Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Masque 02-26-04, 09:18 PM	New game, new character time. Snow posted awhile ago In my eyes, an evil Blackguard who desires the pinnacle of power will find it by following up his Blackguard career by entering the Nar Demonbinder PrC (UE book). Prefix6 / Blackguard7 / NarDemonbinder7 With this build, he will end up with 4 attacks @ BAB of 16 or 17 (Geomancer helps with the latter) and 8th level arcane spells. His emphasis on a high CHA for Blackguard's Divine Grace will benefit all his ND powers and spellcasting (for DC's and bonus spells). Your prefix should be all levels that net you +1BAB/Level for maximum melee carnage potential. It will also help balance out the ND HD of d6 ... making you a potent melee spellcaster in your latter levels. If this appeals to you, I can provide you more build-out information on this character archetype. This idea is just sexy. I love playing evil characters, and after seeing this I just knew I had to test it out. The type of combat I'm wanting my Blackguard to lean towards is with a spiked-chain. I'm looking for ways to optimize this into the build. I'm interested in what prefix classes would best compliment this, feats I should take, etc. I'm really hoping Snow takes a look at this thread and fills in some of the blanks. Comments from everyone else are quite welcome. If Snow or anyone has an actual build progression, that would be an awesome refrence. I'm looking very forward to getting this bad-boy up and conquering ASAP. :devil: -M **EDIT** Forgot to mention a few things: 1.) House rule... the DM thinks spending feats on things like "exotic weapon prof." is stupid, so spiked chain is considered a normal weapon. 2.) rules are v3.5
catharz 02-26-04, 10:52 PM	So what exactly is the question?
balefire42 02-26-04, 11:02 PM	Here is an almost workable triping build. The problem is that I think you can only get 4.5 ranks in move silently by level 6. Educated is neccessary to get 10 ranks in knowledge: the plains at level 13, without it you could only get a max of 8 ranks. If there is a +1 BAB class that has knowledge: the planes as a class skill, Ranger1/Class1/Fighter 4 would work. Prefix: Fighter 6 Human: Educated 1: Combat Expertise Fighter: Imp. Trip Fighter: Combat Reflexes 3: Power Attack Fighter: Cleave 6: Iron Will Fighter: Imp. Sunder 9: Divine Might 12: Spell Focus: Conjuration 15: Arcane Strike 18:
PhaedrusXY 02-27-04, 12:06 AM	Someone with Complete Warrior check the Hexblade, it might have that skill as a class skill. Edit: Wow, that's a real conundrum. I can't find a better way to do it than taking the feat, unless Hexblade has Know: the Planes as a class skill. I'd take Augment Summoning as the 18th level feat in the build.
Gharlane 02-27-04, 12:43 AM	Masque, Prefix6 / Blackguard7 / NarDemonbinder7 This is oversimplifying the case. In addition to +6 BAB a prefix6 qualifying for blackguard must also have 5 ranks in hide which can only be obtained at level 7 as a cross class skill - meaning at least 1 of the 6 prefix levels must be ranger. Next, a Blackguard 7 would need a wisdom of 18 to cast fourth level spells in order to meet the NarDemonbinder spellcasting requirement. Considering how the Nar's spells and the Blk's divine grace are governed by charisma (not to mention up to this point the character has been a pure fighter and needs decent physical stats) a wisdom of 18 is unlikely. In addition, the Nar requires 10 ranks in knowledge (the planes) which no melee oriented classes get as class skill. It would be impossible to obtain 10 cross skill ranks until level 17 - meaning you'll have to take the education feat (from FRCS assuming you're allowed). Now then, feats: power attack, cleave, sunder for blackguard, education, iron will and spell focus for demonbinder. That's 6 feats. Spiked chain builds have their own lengthy feat requirements so combining the two is ulikely. Next - some solutions: take that 8th blackquard level so you only need a wisdom of 14 to qualify (much more manageable). This delays demonbinder by 1 level but if you're worried about a 20th level build you must as well worry about the 21st. Alternatively: Fallen Paladin 3 / Blackguard 10 / NarDemonder 7 works well. The last 2 fallen paladin levels aren't required so you could swap them for something else. This way you get to enjoy 13 unburdened levels before switching tracks. You don't have to worry about ranger levels or wasting 3 feats or having a relatively useless wisdom of 18 (the education feat is still required). Oh, since someone's bound to point it out - the Nard's class benefits aren't that great so expect to suggestion for Nard 1 / Spellcaster PrC 6 If this wasn't just a theoretical exercise, my last bit of advice is simply not to make builds that try to do too many things - you'll have more fun with a well defined party role. Most of the multiclassed nightmare builds you'll see on these boards that promise to make you good at everything break down on closer inspection.
