Black Flame Zealot [Archive] - Wizards Community

Black Flame Zealot [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arikas
02-17-06, 03:25 AM Okay i want to make a character (starts at level 15) that is taking Black Flame Zealot (and i want to max out this PrC)

im debating 3 rogue / 3 cleric / 9 BFZ
or
2 rogue / 3 cleric / 10 BFZ

any thoughts/advice?

edit : for the record - Forgotten realms (for gods/domains) is the setting
ZeroEffect
02-17-06, 04:05 AM Depends on where you want to go with the character. Is the campaign going to continue for a long time? What level are you going to eventually reach? Do you want to finish Zealot so you can proceed into epic levels with the class?

I'd probably take the 3rd level of rogue since it gives BAB, saves, and sneak attack. I wouldn't take any more levels of rogue after that. Then I'd focus on progressing my cleric casting.
Arikas
02-17-06, 04:17 AM thats what im more or less thinking (with only 3 levels in rogue)

HOWEVER it says skill requirements is 8 hide, 8 move silent, 8 religion

yet with the example they give (2 rogue, 3 cleric, 7 BFZ) it doesnt seem to work. am i missing something?

Character will be long term, my 10 archivist / 5 thaumaturgist died tonight :(

mostly going as support caster / support rogue character
ZeroEffect
02-17-06, 04:26 AM Their example must have taken some cross-class skills. You can get around that by taking the Able Learner feat at first level.

I'm sorry to hear that your character died. That always sucks. At least you get to make a brand spanking new character, which can be fun in itself. :)
MaplessManiac620
02-17-06, 06:54 AM For some reason, Shadowbane Stalker from Complete Adventurer seems like it would mesh well with this character concept.
Khazra Reborn
02-17-06, 07:31 AM HOWEVER it says skill requirements is 8 hide, 8 move silent, 8 religion
rogue2/cleric3 works if the cleric has trickery domain IIRC.
For some reason, Shadowbane Stalker from Complete Adventurer seems like it would mesh well with this character concept.
Except that it requires you be lawful good and thats not an option for the BFZ.

However, the SS is worth mentioning as an alternative to the underpowered black flame zealot. Why?
1.Feats. SS requires 0, BFZ requires 2
2.HD. SS has D8s, BFZ has D6s
3.caster levels. SS has 8, BFZ has 5 (refer to the ten commandments)
4.Alignment. good characters are generally more party and NPC friendly
5.Skills.S has 6/level, BFZ has 4/level.

Lastly, the cloistered cleric from UA generall synergises better with rogue as both use light armour & the cloistered cleric has 6skills/level.
For a 15th level character rogue3/cloistered cleric2/SS10 casts as a cleric 10 and only has 24 les skil point then a 15th level rogue, in my opinion making him the best support caster/support rogue around for his level.
Arikas
02-17-06, 12:17 PM 2 rogue =
6 points in hide
6 points in move silent
but only 2 points in knowledge religion (cross class... so technically 2.5....)
3 cleric (assuming it has trickery domain which ONLY gives it hide, not movesilent as well)
so
3 points in hide
1 point in move silent (since its cross class.. so technically can get 1.5)
and 3 points in knowledge religion

so thats
9 hide
7 move silent
5 knowledge religion

am i missing something? it doenst work.

also their example the guy has the fire and destruction domain so the trickery rule doesnt even apply here

also the character is in a evil campaign so SS is out ;) haha
rilem
02-17-06, 01:02 PM Archivist is much better for BFZ than Cleric, because of the Intelligence synergy. Use able learner for the skill reqs.
Arikas
02-17-06, 01:39 PM how does able lerner increase your skills? all it does is save the amount a skill costs.

so the maxes remain the same

(so a level 3 rogue can only take 3 ranks in knowledge religion because thats his max, 1 from first level, then 1 at 3rd level because the new cap increases)

unless im not understanding:

All skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same
UMiskatonic
02-17-06, 02:46 PM You are not understanding.

You can have a maximum rank equal to your level +3. At 1st level, a rogue can have a hide and move of 4 ranks. When that rogue hits second level, the maximums go up to 5, not six as you posted.

