the Pit Fiend, Balor, and CR 20 dragons, the chance to beat the saves for high level spells will be less than half. (Remember, Assay Resistance adds +10 to the caster level for defeating SR, and the Arcane Mastery feat lets you take 10 on the check. That is a total of +37 to defeat SR for the ethergaunt, more than enough). Heck, the black ethergaunt can reliably walk up to the Tarrasque and Imprison it (DC 39). The chance for the creature to negate the effect is 10% (as opposed to the base 50% for the wizard). And that's not factoring in that an ethergaunt can wittle away each round at opponents with its at-will free action three-fold ability damage. The Black Ethergaunt has 6 feats, a pretty limited total. A wizard with no multicalssing will have 12, so twice as much. Sure. But a wizard with no prestige classes doesn't have much else. He has fewer hit points and a lower BAB. For those 6 extra feats he gets, he doesn't get a handful of useful offensive abilities, a huge boost to his casting stat and other stats (+42 total), and some great defensive abilities. If the wizard does prestige, he doesn't get those feats. The Ethergaunt wins the Endurance match (with more bonus spells due to high incredible intelligence), but the wizard can do more with his spells. The ethergaunt with 51 intelligence has about 67 spell levels, while the wizard with 32 intelligence has about 59. The advantge may not seem so large at first. However, preparation is the bread and butter of the wizard, and having more spell slots available means the black ethergaunt is more likely to have the right spell for the situation. The Ethergaunt is not as Epic-ready as the Wizard is. I agree and disagree with this point. The ethergaunt doesn't have the nessecary skill ranks for most epic wizard feats (they usually require 24 ranks). But chances are that the wizard is in a prestige class, which means he won't be gaining bonus epic feats. At epic levels, the ethergaunt actually can catch up to the wizard, gaining his last 3 caster levels, and using Practised Caster to finally rid himself of his caster level deficit (level 24). Also, he will have a higher modifier on his spellcraft checks for epic spells due to his large intelligence bonus. I'm not sure about the level adjustment. The black ethergaunt seems better than a straight wizard at level 20. The lack of class features other than bonus feats helps that. If we consider a wizard that goes into a prestige class... well, it depends on what levels of what class are taken I guess.
BarbeChenue 01-11-06, 02:24 AM	Your analysis is excellent Khan, and I agree with its conclusions. You are right that a Wizard that takes no PrC is weaker than a Black Ethergaunt, but so is it against a Wizard that takes a PrC. Now let's assume the Wizard is optimized with a fair amount of PrCs in the mix, some good unique class features you can't get with feats, and a few races and templates applied. That flexibility really can't be achieved with the Ethergaunt yet, who's really one big package deal. I'm almost sure the Ethergaunt will be close to balanced against our Optimized Wizard, and even if he is "barely" balanced, he will be much more "predictable" in terms of power in actual play. What I mean with "predictable" is simply that PrC, feat, race, and template choice can often make characters that are very different, in terms of power, with single class "standard" characters and other multiclassed ones. :) My thesis is that the Black Ethergaunt is not a broken race like the Phaerimm and the Sharns are, and that as such they can be played.
runestar 01-11-06, 02:38 AM	At epic levels, the ethergaunt actually can catch up to the wizard, gaining his last 3 caster levels, and using Practised Caster to finally rid himself of his caster level deficit (level 24). Also, he will have a higher modifier on his spellcraft checks for epic spells due to his large intelligence bonus. ??? If you go straight wizard/arcane spellcasting prc, an ethergaunt can never benefit from practiced spellcaster. Is there some loophole I am not aware of?
Khan the Destroyer 01-11-06, 03:00 AM	Now let's assume the Wizard is optimized with a fair amount of PrCs in the mix, some good unique class features you can't get with feats, and a few races and templates applied. That flexibility really can't be achieved with the Ethergaunt yet, who's really one big package deal. I understand, and agree to an extent. I think it really depends on what you are going for though, and what actual classes you take (note, templates are usually poor choices for casters, since a LA hurts caster level). My thesis is that the Black Ethergaunt is not a broken race like the Phaerimm and the Sharns are, and that as such they can be played. I agree here. Those guys are pretty nasty, but I think one can cast both arcane and divine spells, and the other casts his spells as spell-like abilities (now that's broken). ??? If you go straight wizard/arcane spellcasting prc, an ethergaunt can never benefit from practiced spellcaster. Is there some loophole I am not aware of? Whups, good call. My mistake. You're right, the ethergaunt can't benefit from that feat.
BarbeChenue 01-11-06, 03:15 AM	I understand, and agree to an extent. I think it really depends on what you are going for though, and what actual classes you take (note, templates are usually poor choices for casters, since a LA hurts caster level). I included Templates in the mix as they can close the gap between the Ethergaunt and Wizards in terms of Level Adjustments, which could help in copmparing the two. Furthermore, low LA templates can be bought off when the variant is used. I agree here. Those guys are pretty nasty, but I think one can cast both arcane and divine spells, and the other casts his spells as spell-like abilities (now that's broken). Definately. Sharns have that "one sorcerer spell AND one cleric spell per round" rule, as well as tons of nasties like Regeneration, and totally overwhelming ability scores to go along dual casting powers. LA +5 doesn't do these 4 HD guys justice. And you perfectly summarized Phaerimms.