PhaedrusXY 02-27-04, 12:55 AM	You could use an item to boost your Wisdom high enough to get the Blackguard spells at 7th. I do agree 100% about not taking all the actual Nar Demonbinder levels, though. I'd take a level of Spellsword, and then some other casting PrC. Which one doesn't really matter. I don't remember the prereqs of Spellsword. If they are too tough, just drop it and take something else that you already meet the prereqs for. If you plan on going unarmored, Mystic Wanderer would be great, to get your Cha mod to AC.
cellardweller 02-27-04, 01:02 AM	Originally posted by PhaedrusXY You could use an item to boost your Wisdom high enough to get the Blackguard spells at 7th. I do agree 100% about not taking all the actual Nar Demonbinder levels, though. I'd take a level of Spellsword, and then some other casting PrC. Which one doesn't really matter. I don't remember the prereqs of Spellsword. If they are too tough, just drop it and take something else that you already meet the prereqs for. If you plan on going unarmored, Mystic Wanderer would be great, to get your Cha mod to AC. Spellsword, like most of the f/m prc's that would suit this build requires 2nd or 3rd level arcane spells. You need to drop another point of bab in order to qualify ie class 6/BlkG7/Nar1/Contemplative or Divine diciple 1/Whatever X Knight of the Thorn fits best IMO. There was another topic a couple of weeks ago with a very similar build.
PhaedrusXY 02-27-04, 01:22 AM	cellardwellar, I can't believe you have a quote from Torquemada in your Sig. We play a game set in our DM's twisted fantasy version of Medieval Europe, and he's a prominent NPC. Does he have some signifigance to you, or something?
Stoned Golem 02-27-04, 02:00 AM	For a minor use of UA, the Planar Ranger can get you the Know (Planes), Speak Language (Abyssal) and Hide at the same time while keeping the +1 BAB going. Also, doesn't "To cast a blackguard spell, a blackguard must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell’s level" mean that a Blackguard would only need a Wis of 14 to meet the spellcasting prereqs for ND? When it comes to requiring 2nd or 3rd level spells, taking the Spell Preparation feat and using Corrupt spells from the BoVD is probably easier, more powerful, and more fitting than dropping a level on Contemplative. In terms of other PrCs, Dragonslayer works well if you're willing to completely disregard flavor. Iron Will is a shared prereq, and it gives you any weapon or armor profs you didn't happen to pick up along the way. I might even take it up to 3rd level for the DR and Ref save breakpoint if I could take the first level of ND by 13th level or earlier. In that case you'd run out of ND casting progression before 20th if you went straight +1 level classes, so why not make the most of Dragonslayer's BAB, HD, and abilities.
Masque 02-27-04, 02:01 AM	What book can I find the Fallen Paladin in? And I kinda figured that "educated" would have to be taken with this build, but being a human, the bonus feat will take care of that, and thats a sacrifice I'm willing to make. I'm reconsidering what to do with my weapon selection. You all made a good point that selecting spiked chain would take a lot away from my already limited feat selections. Maybe I'll just go the greatsword routine. Just the idea of some red-eyed, black-souled human wielding a merciless spiked chain and summoning demons to his side had far too many wheels turning in my head. -M
Mikal 02-27-04, 02:13 AM	Why would you need a wisdom of 18 for? Wisdom of 14 allows you to cast the level four spells. and even a point build charecter could get that by CL 13, with items and level ups, if needed.
cellardweller 02-27-04, 02:27 AM	Because 7th level blackguards get 0 4th level spells. You need a bonus slot from wis18 to actually cast any.