This happens EVEN IF the next level isn't rogue. A rogue1/cleric1 has a maximum of 5 skill ranks. If this character wants to work toward BFZ, he will probably have 4 ranks in move and hide from rogue, and 4 ranks in K:religion from cleric (assuming an INT that will get him 4 skill points a level).

Then, at third level, he becomes rogue 2/cleric 1. Eight more skill points to spend, and the maximums are now 6 ranks. Put two into move, and two into hide, and do what you like with the rest.

Alternating levels, you should have no trouble qualifying. Remember, once something is a class skill, it is always a class skill for the purposes of calculating maximum skill ranks.

You determine the cost of those skill ranks by looking at the level you just earned. If the skills are class skills, price is normal. If not, price is double.
Arikas
02-17-06, 03:32 PM So lemme get this right:
level 1 rogue(1)
Hide-4
Move Silent-4
K:Religion-2

level 2 cleric (1)
Hide-4.5
Move Silent-4.5
K:Religion - 5(max)

level 3 rogue (2)
Hide-5.5
Move Silent-5.5
K:Religion-5.5

level 4 cleric (2)
Hide-6
Move Silent-6
K:Religion-6.5

level 5 rogue (3)
Hide-7
Move Silent-7
K:Religion-7

level 6 cleric (3)
Hide-7.5
Move Silent-7.5
K:Relgion-8

Is that right? because at level 6 hes still why .5 on Hide / Move Silent

Jeebus crossclassing and skills sucks! lol i hate trying to figure out skills

UMiskatonic:

you say "This happens EVEN IF the next level isn't rogue."

So that means if you take 1 level of rogue, you will forever be able to get max of all of those skills?

Never heard that before... almost sounds ridiculous, why wouldnt everybody just start out with 1 level of rogue then?

By your method i could just do this:

level 1 rogue(1)
Hide-4
Move Silent-4

level 2 cleric (1)
Hide-5
Move Silent-5
K:Religion - 5

level 3 rogue (2)
Hide-6
Move Silent-6
K:Religion-6

level 4 cleric (2)
Hide-7
Move Silent-7
K:Religion-7

level 5 rogue (3)
Hide-8
Move Silent-8
K:Religion-8

level 6 cleric (3)
Hide-9
Move Silent-9
K:Relgion-9

Is that how it works?
Arikas
02-17-06, 04:12 PM Also, why does the PrC say you need exotic weapon prof... when it isnt even an exotic weapon?
diphycue
02-17-06, 04:24 PM By your method i could just do this:

level 1 rogue(1)
Hide-4
Move Silent-4

level 2 cleric (1)
Hide-5
Move Silent-5
K:Religion - 5

level 3 rogue (2)
Hide-6
Move Silent-6
K:Religion-6

level 4 cleric (2)
Hide-7
Move Silent-7
K:Religion-7

level 5 rogue (3)
Hide-8
Move Silent-8
K:Religion-8

level 6 cleric (3)
Hide-9
Move Silent-9
K:Relgion-9

Is that how it works?

As stupid as it seems...yes, that's how it works. Once something is a class skill for any class it's max ranks are character level +3...however, whatever class you are currently advancing determines whether it costs 1 or 2 skill points per rank. So, a rog1/clr1 can have hide of 5, but they'd have paid a total of 6 points.
Arikas
02-18-06, 01:45 AM makes sense, able learner is MUCH more useful than what i once thought

anyways back to my "exotic weapon prof" question... why? its martial
scrollreader
02-18-06, 01:57 AM It used to be exotic, in 3.0, due to halfling vorpal/keen weaponmasters.

Yes, really.
PhoenixInferno
02-18-06, 02:26 AM If you're playing in Faerun, then the Black Flame Zealot should really be limited to worshippers of Kossuth (see Unapproachable East).
Arikas
02-18-06, 02:36 AM But... its not anymore! (An exotic) BAH! lol
(yup im following kossuth, fire and suffering domains most likely)
Khazra Reborn
02-18-06, 08:34 AM It doesnt matter that its martial or exotic, eitherway your going to need a feat to be proficient.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arikas 02-17-06, 03:25 AM	Okay i want to make a character (starts at level 15) that is taking Black Flame Zealot (and i want to max out this PrC) im debating 3 rogue / 3 cleric / 9 BFZ or 2 rogue / 3 cleric / 10 BFZ any thoughts/advice? edit : for the record - Forgotten realms (for gods/domains) is the setting
ZeroEffect 02-17-06, 04:05 AM	Depends on where you want to go with the character. Is the campaign going to continue for a long time? What level are you going to eventually reach? Do you want to finish Zealot so you can proceed into epic levels with the class? I'd probably take the 3rd level of rogue since it gives BAB, saves, and sneak attack. I wouldn't take any more levels of rogue after that. Then I'd focus on progressing my cleric casting.
Arikas 02-17-06, 04:17 AM	thats what im more or less thinking (with only 3 levels in rogue) HOWEVER it says skill requirements is 8 hide, 8 move silent, 8 religion yet with the example they give (2 rogue, 3 cleric, 7 BFZ) it doesnt seem to work. am i missing something? Character will be long term, my 10 archivist / 5 thaumaturgist died tonight :( mostly going as support caster / support rogue character
ZeroEffect 02-17-06, 04:26 AM	Their example must have taken some cross-class skills. You can get around that by taking the Able Learner feat at first level. I'm sorry to hear that your character died. That always sucks. At least you get to make a brand spanking new character, which can be fun in itself. :)
MaplessManiac620 02-17-06, 06:54 AM	For some reason, Shadowbane Stalker from Complete Adventurer seems like it would mesh well with this character concept.
Khazra Reborn 02-17-06, 07:31 AM	HOWEVER it says skill requirements is 8 hide, 8 move silent, 8 religion rogue2/cleric3 works if the cleric has trickery domain IIRC. For some reason, Shadowbane Stalker from Complete Adventurer seems like it would mesh well with this character concept. Except that it requires you be lawful good and thats not an option for the BFZ. However, the SS is worth mentioning as an alternative to the underpowered black flame zealot. Why? 1.Feats. SS requires 0, BFZ requires 2 2.HD. SS has D8s, BFZ has D6s 3.caster levels. SS has 8, BFZ has 5 (refer to the ten commandments) 4.Alignment. good characters are generally more party and NPC friendly 5.Skills.S has 6/level, BFZ has 4/level. Lastly, the cloistered cleric from UA generall synergises better with rogue as both use light armour & the cloistered cleric has 6skills/level. For a 15th level character rogue3/cloistered cleric2/SS10 casts as a cleric 10 and only has 24 les skil point then a 15th level rogue, in my opinion making him the best support caster/support rogue around for his level.
Arikas 02-17-06, 12:17 PM	2 rogue = 6 points in hide 6 points in move silent but only 2 points in knowledge religion (cross class... so technically 2.5....) 3 cleric (assuming it has trickery domain which ONLY gives it hide, not movesilent as well) so 3 points in hide 1 point in move silent (since its cross class.. so technically can get 1.5) and 3 points in knowledge religion so thats 9 hide 7 move silent 5 knowledge religion am i missing something? it doenst work. also their example the guy has the fire and destruction domain so the trickery rule doesnt even apply here also the character is in a evil campaign so SS is out ;) haha
rilem 02-17-06, 01:02 PM	Archivist is much better for BFZ than Cleric, because of the Intelligence synergy. Use able learner for the skill reqs.