Auralynx 02-27-04, 02:55 AM	a) Fallen Paladin is just a regular Paladin who's broken the Paladin code and left the class, I assume. Unfortunately, you can't meet the Blackguard requirements at level 3, which is sort of a problem with that idea. b) Another way to make this work is Unholy Warrior 6/Blackguard 7/Nar Demonbinder 7 with Cosmopolitan (Hide). Unholy Warrior is from Green Ronin Press's Unholy Warrior's Handbook, which is a rather entertaining piece of work. They get Knowledge (Planes) as a class skill, which gets the difficult part of the Nar Demonbinder requirement out of the way. Doesn't really help with the stat issues, though. Planar Ranger would be just as good, if a little weird.
PhaedrusXY 02-27-04, 02:59 AM	A Fallen Palladin is just a Palladin who's done something to lose his status as a Palladin. If you are a palladin initially, but fall to evil and become a blackguard, you gain extra powers that other blackguards never get. Look at the Blackguard description, it talks about this there. You would basically level up to 12th as a palladin, then take blackguard for your next level. You can then "trade in" ex-palladin levels for blackguard levels. I do agree that this would be the coolest Blackguard/Demonbinder, but you'll miss out on the bonus feats from fighter levels. Edit: Here's what that would look like: Palladin 1-11 1 Education, Power Attack 3 Cleave 6 Improved Sunder 9 Iron Will 12 Blackguard1-convert 10 Palladin levels to Blackguard levels Spell Focus: Conjuration You're now a FallenPalladin2/Blackguard10 (You can't go below this many palladin levels, or you can't convert them) 13 NarDemonbinder1 14-20 PrCs of your choice Eldritch Knight would be a nice, flavorless one with the prereqs already filled. :) It would also get your full caster progression for Nar Demonbinder at level 20, with only the loss of a single point of BAB. You could use your feats from this point on to focus on combat feats, but I'd take Augment Summoning at least, since that's what the Nar Demonbinder is all about, and you already have the prereq. Divine Might would be another choice, as well as Arcane Strike. If you add one more Palladin level before converting, you get a Lay on Hands ability that you can use only on yourself or your demonic familiar.
Masque 02-27-04, 03:30 AM	Heh, k, now I feel silly asking about the Fallen Paladin... I thought you guys were refering to some class/PrC I wasn't aware of. Thanks for the feed back so far folks. Ya'll rock. :thumbsup: -M
catharz 02-27-04, 04:15 AM	Ex-P 1/Blk 10/ND 2 is probably the best 'base'. At 15th level, take the feat 'Bloodline of evil,' from Dragon 311. Divine might is another must-have feat. A level of War mage [Age of mortals] is a great way to get Cha to AC (neccesary IMO, as you can't wear much armor). Mystic wanderer or Arcane duelist work otherwise. Spellsword is, of course, a no-brainer. Acolyte of the Skin is also pretty good, especially as a small dip (maybe three levels pre-epic, one level post--Remember that once you hit epic you swap the last Paladin level, so the BAB for the fourth level counts. Tricky :smirk:). Arcane trickster is good, but the poor BAB precludes using it for many levels. You definately want BAB+16, so keep that in mind. I'm not entirely certain that this is legal, but Ex-P 1/Blk 10/ND 2/WM 1/AotS 3/Sps 1/Master of Shrouds 2 would be nice, although it delays your ND casting into the epic levels. A more simple approach would be Ex-P 1/Blk 10/ND 6/Sps 1/MoS 2. This is caster level 20 at 20, not bad. Again, I'm not certain that you qualify for MoS, but I *think* you do...
Laelenie 02-27-04, 04:49 AM	Originally posted by catharz Ex-P 1/Blk 10/ND 2 is probably the best 'base'. you can't get this. Ex pal 2/ black 10 is the best you can get.
catharz 02-27-04, 07:48 AM	Originally posted by Laelenie you can't get this. Ex pal 2/ black 10 is the best you can get. Huh??????
PhaedrusXY 02-27-04, 09:42 AM	Read the blackguard description, and then actually try planning one out level by level. You can't swap ANY palladin levels unless you have 11 of them, and you have to take at least one level of Blackguard FIRST, before you can swap any. So you level up 1-11 in Palladin, then take 1 level of BG. Now you're a Ex-Pall11/BG1. You can only take BG up to level 10 Pre-Epic, so you swap out 9 Pallidin levels. Now you're a Pal2/BG10. That is the best you can do Pre-epic. You can't go Ex-Pal1/BG10.
Funny Slaughter 02-27-04, 09:49 AM	i think a build with ex-paladin is as unplayable as you can get. if you start at 13th level or something: fine. otherway you have to play a LG paladin for a dozen levels and, just by accident, switch over to blackguard at a certain point. in my opinion only the DM can give opportunity for a paladin to lose his faith and become a blackguard, it is nothing any paladin would do just for fun... if you use the silly divine-grace-stacks rule hexblade is the best base imo. fighter takes care for feats. hexblade synergizes well with the aura of despair also. gs Funny
Snow Savant 02-27-04, 01:37 PM	The Melee Demonbinder does indeed need some high stats. Only if you intend on entering it based on a tertiary spellcasters (Paladin, Blackguard, Templar, etc.) 4th level spells having a "0" in its castings per day [meaning you need bonus 4th level spells or an "18" in that spellcasting stat]. Ninja3 / Hexblade2 / Fighter1 makes a great prefix for a Blackguard. The Paladin/Blackguard conversion is also viable (as mentioned earlier). Templar is a great class to enter into Demonbinder as well. Pal4 / Ftr1 / Templar8 / NarDemonbinder1 / XXX6 XXX6 could be any combination of levels of PrC's such as Sacred Exorcist (very nice!), EK, Spellsword, Geomancer, Dragonslayer, DivineOracle (PrD domain and Evasion!), etc. Just be sure to find a BAB level of +16 to +19 that appeals to you the most. Notice I chose Templar-8 instead of Templar-7? A WIS of 18 is just too much to expect in a build of this structure. Hoep this helps! XO, Snow :cloud9:
Stoned Golem 02-27-04, 02:40 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter i think a build with ex-paladin is as unplayable as you can get. if you start at 13th level or something: fine. otherway you have to play a LG paladin for a dozen levels and, just by accident, switch over to blackguard at a certain point. Sign of Impending Trouble #217: When the Paladin takes Sunder.:rolleyes:
nihility 02-27-04, 02:45 PM	Originally posted by Stoned Golem Sign of Impending Trouble #217: When the Paladin takes Sunder.:rolleyes: Reminds me of this Penny Arcade. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-07-23&res=l) Does your Paladin seem to be taking on a grey, corpse-like complexion? Does she occasionally mutter "kill you all" under her breath, or speak of grinding his horse into sausage? If so, you might have a Blackguard on your hands. Makes me feel sorry for the Paladin who takes Improved Sunder just because it seems useful.
Gharlane 02-28-04, 03:38 AM	Snow Savant, Neither Templar's nor Paladin's can cast summon monster spells, a prerequisite for becoming a NarDemonbinder. Thus, your Pal4 / Ftr1 / Templar8 / NarDemonbinder1 / XXX6 does not work in its current form. The simplest solution would be to substitute in a cleric level or 2 - perhaps Pal 3 / Cleric 3 / Templar 8 / Nardemonbinder 2 / XXX 4. The 2nd NarD level is just to gain an additional BAB. The 3 cleric levels result in onlyone lost point of BAB and they make the education feat uneccesary since cleric has knowledge(the planes) as a class skill. I do agree that the XXX 4 would probably be best spent as a sacred exorcist, the PrC being thematically similar to the NarD (not to mention sharing the high planar knowledge requirements). Funny Slaughter, Switching alignments at level thirteen seems about as realistic as melee oriented character suddenly becoming a spell caster. If a character can plan a build in adance and fabricate the appropriate roleplaying reasons for his multiclassing shinanigans, I see no reason why he can't preplan switching alignments.