Arikas 02-17-06, 01:39 PM	how does able lerner increase your skills? all it does is save the amount a skill costs. so the maxes remain the same (so a level 3 rogue can only take 3 ranks in knowledge religion because thats his max, 1 from first level, then 1 at 3rd level because the new cap increases) unless im not understanding: All skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same
UMiskatonic 02-17-06, 02:46 PM	You are not understanding. You can have a maximum rank equal to your level +3. At 1st level, a rogue can have a hide and move of 4 ranks. When that rogue hits second level, the maximums go up to 5, not six as you posted. This happens EVEN IF the next level isn't rogue. A rogue1/cleric1 has a maximum of 5 skill ranks. If this character wants to work toward BFZ, he will probably have 4 ranks in move and hide from rogue, and 4 ranks in K:religion from cleric (assuming an INT that will get him 4 skill points a level). Then, at third level, he becomes rogue 2/cleric 1. Eight more skill points to spend, and the maximums are now 6 ranks. Put two into move, and two into hide, and do what you like with the rest. Alternating levels, you should have no trouble qualifying. Remember, once something is a class skill, it is always a class skill for the purposes of calculating maximum skill ranks. You determine the cost of those skill ranks by looking at the level you just earned. If the skills are class skills, price is normal. If not, price is double.
Arikas 02-17-06, 03:32 PM	So lemme get this right: level 1 rogue(1) Hide-4 Move Silent-4 K:Religion-2 level 2 cleric (1) Hide-4.5 Move Silent-4.5 K:Religion - 5(max) level 3 rogue (2) Hide-5.5 Move Silent-5.5 K:Religion-5.5 level 4 cleric (2) Hide-6 Move Silent-6 K:Religion-6.5 level 5 rogue (3) Hide-7 Move Silent-7 K:Religion-7 level 6 cleric (3) Hide-7.5 Move Silent-7.5 K:Relgion-8 Is that right? because at level 6 hes still why .5 on Hide / Move Silent Jeebus crossclassing and skills sucks! lol i hate trying to figure out skills UMiskatonic: you say "This happens EVEN IF the next level isn't rogue." So that means if you take 1 level of rogue, you will forever be able to get max of all of those skills? Never heard that before... almost sounds ridiculous, why wouldnt everybody just start out with 1 level of rogue then? By your method i could just do this: level 1 rogue(1) Hide-4 Move Silent-4 level 2 cleric (1) Hide-5 Move Silent-5 K:Religion - 5 level 3 rogue (2) Hide-6 Move Silent-6 K:Religion-6 level 4 cleric (2) Hide-7 Move Silent-7 K:Religion-7 level 5 rogue (3) Hide-8 Move Silent-8 K:Religion-8 level 6 cleric (3) Hide-9 Move Silent-9 K:Relgion-9 Is that how it works?
Arikas 02-17-06, 04:12 PM	Also, why does the PrC say you need exotic weapon prof... when it isnt even an exotic weapon?
diphycue 02-17-06, 04:24 PM	By your method i could just do this: level 1 rogue(1) Hide-4 Move Silent-4 level 2 cleric (1) Hide-5 Move Silent-5 K:Religion - 5 level 3 rogue (2) Hide-6 Move Silent-6 K:Religion-6 level 4 cleric (2) Hide-7 Move Silent-7 K:Religion-7 level 5 rogue (3) Hide-8 Move Silent-8 K:Religion-8 level 6 cleric (3) Hide-9 Move Silent-9 K:Relgion-9 Is that how it works? As stupid as it seems...yes, that's how it works. Once something is a class skill for any class it's max ranks are character level +3...however, whatever class you are currently advancing determines whether it costs 1 or 2 skill points per rank. So, a rog1/clr1 can have hide of 5, but they'd have paid a total of 6 points.
Arikas 02-18-06, 01:45 AM	makes sense, able learner is MUCH more useful than what i once thought anyways back to my "exotic weapon prof" question... why? its martial
scrollreader 02-18-06, 01:57 AM	It used to be exotic, in 3.0, due to halfling vorpal/keen weaponmasters. Yes, really.
PhoenixInferno 02-18-06, 02:26 AM	If you're playing in Faerun, then the Black Flame Zealot should really be limited to worshippers of Kossuth (see Unapproachable East).
Arikas 02-18-06, 02:36 AM	But... its not anymore! (An exotic) BAH! lol (yup im following kossuth, fire and suffering domains most likely)
Khazra Reborn 02-18-06, 08:34 AM	It doesnt matter that its martial or exotic, eitherway your going to need a feat to be proficient.