Funny Slaughter 02-28-04, 03:56 AM	Switching alignments at level thirteen seems about as realistic as melee oriented character suddenly becoming a spell caster. If a character can plan a build in adance and fabricate the appropriate roleplaying reasons for his multiclassing shinanigans, I see no reason why he can't preplan switching alignments. adapting a PrC at a certain moment is something that has to be roleplayed, and, depending on the DM, is (not) possible. but if you have a LG paladin and want him to become a divine champion there are no restrctions about your character having this goal and working towards it. getting bigger devotion to your god and feeling that you are chosen is nothing bad for a paladin. in my opinion this is entirely different from doing something against the base of your being. i can create the opportunity to become a templar in-game as a paladin and even without metagaming, but i have no clue how a paladin should work towards becoming a blackguard. gs Funny
PhaedrusXY 02-28-04, 06:46 AM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter i can create the opportunity to become a templar in-game as a paladin and even without metagaming, but i have no clue how a paladin should work towards becoming a blackguard. gs Funny Even though the guy can't act his way out of a paper bag, watch Star Wars Episode 2. It's basically the beginning of Anakin's fall into the Dark Side and becoming Darth Vader. I'm sure there is more to come when the next one comes out. It seems like a decent example of how someone devoted to helping others becomes evil. A friend of mine played a palladin who wound up plane-hopping from a world with Greyhawk Deities to Forgotten Realms. He didn't know anything about different planes, and wondered why his god had stopped answering his prayers and giving him his powers. He also got into some bad situations there with his party members (one was a Shadow Adept wizard who'd been responsible for his going to this new world). Eventually, frustrated and at the breaking point, he was beaten down in a fight and dying, and a voice appeared in his head telling him that if he'd accept Bane as his new Lord, then he'd be saved and given the power to strike down his enemies. Desparate, frustrated, dying, and not really even knowing who Bane was, he said yes. He died, but immediately rose as a Deathknight with most of his former palladin levels turned into Blackguard levels. It had all been planned from a fairly early level with the DM. The game started out low level and fairly normal, but then they had all decided they wanted to play an evil game, so the palladin became a Deathknight and that's how they roleplayed it out.
Laelenie 02-28-04, 07:26 AM	now you can play a paladin od tyranny from UA from the start and then switch to blackguard with no alignment issues.
Snow Savant 02-28-04, 09:21 AM	Regarding the Templar Demonbinder, just do this: Ftr1 / Pal4 / Templar7 / Contemplative1 / NarDemonbinder1 / XXX6 Now you get the Summon Monster spell capability with Templar. And since you have a summoning angle with NarD anyway, the additional hang-time of your summons is appreciated anyway.
Balthanon 02-28-04, 09:25 AM	Originally posted by Laelenie now you can play a paladin od tyranny from UA from the start and then switch to blackguard with no alignment issues. That's not going to work--or at least I can't see a DM actually falling for it. The reason former paladin's gain their powers is because of their fall from grace. They're the epitome of goodness and light, and the dark powers that create blackguards like seeing them corrupted. If the "paladin" is already evil, the powers that be aren't going to care if it goes a little farther down the path. (This is assuming a paladin of tyranny is lawful evil, I don't have UA yet.) As for making a paladin with the intention of switching alignments down the line, it's obviously going to be a lot easier if you can just write it as backstory, but I think it could be done during a game as well. One of the characters I made awhile back was an attempt to get into demonologist while sacrificing as little as possible and I decided to go fallen blackguard/nar demonbinder/demonologist. One of the problems I ran into was that I couldn't fit the vile/evil feats in the levels after the fall. I eventually concocted a story that basically had a demon hounding the paladin. The demon marked the paladin as his own (Evil Brand) and promised his aid, whispering the secrets of great power in the paladins ear (Malign Spell Focus). Until he fell, neither of these feats did anything, the first because he couldn't use a vile feat and the second because he wouldn't cast evil spells. But, to get back on topic, I think writing a corrupting influence into your background is one way of presaging a fall believably. A paladin has a great deal of will power, and if he takes the demon/devil/whatever's presence as a test of his faith, it's conceivable that it could stay with him for many years as he levels up from 1 to whenever the fall is planned. If he believes that he's the one that must drive it away, then he's not necessarily going to go for outside help (and his own efforts aren't likely to amount to much)--and a demon could easily be able to bluff a low level paladin into believing something like that even if its not true. It's going to take a lot more effort to do this in game than in a backstory, but if the DM is willing to play along then I think its possible.
Masque 02-28-04, 02:45 PM	Muahaha, evil is so much fun. Thanks all for the build tips, and the few char back-stories as well. Ya'll folks are great with the help :) -M